I'm pretty sure the thread title says it all to those who know what the Whispering Way is, but after reading up about it from Broken Moon (the third part of Carrion Crown), I got a bit confused. Weren't these guys supposed to be villains? They way their philosophy is explained just makes it look like their goal makes sense, but "because undead are evil and shiznit", they are always going to be evil. Here's a little quote that reinforced my confusion.
"Yet more than just seeking a path to personal power, the Whispering Way seeks to change the world, viewing Golarion as a chaotic, dangerous place, besieged by its own diversity of creatures, cultures, and possibilities. Under the rule of worthy undead princes, all the world might be cleansed, leaving it an ordered realm of death, but not of quiet rot. Rather, they see an eternal world unified by a united state, purpose, consistency, and peace."
See how the highlighted part comes up? All the villains so far associated with the Whispering Way seem to imply that's the ONLY part of the philosophy. After reading through this, I feel very tempted to make a small edit to the Agent of the Grave prestige class and make them "Any Non-Good". Honestly, it fits better than a Razmiran Priest not being restricted to LE, LN and NE as alignments in Paths of Prestige. Also, anyone who goes with the whole "the path to Hell is paved with good intentions" quote can just look at how Evil works in Pathfinder and then rethink about that, because I have NOT really seen too many examples of that in the APs so far.
(My own theory is that Tar-Baphon corrupted the original teachings with his focus on Evil and his own little quest to beat Aroden to the punch.)
I read the quote as being indicative of how any tyrant would justify themselves to people who care to ask.
Also, arguing that the quote represents a more neutral set of ideals leaves out the fact that for this world to come to be, everything must die.
Genocide, for the world's "own good", whether it wants it or not.
That alone sticks the philosophy in pretty unambiguously evil territory.
And what of a Whispering Way agent who does not forcibly turn people undead, who does believe that mortality is "wrong" and undeath is the state everyone should strive for? The one who tells others how he has "seen the light" so to speak, and encourages them to also avoid the path to oblivion, the road to Pharasma's Boneyard. Comes to mind the fact that Urgathoa can have True Neutral Clerics, and their disposition would be quite similar, though you'd have to add the whole gluttony and hedonism to the mix.
That would be a heavy alteration of the stated goals of the whispering way, from so far as I can see. The philosophy is about the pursuit of personal power and the death of all living things in the name of a nebulous utopia. It doesn't matter if you don't think that's wrong: It's pretty heinous to anyone who wants to stay alive.
RE Urgathoa: So far as I know, her goal is not the genocide of all life. Someone who knows her creed better may of course gainsay me.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And what of a Whispering Way agent who does not forcibly turn people undead, who does believe that mortality is "wrong" and undeath is the state everyone should strive for? The one who tells others how he has "seen the light" so to speak, and encourages them to also avoid the path to oblivion, the road to Pharasma's Boneyard.
In this light, Rahadoum seems *ripe* for a Whispering Way incursion.
Where else would you find an entire nation of people who *don't* want to go to their god's otherworldly 'paradises,' who have no 'heaven' or 'hell' awaiting them, and who do not want their eternal souls to become yet more mind-wiped pawns serving as puppets in the chess games of various gods and outsiders? The best way to avoid that whole rigged game, and avoid becoming meals for daemons or puppets for devils (or angels) or pick-me-up snack food for night hags to sell on the infernal markets, is to follow the path blazed by Urgathoa, and not shuffle meekly into that good night, like a lamb to the slaughter, all to profit uncaring gods who brought nothing but unrelenting terror and strife to your country.
Do not go into the light. There is neither peace, nor serenity, in the light, only the obliteration of self and eternal slavery!
And what of a Whispering Way agent who does not forcibly turn people undead, who does believe that mortality is "wrong" and undeath is the state everyone should strive for? The one who tells others how he has "seen the light" so to speak, and encourages them to also avoid the path to oblivion, the road to Pharasma's Boneyard.In this light, Rahadoum seems *ripe* for a Whispering Way incursion.
