By definition, is an "Evil Outsider" always evil? (Ranger / Paladin hybrid question)

[davidernst11]

As the subject says, is an "evil outsider" always of evil alignment? Is it possible for a succubus or other demon to relinquish its evil ways, become neutral or good alignment and still be considered an "evil outsider"?

First of all, it would make good flavor to have a scenario in which a demon is actually on the good guy's side, for whatever reason. I would like to write something like that.

Secondly, I was looking at the Ranger spell, "Instant Enemy". It's an ok spell for a Ranger, but I was thinking it would be so much more valuable for a Paladin/Ranger multiclassed build.

Let's say you are an 8th level Paladin. You take a level of Ranger and make your favored enemy "Outsiders (Evil)". You buy a wand of "Instant Enemy". Here is the spell description:

Quote:

With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.

Let's say that there is a Neutral Elemental with DR 10/- on the field. You use your wand of Instant Enemy on the elemental, and you now consider it to be your favored enemy of "Outsider (Evil)". Now you would be able to smite it, correct? You now get +2 on attack and damage for your favored enemy bonus and another +16 on damage rolls for smiting it, in addition to bypassing any damage reduction.

Of course, this wouldn't work if "Outsiders (Evil)" aren't always evil. If it was just an evil character (something besides undead, evil dragons, or evil outsiders), turning it into an evil outsider would be a bonus, so it's still a good deal, but it looks to me that by RAW, you could turn anything into an evil outsider, ready to be smited. Even Lawful Good characters. No?

[wraithstrike]

It is always evil, until the GM says otherwise.

[davidernst11]

If a succubus turned good though, would it not then be an "Outsider (Good)"?

[blackbloodtroll]

Evil subtype means the creature is made of evil.

So, it is weird to have a creature with that subtype, and not be evil.

[Mikaze]

There aren't any rules set in stone on that particular matter, and a number of writers have gone in different directions with the idea. For example, WotC made a LG succubus paladin NPC during 3.5 that still retained the [Evil] subtype.

Some GMs might have the subtype lost or changed as soon as a fiend changed its true core alignment(same thing for fallen angels), while others might have the removal of the subtype be a quest in and of itself. It could really go any number of ways, depending on how the GM runs it.

[Fatespinner]

I think one line from the paladin's smite evil ability kills your entire argument:

PRD wrote:

If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

Even if it is being treated as an outsider with the evil subtype, if the target is not evil-aligned, the smite does nothing.

[MassivePauldrons]

I believe they're always Evil in their base form as their form is a merely manifestation of their nature and their power. My general interpretation of outsider convention is that if they redeem/corrupt themselves they become something akin to their equivalent within the creature selection of their changed alignment. Such that a Pit Fiend with a change of heart might become a Solar, Planetar or something. Or Suck Bus might become a Lillend.

Unless they are a unique entity I don't think they retain their specific appearance/abilities.

Though that said I don't believe there are any hard fast rules for what you describe(Someone feel free to correct me if they know more.) so if you want a NG Succubus in your game as a DM go ahead, maybe she's hella into chastity now lol.

[davidernst11]

Fatespinner wrote:

I think one line from the paladin's smite evil ability kills your entire argument:

Even if it is being treated as an outsider with the evil subtype, if the target is not evil-aligned, the smite does nothing.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to figure out.

I'm pretty sure that by RAW, if you are fighting an evil wizard, you can consider them an evil outsider and double your smite damage on them, but it looks like you wouldn't be given Smite Anything.

Still, I'm excited about the possibility of having Evil Outsider characters that aren't evil, or vice versa.

[Marthian]

From what I read of the template (if I recall correctly), it suggests that if they change alignment, they still retain their Evil Subtype.

With that in mind, it does HIGHLY suggest that evil outsiders can become a different alignment, however demons will still be demons, they aren't going to just suddenly become an angel.

[davidernst11]

Oh, but Fatespinner, the reason I asked is that the description of the spell says, "You treat the target as your favored enemy for all purposes." "For all purposes" to me means that you would consider it to have all of the qualities of your favored enemy, and if Outsiders (Evil) are always evil, the target would be evil. Thus, smiting would work.

[Aelryinth]

Correct.

Think of it as training to fight all kinds of enemies who fall under the heading as having the evil subtype.

Just because they aren't evil alignment doesn't mean they are not the kind of opponent you've trained to fight. Your smite may not work, but favored enemy is not a smite...smites go against alignment, and FE goes against what the creature IS.

