Goblin Squad Member
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Meaningful human interaction is what happens when one person needs the help of another person to do something interesting.
Make it easier to find super-rare mobs when you have more people looking for them.
To clarify, I saw this in my mind as a truly grand endeavor, where it might literally require the cooperation of 1,000 players to raise leviathan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted it be rare mobs that spawns randomly in a zone. They are slightly harder then the normal monsters but also holds loot that are a little bit better.
Here's what happens in modern MMOs if the game features rare monsters that drop better than average loot:
A group designates some of its members as the Spot the Foozle Team. These players (often multiboxing so they don't lose any time playing their Mains) monitor the area in question 24x7.
The instant the Foozle is detected, word goes out through the guild's communication channels - private message boards, in-game chat, SMS broadcasts, ventrillo, etc. Within literally minutes, a large group is assembled. This group has been outfitted with exactly the best gear to kill the Foozle. They have killed the Foozle hundreds of times and have choreographed their actions into a flawless ballet - they're fast, and have a low risk of consuming resources beyond the minimum necessary to kill the Foozle.
They move to the location of the Foozle using the fastest and most efficient transport. They know the lay of the land and can take any available shortcuts, the fastest route, the best mount, etc.
Within the minimum time possible given the distance to travel, the team arrives and takes the Foozle down. The loot is extracted and transported to a group storage facility where it will be consumed, or resold in the best possible market almost immediately.
Meanwhile, if you are randomly walking around the area the Foozle spawns in, you may have a chance to spectate at this event, but if you come too close to the Foozle, another team of anti-ninja-looters will respond to kill you or otherwise keep you from interfering.
Still think this sounds fun?
RyanD
Meaningful human interaction is what happens when one person needs the help of another person to do something interesting.
Exceptional loot is material that generates an exceptional profit when sold at the market price because obtaining it is hard, time consuming, complicated or some combination thereof.
Right. Soooo:
Make hunting for and finding the rare creatures something that benefits from teamwork.
In the same way that randomly generated dungeons will exist, put out randomly generated rare monsters. But, in order to find them, a set of qualifications must be met. You have to track them for so long, you have to stumble upon certain randomly placed elements (their den, a site of a recent kill by the monster, that sort of thing), you need to talk to a few people to gain research and insight into them, that sort of thing.
In theory it's possible to do all of these things on your own, but successfully finding (and killing) the rare monster will be MUCH more doable if you have allies you are working alongside.
Require success in defeating these difficult creatures depend upon teamwork.
Ryan, you think you can make randomly generated dungeons work, right? What's to stop a group from designating its members as the "Spot the Random Dungeon Team," who will do the exact same thing with going through your randomly generated dungeon as they did with the Foozle?
Whatever controls you plan on implementing to prevent that from happening could easily be implemented upon a rare creature or a rare mob.
Heck, if you really wanted to, you could just make rare creatures significantly more "scripted" than standard creatures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me every mechanic or interaction in a game can be exploited or manipulated. This is a RPG stick with RPG mechanics.
When a rare mob spawns, make it in a totally random location (minus areas that are populated). So that the rare mob populates in areas where people rarely go. Then after x amount of time have NPC's "talking" out-loud in game about x mob that has been seen in x area.
I know this type of encounter can never be available to everyone but in my opinion everything shouldn't be available to everyone. You know the whole if everyone is special, no one is special adage.
The concept of a rare mob should be to generate buzz and get people into areas where people have forgotten about. Shoot you could even spawn x rare mob in and after a certain amount of time x rare mob starts to draw group of mobs to it as body guards or encampments.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I just wanted it be rare mobs that spawns randomly in a zone. They are slightly harder then the normal monsters but also holds loot that are a little bit better.Here's what happens in modern MMOs if the game features rare monsters that drop better than average loot:
A group designates some of its members as the Spot the Foozle Team. These players (often multiboxing so they don't lose any time playing their Mains) monitor the area in question 24x7.
The instant the Foozle is detected, word goes out through the guild's communication channels - private message boards, in-game chat, SMS broadcasts, ventrillo, etc. Within literally minutes, a large group is assembled. This group has been outfitted with exactly the best gear to kill the Foozle. They have killed the Foozle hundreds of times and have choreographed their actions into a flawless ballet - they're fast, and have a low risk of consuming resources beyond the minimum necessary to kill the Foozle.
They move to the location of the Foozle using the fastest and most efficient transport. They know the lay of the land and can take any available shortcuts, the fastest route, the best mount, etc.
Within the minimum time possible given the distance to travel, the team arrives and takes the Foozle down. The loot is extracted and transported to a group storage facility where it will be consumed, or resold in the best possible market almost immediately.
