trying to think of a good idea for a combat bard. Not so much that he dishes out a whole lot on his own but is great at assisting the hitters of the group. Disarm and Tripping being two of the big ones that I see him doing.
Anything that you can think of would be great thanks.
Couple of questions:
Are you looking for multi-class builds or pure bard?
Do you already have your race in mind?
Couple of questions:
Are you looking for multi-class builds or pure bard?
Do you already have your race in mind?
I am hoping for pure bard but a level dip here or there is okay too. Races I am good with anything medium. Nothing personal agains gnomes and halflings I just can't picture one of them running around and tripping people too effectively. If you can prove otherwise I will consider it.
I like the dawnflower dervish with 1 or 2 level dip into monk for crane style and cran defense. You can then perform giving your bonus and stand in melee and aid attacks or AC while flanking.
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Doesn't the Dawnflower Dervish give up the ability to Inspire Courage in others for the Battledance Inspire Courage x2 on the Bard only ?
That said, you could still be a Dervish Dancer without being a Dawnflower Dervish, if you spend the prerequisite feats and get proficiency with a scimitar.
great at assisting the hitters
Ask the other players what they're building, and try to shore up their weaknesses while supporting their strong points.
But more than that: don't try to be a great meleeer yourself. You're a Bard: you're decent at anything, but never the best.
Our group has a bard that I designed to be an archer/healer. I figure being in melee is a bad spot for a bard not focused on it, so putting in some damage at range while being able to fire off arrows, heal, and inspire courage is the way to go.
If you want to focus on tripping and disarming, you'll need Combat Expertise early on so that you can take Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, along with the later feats Greater Trip and Greater Disarm.
If you want to drop strength in favor of Dex for the improvement to AC, look at taking Weapon Finesse (to go with the rapier) and Agile Maneuvers for your combat maneuvers.
I agree about taking a performance that can be heard rather than seen (that way you can maintain it while invisisble if needed). Check out Treantmonk's Guide to Bards for some ideas. Not everyone agrees with him, but you'll get some ideas to point you in the right direction. The guide has a section about a Battlefield Control build that sounds like what you want. It's a little outdated, but still useful.
-Aaron
If you are set on Disarm or Trip, I cannot recommend a Bard at all. I know the whip is tempting, but you need Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm or Trip, and the Greater versions. Also, disarm won't work on most monsters while many of them get bonuses against trip attempts from size or extra legs. Unless you know the campaign is going to be heavy with humanoids, skip both of those. Even if there are a lot of humanoids, a class with 75% BAB and Strength as a secondary probably shouldn't specialize in maneuvers. Check out this link for average CMD's. By level 10, you will usually fail.
You are correct in saying that small characters do not make great Combat Maneuver types, but if you are willing to take Weapon Finesse and a rapier, they still may be your best bet for combat effectiveness. Use Acrobatics and set up flanking for your allies. I would recommend halfling for the Dex bonus and Sure Footed. Yes, the gnome will have more hit points (and a few, weak spells), but the improved AC from Dex means the enemies will hit you less. Halfling Sure-footed comes in handy here too. I would even go so far as to take Skill Focus (Acrobatics) or maybe Dodge/Mobility for failures or both.
If you want to be useful, Inspire Courage is a must, so do not consider any archtype that makes you trade that. You need that bonus as much as anyone. The Arcane Duelist is a decent choice, but you will lose most of your good, non-combat abilities. Arcane Strike is good for damage. Weapon Bond is nice for being able to cast an extra spell and cast with your weapon hand. Little else in the build is spectacular in my eye. Pure Bard is not really a bad choice here, and you could always just take Arcane Strike as a feat.
Finally, I must remark that you will never be the best front-line character. The tips above may help in combat, but you should probably just leave that to others. Lord Pendragon has the right of it in suggesting archer, and if you really want to do more than this, maybe Bard isn't the best class for you. That's all just my two copper anyway.
yep forgot about the perform beign self only, but that does help alot in doing the disarms and what not while haveing a decent AC and being able to deflect an attack.
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What I have learned from playing Bard. In both my home game and PFSP.
1: Bard's face, and skill monkey.
2: Bard's buff.
Out side of this they can do ok. I highly recommend Dex build if your going for buffing focus. You need to go high in the Initiative order to get the buffs up. So when the other party members start the fight there using the buffs. In order to get up there I went with Improved Initiative (Feet), Reactionary (Trait), and Dex (Main stat focus).
