Since it seems to be a hot topic right now, I've got a question for all the optimizers out there about a (relatively) simple change.
Rule: The attribute adjustments from the Fused Eidolon always count as temporary adjustments. Therefore, to take a feat, the Summoner's base attributes must allow them to qualify for that feat.
Honestly, why?
You want the summoner half to have to have str 13? why? How does it make the DMs job easier???
There are a lot of ways to strip the synth from the summoner, and if they have dumped both str and dex, it will only take a couple rounds to obliterate their face...
I guess the question is this; What do you find troublesome about the current rules in particular? Maybe we can help more if you give more info :)
Are you intending to place the same ruling on headbands and belts?
Well, the basic point is pretty obvious. Every broken Synthesist build dumps physical attributes except Con (which doesn't work by the way - you use the Eidolon's constitution, so if it's lower than your own you lose HP when you fuse), usually down to 7. Then they take feats they could never qualify for without it, getting effective point buys up in the 50s or so.
I like the flavors permitted by the synthesist, but I do agree that that's more than a bit much. In general, how the belt would work is that it would count as permanent, so you could still use it to qualify for feats, and it would add to whatever form you're currently in.
Chris Kenney wrote: Well, the basic point is pretty obvious. Every broken Synthesist build dumps physical attributes except Con (which doesn't work by the way - you use the Eidolon's constitution, so if it's lower than your own you lose HP when you fuse), usually down to 7. Then they take feats they could never qualify for without it, getting effective point buys up in the 50s or so.
I like the flavors permitted by the synthesist, but I do agree that that's more than a bit much. In general, how the belt would work is that it would count as permanent, so you could still use it to qualify for feats, and it would add to whatever form you're currently in.
A better ruling would be the synthesist only gets the bonuses to abilities from the Eidolon suit. No more dumping and works just like polymorph.
Maybe give them the average of the two scores since they're "fuzed"?
20 STR Eidolon + 8 STR summoner = 14 STR.
Gignere wrote: Chris Kenney wrote: Well, the basic point is pretty obvious. Every broken Synthesist build dumps physical attributes except Con (which doesn't work by the way - you use the Eidolon's constitution, so if it's lower than your own you lose HP when you fuse), usually down to 7. Then they take feats they could never qualify for without it, getting effective point buys up in the 50s or so.
I like the flavors permitted by the synthesist, but I do agree that that's more than a bit much. In general, how the belt would work is that it would count as permanent, so you could still use it to qualify for feats, and it would add to whatever form you're currently in.
A better ruling would be the synthesist only gets the bonuses to abilities from the Eidolon suit. No more dumping and works just like polymorph. I actually considered that, and it just compounds the problem. Instead of dumping physical attributes, you dump mental attributes, and end up with even more disgustingly high physical scores. If there's a skill you can't live without, just drop an evolution point on it. It's entirely possible to end up with fused-form stats of 24/18/13/7/7/14 without a single evolution point spent (at a 20 point-buy.)
Chris Kenney wrote: Gignere wrote: Chris Kenney wrote: Well, the basic point is pretty obvious. Every broken Synthesist build dumps physical attributes except Con (which doesn't work by the way - you use the Eidolon's constitution, so if it's lower than your own you lose HP when you fuse), usually down to 7. Then they take feats they could never qualify for without it, getting effective point buys up in the 50s or so.
I like the flavors permitted by the synthesist, but I do agree that that's more than a bit much. In general, how the belt would work is that it would count as permanent, so you could still use it to qualify for feats, and it would add to whatever form you're currently in.
A better ruling would be the synthesist only gets the bonuses to abilities from the Eidolon suit. No more dumping and works just like polymorph. I actually considered that, and it just compounds the problem. Instead of dumping physical attributes, you dump mental attributes, and end up with even more disgustingly high physical scores. If there's a skill you can't live without, just drop an evolution point on it. It's entirely possible to end up with fused-form stats of 24/18/13/7/7/14 without a single evolution point spent (at a 20 point-buy.) You can't get that spread at least not first level.
When I mean bonus abilities I mean just what you get from evolutions and from leveling the eidolon.
So at level 1 the most you can get is just +2 str, and that costs you 2 evolution points. At level 2 you get +3 str and +1 dex so on and so forth.
Chris Kenney wrote: ...and end up with even more disgustingly high physical scores. Have you even read the synthesist? The physical stats are replaced not added on.
Call me confused, but how is the summoner taking feats that he doesn't qualify for if he's dumping his physical stats? Yeah, when you fuse with the eidolon, you use his physical ability scores, but your actual stats are too low to qualify for feats like Power Attack.
Elamdri wrote: Call me confused, but how is the summoner taking feats that he doesn't qualify for if he's dumping his physical stats? Yeah, when you fuse with the eidolon, you use his physical ability scores, but your actual stats are too low to qualify for feats like Power Attack. The fused stats are treated as any other temporary stat boosters. After 24 hours they qualify for feats. There is nothing in the rules that say a synthesist can't wear their suits for 24 hours.
So they can use their fused stats to qualify for feats. However, they lose access to the feats if they are not fused which is only when they are asleep.
I house ruled this issue the moment I read the archetype and have had no issues of any significance with the archetype. It is an unfortunate exploit of the poorly worded RAW, in my opinion (you're welcome to your own, just don't expect me to agree with you, as I don't expect folks to agree with me).
My original idea was to change the core rule allowing this, but ultimately it seemed easier just to change the text causing the issue in the first place, as the synthesist was the only class I've noticed with the problem (there are probably others).