Meanwhile, if you are randomly walking around the area the Foozle spawns in, you may have a chance to spectate at this event, but if you come too close to the Foozle, another team of anti-ninja-looters will respond to kill you or otherwise keep you from interfering.
Still think this sounds fun?
RyanD
That's a very specific chain of events. I bet you can break that chain in more places than I can:
1)Spotting the Foozle is done by some other means; perhaps a clue to the Foozle's location is available by performing any 'desired gameplay' task; a spinner might notice evidence that the Foozle has interacted with the sheep and left traces on the wool; those traces would then be used by a tracker for a chance at finding the Foozle. Evidence with similar effects could be distributed via other gameplay elements.2)The Foozle is rare and/or unique, which means that it is not the same as the previous Foozle; the perfect team might be able to take it down quickly, but determining which team is perfect is nontrivial. Perhaps information about a particular Foozle could be obtained by consuming traces from change 1; instead of determining where to look, one might be able to identify a special quality of a particular Foozle.
3)Defeating the Foozle doesn't always create a container with loot: sometimes (depending on the particular Foozle) it creates a resource harvesting site with limited time and/or resources instead.
4)The Foozle isn't particularly rare, and it doesn't have particularly valuable loot; you get more coin/hour hunting all wolves than you would hunting only packs with Dire Alphas, because Dire Alpha Wolf Pelts are only better than Alpha Wolf Pelts for crafting items which are Strength themed; Cloaks of Protection From Cold are equally effective when made with Alpha Wolf Pelts as when made from Dire Alpha Wolf Pelts.
5) The benefits of defeating the Foozle cannot be transferred to another character; This solution only weakens the chain of Foozle-camping, and opposes the primary goal, so it is not discussed further.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Relikan - The design I envision has some ability for the first person to discover a dungeon to lock it for a limited time. That ensures that the explorer who finds it first can put together their own group to tackle it.
Of course some dungeons will have more than one entrance. :)
The problem with doing this with wandering monsters is that there's no good way to "lock" them - either you see them or you don't see them, and it would be weird as hell to have people fighting thin air.
@DeciusBrutus - In the arms race game of developers trying to block creative players, the developers always lose. No matter what we tried to implement to make it harder for the Foozle Team to do their thing they'll always be able to route around us.
It's better to think about the idea that there are no "unusually valuable rare" wandering monsters. That doesn't mean there's not a hierarchy of value, just that the value isn't random. And that the monsters are not rare. Lack of rarity counter-intuitively means that they're more valuable to a wider array of characters. They don't create the value of monopolizing their loot. A random guy finding a random monster doesn't upset a metagame organization that is seeking to eke out a tiny fraction of an advantage if that monster can be easily harvested by them whenever they want one.
Here's where I'd kind of like this idea to go:
The random monster with the valuable loot that you memorably encounter and maybe get killed by a couple of times before you figure out how to kill it?
That's another player character.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In the arms race game of developers trying to block creative players, the developers always lose. No matter what we tried to implement to make it harder for the Foozle Team to do their thing they'll always be able to route around us.
If you mean "It is not cost effective to have developers monitoring what players are doing and keeping the effects balanced.", or "We choose not to play the metagame with our players." I will grant that you must make that decision.
If you mean "Is is much easier for the players to figure out what we are doing and find an exploit in it than for us to be doing something which will not be exploited.", I think you need to reevaluate the advantages of perfect knowledge and the ability to change the rules.
It's better to think about the idea that there are no "unusually valuable rare" wandering monsters. That doesn't mean there's not a hierarchy of value, just that the value isn't random.
Did you intend "The value per unit time of exploiting most resources will fall into a narrow curve" or "The value per unit time of exploiting all resources will be deterministic"? I'm all for a system in which every wolf has 2 ears instead of 1d3-1 ears, but I'm slightly opposed to every orc brute having exactly 2g 5s 2c. Certainly it should not be the case that a significant portion of the total value per unit time is in individual events with a very small chance of happening; but if each orc brute had a slightly randomized pouch of coin and one item from the list 'random trivial items', and each orc captain had an item from a list of 'minor random items' as well, I think everybody's happy.
The key to keeping that balanced is to make it such that a team which is powerful enough to cakewalk an orc warboss lair is also powerful enough that they could be doing better by ranging further out for wilderness ruins or deeper down in well-developed caverns.
I have no suggestion regarding how to continue to offer the option of ranging further out or deeper down indefinitely. The best option I have to offer is to make the top PvE rewards things which do not make the character better at earning PvE rewards, instead making those rewards things which are used by other styles of play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Possibly the 'Rare Spawn/Infamous Monster' could be random world bosses?
The type, 'temperment' and actions are all dictated by what the players in the nearby Hexes are doing.
