All,
I hope this is the right forum to ask for campaign advice in the context of the Pathfinder system. We are running a game with 5 players total including GMs. I share GM duties with another player, so there are only 4 PCs active at any given time. The premise is that the PCs are all cursed as unwilling dimension hoppers. It never happens except when a player cant make it or when its time for a different GM to take over (and his character gets ported elsewhere).
I ran the intro adventures until level 2 that were setting independent. My friend ran the PCs up to level 4. He has tons of old Dungeon magazines to pull adventures from, and sets his loosely in the FR. However, now it is my turn to really run for a good stretch and I am a bit unsure what to do.
I kinda want an underground setting for my adventures. The party is level 4 with dwarf barbarian 4; an elf wiz 1 / inquisitor 3; halfling rogue 4 who does the charging sneak attack thing, and an occasional but often absent human ranger 4 (we keep player levels equal).
So, I personally like to run sandbox style games, but my dilemma is that I am more accustomed to Hero and GURPS as a GM in that I am not used to worlds where the power level scales up. I am also not as up on 3.x d&d/PF rules as I need to be, outside my comfort zone of the classes I prefer (Wizard). So while if this were a GURPS game, I could ad hoc / create a world on the fly, come up with stuff that makes sense in power level, know the rules, and create a good sandbox for player-driven stories. But the scale of Pathfinder is making me want to have some kind of setting that lets me still do a sandbox, maybe have some weird lopsided power-relations between societies due to me not being comfortable with power balance, etc, but have it cut off from a total "where do we go now" feel. Also, until I feel a bit better about power creep, crazy feats, etc, I kinda want to run a low magic game. Well, not low magic, but maybe the kind of game where magic is not commonly bought/sold at player convenience. So a self-contained sandbox would let me get used to taking things easy on difficukty unntil I see where issues may come up.
Anyway, so I was hoping for general advice, as well as a little system advice, as well as specific advice on not nibbling too much too soon. Advice on what cities/factions or competing cultures may exist underground, and how PCs may relate, well that would be nice too.
I dont know if this "underdark" would be in Golarion, Greyhawk, FR, or if it would not be referenced. I kinda envision a deep dwarven kingdom as a hub they may find and live in. Or not. What are other underground races that form kingdoms, territories,,etc, both evil, hostile, good, etc? I know the classics such as drow, derro, kou toa, mind flayers, various myconoids, aboleth, morlock types, durergar, etc. I might even ignore all these and make my own. Just looking for suggestions.
I also envision this underground sandbox as being isolated from the surface in the short and medium term. Maybe the surface lands are a desert, or are somewhere really nasty you dont want to go up to, such as the lands of Iuz, or worse. Long distance teleport magic probably wont work either.
I have an initial adventure prepped that ties into my earlier stories. And of course at times my friend will run and so we will be in another universe above ground. But going forward, I was just looking for conversation and advice as pertains to my aforementioned concerns.
Thanks!
P.S. Apologies for mobile device typos :)
Warning: Wall of Text ahead!
I'm currently running and designing a hex-crawl sandbox campaign, so I can share some of my experiences in case you find them useful.
In your case, I would begin by deciding if I want a true sandbox or if I could design it as a sort of megadungeon. While not really sandboxes, megadungeons share some of their characteristics (multiple avenues for exploration, clearly differentiated areas or "levels", living breathing societies often rivaling each other, etc...). I could see an underdark sandbox designed as a sort of megadungeon.
If you want a true sandbox, there are several things you need to bear in mind.
Scope: You need to decide the size of the campaign area and plan accordingly. Too small and they will have it explored in no time (especially if there are many parties adventuring simultaneously, like in my campaign). Too large and you will end up doing a lot of prep work for areas they will probably never visit. Also, you need to decide which range of levels do you want your campaign to support (even if you nerf teleportation and other similar magic, distance tends to change its meaning at higher levels).
Mapping: While I personally find hex-crawling the best system for a sandbox, you have to consider what suits better your needs, especially since you're doing an entirely subterranean "wilderness". The scale of the mapping is very important too, since it sets the amount of detail you're aiming to. A single hex (or square, if you prefer) usually contains a single entry/location, representing the most interesting thing in those X square miles. By deciding the size of the hexes you are deciding how far apart those interesting locales are.
Danger Level: A truly old-school sandbox would throw CR out of the window and would include the possibility of encountering creatures/challenges of wildly different danger levels. Personally, I prefer a “gradual” approach. When I created the regions in my campaign, I gave them an average EL, representing the EL of the most common encounters. Then I populated those regions with encounters within a range of one or two levels above or below that, and I designed encounter tables with those numbers in mind. I also created some locations considered “danger pockets” in every region. The region EL would increase the farther you get from the base town/city, so the players will get the feeling of ever-increasing danger, and it would allow them to explore without blindly stumbling into an unavoidable TPK. Note that it could still happen in my campaign, but only with a freak combination of rolls...