==Aelryinth

[8 Red Wizards]

I have seen a Good NPC Succubus in a mod before, but it still had the Evil subtype. I don't think monsters alignment affects it's subtype, but this was also something from 3.X times.

[The Black Bard]

Alignment is separate from subtype. Just having the [Evil] or [Good] subtype doesn't make you immune to a Helm of Opposite Alignment. See Pact Stone Pyramid for an example thereof. (Surprise Tangent: Technically, the alignment shift of that helm isn't considered a mind-effect, and works on undead.)

Having an alignment subtype generally means you are made out of the physical embodiment of said alignment, which means that almost always you would be that alignment. Much like a fire elemental, being made of fire, likes to burn, ignite, smolder, and smoke, a devil likes to bribe, deceive, enslave, dominate, and abuse. Exceptions can exist, but a good devil or demon should be as rare as an arsonist water elemental or an air elemental that refuses to live anywhere except small caves.

As for using the Wand of Instant Enemy in conjunction with Smite Evil, it would work in some cases. Mainly because it makes YOU treat THEM as the type for the purposes of YOUR abilities. It does not actually make them the type, with any changes that might bring. Turning them into type:dragon doesn't make them suddenly immune to sleep.

Example: Instant Enemy to Evil Outsider, now favored enemy bonuses apply. Smite however is based on hitting an evil target, regardless of type. If the target isn't actually evil, no effect. If the target is, then you get the extra damage for it being an Evil Outsider, as per Smite Evil.

[davidernst11]

Very interesting. I have Pact Stone Pyramid and will have to look through it.

I always thought that an Evil (Outsider) was just a being that came from the planes of hell, I never thought of it as them being made of pure evil. Since there are many outsiders that leave the planes of hell and live in the material plane, I see no reason why a devil or daemon may adapt to a culture or way of life, realizing that he should adapt to become part of the community. Or perhaps there is a demon who was tortured and ruined in his home plane and decides that he likes beings that would treat him better, thus attempting to adapt to them.

I think there are all kinds of reasons why an outsider could relinquish it's natural alignment.

[Fatespinner]

davidernst11 wrote:

Oh, but Fatespinner, the reason I asked is that the description of the spell says, "You treat the target as your favored enemy for all purposes." "For all purposes" to me means that you would consider it to have all of the qualities of your favored enemy, and if Outsiders (Evil) are always evil, the target would be evil. Thus, smiting would work.

To me, you treat its type as Outsider (Evil) and it stops there. What if your favored enemy is Constructs? Does the target of your Instant Enemy spell become immune to crits? If your favored enemy is Undead, is your Instant Enemy no longer subject to energy drain? Is it damaged by your Lay on Hands?

Don't over-analyze it too much. It changes the type and only the type. Nothing else should be assumed.

[The Black Bard]

davidernst11 wrote:

I think there are all kinds of reasons why an outsider could relinquish it's natural alignment.

A lot of the Paizo staff are big fans of Planescape, the 2nd edition setting that expanded greatly upon the Outer Planes and the creatures that exist there. (Technically, 3rd edition used the same rules, as it was based in Greyhawk as the default setting, and Greyhawk's outer planes were the ones detailed in Planescape.) While Pathfinder has shifted its cosmos for the sake of creativity and copyright, so far, it seems most of the core conceits of that setting still apply. A big one is that demons and devils are literally made of evil (and angels and archons are made of good). Some are twisted and warped into their forms out of the damned souls of evil mortals (sometimes multiple souls for one devil), some just seems to rise out of the plane's material fully formed. It is important to note that few evil souls survive these transformations with any trace of the original personality or memories intact. The new fiend is effectively a new being.

And while you are as entitled to your perspective, as it is "everybody's game", permit me a last attempt to sway you to my own. As per PF rules, elementals are now a subtype of outsider, instead of their own type as in 3.5. It would be strange if a Fire elemental suddenly decided to give up burning, or a water elemental chose to live in the desert. Strange at best, suicidal at worst.

A devil, forged from the order and evil of the Hells, is a being that has never known genuine kindness, a mother's love, a father's guidance, a best friend's company, or anything else even remotely good, caring, or supportive. Their "childhoods" are filled with physical and emotional punishment for the slightest failing, forging alliances that are to be abandoned whenever more advantageous, sometimes even backstabbing their own allies if it profits them. They know fear, domination, the pleasure of seeing others kneel, the shame of having to kneel themselves, and every fiber of their being screams at them "this is the truth of existance".

Archons are even stranger, if you think of it, as they are the opposite. Betrayal of an alliance and friendship would be unthinkable, to treat another with anything less than kindness would be nauseating, and the idea that at that second, a sentient being is suffering somewhere, would be a horrifying thought that drives them to constant vigilance and protection of those around them.