Players who are clear-felling and strip-mining could unleash an angry response from the Fae who live/lived in the area, a gigantic earth elemental that looks like somebody gave a small mountain some legs that is crushing their mining and logging camps, and is now going after the source of the problem.
The players' villages/towns. Time to call in some favours, bury the hatchets and try to get as many heroes around as you can to take this thing down before everyone gets flattened.
In another example, a Hex where a lot of wealth is being generated could come under the assault of a powerful Bandit Lord and his Henchmen, unusually tough, very well armed and mounted.
After several days of Merchants, NPC and Player alike, getting hammered in the outlying settlements and on the roads, players think this is just a group of bad-ass Players playing around, but when somebody runs into town and says their entire convoy just got butchered by five npcs, the gauntlet has been filled with chunks of adamantite and been used to b$%!*-slap the local populace.
Imagine players banding together, using their own resources to protect the Merchants as, without them, the gold 'level' of that Hex is steadily decreasing, meaning there is less chance for them to sell their own loot, let alone purchase repairs or materials as the NPCs start packing up to get away from the Bandit Lord.
Players who might not interact due to times online, different choices in activities keeping them apart and so forth now have impetus to connect and share their knowledge, if only to keep their Hex from going under.
A third option might be that Players have, through shenanigans and hard work, managed to make their Hex a very nice place to live. Very few monsters, all the right ammenities, decent taxes and a strong guard presence.
This, of course, makes the Hex more attractive to NPCs, which increases the Gold Level and also makes the NPCs start to expand the towns and villages, which makes it quite likely more Players turn up to provide muscle and resources to aid and abet this population boom.
And then in wander the Varisian Mafia .... The Scarezni? (I apologise, the actual spelling of their name eludes me!)
While not 'tougher' than other NPCs, these jerks bring with them things that might, in the short term, make players wealthier, but in the long term will bring harm to the Hex.
Illicit drugs, poisons, they're perfectly willing to buy anything, especially stolen items, and while they're in town, many NPCs will suffer, either from petty (or not so petty!) thefts, being squeezed out of the market due to the Mafia's willingness to drop their prices while sending out leg-breakers to 'interfere' with the competitors, making them either shut up shop or force them to join the 'organisation'.
Now the players have an uncomfortable choice. Let the Varisian Mafia stay and reap the profit, or drive them off, earning their ire and dealing with an incredibly angry organisation that will now continously attempt to set down roots in this 'untapped market' while actively campaigning against the Players.
I see a 'Rare Spawn/Infamous Monster' as less that one creature you'll farm forever for that one drop that he'll never give you and more somewhere between a random world event and the culmination of hundreds of players' actions all being fed through the Computer and being spat back at them in some form or other.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Possibly the 'Rare Spawn/Infamous Monster' could be random world bosses?
The type, 'temperment' and actions are all dictated by what the players in the nearby Hexes are doing.
Players who are clear-felling and strip-mining could unleash an angry response from the Fae who live/lived in the area, a gigantic earth elemental that looks like somebody gave a small mountain some legs that is crushing their mining and logging camps, and is now going after the source of the problem.
The players' villages/towns. Time to call in some favours, bury the hatchets and try to get as many heroes around as you can to take this thing down before everyone gets flattened.
In another example, a Hex where a lot of wealth is being generated could come under the assault of a powerful Bandit Lord and his Henchmen, unusually tough, very well armed and mounted.
After several days of Merchants, NPC and Player alike, getting hammered in the outlying settlements and on the roads, players think this is just a group of bad-ass Players playing around, but when somebody runs into town and says their entire convoy just got butchered by five npcs, the gauntlet has been filled with chunks of adamantite and been used to b@#&+-slap the local populace.
Imagine players banding together, using their own resources to protect the Merchants as, without them, the gold 'level' of that Hex is steadily decreasing, meaning there is less chance for them to sell their own loot, let alone purchase repairs or materials as the NPCs start packing up to get away from the Bandit Lord.
Players who might not interact due to times online, different choices in activities keeping them apart and so forth now have impetus to connect and share their knowledge, if only to keep their Hex from going under.
A third option might be that Players have, through shenanigans and hard work, managed to make their Hex a very nice place to live. Very few monsters, all the right ammenities, decent taxes and a strong guard presence.
This, of course,...
A lot of your examples could be achieved by rival player characters, rather than heavy scripting of ‘random’ monsters/world bosses. So while nests of monsters will appear in a given hex, and continue to grow over time if left unchecked, it would be awesome if PC and guilds take the place of some of your suggestions.