Where else would you find an entire nation of people who *don't* want to go to their god's otherworldly 'paradises,' who have no 'heaven' or 'hell' awaiting them, and who do not want their eternal souls to become yet more mind-wiped pawns serving as puppets in the chess games of various gods and outsiders? The best way to avoid that whole rigged game, and avoid becoming meals for daemons or puppets for devils (or angels) or pick-me-up snack food for night hags to sell on the infernal markets, is to follow the path blazed by Urgathoa, and not shuffle meekly into that good night, like a lamb to the slaughter, all to profit uncaring gods who brought nothing but unrelenting terror and strife to your country.
Do not go into the light. There is neither peace, nor serenity, in the light, only the obliteration of self and eternal slavery!
Now that sounds like an excellent pitch by how a Whispering Way agent might portray themselves to earn converts.
And there's very interesting campaign seed there, I think.
I told you there's potential.
I told you there's potential.
I think there's potential for the Whispering Way to portray themselves positively so as to delude people into following them, not for the philosophy to actually do good in the world.
I'd still restrict it to evil alignments.
If you have Paths of Prestige, please look at Razmiran Priest, then tell me honestly if a Chaotic Evil/Chaotic Neutral one made any sense given Razmir is Lawful Evil and his methods require that strict loyalty more often than not? And again, Neutral Cleric of Urgathoa is allowed, by RAW. Anyway, I could totally see a True Neutral Cleric of Urgathoa/Agent of the Grave, who'd rather try to convert people than kill them and raise them as undead. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you have to be actively reaping stuff, as given by how some deities like Asmodeus operate.
Oh, and some Asmodeans are Lawful Neutral. Ain't that a shocker?
Paths of Prestige being the sourcebook again, there's the Blackfire Adept, that is described as an "Evil summoner of Fiends" in the initial pages, only to have the alignment restriction "Any Non-Good" despite specializing in breaching the barrier between planes, and summoning legions of angry fiends primarily from the Lower Planes (Hell, Abaddon and the Abyss), which is far worse for the world in general than any undead could offer. Lastly, in the same book is also the Aspis Agent, a prestige class basically owned by the Aspis Consortium (a Neutral Evil, rather nasty organization) yet free of any alignment restrictions of any kind. I highly doubt anyone would agree a Good-aligned Rogue/Ranger/Bard taking levels of that Prestige Class would seem belieavable in any way, just like a Good-aligned Assassin seems absurd to some.
Director of Narrative
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alignment discussions can be interpreted and pulled in many different ways, but there is nothing non-evil with wanting to destroy all life on a planet. The Whispering Way, or at least some of those in the organization, want to convert the entire population of Golarion into undead so they would have an easier time controlling the entire population. They do see undeath as the ultimate goal for a perfect world. They're also sick and twisted individuals willing to do anything for their own selfish goals.
And how is it that similarly "sick and twisted" individuals are given the rights to keep a Neutral alignment despite practicing arts that are just as bad, if not even worse? That's kinda what I've been wanting to know this whole time, since it fails to make sense to me (hopefully I am not alone in that).
No offense, but it seemed like you guys just dodged the question completely.
Those other groups aren't focussed - at their core, and unavoidably - on wiping out all life in the world. This is the key part that makes the Whispering Way unambiguously evil. They believe it to be a great good, but believing that what you're doing is right has nothing to do with whether it actually is right. It doesn't matter if you think that murdering every sentient being on the planet and raising them as the undead will ultimately be better for them. It's still heinously evil in a way few other things in the setting are.
Last I checked, Asmodeus didn't want to kill every single living thing in the world.
Could there be LN people affiliated with its periphery, or a heavily altered version of the organization? Maybe... But you're getting further and further away from the core precept of the philosophy's selfish and genocidal aims. At its core, the Whispering Way is about self glorification and mass-murder. It can sugarcoat this however it wants, and its adherents can delude themselves all they want. That they're willing to murder the world in a quest for power is more than enough to make them evil, no matter how good they think they are.
Last I checked, Asmodeus didn't want to kill every single living thing in the world.
No, he wants them all in Hell, and then wants to put them away after he's stripped them of the free will that they had gained thanks to his brother Ihys. Pretty much the same thing as what the Whispering Way wants since the souls will last forever but far worse, since he considers (and always has considered) mortals to be flawed and merely playthings of the gods (also because they end up with no freedom whatsoever if Asmodeus gets what he wants). I am not 100% sure of the accuracy of my portrayal, but look up the Book of the Damned Vol I, all of what I am saying now is there.
|
Director of Narrative
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No offense, but it seemed like you guys just dodged the question completely.
