Best unarmed class at doing what?
Define better. Ability to do the most damage? Ability to reflect or absorb the most damage? Ability to look cool in a kimono or other robes? What exactly defines "better?"
Edit: Ninja'ed by someone quite. D'oh!
So, all-around melee combat? Or are we talking best offensive damage output with consistent hitting?
I build tanks and mobile strikers very differently.
Define combat.
I could do this all night. :P
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So, all-around melee combat? Or are we talking best offensive damage output with consistent hitting?
I build tanks and mobile strikers very difference.
Well I know the Monk has really great movement but too be honest I think the movement part is a little overkill. I be really anywhere I need to be on the battlefield with 30 to 40 movement.
I would say damage output and defense. I know a Monk can have an outrageous AC but that can be overkill as well.
So who's better at standing in spot and smashing it out in melee with their fists?
Fighter. It's their gig. You might be able to close the distance a little with the Martial Artist archetype and heaviy investing in damage output feats, but it's going to be hard to beat a Brawler fighter in heavy armor.
Personal opinion; Fighter. With feats, archtypes, feats, weapon group bonuses, feats, armor training, and feats; the fighter can overpower a monk. WHile the monk is flashier with some interesting archtypes that allow you to make someone friendly for 20+ days just by touching them. In terms of damage output and defensive abilities, the fighter wins in my book.
Sounds like another thread I've been in lately.
For just sheer take it and dish it combat ability, the fighter is going to win in the long run, since limited resources to fuel class abilities aren't really an issue for them, and depending on what archetype you go with, they can get rather ridiculous.
For versatility and utility in something other than just straight up fights, I'd say its about even. Monk has some neat tricks, throw in some of the monk archetypes and that goes through the roof.
This is assuming no 3pp stuff is being considered, some of the 3pp options for monks can radically change the math, enough to bring it up to player choice and skill IMO.
It's not actually a big difference between Monk and Fighter for feats.
A Fighter gains 21 Feats over the course of 20 Levels.
A Monk gains 18 Feats. If you count the "feats" gained from flurry it's 22(they effectively get Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Double Slice.)
As for the rest the Fighter will pull ahead in attack and damage.(It's kinda their thing.) While the Monk gains a number of abilities.(Evasion, Fast Movement, Ki Pool, etc.)
Hm, well assuming the fighter is taking the brawler archetype (monk has a lot of options, but let's just say they're going vanilla), then the fighter can probably win in terms of raw damage output. Of course, that's not everything.
Anyway, they're pretty similar when full attacking, assuming the fighter uses his bonus feats for Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice. The fighter, however, gets weapon training and access to Weapon Specialization, so let's so what that does, and also a butload to hit from weapon training, and GWF, which let's him power attack almost constantly. In terms of damage output the monk can use a point of ki for an extra attack, gets higher fist dice, and I guess they have more uses/damage with Elemental Fist (assuming Dragon Ferocity or Monk of the Four Winds). This doesn't let them reach fighter levels of damage, however, they still have their uses.
The monk has high base saves for everything, an extra +2 against enchantments, and has an incentive to invest in wisdom. This makes them less prone to being out of a fight before it can even begin. Evasion also helps them in the long run if you often get pelted with magic spells. Stunning Fist is also a fairly useful trick that the monk gets earlier than the fighter (and gets more uses of). The extra conditions they get with Stunning Fist don't really come up often in my experiences, but I can see them being useful... very occasionally. Defensively, the AC bonuses can get fairly high, and most of it usually ends up being touch, which can help against some attacks. They also have the +4 AC option with their ki pool. That's not saying fighters can't have high AC, but I don't think the Brawler archetype is really good for that kind of build.
I've played with both, and I think they're about equal. Of course, monks can end up being completely different with certain archetypes, and I don't have enough experience with any of them to form any opinions on their unarmed effectiveness.
IMHO, the only real advantage the monk has over the unarmed fighter is its saves. That and better skills selection.
The monk can have a goood offense or good defense, but is unlikely to have both.
My suggestion? Make it a Monk 2 (Master of Many Styles)/Fighter 18 (Unarmed Fighter). Use gauntlets and armor spikes. They are nearly the same as fighting unarmed, only better.
If the goal is to stand and deliver I will go with the fighter.
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To my knowledge, the best 'unarmed striker' in the game is probably the Barbarian (maybe summoner synthesist...and alchemist also has a chance of competing as well).