I spend 3/4 of the time in combat being the flanker, or buffing. Setting the other characters in the party to take them down.
As for needing two rounds to get started.
Level 1-6
Round 1: Inspire Courage
Round 2: Move for flanking and attack if you can.
Level 7+
Round 1: Inspire Courage(Move Action) + Haste (Standard Action)
Round 2: Move for flaking and attack if you can. If it is going to be a tough fight. Cast good hope and move to flanking.
Round 3: Tough fight only Tactical Acumen. Move to flanking
I totally agree that the Dawnflower Dervish makes a great combat Bard. If you are able, get yourself a metamagic rod with the quicken spell ability. Then you can buff faster and attack. As a Dawnflower Dervish use the scimitar and get improved critical so you crit on 15+. When you get 4th level spells choose Dance of a Hundred Cuts to stack with inspire courage and go to town in battle.
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pretty sure after 4 years he's not still looking for advice for this character.
As several have mentioned, Dervish Dancer Bard will give you Scimitars or Kukris. The nice crit ranges will help provide damage.
But if you are mainly looking to trip and disarm (as you mentioned), I can't help but think a whip is the way to go. And it sure seems fun. For damage you could pick up proficiency in Scorpion Whip. But to me, a better option would be to carry another weapon in your other hand. You don't have to Two-Weapon Fight with them. Use the Whip when you want to trip and disarm. You the other 1-Hand weapon when you need to do damage.
You could also forgo the whip and choose between some pretty cool weapons out there that have trip or disarm. Some may require you to spend a feat for proficiency, but could be worth it and fun to play.
Some to weapons look into. Some that look interesting to me in bold:
- Sickle (trip)
- Ankus (disarm,trip)
- Flail (disarm, trip)
- Manople (disarm, blocking)
- Heavy Flail (disarm, trip, two-handed)
- Guisarme (trip, reach)
- Ranseur (disarm, reach)
- Halberd (trip)
- Scythe (trip, x4 crit) {mega crit damage, ZOMG!!!}
- Aklys (trip, performance, can trip when thrown, move action to pick up) {Seems neat!}
- Swordbreaker Dagger (disarm, sunder)
- Spiral Rapier (disarm, blocking)
- Hooked Axe (trip)
- Flindbar (disarm, trip)
- Spiked Chain
(disarm, trip, 2-handed but can use Weapon Finesse) {Interesting weapon}
- Nine-section whip (disarm, trip, distracting)
- Double Chained Kama (disarm, trip, reach, can use 1-hand to threaten at 5 ft) {Seems so versatile}
- Meteor hammer (trip, reach)
I know that's a long list. Each weapon offers something a little differnt. My favorite: the Double Chained Kama gives you disarm, trip, 10 ft attack with reach, but can also wield the kama in-hand for 5 ft attack. And if one of the kamas is disarmed from you, you can retrieve it with a free action. Very neat weapon. The Aklys being able to trip at range seems really cool. And the fact that it can be retrieved with a move action, seem awesome. Interesting weapon for sure. But wouldn't allow you to take a full-attack action like some of the other weapons (since you have to move to retrieve it).
If you are looking into Skald, check out the Fated Champion archetype. The first ability gives you improved initiative. Could be useful as a support character. Allows the strategy to evolve & revolve around the various ways you can support the team before any other characters take action.
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bards have a lot of combat going for them if built for it.
Bards get +1 to attack and damage at lv1 and it scales.
Bards gain access to arcane strike and often aren't doing anything better with their swift actions for more damage.
bards gain early access to heroism for +2 to attacks and saves(helping out their poor fort)
So a bard at lv5 has +3 from bab, +4 str, +2 heroism, +2 bardsong = +11 for d +6 str, +2 bardsong, +2 arcane strike = d +10
Power attack takes this to +10 for d+13
A barb lv5 has +5 from bab +6 str = +11 for d +9 str = d +9
with power attack he's at +9 for d+15
So we can see that the bard is able to be pulling off very competent numbers. The biggest issue is that normally people build them with 14 or less str and then don't understand why it's not a combat build. Like a barb with 14 str is a considerably worse combat build than an 18 str one. Just need to get stats right and the bard works well.