We’re all over the place here, and I admit I’m confused. I probaly misread your question. No offense taken, but I don’t enjoy being accused of dodging a question, so I’m going to ask for some clarification to your question and maybe we can shake out an acceptable answer. :)
Is it that you think the Whispering Way isn’t wholly evil? or Is it that you think it’s weird that priests of Razmir, Urgathoa, and Asmodeus don’t have to be evil?
If it’s the cleric thing, then I kinda agree, but that is a victim of mechanics and not totally flavor-based. The rules for the game allow clerics to choose an alignment within one step of their deity, which I think is a bit weak. I personally think that if you’re going to be the big bad cheerleader for a divine power, you need to be strictly in line with that deity. Otherwise, just be a worshipper.
But, if the whole question was about looking for some shades of gray regarding the Whispering Way, sorry man—those guys are just plain evil. If the main point of the question was to rank other evil people and see where they line up on that list, global genocide where you rob the being of a chance of an afterlife (thus upsetting the goddess of death in the process) is pretty bad.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
global genocide where you rob the being of a chance of an afterlife (thus upsetting the goddess of death in the process) is pretty bad.
Genocide isn't really the perfect term for wanting to transform all living creatures into eternal creatures that can never know fear or hunger or disease or pain or death, but can go right on existing forever, with just a different color of non-aligned otherworldly energy powering their motor than the previous color of non-aligned otherworldly energy.
When I think 'genocide,' I don't think, 'free to exist forever in a rarified state above all mortal concerns.' I think gas chambers and heaps of bodies and lives and potential lost and wasted, hopes and dreams and family lines ruthlessly swept away, not potential freed to finally be realized and achieved, able to study and learn and explore without having to devote so much of your brief existence to sustaining a flawed positive-energy-dependent existence, butchering other living creatures and devouring them and ending their own lives to stave off entropy for one more day, while multiple generations of families who never would have known each other under the tyranny of death able to meet for the first time as the barriers blocking them from ever meeting are torn away, and is no more fear of having everything you've ever known ripped away by the forgetfulness / amnesia that comes with petitioner status, to become just another blob of 'good' or 'evil' used as a commodity by alien outsiders in the upper or lower planes.
It's *easy*, knowing what we do of how life and undeath work in the setting (life requiring constant daily killing to maintain, for instance, suggesting that it is *more* unnatural than a perfected state of undeath, such as that experienced by a mummy or lich), and how the nature of the soul becoming a petitioner obliterates the individual's sense of self and leaves them little more than planar currency that talks, to consider removing oneself from that rigged game and remaining behind on the mortal plane as an immortal being to be a far more 'good' solution than to 'go gently into that good night.'
Upsetting the non-good goddess of death should be no more evil than upsetting the non-good god of war or the non-good goddess of trickery, lust and vengeance, or the 'neutral' gods of piracy and strife and sea monsters (Besmara), or oblivion and ruins (Groetus). Pharasma's neither good nor lawful nor greater-er than the other gods (nor even particularly nice), so I do not particularly get how defying her in particular is so much more unnatural and blasphemous than what was done to, say, Rovagug, who is every bit as much a god as she is.
She may think she's all that and a wedge of cheese, but I don't see her, or her 'laws,' as any more special-er than Sarenrae or Gozreh or Rovagug, all of whom represent primal fundamental aspects of the universe.
Ooh, an applecart. I must go kick it over.
|
Director of Narrative
|
Fair point. Genocide is a poor term. However, the current adherents to the Whispering Way aren't talking about turning everyone on the planet to liches or intelligent undead. Many, if not most, of them would love to turn the majority of people on the planet into mindless undead, slaves to their perfect vision of the world.
The rest of your post sounds like a good recruitment tool. Are you sure you haven't heard the whisper, brother?
;)
|
|
Fair point. Genocide is a poor term. However, the current adherents to the Whispering Way aren't talking about turning everyone on the planet to liches or intelligent undead. Many, if not most, of them would love to turn the majority of people on the planet into mindless undead, slaves to their perfect vision of the world.
