Looking for Cleric / Champion MC advice

[Lunchbox3000]

I wan to build a Cleric(Cloistered) of Gozreh. I am most likely the tank and healer and this will require me to survive level 1. My thoughts lean to Iruxi as an Iruxi climbing out of the water with trident and shield in hand seems very fitting. My question is how would you guys build this? Would it be viable? The rest of the part will be Monk, Sorcerer, and Ranger.

[K1]

Lvl 1 is not that hard. You will simply go down if they happen to crit or hit you too much.

Remember that being a healer and a tank is pretty hard because of aoo which disrupting your actions.

Remember also that in this version tanks are used to be hit. They can mostly work towards not being critted than not being hit.

Better focus on healing an let melee to take dmg. Eventually you could use your champion reaction too. But if you have to heal stay back.

[Lunchbox3000]

K1 wrote:

Lvl 1 is not that hard. You will simply go down if they happen to crit or hit you too much.

Remember that being a healer and a tank is pretty hard because of aoo which disrupting your actions.

Remember also that in this version tanks are used to be hit. They can mostly work towards not being critted than not being hit.

Better focus on healing an let melee to take dmg. Eventually you could use your champion reaction too. But if you have to heal stay back.

See I have heard numerous things going back and forth trying to come up with what I want to play. The party's only melee guy before me is the monk. The Ranger intends to stand back and shoot. The sorcerer is planning on being a Hag

[Taja the Barbarian]

K1 wrote:

Lvl 1 is not that hard. You will simply go down if they happen to crit or hit you too much.

Remember that being a healer and a tank is pretty hard because of aoo which disrupting your actions.

Remember also that in this version tanks are used to be hit. They can mostly work towards not being critted than not being hit.

Better focus on healing an let melee to take dmg. Eventually you could use your champion reaction too. But if you have to heal stay back.

As a cloistered cleric, he'd get neither armor proficiency nor shield block at first level, which means he's probably going to take way too much damage (remember, only the Warpriest Cleric Doctrine gets these features).

[K1]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

K1 wrote:

Lvl 1 is not that hard. You will simply go down if they happen to crit or hit you too much.

Remember that being a healer and a tank is pretty hard because of aoo which disrupting your actions.

Remember also that in this version tanks are used to be hit. They can mostly work towards not being critted than not being hit.

Better focus on healing an let melee to take dmg. Eventually you could use your champion reaction too. But if you have to heal stay back.

As a cloistered cleric, he'd get neither armor proficiency nor shield block at first level, which means he's probably going to take way too much damage (remember, only the Warpriest Cleric Doctrine gets these features).

That's the reason he simply has to accept going down.

I went down as champion, with shield equipped and block.

However, the monk is a good frontline.

Just remember that you have 3 actions per round and that raise shield costs 1, and heal 2 ( you will be using heal rank 2 unless wasting a lvl 1 spell ).

And if you don’t fight back the enemies will simply leave you to deal with those who deal dmg.

[Lunchbox3000]

This is true. Hence the I have to survive past 1st to get me some armor from Champion

My other thoughts were maybe going with a fighter, champ, or barb. Truth be told I am very undecided and I am glad I have two weeks till session 0

[tivadar27]

I'd been looking into a similar build either with a leshy or goblin, so I might have some help:
1. Regarding 1st level, consider just wearing heavy armor without the proficiency. That's an AC of 15 or 16 (if you can afford full plate at some point) plus shield, which is going to be better than unarmored with your terrible dexterity.
2. My cleric was looking to be a blaster and follow Sarenrae. Turns out Fire Ray is some of the best damage in the game when it comes to 1st level scaling spells, 2d6 + 2d6 per spell level, with a ton of persistent fire on a critical. Not saying you should go that way, but definitely look into touch spells, as they target AC and can benefit from flanking. If you go this route, also consider MC Sorcerer for Dangerous Sorcery. It'll boost your Lightning Bolt Damage and you'll meet the requirements already if you've taken champion.
3. What feats are you thinking of from champion? My thought was Lay on Hands for the extra FP/additional healing and Champion's Reaction (NG) for a good reaction to prevent damage.
4. Think about your action economy. Most spells are 2 actions to cast and raising a shield takes an additional action (unless you can squeeze in Reactive Shield). That doesn't really give you much flexibility in terms of moving and whatnot.

I think that's about it. If you have additional ideas/thoughts, I'd be curious to hear them.