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You can make very, very competent combat Bards. If you don't care about buffing the party, be an Archaeologist or Dawnflower Dervish. If you do care, be a regular Bard. Still good.
Take the Flagbearer feat and carry a flag in your off hand, with a buckler. Later upgrade the flag to a Banner of the Ancient Kings to both increase your effective Bard level for Inspire Courage and also increase the Flagbearer bonus. Use your one handed weapon of choice. Or just use a longspear to unlock the extra bonuses from Banner and forget the buckler.
By level 7, as a normal Bard, assuming you've bought the Banner of the Ancient Kings and you're not forgetting to use Heroism, you're looking at something like:
5 BAB + 5 STR + 3 Inspire Courage + 2 Flagbearer + 2 Heroism + 2 magic - 2 Power Attack = +17 to hit
1d6 weapon + 5 STR + 3 Inspire Courage + 2 Flagbearer + 2 magic + 4 Power Attack = 1d6+16 damage
That's +17 for 1d6+16 of your own, plus you can cast Haste. Not to mention that you're giving out +5 to hit and damage for the rest of the party.
Personally, though, I'm a big fan of dipping a few levels. Like a single level dip each into Crusader Cleric and Scaled Fist Unchained Monk. Get free Weapon Focus, free Dodge or Combat Reflexes, other misc stuff, and you now qualify for the Crusader's Flurry feat, allowing you to Flurry of Blows with whatever weapon you happen to be using. Just start using Mage Armor to make up for not being able to wear armor. Between that, free Dodge, and CHA to AC you should actually come out ahead.
how is your inspire courage +3? it's +3 at 11+....You can make very, very competent combat Bards. If you don't care about buffing the party, be an Archaeologist or Dawnflower Dervish. If you do care, be a regular Bard. Still good.
Take the Flagbearer feat and carry a flag in your off hand, with a buckler. Later upgrade the flag to a Banner of the Ancient Kings to both increase your effective Bard level for Inspire Courage and also increase the Flagbearer bonus. Use your one handed weapon of choice. Or just use a longspear to unlock the extra bonuses from Banner and forget the buckler.
By level 7, as a normal Bard, assuming you've bought the Banner of the Ancient Kings and you're not forgetting to use Heroism, you're looking at something like:
5 BAB + 5 STR + 3 Inspire Courage + 2 Flagbearer + 2 Heroism + 2 magic - 2 Power Attack = +17 to hit
1d6 weapon + 5 STR + 3 Inspire Courage + 2 Flagbearer + 2 magic + 4 Power Attack = 1d6+16 damageThat's +17 for 1d6+16 of your own, plus you can cast Haste. Not to mention that you're giving out +5 to hit and damage for the rest of the party
It's an effect of Banner of Ancient Kings. You treat your Bard level as 4 higher than it is for determining bonuses on Inspire Courage. The bigger problem I see is that Banner is that the build assumed 20 str and is substantially over level 7 WBL. The overall point of the post is fair though.
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Archaeologist is a poor choice. 4+2 rounds per day is not nearly enough.
Archaeologist is a fantastic choice. Not only should you definitely have 16+ CHA, meaning at least 4+3 rounds per day, but the most important things to know are:
- Their version of performance is a Swift action from the get go, which is huge if you want to be participating in combat yourself.
- It's a luck bonus, making it subject to Fate's Favored, meaning it's +2 right away at level 1, then +3 at 5.
- You can be half-orc of half-elf for the FCB of +1 round of performance.
- It's still subject to Lingering Performance, effectively tripling your rounds per day. 21+ rounds should be more than enough, and since it's a Swift action it's no big deal to just reactivate every couple rounds.
- You get rogue talents, trap stuff, and a sweet bonus to Perception and Disable Device, making you a better rogue (not that that's hard to accomplish).
how is your inspire courage +3? it's +3 at 11+....
Banner of the Ancient Kings causes your Inspire Courage bonus to count as if you were 4 levels higher, meaning that at level 7, with a Banner, your effective level for Inspire Courage is 11. If you give my post another read, you'll see I was saying that was assuming you had a Banner. Another alternative would be Three Reasons to Live, which counts your performance as though you were 6 levels higher.
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The bigger problem I see is that Banner is that the build assumed 20 str and is substantially over level 7 WBL. The overall point of the post is fair though.
That's a fair point. The Banner is a little pricey. You probably don't actually buy one until 8, and that's if you hold off on a +2 weapon, but you got what I was getting at.