True, even if the goals of the Whispering Way *can* be twisted around to be non-malevolent (if very alien and disturbing), that doesn't mean that the vast, vast, vast majority of it's adherents aren't primarily interested in being the undead apocalypse's version of the 1%, overseeing a cold sterile planet full of subdued dead-enders.
Plus there's all the ghouls and vampires, who share the mortal living creature flaws of requiring (or, at least, desiring) flesh and blood and the spent lives of others to keep their motor purring.
(Although, in the perfect Whispering Way utopia, there won't be anything left for them to eat, and the undead who *aren't* still shackled to mortal concerns like feeding, the mummies and liches, will no doubt consider the 'feeders' to be embarassing defective throwbacks to their pre-undead existence, and cull them. Indeed, a primary motivation for killing *all* life on the planet would be to leave the ghouls and vampires SOL, with nothing left to feed upon...)
The rest of your post sounds like a good recruitment tool. Are you sure you haven't heard the whisper, brother? ;)
Heard it? I'm the one whispering it!
And now, to completely contradict my previous post, while using the same in-game setting logic ('cause I'm contrary that way);
In the D&D/PF cosmology, all of mortal existence on the 'prime material plane,' as it used to be called, is basically the squirming of maggots and caterpillars. Life as a humanoid or animal or whatever is just an imperfect larval stage of existence.
Life *really* begins when your mortal flesh drops dead, and, like an eggshell cracking and disgorging a fledgeling chick, your soul sours forth into the outer planes, to become an immortal outsider, free of all mortal concerns. Some rise as butterflies, to the heavens, others as death's head moths or carrion flies, to warmer climates in a more southerly direction.
The fiends of the Pit, tongue in cheek, remind the fledgeling souls that enter their infernal dominion of their true nature, as barely more than maggots, by forcing them to manifest as maggots with faces, as Larvae, because that's what mortals are to them, merely larvae, who, if they are very lucky, may someday evolve past their flawed lowly mortal pasts, and take flight as outsiders, creatures of pure spirit and will (and, in their case, malice and spite).
This then, is what is 'natural' to the D&D/PF cosmology. As soul is whelped in the dirty smelly degenerate mortal world, and those that finally slough off that nasty fleshly shell and ascend (or descend...) into the outer planes become rarified creatures of pure spirit, immortal outsiders.
To become undead is to reject that natural transition, to trap oneself in the imperfect mortal mire and to stop one's spiritual evolution cold, remaining stuck behind with the mortals in the world of pain and hunger and aging and disease and death. It's the ultimate arrested development, and a result of fear, the fear of change, the fear of abandoning the learning or power or station or possessions that one has acquired in the transitory mortal plane.
What makes it a profoundly selfish choice, one that is rhetorically called 'unnatural' or 'upsetting the natural balance' is that the mortal world only has so much land, so many resources, so much wealth, and for every immortal who lives beyond their allotted time, there is that much less available to the countless millions of other mortal lives. Like the moral of the movie Prometheus, that the most important thing a king can do is to die and pass on his throne, when the time comes, the undead, in refusing to move on and release his grasp on worldly possessions and worldly affairs and worldly ties, competes with those resources with those still living, even with his own descendents or clan or countrymen or species, leaving them with less, as they can never inherit what their deathless ancestor refuses to give up.
This then is the uncomfortable truth of it, that the Ouroboran logic of 'undead are unnatural because they are wrong and wrong because they are unnatural and shut up because I said so' isn't what makes undeath problematic. What makes undeath 'unnatural' to the D&D/PF paradigm is that mortality is a condition to be escaped from, a filthy imperfect condition to be shed like a dirty pair of underwear, to rise into the upper planes or descend into infernal pits as a pure immortal outsider soul, abandoning as meaningless mortal concerns all things of flesh and family and patriotism and love, and that the huge gaping flaw in those that choose undeath over death is that they cling too much to the mortal world, and their desires and obligations and accomplishments in this world, when they should rightly and properly regard such things with contempt, fleeing life for greener pastures and never looking back.
Just as the king who lives too long and messes up succession for his sons, so is the undead 'messing things up' for creatures of the living world around it, as the lore it hoards is denied to the scholars of the world, the coin in its treasures grows tarnished with verdigris as the local economies struggle, and the lands and resources that lay fallow because of it's presence fail to provide for those who could benefit from them.