Perhaps a group of nature loving characters/guild decide to strike out against what they see as the raping of mother nature. While another group sends spies throughout the land and eventually learn of a settlement who has discovered a wealthy resource. This band of outlaws and bandits then plan a strategic strike against caravans/resource hub and make off with all they can lay their hands on.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m excited by the prospect of nests of monsters growing and harassing settlements. However, nothing is more challenging than facing a human intelligence and trying to overcome it or react to it. Humans can be far more sneaky and inventive when compared to the scripted AI of NPC’s.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Illicit drugs, poisons, they're perfectly willing to buy anything, especially stolen items, and while they're in town, many NPCs will suffer, either from petty (or not so petty!) thefts, being squeezed out of the market due to the Mafia's
Now, I'm really thinking... Narcotics: How could they be added to the black market and lead to problems for nations/players/npc deleterious effects?
Eg from growing them in the poppy fields, to refining this stuff, to distributing it via spies and mafias etc into other nation states and making a tidy profit on this damaging racket?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted it be rare mobs that spawns randomly in a zone. They are slightly harder then the normal monsters but also holds loot that are a little bit better.Here's what happens in modern MMOs if the game features rare monsters that drop better than average loot:
A group designates some of its members as the Spot the Foozle Team. These players (often multiboxing so they don't lose any time playing their Mains) monitor the area in question 24x7.
The instant the Foozle is detected, word goes out through the guild's communication channels - private message boards, in-game chat, SMS broadcasts, ventrillo, etc. Within literally minutes, a large group is assembled. This group has been outfitted with exactly the best gear to kill the Foozle. They have killed the Foozle hundreds of times and have choreographed their actions into a flawless ballet - they're fast, and have a low risk of consuming resources beyond the minimum necessary to kill the Foozle.
They move to the location of the Foozle using the fastest and most efficient transport. They know the lay of the land and can take any available shortcuts, the fastest route, the best mount, etc.
Within the minimum time possible given the distance to travel, the team arrives and takes the Foozle down. The loot is extracted and transported to a group storage facility where it will be consumed, or resold in the best possible market almost immediately.
Meanwhile, if you are randomly walking around the area the Foozle spawns in, you may have a chance to spectate at this event, but if you come too close to the Foozle, another team of anti-ninja-looters will respond to kill you or otherwise keep you from interfering.
Still think this sounds fun?
RyanD
Not as a scenario per your description ;)
Still it's not nearly what I was thinking. The "overland" rare mobs had a fun function in EQ which is what I want to see again.
I think you consider these rare to be much more epic then they are in my mind.
I will try to describe what they are in my mind:
# They are rare monsters in that that they they have a unique name which makes you react "Ohhhh I have never seen that creature before, fun!". Being rare means that they are not bound to a specific spawnpoint (which would indeed be camped otherwise as the dungeon named mobs were in EQ. It also means that it may spawn maybe once every 4-8 hour depending what you think is appropriate.
# These rare monsters are nowhere epic in their appearance. They are just rare encounters that are SLIGHTLY harder then the normal monsters in the area. With slightly harder I mean they put up a harder fight which may be more close then the normal encounters and even some of them may require two people to be able to slay them.
# The loot from these monsters are just slightly better better then the normal ones. You could make these items bind on pickup as well. Slightly better rewards makes sense with slightly harder and defintely more rare monster. The kind of loot these rares can have can be very different from a weapon (to make a comparisation... say a normal mob drops a normal longsword then this rare one drops a masterwork version. The masterwork version gives a slight edge but are by no means a revolution to the players powers), fluff item, utility item or maybe a rare crafting resource etc.
So keep them simple and not so epic as per your description. They add a flavour to the game and it's always fun to stumble upon something you never seen before.
Also since these are not that much better then the regular loot then people will for sure not hunt for them 24/7 and especially not if they are bind on pickup.
Then you can have you more epic rare/unique encounters that involves player interaction but these are in no means related to the "rare" monsters I was thinking off.
Best Regards!
/Thrilled
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Goblin Squad Member
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An alternate idea for this...
"Rare X Spoor (hex Y)" is a very rare drop from mobs/harvest nodes/ or even spawns independently in hex Y. In itself it does nothing, but it can be brought to an inn (the inn?) in hex Y.
At the inn, one of two things happens, either a collect Z pieces of "Rare X Spoor (hex Y)" Rumor is created (which is a generic, unrewarded Contract), or if this Rumor is already created, it simply changes Z to (Z-1) on the Rumor.
When the Rumor is completed (Z=0), the Rumor simply becomes a "Great Hunt Contract" open to anyone (and everyone) until fulfilled. Rare X spawns at some random location in hex Y and begins acting as its kind dictates.
The value of Z is dictated by how often GW wants this mob to spawn. A Rare Elk which sometimes has rare leather crafting mat B might spawn daily and so requires 12 spoor which spawn all at once throughout the hex, or 1 every 2 hours. No special name is needed, only the knowledge that evidence has shown an unusually large Elk is in the area.