The bigger problem I see is that Banner is that the build assumed 20 str and is substantially over level 7 WBL. The overall point of the post is fair though.That's a fair point. The Banner is a little pricey. You probably don't actually buy one until 8, and that's if you hold off on a +2 weapon, but you got what I was getting at.
Looking more carefully, I also don't think overlapping bonuses from Flagbearer and Heroism stack (both morale bonuses). Still a fun build (and fantastic at combat buffing).
Arcane Duelist seems like combat oriented bard, you keep inspire courage and have maguses weapon enchant thingamajig if you need it, as well as armor proficiency at later levels (and ability to cast in armor).
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Looking more carefully, I also don't think overlapping bonuses from Flagbearer and Heroism stack (both morale bonuses). Still a fun build (and fantastic at combat buffing).The bigger problem I see is that Banner is that the build assumed 20 str and is substantially over level 7 WBL. The overall point of the post is fair though.That's a fair point. The Banner is a little pricey. You probably don't actually buy one until 8, and that's if you hold off on a +2 weapon, but you got what I was getting at.
Whoops! You're right, I forgot about that one. It's one or the other. Heroism if you wanna be selfish, Flagbearer if not.
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heroism is also for saves and skills.
True enough. Also, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, you can take the Strength of Submission trait to effectively give Heroism an additional +1 to hit and damage.
Flagbearer always gives a damage bonus, though, which Heroism doesn't normally, and it applies to the whole team instead of just you.
It's a trade off either way and it'll depend on the rest of your build to figure out which one is a better option.
Have you looked at sound striker? they have most of the bard's utility withthe ability to dump a few rounds of performance to unleash sonic based word attacks as supernatural abilities, thus no SR, and can't be counterspelled/antimagic'd...
Arcane Duelist seems like combat oriented bard, you keep inspire courage and have maguses weapon enchant thingamajig if you need it, as well as armor proficiency at later levels (and ability to cast in armor).
This archetype does look fun... as it allows the character to be STR build as you can use Med armor (lvl 10) and Heavy armor (lvl 16) with no spell failure. And you get some really nice feats to battle spell casters. And with a few feats you can get Missile Shield (13 Dex) and Ray Shield (15 Dex). This would require you to carry a shield, which may take away from your damage slightly. But your survivability in combat would improve significantly.
Though down the road... at level 16 it would be cool to be a bard in Mithril Full Plate and a Heavy Shield... nice AC and blocking the first ranged & ray attacks... while supporting teammates and mixing it up in melee... seems fun!
I am in Rise of the Rune Lords with an Arcane Duelist.
We are 14th level. I have Master Performer and Grand Master Performer. My Inspire Courage for the group is +5. The character is Strength based. Mithral Breastplate. I have noticed in my game that the "anti-mage" feats have not worked well when I have gotten in the face of actual casters. It might just be the module.
I have enjoyed playing this character. It reminds me of the Magus. It is like playing a Gish.
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I have been messing around with a scaled fist 1 bard x with a longspear, combat ref, crusaders flurry.
How you ask arcane healer gets channel! If you combine flurry with chess pwn's numbers you get really solid dpr. Level 7 take flag bearer in prep of banner of ancient kings. There is a nice stacking archetype studious librarian can expand its spell list slightly. Arcane strike can provide another source of scaling damage.
I like the build for pfs because scribe scroll is replaced with skill focus knowledge with means you can take the arcane bloodline for a protector familiar via eldritch heritage.
I have been messing around with a scaled fist 1 bard x with a longspear, combat ref, crusaders flurry.
How you ask arcane healer gets channel! If you combine flurry with chess pwn's numbers you get really solid dpr. Level 7 take flag bearer in prep of banner of ancient kings. There is a nice stacking archetype studious librarian can expand its spell list slightly. Arcane strike can provide another source of scaling damage.
I like the build for pfs because scribe scroll is replaced with skill focus knowledge with means you can take the arcane bloodline for a protector familiar via eldritch heritage.
Wow, that is one fine familiar archetype. Full HP sounds nice.
Try archaeologist.
Instead of using a lute or flute or witty retort, he fights like a man. Archaeologist's luck is a scaling bonus to hit and damage, which makes up for the BaB and gives a much needed class based damage boost. Then you get rogue talents which are basically feats or better.