[Lunchbox3000]

tivadar27 wrote:

I'd been looking into a similar build either with a leshy or goblin, so I might have some help:

1. Regarding 1st level, consider just wearing heavy armor without the proficiency. That's an AC of 15 or 16 (if you can afford full plate at some point) plus shield, which is going to be better than unarmored with your terrible dexterity.
2. My cleric was looking to be a blaster and follow Sarenrae. Turns out Fire Ray is some of the best damage in the game when it comes to 1st level scaling spells, 2d6 + 2d6 per spell level, with a ton of persistent fire on a critical. Not saying you should go that way, but definitely look into touch spells, as they target AC and can benefit from flanking. If you go this route, also consider MC Sorcerer for Dangerous Sorcery. It'll boost your Lightning Bolt Damage and you'll meet the requirements already if you've taken champion.
3. What feats are you thinking of from champion? My thought was Lay on Hands for the extra FP/additional healing and Champion's Reaction (NG) for a good reaction to prevent damage.
4. Think about your action economy. Most spells are 2 actions to cast and raising a shield takes an additional action (unless you can squeeze in Reactive Shield). That doesn't really give you much flexibility in terms of moving and whatnot.

I think that's about it. If you have additional ideas/thoughts, I'd be curious to hear them.

I am still trying to figure this all out. To be honest I do not know much about each class yet. Really I am in the planning stages and intend for my healing mostly to be out of combat as I believe things should be killed fast and then out of combat do the fixing of people. My first thought was Monk it was the first thing that sold me until I found that the person joining our group who had never play any rpg wanted to try monk. Thats when I was trying to think of something fun to play that could tank as the group really lacks them. I have not read the book completely. I have just read most of the adventuring/combat chapter. I have been skimming characters for ideas. My main thought was to be a frontliner to help the squishies. My typical characters tend to be casters/skill guys. Someone had suggested me taking cleric then MCing champion and I thought it might work. Skimming through abilities and such pointed m to Gozreh and I pictured a trident wielding lizardfolk.

I hope thats not too much rambling. I just wanted to give you an idea of how I came here. Sadly I do my characters backwards to most people I find cool mechanics then make it. In this I don't know the mechanics so well just trying to find a good fit for the party.

[K1]

Remember also that a monk could be self sufficient with wholeness of body.

And also that reducing dmg is somehow good as healing.

Remember also that during rests you could full heal your party with medicine checks.

That only to say that an healer is not necessarily needed, and a supporter, given the fact the monk has high defense and will take a self heal and the fact you have 2 ranged character, could also do the job.

Finally, the caster you bring down enemies, the better.

By bringing down enemies you won't need that much heals.

I suggwst you to consider a dps class instead, or simply what do you want to play.

[Taja the Barbarian]

K1 wrote:

Remember also that a monk could be self sufficient with wholeness of body.

And also that reducing dmg is somehow good as healing.

Remember also that during rests you could full heal your party with medicine checks.

That only to say that an healer is not necessarily needed, and a supporter, given the fact the monk has high defense and will take a self heal and the fact you have 2 ranged character, could also do the job.

Finally, the caster you bring down enemies, the better.

By bringing down enemies you won't need that much heals.

I suggwst you to consider a dps class instead, or simply what do you want to play.

I'd actually consider a healer to be fairly important: At low levels at least, it's really easy for characters to go down before they even get a chance to act in this edition (Stride + two attacks is really bad if your GM's dice are 'hot' that day).

[K1]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

K1 wrote:

Remember also that a monk could be self sufficient with wholeness of body.

And also that reducing dmg is somehow good as healing.

Remember also that during rests you could full heal your party with medicine checks.

That only to say that an healer is not necessarily needed, and a supporter, given the fact the monk has high defense and will take a self heal and the fact you have 2 ranged character, could also do the job.

Finally, the caster you bring down enemies, the better.

By bringing down enemies you won't need that much heals.

I suggwst you to consider a dps class instead, or simply what do you want to play.

I'd actually consider a healer to be fairly important: At low levels at least, it's really easy for characters to go down before they even get a chance to act in this edition (Stride + two attacks is really bad if your GM's dice are 'hot' that day).

That can be true.

Rnjesus is unpredictable.

But once you survive you are done.

I mean, forcing yourself to play what you don't want because of the earlier lvls could not be right choice.

A champion could deal with his reaction on an ally. It wouldn't be a heal indeed, but a very nice trade. Lay on hand too is good at low lvls.

Eventually, he could help himself with shield block with many classes.

Or even battle medicine could be a nice utility. And if you go deep in medicine you will find a large amount of nice feats.

I tried at first to be a champion healer supporter, then I come to realize that my 3 actions were few, and removed the one for shield raise, only 2 left.