Alternately, a dragon may visit a hex once every month, as such, it might require 60 spoor to locate, 2 spawning daily. Some variation or randomness to this rate would keep things interesting...but a Great Hunt of some sort might always be happening, keeping it available to everyone.
I would also hope that these unique mobs might have more interesting behaviour, for instance, that Elk might have a large sight range and be fast and stealthy...so it will probably spot you before you spot it and be gone. Hunting it would require interesting tactics like driving it toward hidden hunters. Otherwise, even if it were spawned, if you were not expressly looking for it, you would probably never see it.
And make drops only slight more likely, Great Hunts should be more about the joy and coordination of the hunt as the drops (worthless trophies to hang in the inn are cool too)!
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Goblin Squad Member
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One one hand it's nice sure but...
From Everquest and FFXI (& FFXIV) experience, ryans team "foozle" theory is correct but he worded it nicely. The actual reality of what happens is much worse then what ryan described, you think you can stop them? If they are a static spawn in x hex? No way in HADES!
The only way you could pull it off would be if the monster random spawns all over the map in any hex, then that monster would also have to have a random loot list that drops various things based on the hex it has spawned into.
And even then with such a system the same thing ryan said would happen only that the team "foozle" would be bigger, cover a larger area, use exploits and bots to achieve the goal (which they would do in the simplest static application of the rare spawn).
Honestly keep the rare spawn, take away the item of rare value and the monster would become another monster, people wouldn't care if it was rare or normal.
However if you have gamers that game for challenge and not e-peen (which is rare these days) then you could get a case for having rare spawns with good mechanics in the open world but they would only be fought for the achievement associated with them or the challenge itself, the reward being very trivial.
So the case for rare spawns really comes down to, do you want harder monsters or do you want exploitable high quality loot with the possibility of inflating the economy?
Just have the monsters
1. Spawn on a random spot.
2. Get a higher chance of dropping equally good loot as the monsters around it, not better. Drop chance for a rare item to drop from a rare monster could equal drop chance from X monsters in the area. So killing a rare spawn would statistically give the same rare item as killing X normal monsters in the area. You would be thrilled if you met a rare spawn, but going only for that monster would not be as effective as killing only normal monsters.
3. Have some achievement tied to it. Killing X rare monsters could give you a title ''Y of the Hunt''. Killing all rare monsters in the game could give you the title Master of the Hunt for example. Of course this should be really, really hard to achieve. People love these kinds of things. It is a really cheap way to add a lot of downtime in themepark content, if GW wishes to extent that part of the game.
Of course these ideas doesn't really ''maximize human interaction''. But it adds variation in the daily life. If you are grinding monsters for something you need (which we probably will be doing in this game), suddenly seeing a cool rare monster sure breaks up the pace. It could give the profession ''Hunter'' additional things to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One one hand it's nice sure but...
From Everquest and FFXI (& FFXIV) experience, ryans team "foozle" theory is correct but he worded it nicely. The actual reality of what happens is much worse then what ryan described, you think you can stop them? If they are a static spawn in x hex? No way in HADES!
The only way you could pull it off would be if the monster random spawns all over the map in any hex, then that monster would also have to have a random loot list that drops various things based on the hex it has spawned into.
And even then with such a system the same thing ryan said would happen only that the team "foozle" would be bigger, cover a larger area, use exploits and bots to achieve the goal (which they would do in the simplest static application of the rare spawn).
Honestly keep the rare spawn, take away the item of rare value and the monster would become another monster, people wouldn't care if it was rare or normal.
However if you have gamers that game for challenge and not e-peen (which is rare these days) then you could get a case for having rare spawns with good mechanics in the open world but they would only be fought for the achievement associated with them or the challenge itself, the reward being very trivial.
So the case for rare spawns really comes down to, do you want harder monsters or do you want exploitable high quality loot with the possibility of inflating the economy?
"Harder monsters" is preferable, that way it adds a sense of danger and chance to PvE, no bad thing for atmosphere and a notable event also. The above is a really solid description of players who like to work out the system more than immerse in the game, it seems to me. I guess that's how some people get their enjoyment, by "combating the devs" indirectly? :O - and winning.
I was wondering:
Here's where I'd kind of like this idea to go: The random monster with the valuable loot that you memorably encounter and maybe get killed by a couple of times before you figure out how to kill it?
That's another player character.
...if we'd hear more on this? Perhaps "Certain alignments" will have "loot" that other alignments will need/want??
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One thing that would solve the in-game explanation for why a "rare" monster can be killed multiple times in persistent world, as well as requiring group activity: use the tarrasque. And similar monsters.