Half orc is a cool choice for weapon proficiencies. There's a lot of synergy for a character like this with charisma friendly feats like battle cry and dazzling display.
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Try archaeologist.
Instead of using a lute or flute or witty retort, he fights like a man. Archaeologist's luck is a scaling bonus to hit and damage, which makes up for the BaB and gives a much needed class based damage boost. Then you get rogue talents which are basically feats or better.
Half orc is a cool choice for weapon proficiencies. There's a lot of synergy for a character like this with charisma friendly feats like battle cry and dazzling display.
archaeologist is great, but it's what I call a "selfish bard" aka "not a bard" because when people hear bard the expect inspire courage and you don't do that.
Yep it's a GREAT magic rogue or overall useful guy. Just be aware you need to manage expectations if you take it.
Studious Librarian, Voice of the Wild - very cool archetype
Although it's kind of a happy accident that the charismatic bard chasis you're left with is still useful with battle cry and dazzling display. If you go that route you'll be able to buff and debuff in the same turn. You won't be as good at this sort of role but you'll be decdnt at it, while being significantly better ad a martial character.
You mean, like a rogue that cant debuff, cant buff. With a few rounds only of buffing and talents rhat wont work cause there ia no sneak attack ao no danageYep it's a GREAT magic rogue or overall useful guy.Basically this. Archaeologist is like if Rogue didn't suck.
No, this is not an accurate way to look at the archaeologist.
1) As far as debuffing and buffing go, you've still got access to a good spell list with slow, haste and others. Saying that removing performance removes your ability to buff/debuff is like saying taking away a druid's animal companion makes him a s#+@ melee combatant. It hurts, but if designed right you'll still be a good buffer/debuffer while being MUCH better at other things. You could say that relying on spells gives you fewer rounds of buffing but truth be told 6th level casting isba very powerful class feature and the best thing any 6th level caster has going for it.
2) The idea that rogue talents won't work because you can't sneak attack is simply wrong. I suggest you read through the rogue talents, a great many of them are good for any skilly or killy character regardless of fighting style. I realize that the word ROGUE brings to mind words like STEALTH and DEX and SNEAK ATTACK, but these preconceptions will greatly limit your understanding of what rogue talents do.
The archeologist might have been named "generic magical adventurer". The class/archetype pushes virtually no agenda as far as flavor is concerned.
If you had 6 archaeologists in a party you could have:
A magical archer
A buffer debuffer
A melee bruiser
An enchanter/mind controler
A party face/invisible skill monkey
A jack of all trades
They would all play differently and there would still be room for additional unique archaeologists to join the party.
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You mean, like a rogue that cant debuff, cant buff. With a few rounds only of buffing and talents rhat wont work cause there ia no sneak attack ao no danage
Level 7 Archaeologist:
5 BAB + 5 STR + 1 magic + 1 Weapon Focus + 3 Luck + 2 Heroism - 2 Power Attack = +15 to hit7 STR + 1 magic + 3 Luck + 6 Power Attack = +17 to damage
Level 7 Unchained Rogue:
5 BAB + 5 DEX + 1 magic + 1 Weapon Focus = +12 to hit
5 DEX + 1 magic + 4d6 Sneak Attack = +6 to damage with sometimes getting another +4 to +24 damage (average +14)
What's that you were saying about no damage?
A Bard going for Ranged Trips would be pretty insane. You could get a Bow, and get the feats Deadly Aim, Ranged Trip and Ranged Disarm and start Tripping/Disarming as early as lvl 5, and then go into some feats that make your buffing better (or anything you want).
If you don't want to play with a Bow, maybe try a Whip with a +2 Anchoring Enchantment? The Whip and a +2 Anchoring Enchantment is not expensive feat-wise, maybe pick up agile maneuvers to make it better if you want.
And if you wanted to, you could play with both.
Edit: If you want to be a real pain in the butt, you can get Dirty Fighting and Imp Trip/Disarm on top of Ranged Trip/Disarm. Dirty Fighting is an excellent substitute for the prerequisite Combat Expertise (which is near-worthless for you), and if you can get into some Flanking positions, you can perform every Combat Maneuver without provoking an AO, and have a +4 to your Trip/Disarms while flanking.
Dirty Fighting (Combat)
You can take advantage of a distracted foe.
Benefit(s): When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.