As the husband of a social welfare worker, I can attest that even if you know you want something more, getting out of your current situation is incredibly hard. Only the rarest of the rare would fall or ascend outside of their normal alignments. That said, it does happen. Whether led by example, tricked by cunning, or through their own will, there are the rare examples of outsiders deviant from their inborn alignments. The devil who realizes his enslaved workers are more productive when better fed and their sickness cured, may be on the first step of a long road to redemption. But every step of the way his own essence, his very being, will be screaming at him to shackle, to punish, to make examples of, to dominate.

As a related aside, check out the Pathfinder Wiki for some more info on Outer Planes. Also, the PF book the Great Beyond has a lot of great info.

Sorry for the derailment of the thread.

[Lord Pendragon]

MassivePauldrons wrote:

I believe they're always Evil in their base form as their form is a merely manifestation of their nature and their power. My general interpretation of outsider convention is that if they redeem/corrupt themselves they become something akin to their equivalent within the creature selection of their changed alignment. Such that a Pit Fiend with a change of heart might become a Solar, Planetar or something. Or Suck Bus might become a Lillend.

This is how I've always treated them as well. Angels and demons are the same thing, basically, creatures of spirit and morality, rather than physical beings. Their physicality is a representation of their natures, which are either [Good] or [Evil].

An Angel that falls becomes a Demon. A Demon that repents becomes an Angel again.

[Derek Vande Brake]

This is a thorny subject, and I'm not 100% sure that PF follows the same rules, but...

In 3.5, outsiders could change alignment, though it was *extremely* unlikely. But it did happen. For example, in addition to the LG succubus paladin mentioned above, the Planescape computer game also had a LN (with good leanings) succubus cleric.

That said, they were still made of the stuff of the original alignment. A demonic paladin would be LG, but would still have the Chaotic and Evil subtypes. And this was significant, because spells and effects still treated them as though they were evil. The demonic paladin would ping on a detect good or detect law spell, sure, but would also ping on a detect evil or detect chaos spell as well. And yes, they could be smited (smote? smitten?) - such a creature would suffer all the worst effects of Holy Smite, Chaos Hammer, Order's Wrath, and Unholy Blight.

You also have to pay attention to an effect's wording. If it says "evil" it effects the creature, but if it says "nongood" it wouldn't.

[Odraude]

There is a precedent in Pathfinder with the Asuras. In their section:

Bestiary 3 wrote:

Rarely, however, contemplation on the nature of the multiverse or a desire for something more than eternal strife causes an asura to choose a different course. Such asuras meditate to become closer to that which they once sought to destroy, purifying themselves of their soul-burning hatred. Redeemed asuras are seldom good or religious, but they do wander the planes, dispensing wisdom and working against wanton destruction. Evil asuras loathe these traitors, and seek them out to destroy them with teeming fervor.

I suppose the cool thing about outsiders is that they seem almost mutable, changing and molding themselves with their emotions, personalities, and magic. Who's to say a LG succubus doesn't end up turning into a deva?

[Mikaze]

"What can change the nature of a man/angel/fiend?"

Spoiler:

"Belief."

[Odraude]

Mikaze wrote:

"What can change the nature of a man/angel/fiend?"

** spoiler omitted **

Or crazy, stupid, unabashed love.

[Chemlak]

Evil Subtype wrote:

Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is.

'Nuff said.

[Lifat]

I understand this is a holy necro, but I needed it to be said:

Quote:

Evil Subtype

This subtype is usually applied to Outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil Outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.

This text implies that an evil subtype can attain a different alignment. However it spells out in no uncertain terms that you will be considered both evil and whatever alignment you have for all abilities.

That means even if you are LG with evil subtype, then holy word will affect you as if you were evil, so will smite. And unholy word will ALSO affect you due to your alignment.

Now. Getting the Half-Fiend template does not grant you evil subtype

[Sysryke]

Your necro was ninja'd 8 and a half years ago. Read the post directly above :p

[Ryze Kuja]

This necro has inspired the bard in me to write a masterpiece ballad.

"Let it go! let it goooo!
Don't necro it back anymore
Let it go! let it goOOOOO!!
Turn away because it's already been answered
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the Evil Outsiders rage on
The evil subtype never bothered me anyway"

That's kinda catchy. I should publish this before someone else does.

[Claxon]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

This necro has inspired the bard in me to write a masterpiece ballad.