A barbarian has his rage, raging brutality (which is purely sick), gets natural attacks through rage powers, gets better saves then the fighter (and arguably better saves then the monk if built correctly), AND has pounce.
Duskblade has a point.
I was going to object Duskblade's point, until he mentioned pounce. There he wins the argument. Pounce breaks it for the barbarian, compared to the brawling fighter.
Synthesist can get pound too, but I'm not sure a quadrupedal synthesthist count as "unarmed fighting". If so, then a wildshaping druid or melee dragon disciple with dragon form can also compete.
Unarmed Strike =/= Natural Weapon, for the context of this argument.
I would still think that raging brutality alone would win out for the barbarian (regardless of pounce). I mean, weapon specialization and the 'weapon training' thing for the brawler all add raw damage (+11 raw damage if I'm not mistaken). Both can get natural attacks, and both can get all the primary feats needed for such a build.
There's only a few subtle differences:
1) Barbarian's Ac will be lower, but if he adds things like 'witch hunter' and reckless abandon, you really are getting a lot of guaranteed damage (especially since reckless abandon negates the power attack penalty).
2) As I mentioned in a previous thread, if you can afford it, aim for a +3 amulet of mighty fists with the courageous and furious properties, and then get the 'desperate battler' feat for all kinds of insane damage and accuracy.
3) Raging brutality and raging vitality feats also work in the barbarian's favor (giving him more hp than a fighter and insane amount of damage.
I will say though, if the barbarian can't rage (either by being fatigued, exhausted, or simply out of rage for the day), the fighter will do better. But as long as the barbarian can rage, I'm pretty sure the barbarian wins.
IMHO, the only real advantage the monk has over the unarmed fighter is its saves. That and better skills selection.
The monk can have a goood offense or good defense, but is unlikely to have both.
My suggestion? Make it a Monk 2 (Master of Many Styles)/Fighter 18 (Unarmed Fighter). Use gauntlets and armor spikes. They are nearly the same as fighting unarmed, only better.
I agree, this is the best unarmed fighter otpion. Barbarian is very good as well.
Gonna come down in some ways to play style. Barbarian and fighter can do more damage, hands down.
In games where the DM doesn't push the parties resources to the limit, odds are the barbarian will never be out of rage rounds and so he gets all his rage tricks no problem. So if move+full attack is a big deal, barbarian gets that's from class abilities, and; n a game like that the barbarian can get ugly.
In games where resources are used and pushed to the limit, the fighter will have better consistency. His damage isn't all that reliant on limited use abilities/items. He won't get off as many full attacks as the raging pouncing barbarian, but even so his damage curve is less spikey.
That's all just in combat though, and honestly, what level your talking about can and will alter that a lot. Out of combat, the monk and barbarian will typically a have more utility than the fighter, due to a better skill point pool and skill selection.
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I was going to object Duskblade's point, until he mentioned pounce. There he wins the argument. Pounce breaks it for the barbarian, compared to the brawling fighter.
Just for the sake of argue a will say that pounce is not that decisive when comparing a unarmed barbarian and the unarmed fighter. I mean pounce is always great and definitely make the barbarian better damage dealer but it is not like the unarmed fighter do not have his tricks. at level 10 the unarmed fighter could do
1) move
3) attemp a trip maneuver
4) make a free dirty trick maneuver (if trip succed)
5) make two AoO (Greater trip, vicious stomp)(if trip succed)
screw unarmed fighter, mobile fighter is much better then a pouncing barbarian. at level 11 they gain "pounce" with ranged weapons as well as melee.
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unless the moobile fighter trhow his fist i do not see how this is relevant to the thread.
ok so if anyone adds in ANYTHING in adition to the topic at hand the entire point is disreguarded by you, good to know.
let me rephrase it so you dont get confused by that little "this is also cool" that i added in.
a mobile fighter can make a full attack after moving minus 1 attack, putting him on par with a pouncing barbarian when moving.
now do you see how its relivent?
That is not on par. It is step below. I am not saying that ability is not useful, but it is not on the same level.
The mobile fighter is limited to a the distance he can single move, and he loses the attack with the highest BAB.
The barbarian can still move a distance equal to a double move, and gets all of his attacks in.
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Now for an archer this ability is really good since if an archer has to move he normally only gets one attack, but with manyshot he still gets two arrows off with the first attack. <---I do have to thank you for this sidekick. Until you brought it up I was mentally restricting this to melee attack.