Worse, in a *society* in the grip of the eldest, tradition will dominate, and innovation be forever stifled. The mummy-king's soldiers will be wearing bronze breastplates and using bronze spears, while those coming to face him will have steel fullplate and cannons from Alkenstar and the occasional weapons of mithril or adamantine. Society will stagnate and new ideas will be stifled. In the same way that it's nearly impossible to get meaningful internet legislation passed in a political body with an average age of fifty, a society with a ruling body that measures it's age in centuries will find it nearly impossible to advance, because *escaping change* and *clinging to the way things were* was made them embrace undeath, rather than gracefully accept death and move on, in the first place!
The undead society will be worse than the most overblown liberal stereotype of the 'reactionary ultra-conservative,' as it will *literally* be made up of the most fearful creatures in all of existence, the most terrified, the most desperate to avoid death (or any other sort of change) *at any cost,* trapped in the most eternal form of 'arrested development' imaginable, frozen forever in time.
It's joked sometimes in the scientific community that nothing shocking and new can flourish until the current generation (deeply invested in the current theories and paradigms) has died off. Imagine how progress would slow if the 'current generation' can *never* die off.
Imagine if Eox the Dead, 'world of liches' was inhabited indeed by a metric crap-ton of liches, most of which are casting *weaker versions* of spells used by wizards and sorcerers on Golarion, because their own magical innovations are stifled by their own cultural stasis?
"What do you mean, magic missiles don't need to roll to hit? Your lightning bolts don't bounce back and possibly hit you in the face? Ninth level spells? Surely, you're joking. The highest level spells possible are sixth level spells, as proven by Sephir the Wise three thousand years ago! To make a more potent effect, you need to have multiple spellcasters all using sixth level spells at the same time in a ritual casting over a three day period..."
That would be one way to paint undeath as unnatural and harmful, if the undead themselves were portrayed (both in characterization and mechanics) as psychologically unhealthy or impaired or developmentally stunted by their own fear of change.
That sort of thing might fly in the face of Vancian setting assumptions embraced to a lesser extent by Greyhawk and a larger one by the Realms, that magic was 'better, back in the day.' (In Greyhawk, it's implied that the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Invoked Devastation are feats that couldn't be replicated by the mages of the current generation, while in the Realms, it's flat-out canon that magic was 'better,' with stuff like Mythals and elven high magic and 10th level spells and Karsus casting a spell to turn himself into a god being stuff that aren't as do-able in the 'modern' Realms.) Having old liches being stuck using 'old' spells that aren't quite as whiz-bang modern, would go against that 'magic goes away' sort of paradigm, but could make for an interesting rationale for why choosing undeath is a sign of weakness and fear, not of strength and boldness.
|
I can perfectly imagine a Neutral cleric of Asmodeus who thinks that living in a perfectly ordered diabolic tyranny beats living in an uncertain world of lawless rulers, shifting borders, wild roaming monsters unchecked and demons scheming to spread sin. Imagine a Galtian person who arrived at the conclusion that only the panzer arm of Hell has the strength to bring order to his nation. He's not evil, he just thinks that the costs outweigh the gains.
You know, living in a safe dictatorship beats out living in a turbulent freedom for some people. I can get you in touch with many people over here who prefer the communist time to democratic, because the former were safe, predictable and quiet. Nowadays it's sharks swimming around and choices with consequences to be made, and not everybody likes the freedom of choice. Many people are perfectly happy with somebody else making the choice in their stead.
Fair point. Genocide is a poor term. However, the current adherents to the Whispering Way aren't talking about turning everyone on the planet to liches or intelligent undead. Many, if not most, of them would love to turn the majority of people on the planet into mindless undead, slaves to their perfect vision of the world.
The rest of your post sounds like a good recruitment tool. Are you sure you haven't heard the whisper, brother?
;)
Yeah, running Carrion Crown has me pretty convinced that you'd be hard-pressed to find a more nihilistic or destructive group native to Golarion. Life is just a means to an end for them and there is absolutely no act too heinous or depraved for them to carry out if it brings them closer to their endgame. I can hardly wait to pit the party against Vrood!