Also as I previously said, it is better to end a fight 1 or 2 rounds before. So dps is mostly the right choice, even if sometimes healings shine way way over.

[Lunchbox3000]

I really appreciate the feedback. I typically play caster or skill characters in games but I like a good DPS monstrosity every once in a while. Of the fighter/champion/barb, my big consideration was maybe doing a Giant Instinct Barbarian. Although Fury doesn't look far behind in damage. Maybe I need someone to point me at a cool story element or something that I might lean on to help influence a character.

[tivadar27]

I'd really advise shying away from strictly looking at DPS in this edition. Doing good damage is important, but the differences in damage for a lot of the classes are in the margins, and other aspects like good defenses and utility really do matter.

Granted, disclaimer, this is my personal opinion. Particularly for barbarians, I'll probably shy away from Giant Instinct. On paper, it'll do more damage than the rest, but in a real fight, I think you're going to wind up unconscious a lot more than Animal Instinct who can use a shield, not gain clumsy, and also still do 1d12. Turns out characters don't deal damage while unconscious :-P.

[K1]

Lunchbox3000 wrote:

I really appreciate the feedback. I typically play caster or skill characters in games but I like a good DPS monstrosity every once in a while. Of the fighter/champion/barb, my big consideration was maybe doing a Giant Instinct Barbarian. Although Fury doesn't look far behind in damage. Maybe I need someone to point me at a cool story element or something that I might lean on to help influence a character.

I suggest you to consider talking with your mates and decide 1 or eventually 2 player with medicine skill.

This will help you with the short or long rests.

About damage everything is fine.

I suggest you to give a shot to the dragon barbarian with very balanced stats.

This will give you almost everything.

1) a good aoe like con of cold or a lightning Bolt.

2) elemental dmg attacks ( even if sometimes you will be forced not to use em, because of the monster resistances )

Consider also the possibility to take a class dedication, which could enhance or change your gameplay.

[Hiruma Kai]

If you're looking to melee front line while providing out of combat healing and tanking, just go champion as primary. The class is basically designed to all 3 and does each reasonably well.

You get standard martial weapons plus combat focused feats, your armor class will be best in the game, and you give enemies a reason to go after you instead of the other characters through champion's reaction so you can actually "tank".

Since champions get lay on hands as a focus spell, you can basically use lay on hands, refocus for 10 minutes, lay on hands, focus for 10 minutes and so on. So unlimited out of combat healing even without the medicine skill, from level 1.

A trident wielding lizard folk champion of Gozreh sounds pretty cool to be honest. If you want more damage output, go for LG deity to grab the reaction which lets you attack when someone else gets hit. Or MC into barb for some rage, fighter for some more offensive feats or rogue for precision damage.

[Lunchbox3000]

@K1
We do intend to do a zero session to build/finalize any character ideas and mesh them into the story
@Hiruma Kai
Put that way it sounds simple and almost obvious. I am intrigued by the lizard folk. Any suggestions on building him out? Is there a good region or area he should probably be from?

[K1]

Lunchbox3000 wrote:

@K1

We do intend to do a zero session to build/finalize any character ideas and mesh them into the story

Good.

I also suggest you to check how medicine works ( and how it can be Enhanced with skill feats )

https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=9

Here you can find medicine checks, and on the feats page all the skill feats

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx

I know I am pressing too much on medicine, but in this 2e is way to important since it would be the main ability during short rests.

Finally, here's the lizardfolk ancestry page

https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=15

[Lunchbox3000]

K1 wrote:

Lunchbox3000 wrote:

@K1

We do intend to do a zero session to build/finalize any character ideas and mesh them into the story

Good.

I also suggest you to check how medicine works ( and how it can be Enhanced with skill feats )

https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=9

Here you can find medicine checks, and on the feats page all the skill feats

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx

I know I am pressing too much on medicine, but in this 2e is way to important since it would be the main ability during short rests.

Finally, here's the lizardfolk ancestry page

https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=15

Thanks will definitely read through those.

I have been watching some oblivion oath and a little bit of knights of everflame and I have seen what medicine can do for you. I think I will just stick with core champion unless someone feels it is more worth it to MC and can help explain.

Wetland Iruxi Champion of Gozreh. Wielding trident and shield. Any tips or suggestions I should be cognizant of whilst building the character/leveling?

[K1]

First of all you have to decide your cause.

After that, your divine ally ( you will take it by lvl 3 ).

I tend do see the causes mostly bonded with a specific ally

Paladin > divine blade
Redeemer > divine shield
Liberaror > divine steed

I suggest you to avoid dedications, since you will have good stuff at any lvl.