Give them reasons to explore: You really want to avoid the “where do we go now” feel you mentioned in your post, and you don’t want to force/persuade/railroad the players in any way. So they need incentives. Seed the campaign with all sorts of rumors, knowledge skill tables, legends, lost artifacts, things going on in the background, etc etc. An old trick is the “wanted posts”. It may sound trite, but I’ve used it in my campaign to great effect to get them started at 1st level, give them some quick and easy goals. Once they step out of the tavern and set foot on the wide world, they will find plenty of reasons to explore on their own. The thing is to avoid them wandering aimlessly, boringly filling hexes without rhyme or reason.
Random Tables: Your best friends. They are often frowned upon by the current generation of gamers, but I find them invaluable when running a sandbox. For me, they fill the details that you are not prepping but that solve the "empty hex" syndrome. Random tables not only dictate monster encounters, they will also generate hex content (lairs, geographic features, etc) and, if you feel comfortable winging it, your players will never know if it's a random encounter or a fixed one.
Keep the world dynamic. Don't let the players suppose that everything they have cleared will remain cleared. This not only adds verisimilitude and realism, it also creates opportunities for further adventures, for the same PCs or other newer parties that may arrive to the campaign. Also, try to link hex entries to other hex entries so they form a kind of “tapestry”. I do this to create some sort of “plots” without having an over-arching plot a la adventure path. The PCs may find them or not, and may realize the connections or not, but if/when they do, oh the looks on their faces!!!
Do not restrict yourself to underground types of terrain. This is highly subjective, and perhaps it is not what you want in your Underdark, but an interesting idea imo is to add some “hollow earth/pellucidar” areas that feature some natural terrain that shouldn’t be there. Jungles filled with dinosaurs and lost civilizations, and the like could give some variety to the usual caverns and corridors and surprise your players.
Well, I think that’s it more or less... I don’t know if any of this will help you, but there we are. If you’re nothing like me, be prepared for insane amount of work, but it pays off in spades and could result in really amazing and memorable sessions! And the good thing about player-driven campaigns is that often you will be as surprised as they are! Have fun!
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If you need to adjust the difficulty of the combats, you shouldn't get too far from the suggested CR because of DCs and such will become to out sync, so instead adjust HP, that alone can make encounters much easier or harder without throwing PCs against things that will always make its save and for which the PCs never will.
I appreciate both of the replies. I will mull them over. The good thing is that even though my adventure coming up will be set in the locale, I dont have to decide anything immediately.
Thanks!
Some really great advice from Keldarth.
You may want to design your own custom "Underdark" for your setting if you want to stick with a relatively low-magic region. The Underdark regions in most published campaign settings tend to be fairly high-magic for several reasons.
1) Because the Underdark (or Darklands in Golarion) is exotic. One of the most common tropes used in D&D to help communicate the concept of exotic cultures is to increase the level of magic the locals have access to. Many Underdark cultures happen to be magic-heavy societies for this reason.
2) Because the Underdark is dangerous. The high level of risk and danger found in the Underdark (be it Forgotten Realms or any other) lends itself to the presence of high levels of magic. First, because any society able to sustain itself for the long-term in such a dangerous environment tends toward relying on a great deal of magic to survive. Second, because most of the Underdark settings published also tend to be areas of exploration designed for higher level play which means access to higher level magic.
Just a few things to consider when designing or looking for an underground setting. May I recommend, if you're in the mood for Dwarves, a region of the Underdark closer to the surface. Perhaps a Dwarven enclave at war with a society of Troglodytes. You should be able to keep such an environment relatively low-magic without breaking verisimilitude. The upper reaches are often safer and lower level (Class-wise) than the deeper reaches, conventionally, and both Dwarves and Troglodytes can function as low-magic societies.
To continue with that idea, in Golarion the Darklands are split into three regions. The upper-most region is known as Nar-Voth. Each region is further divided into localized environments. The section of Nar-Voth found under Varisia would work. Under Varisia, there is the Dwarven city of Janderhoff from which to base the party's explorations; there is also the troglodyte realm of Kuvhoshik. The party could arrive in the area just as a powder-keg is set off which spurs the Dwarves to war against the Troglodytes. There are also other realms nearby (including a city of Duergar) which could be left as optional places for the party to investigate to help with the sandbox feel and, of course, getting from Janderhoff to Kuvhoshik won't be easy and can provide plenty more opportunities for exploration along the way.
Other Underdark races the party could deal with along the way include the Duergar (Dark Dwarves), Dark Folk, Derro, and Vegepygmies.