"Let it go! let it goooo!
Don't necro it back anymore
Let it go! let it goOOOOO!!
Turn away because it's already been answered
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the Evil Outsiders rage on
The evil subtype never bothered me anyway"

That's kinda catchy. I should publish this before someone else does.

You should write an Pathfinder musical!

[Ryze Kuja]

Claxon wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

This necro has inspired the bard in me to write a masterpiece ballad.

"Let it go! let it goooo!
Don't necro it back anymore
Let it go! let it goOOOOO!!
Turn away because it's already been answered
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the Evil Outsiders rage on
The evil subtype never bothered me anyway"

That's kinda catchy. I should publish this before someone else does.

You should write an Pathfinder musical!

Lol :)

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

This necro has inspired the bard in me to write a masterpiece ballad.

"Let it go! let it goooo!
Don't necro it back anymore
Let it go! let it goOOOOO!!
Turn away because it's already been answered
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the Evil Outsiders rage on
The evil subtype never bothered me anyway"

That's kinda catchy. I should publish this before someone else does.

You have a beautiful singing voice, but Disney's pitfiends on retainer need a word with you.

They've informed us that we may have your corpse afterwards. Do you have a preference between abhominal and festrog?

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

Lifat wrote:

I understand this is a holy necro, but I needed it to be said...

All Necromancy is appropriate and justified.

[Ryze Kuja]

Thread Necromancers' Guild wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

This necro has inspired the bard in me to write a masterpiece ballad.

"Let it go! let it goooo!
Don't necro it back anymore
Let it go! let it goOOOOO!!
Turn away because it's already been answered
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the Evil Outsiders rage on
The evil subtype never bothered me anyway"

That's kinda catchy. I should publish this before someone else does.

You have a beautiful singing voice, but Disney's pitfiends on retainer need a word with you.

They've informed us that we may have your corpse afterwards. Do you have a preference between abhominal and festrog?

Can I make a special request that I be raised as a swarm of undead sentient squirrels? With the evil subtype of course.

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Thread Necromancers' Guild wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

This necro has inspired the bard in me to write a masterpiece ballad.

"Let it go! let it goooo!
Don't necro it back anymore
Let it go! let it goOOOOO!!
Turn away because it's already been answered
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the Evil Outsiders rage on
The evil subtype never bothered me anyway"

That's kinda catchy. I should publish this before someone else does.

You have a beautiful singing voice, but Disney's pitfiends on retainer need a word with you.

They've informed us that we may have your corpse afterwards. Do you have a preference between abhominal and festrog?

Can I make a special request that I be raised as a swarm of undead sentient squirrels? With the evil subtype of course.

Done and done! We'll send out our care package of stickers, ironic tee, and jar of humanoid teeth shortly.

[Claxon]

Wait, I didn't realize undeath came with so many perks and free things.

Sign me up! I can't wait to see the end of everything!

[UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm]

*rrrrRAAAAAAAAUUGHHHhhhhhh***

Behold, for We have emerged from the beyond, stronGAR THAN EVAAAAR! And with saber teeth!

The Swarm will consume you all and raise you in the Perfection that is Undeath!

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:

*rrrrRAAAAAAAAUUGHHHhhhhhh***

Behold, for We have emerged from the beyond, stronGAR THAN EVAAAAR! And with saber teeth!

The Swarm will consume you all and raise you in the Perfection that is Undeath!

It's alive! Alive!

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

Claxon wrote:

Wait, I didn't realize undeath came with so many perks and free things.

Sign me up! I can't wait to see the end of everything!

Death is just the beginning...

[Tangent101]

Thread Necromancers' Guild wrote:

UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:

*rrrrRAAAAAAAAUUGHHHhhhhhh***

Behold, for We have emerged from the beyond, stronGAR THAN EVAAAAR! And with saber teeth!

The Swarm will consume you all and raise you in the Perfection that is Undeath!

It's alive! Alive!

If it's alive then it's not Necromancy.

[Chell Raighn]

Tangent101 wrote:

Thread Necromancers' Guild wrote:

UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:

*rrrrRAAAAAAAAUUGHHHhhhhhh***

Behold, for We have emerged from the beyond, stronGAR THAN EVAAAAR! And with saber teeth!

The Swarm will consume you all and raise you in the Perfection that is Undeath!

It's alive! Alive!

If it's alive then it's not Necromancy.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that... after all the ultimate goal of necromancy is to create everlasting life... besides... we all know cure spells were developed by necromancers, clerics just didn’t approve of something for healing be classified as necromancy, so they invented the healing sub-school of conjuration to mask the fact that they all practice necromancy every time they heal us.