After you decide cause and ally, we all could provvide you more specific suggestions.

[Lunchbox3000]

Gozreh's only good alignment is neutral. I believe this forces me into Redeemer. For divine ally my thoughts are to choose blade. I think this is really good as in a pinch I can throw the javelin.

[K1]

Lunchbox3000 wrote:

Gozreh's only good alignment is neutral. I believe this forces me into Redeemer. For divine ally my thoughts are to choose blade. I think this is really good as in a pinch I can throw the javelin.

Could be a good choice.

The returning rune will let you able to have a returning weapon since lvl 3.

On the other hand, about the javelin

Quote:

This thin spear is well balanced for throwing but is not designed for melee use.

But I guess you meant the trident, as you stated before ( just wanted to be sure you intended to use the trident and not the javelin ).

I suggest you then

Lvl 2 - dedication ( for skills and maybe something else. Barbarian is cool for the rage too ) or divine Grace for saving vs spells ( but not magical effects ).

Lvl 4 - aura of courage is the best feat here. Some enemies has far aura which gives you frightened 1 on success and 2 on failure ( with aura of courage you instantly reduce the condition by 1 )

Lvl6 - smite evil, because of the extra dmg and good dmg ( pun intended ).

Lvl8 - quick block is excellent. 1 extra reaction for shield block.

Lvl 10 - radiant blade

Lvl 12 - dunno

Lvl 14 - divine reflexes. Best talent. Extra reaction for your champion reaction.

Lvl 16 - Dunno

Lvl 18 - celestial form ( flying speed. But maybe could be too Gross to see a flying lizardman ).

Lvl 20 - radiant blade

[Lunchbox3000]

K1 wrote:

Lunchbox3000 wrote:

Gozreh's only good alignment is neutral. I believe this forces me into Redeemer. For divine ally my thoughts are to choose blade. I think this is really good as in a pinch I can throw the javelin.

Could be a good choice.

The returning rune will let you able to have a returning weapon since lvl 3.

On the other hand, about the javelin

Quote:

This thin spear is well balanced for throwing but is not designed for melee use.

But I guess you meant the trident, as you stated before ( just wanted to be sure you intended to use the trident and not the javelin ).

I suggest you then

Lvl 2 - dedication ( for skills and maybe something else. Barbarian is cool for the rage too ) or divine Grace for saving vs spells ( but not magical effects ).

Lvl 4 - aura of courage is the best feat here. Some enemies has far aura which gives you frightened 1 on success and 2 on failure ( with aura of courage you instantly reduce the condition by 1 )

Lvl6 - smite evil, because of the extra dmg and good dmg ( pun intended ).

Lvl8 - quick block is excellent. 1 extra reaction for shield block.

Lvl 10 - radiant blade

Lvl 12 - dunno

Lvl 14 - divine reflexes. Best talent. Extra reaction for your champion reaction.

Lvl 16 - Dunno

Lvl 18 - celestial form ( flying speed. But maybe could be too Gross to see a flying lizardman ).

Lvl 20 - radiant blade

Totally meant trident. I think this is close to how I did it up in pathbuilder. The champion feats I felt like I didn't have enough and then the skill feats kept coming but nothing struck me as get that except medicine ones.

[K1]

The issue is that you don't have a weapon which allows you to make athletics checks, so even increasing athletics could be useless.

I personally don't like lvl 10 and 20 blade feats. I only take it for the smite evil and instrument of Zeal feats.

As a human, with the multitalented feat i start a dedication by lvl 9, then at lvl 10 i take Basic spellcasting and by lvl 12 expert spellcasting.

I decided to go with arcane sorcerer due to my ChariSma and the existence of rings of wizardly.

By lvl 20 i will take master spellcasting.

Since lvl 12 with the ring i could be able to use haste 4xday, longstrider lvl 2 2x day and even 1 true strike per day.

By lvl 14 i could change the ring and have 5 haste per day.

Haste will allow you to make nice stuff

1 action - shield raise
2 action - divine smite
3 action - attack
4 action - attack

On enemy turn you could protect your friends and Debuff your enemy with Glimpse of Prot ( as s paladin I will have an extra attack instead ) and protect yourself with the shield.

By lvl 14 you will be able to use 2x Glimpse of protection.

With only 2 attacks per round you could probably forgo instrument of Zeal feat and go for something else.

Consider eventually to take barbarian dedication by lvl 2 with dragon instinct, forgo lvl 10 talent to take a Basic rage feat, and by lvl 12 take the dragon breath feat.