Have it be an in-game event every now and again when the tarrasque(/jabberwock/shoggoth/other infamous, giant, unique, technically immortal monster) terrorizes the countryside until a group of adventurers manages to kill it. And don't have it instanced or anything - it needs to be out in the world, stomping around, threatening anything it gets near. Sorry new adventurers who happened to be in the wrong place. (Maybe give them a break by not letting their corpses be lootable if killed by one of these or something.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
Players who reach the upper eschalons of the Dungeoneering or Survival skill paths, etc., can act as guides. If they already have the ability to lock down a dungeon so they can gather their friends to run through it, why not allow them to specialize in their discovery or traversal?
To avoid the Foozle problem, the monsters inside would not be particularly rare, but just harder to get to. This way players could assist each other to reach a specific mob, and also doubles as a great chance to implement a trap and natural hazard system for them to overcome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't understand what is so wrong with having rare mobs with better loot for folks to watch for. A lot of people had a lot of fun hunting them and in a world with open pvp you would have the added fun of more than one team, guild, company or whatever competing for them. Trying to be the first group to get to the rare spawns was a heck of a lot of fun for me. Am I the only one?
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Goblin Squad Member
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yes it does. My point is that maybe games have become too tame and homogenized. The trains, conflicts and striving to be top dog or just plain survive or even win were fun. The games i am playing now everyone is a winner but everyone is exactly the same in a lot of ways and to me that means there are no challenges and no real winners. I go thru the game winning each little battle and crafting things that are no different or better than the next person. No healers needed, no buffs, no need for anyone else at all. Just go from place to place and do your own thing. The epic battles, the epic quests, the trophies were exhilarating. Even getting that rare recipe for something excellent that gave a little edge in the fight against hostile opponents or a dangerous world or made you relatively rich in game was exciting. I just don't see what's wrong with a social set of some kind coordinating kills for the good stuff. Random timers, random fight mechanics, random locations would make it hard to farm but even more challenging. Having to watch your flank for the sneaky, underhanded worms just adds a new dimension of hardness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ya, I've seen that trend too in theme park MMOs. They come out with a new quest chain and say their intention is to make it extremely difficult, and they succeed. Only the best groups who really work together are able to get through it. The community throws a fit, the developers make it easier, and then easier, and then easier. The "elitists" who were enjoying the challenge complain that the challenge is gone, they get accused of being "elitist jerks" and the whole thing goes down in a big flame war.
Then a new update comes out with harder stuff and the cycle starts all over again.
But to be honest, I don't know how I'd handle it differently if I were in the developers' shoes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ya, I've seen that trend too in theme park MMOs. They come out with a new quest chain and say their intention is to make it extremely difficult, and they succeed. Only the best groups who really work together are able to get through it. The community throws a fit, the developers make it easier, and then easier, and then easier. The "elitists" who were enjoying the challenge complain that the challenge is gone, they get accused of being "elitist jerks" and the whole thing goes down in a big flame war.
Then a new update comes out with harder stuff and the cycle starts all over again.
But to be honest, I don't know how I'd handle it differently if I were in the developers' shoes.
Well don't cater to the whiners I say... simply give a statement sorry if you can't manage this encounter then you a.)either continue to improve and learn the encounter b.) move to another encounter since there are many that are much easier then the one you are bashing your heads bloody against.
Players need to learn that they cannot be the ubergods all the time and easily pull off any encounter they meet! I really hope that there will be encounters that will take YEARS until the first group manage to take it out. What an accomplishment that would be then!
This has nothing to do with elitist thinking, it's all about a realistic thinking where you character are not some kind of demigods and instead even you might hero have your superior enemies!
/T
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ya, I've seen that trend too in theme park MMOs. They come out with a new quest chain and say their intention is to make it extremely difficult, and they succeed. Only the best groups who really work together are able to get through it. The community throws a fit, the developers make it easier, and then easier, and then easier. The "elitists" who were enjoying the challenge complain that the challenge is gone, they get accused of being "elitist jerks" and the whole thing goes down in a big flame war.
Then a new update comes out with harder stuff and the cycle starts all over again.
But to be honest, I don't know how I'd handle it differently if I were in the developers' shoes.
Well don't cater to the whiners I say... simply give a statement sorry if you can't manage this encounter then you a.)either continue to improve and learn the encounter b.) move to another encounter since there are many that are much easier then the one you are bashing your heads bloody against.
Players need to learn that they cannot be the ubergods all the time and easily pull off any encounter they meet! I really hope that there will be encounters that will take YEARS until the first group manage to take it out. What an accomplishment that would be then!
This has nothing to do with elitist thinking, it's all about a realistic thinking where you character are not some kind of demigods and instead even you might hero have your superior enemies!