[Hiruma Kai]

I'm not so familiar with Golarian Lizardfolk lore.

As for stat spread, maybe something like: 18 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha.
Plan to grab heavy armor and shield. Eventually trident with returning rune from Divine Ally would be cool.

Some combos that stick out at me immediately:
12th level Divine Wall + 9th level Lizardfolk Terrain Advantage = Any enemy adjacent to you are flat footed to you.

Cliffscale Lizardfolk + Gecko's Grip + Divine Ally Returning Trident = Be 20 feat up a wall and throwing your trident at enemies

Deity's Domain (Nature - Vibrant Thorns) + Lay on Hands + Devoted Focus = 1d6 per spell level of damage back to attackers every fight

If you want water flavor, then the swim speed ancestry is probably good, and then going down Marsh runner, swift swimmer and terrain advantage seems good.

As for champion, if you're going Gozreh, your only option is NG, which means redeemer.

Here's two paths. A Vibrant Thorns build to damage enemies attacking you:

1st: Deity's Domain (Nature - Vibrant Thorns)
2nd: Divine Grace or Weight of Guilt
3rd: Divine Ally (Blade or in this case, trident, and add returning rune)
4th: Light of Revelation (mostly for the extra 1 focus - could retrain to this at 10th from something else like mercy)
6th: Smite Evil
8th Quick Block
9th Terrain Advantage
10th Devoted Focus (This lets you use both vibrant thorns and lay on hands per fight, which means a round of 5d6 thorns damage).
12th Divine Wall

A second path might focus on the travel domain:

1st: Deity's Domain (Travel - Agile Feet)
2nd: Divine Grace or Weight of Guilt
3rd: Divine Ally (Blade)
4th: Mercy
6th: Smite Evil
8th: Advanced Deity's Domain (Travel - Traveler's transit which lets you fly at 9th)
9th: Terrain Advantage
10th: Quick Block
12th: Divine Wall

[K1]

That terrain advantage combo is very good.

[Lunchbox3000]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

I'm not so familiar with Golarian Lizardfolk lore.

As for stat spread, maybe something like: 18 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha.
Plan to grab heavy armor and shield. Eventually trident with returning rune from Divine Ally would be cool.

Some combos that stick out at me immediately:
12th level Divine Wall + 9th level Lizardfolk Terrain Advantage = Any enemy adjacent to you are flat footed to you.

Cliffscale Lizardfolk + Gecko's Grip + Divine Ally Returning Trident = Be 20 feat up a wall and throwing your trident at enemies

Deity's Domain (Nature - Vibrant Thorns) + Lay on Hands + Devoted Focus = 1d6 per spell level of damage back to attackers every fight

If you want water flavor, then the swim speed ancestry is probably good, and then going down Marsh runner, swift swimmer and terrain advantage seems good.

As for champion, if you're going Gozreh, your only option is NG, which means redeemer.

Here's two paths. A Vibrant Thorns build to damage enemies attacking you:

1st: Deity's Domain (Nature - Vibrant Thorns)
2nd: Divine Grace or Weight of Guilt
3rd: Divine Ally (Blade or in this case, trident, and add returning rune)
4th: Light of Revelation (mostly for the extra 1 focus - could retrain to this at 10th from something else like mercy)
6th: Smite Evil
8th Quick Block
9th Terrain Advantage
10th Devoted Focus (This lets you use both vibrant thorns and lay on hands per fight, which means a round of 5d6 thorns damage).
12th Divine Wall

A second path might focus on the travel domain:

1st: Deity's Domain (Travel - Agile Feet)
2nd: Divine Grace or Weight of Guilt
3rd: Divine Ally (Blade)
4th: Mercy
6th: Smite Evil
8th: Advanced Deity's Domain (Travel - Traveler's transit which lets you fly at 9th)
9th: Terrain Advantage
10th: Quick Block
12th: Divine Wall

Thanks a lot for these. Can you explain the thorns bit for me? How do we get d6s? I thought some other thing needs cast in between or it's just 1 point. Then you mention it being 5d6.

[Hiruma Kai]

Lunchbox3000 wrote:

Thanks a lot for these. Can you explain the thorns bit for me? How do we get d6s? I thought some other thing needs cast in between or it's just 1 point.

Lay on hands is a 1 action postive spell, so it can trigger the thorns 1d6 per spell level effect for 1 round. At 10th level, devoted focus lets you do a casting of both every fight if you get 10 minutes between. Assuming you have max focus 2 or 3. You can do that at 10th, so 5th level spell, which implies 5 damage or 5d6 with positive spell.