/T
If we're talking about a rare monster found in a dungeon for example, then I think part of the conditions of "rarity" for said monster MUST BE:
1. Dungeon is very tricky to find
2. Dungeon is very tricky to progress in
3. Dungeon has a potential for party to make significant losses in search of said rare monster
4. Rare monster when finally encountered, takes some working out, perhaps devs can even change diffeent parameters for it, so different challenges are posed/cannot be totally prepared for.
-- The emphasis I hope is not so much the rare mob, but the fact that anythng associated with the dungeon and mob leads to taking risks that you know might bite you at any moment. The problem with the themepark dungeon puzzles is that they are just tightly scripted and if you die, you respawn for another go and so on. That's more like a platform game experience than a mmorpg where time's arrow is ever needling you in the back for your actions?
I guess if rare mobs == other players: The combinations can go off the scale using:
1. player themselves
2. Skills of player
3. equipment and unique crafting of player
4. randomness of player's corpse looting?
5. player's fellow party members
6. context of encounter
7. alignment/political aspect
etc: That might allow for the rare mob + rare loot combo without the foozle team stealing the show everytime. Am I right??
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree. Groups, companies, organizations of players should strive against each other for the top spot in game. Not just in economic arenas but in actual territory and accomplishments. There should actually BE a top spot in the game world instead of everyone able to do everything and all by themselves. There should be things that can only be beaten or accomplished by all people working together. Huge things. Hard things. Unexpected and unusual things. Things that are added by a game company that takes an ongoing hand in the game world. Not just a "put it in motion and step back" type thing. Remember gm run events? Or added content every 6 months or so?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest example I can think of is from DDO when the Titan Raid first came out. It's not that the boss had too many hit points or did too much damage, it's that the end fight was really complicated and required solid cooperation from the whole party. Months went by and nobody had beaten it yet, so Turbine announced they were working on a change to make it easier. Just before they launched the patch to fix it, Legion beat it. It didn't take great gear or the best characters, although Legion had that, it just took cooperation and timing the events properly. And they are still the only guild to have beaten the original titan raid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest example I can think of is from DDO when the Titan Raid first came out. It's not that the boss had too many hit points or did too much damage, it's that the end fight was really complicated and required solid cooperation from the whole party. Months went by and nobody had beaten it yet, so Turbine announced they were working on a change to make it easier. Just before they launched the patch to fix it, Legion beat it. It didn't take great gear or the best characters, although Legion had that, it just took cooperation and timing the events properly. And they are still the only guild to have beaten the original titan raid.
This is an excellent example of how the traditional thinking on Rare or High End raid content just doesn't maximize human interaction. If only 10-40 people out of an entire game's population can complete any given encounter, this is exactly the opposite of maximizing interactions. I'm not saying this type of content shouldn't be available, but we need to come up with a different paradigm to work from for PFO.
What is it we like most about these Rare spawn monsters?
Is it just the flair and spark of encountering something unique and more challenging?
Is it the promise of better loot or rewards?
What if the whole purpose to a Rare spawn wasn't to fulfill either of these two nominal paradigms?
Are we concerned with breaking down the difference between the Open World Random location Rare Spawn, or the Named High end content Rare?
What if the capacity to even find rare spawns was a specialized skill, and the point to defeating them fulfilled the goal of a merit badge or endcap? The materiels to supply the specialized equipment required to find these Rares might be something only a large group could assemble, much like only an organized effort can build a settlement.
Personally I've always envisioned the PvE content for PFO to be more along a traditional, even generic, design. Your scouts find an encampment of Orcs (or Goblins, Bandits, Ogres, Hill Giants, etc) and either snipe off a few for minor gain, or assemble an adventuring group to make continual assaults on the camp, fighting greater and greater challenges up until the Chieftain is killed and the tribe broken. Then the encampment can be repurposed into a variety of new things, from a resource gathering operation or a spot for a watchtower, or whatever. In this model, you get your "rare" named NPCs to murderate and enhanced loot to pilfer, as well as supplying your Charter with a new location to expand into, or sell the location of, or whatever. I"m sure there are dozens of variations on that basic model that can be applied that can keep it fresh, and that's ignoring the complications of rival Charters mounting their own assaults, running interference, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think part of the problem is the expectaion of "monsters" as an expectation of "gaining loot" rather then "monsters" as a dangerous thing to be feared that can disrupt and damage normal activity in an area.
Look at it this way, a great white shark (very dangerous) is not economicaly more valuable then a blue-fin tuna (generaly harmless to humans)....but the presence of a great white shark cruising off the beaches in an area, especialy if it has actualy attacked humans...can have a devastating effect on normal economic activity (tourism) in that area, requiring people to come in and enact measures to deal with that threat.
So rather then "monsters" simply being a substitute for $$$. They should be an actual threat. I would propose the following for "Rare Monsters":
- Powerfull enough to require a team of skilled individuals working together to defeat.
- Dangerous and agressive enough to kill an unprepaired lone character (e.g. resource gatherer) that encounters it.
- Negative effect on economic activity in the local area. E.G. common laberours don't want to work resource gathering, construction or other sorts of camps for fear of encountering it so such activity grounds to a halt or is drasticaly reduced till the threat is dealt with.
- If not dealt with quickly enough spawns lessor cascade effects (disease, wandering undead, lessor monsters) that also needs to be dealt with.
- Is both truely random and truely rare. After a spawn is defeated it goes into a random offset that can be days, weeks or even months before it reappears. Monsters can have prefered terrain TYPES so if a hex has a specific dominant terrain type it may be weighted to be more likely to appear there, but the actual hex it reappears in is random.
- GW can have a number of different such Monsters set in "hoppers" which they can add, subtract, edit or change the frequency of as desired.
- Monster does not in ITSELF provide treasure/rewards that are of significantly greater value then other types economic activity.
So the idea here is that the monster isn't a significant resource it's a nuiscence and a threat to economic activity within the area, one which the people primarly engaged in such activity aren't usualy well equiped to deal with themselves. Therefore they must seek out and hire (human interaction) a team of specialists who are capable of dealing with it to return thier activity to normal. The main reward for the specialists is NOT what the monster drops itself but the price they can negotiate for thier services (player driven economy) from the locals impacted by the monster. The monster spawning cascade effects provides opportunities for other players beyond the monster hunters getting involved with the event...even as solo's and involving other sorts of skill sets. The fact that such events occur at such widely dispersed time intervals and map locations makes it very difficult to reliably "farm" such events..... and it means that different groups with different affiliations will be impacted by the event from one time to the next which can change the nature of the interactions involved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1 GrumpMel's description. I think Ryan mentioned something in short to this effect: The ripple effect of stirring up a mob or monster and if you do not have the specialism or force to defeat it, it/they will rampage and cause havok to nearby settlements etc. Perfect!
I notice in GW2 there are some massive Dragons which are finally doing the "dragons" justice at least in terms of size. That said, what would be infinitely more impressive again, is "intelligent" Dragons. I can't help but admire Smaug in "The Hobbit" the most in this respect not for the way he burns down an entire town, but because of his conversation with Bilbo.
An idea I've always liked in a mmorpg is a particular type of sentient mob at the top of the power pyramid (perhaps only exerting soft power even) that could be run in-house and set players doing things/fighting each other. Perhaps a Dragon or Demon. The key is not to inform players that this thing is actually being driven by another person (and even acting as if it were a specially rare mob (using set scripts to set quests even etc)), but just appears to spread it's own influence/designs and inject some chaos and randomness into the world. A true RARE MOB.
I guess dragons (or demons) are a good example, but not the only possible one. But certainly this sort of power difference would make a particular mob an order of magnitude in influence/compliance/power that much more epic AND cause of that "ripple effect" that makes it worth the while being one of a kind. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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yet another +1 to Mel's idea. I personally am so sick of the monsters as a walking slot machine. The 2 models of monster I am so utterly sick of is
1. X being contained in a dungeon in which you only note his existance when you WANT him just for the loot.
2. Overland monsters of which other people killing is viewed as an inconvenience to you.
I want to see monsters that a company would beg or hire other adventuring groups to remove, not monsters that a company would wish to stop others from killing because it is "their loot".
Personally the rare or exceptional loot isn't something I care much on. A monster that people want dead because it is actually harming people, now that I can get behind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. It only comes out at night.Anyone else start singing Maneater in their head?
*raises hand*
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Goblin Squad Member
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The above is a really solid description of players who like to work out the system more than immerse in the game, it seems to me. I guess that's how some people get their enjoyment, by "combating the devs" indirectly? :O - and winning.
You'd be correct.
There are many players that get satisfaction from simply combating the elements of the game to one extent or another. It isn't really "combating the devs" per-say but more taking the elements of the game and using them to the extent that it seems like manipulation of it.
Being frank they aren't breaking the game, they are playing it but I guess you'd say they are "power playing" the game at such a hardcore level that it seems mind-boggling to the normal player how they are understand the game to such a level.
In a sandbox environment you expect it however, it's one of those things to adds to the dynamic and community of the game.
We saw a true "combating the devs" with eve a while back, it's when devs partake in the universe they create that you can call it "combating the devs" until you get to that point where the players rise up against the creators it's not even fighting back but using what was made to absolute precision.
And immersion happens on many different levels in video games, so they might be immersed in the game and playing it to that hardcore extent ;)