Fused Eidolon: Edited the first sentence of the second paragraph to read as follows: "While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma); the eidolon's physical ability scores may not be used to meet the prerequisites of feats, traits, or prestige classes (other limitations may apply as discovered)."
Hope that helps.
Gignere wrote: Elamdri wrote: Call me confused, but how is the summoner taking feats that he doesn't qualify for if he's dumping his physical stats? Yeah, when you fuse with the eidolon, you use his physical ability scores, but your actual stats are too low to qualify for feats like Power Attack. The fused stats are treated as any other temporary stat boosters. After 24 hours they qualify for feats. There is nothing in the rules that say a synthesist can't wear their suits for 24 hours.
So they can use their fused stats to qualify for feats. However, they lose access to the feats if they are not fused which is only when they are asleep. But how are you sleeping? Are you just going to guess when you level up and not sleep for 2-3 days so you can be sure that you'll have had your eidolon on for 24 hours at the time you level?
It just seems to me like a normal synthesist is never going to have his eidolon on for 24 hrs in order to qualify because of sleeping.
Elamdri wrote: Gignere wrote: Elamdri wrote: Call me confused, but how is the summoner taking feats that he doesn't qualify for if he's dumping his physical stats? Yeah, when you fuse with the eidolon, you use his physical ability scores, but your actual stats are too low to qualify for feats like Power Attack. The fused stats are treated as any other temporary stat boosters. After 24 hours they qualify for feats. There is nothing in the rules that say a synthesist can't wear their suits for 24 hours.
So they can use their fused stats to qualify for feats. However, they lose access to the feats if they are not fused which is only when they are asleep. But how are you sleeping? Are you just going to guess when you level up and not sleep for 2-3 days so you can be sure that you'll have had your eidolon on for 24 hours at the time you level?
It just seems to me like a normal synthesist is never going to have his eidolon on for 24 hrs in order to qualify because of sleeping. Most of the fluff for leveling is handwaved but I have had GMs that require training to gain feats. A synthesist player can rightfully fluff it that they spend all day and night practicing to power attacking to finally get it right.
How is that not more legitimate than magically the feat appears on the character?
Well here's the deal.
Lets say I have a 7 Strength.
I cannot qualify for power attack, because it requires a 13 Strength.
But then If I buy a Belt of Str +6, now I can qualify for the feat after 24 hours. And I can be pretty sure that no matter when I level, I have had the belt on for 24 hours because I just never take it off. So unless my belt is stolen or destroyed, I don't have to worry.
But with the Eidolon, it goes away every time you sleep. So unless you never sleep, you will never have the Eidolon on for the requisite 24 hours. So by the time you level up, you will be ineligible to use the Eidolon's stats because you will not have had the Eidolon on for 24 hours.
Elamdri wrote: Well here's the deal.
Lets say I have a 7 Strength.
I cannot qualify for power attack, because it requires a 13 Strength.
But then If I buy a Belt of Str +6, now I can qualify for the feat after 24 hours. And I can be pretty sure that no matter when I level, I have had the belt on for 24 hours because I just never take it off. So unless my belt is stolen or destroyed, I don't have to worry.
But with the Eidolon, it goes away every time you sleep. So unless you never sleep, you will never have the Eidolon on for the requisite 24 hours. So by the time you level up, you will be ineligible to use the Eidolon's stats because you will not have had the Eidolon on for 24 hours.
Thank you, Elamdri, for pointing this out to me.
My gaming group consists of around 9 players (husbands & wives, friends & family), ages ranging from 30 to 47 and we often alternate who GMs for the group to avoid any one person getting burnt out running (which has worked well for over 10 years). We have quite a few House Rules which we vote on and use across the board (i.e. each GM uses the same House Rules, regardless of setting, in order to prevent confusion). Not a one of us noticed this change (or if they did, they didn't mention it) from 3.5 to Pathfinder (and even looking into 3.5 quickly, I could find no specific text which prevented similar usage {admittedly, I could have missed it}, Pathfinder simply spelled it out better).
We have always played it as attribute bonuses from classes or prestige classes which are spelled out (ex. +2 strength at 4th level), bonuses to attributes from level-dependent benefits, certain template increases, permanent increases from the wish spell or similar effects, and racial attribute bonuses are the only things which increase the base attribute for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, etc. In otherwords, magic items that provided attribute bonuses were never allowed to meet the prerequisites of a feat or what have you.
I'll have to bring this to everyone's attention, though I suspect we'll continue to handle it as we always have.
Again, thanks!
Elamdri wrote: Well here's the deal.
Lets say I have a 7 Strength.
I cannot qualify for power attack, because it requires a 13 Strength.
But then If I buy a Belt of Str +6, now I can qualify for the feat after 24 hours. And I can be pretty sure that no matter when I level, I have had the belt on for 24 hours because I just never take it off. So unless my belt is stolen or destroyed, I don't have to worry.
But with the Eidolon, it goes away every time you sleep. So unless you never sleep, you will never have the Eidolon on for the requisite 24 hours. So by the time you level up, you will be ineligible to use the Eidolon's stats because you will not have had the Eidolon on for 24 hours.
What happens if your belt gets sunder and the monster you killed just gave you enough xp to level?
The player can't wait until he puts on another belt for 24 hours before actually leveling?
So why can't a synthesist do the same?
I must be missing something because where does leveling up come into play?
From what I have found on the PRD, D20pfsrd.com, and the CRB it only requires the bonus to last 24 hours. No reference to leveling up.
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you don't need to do that. a synthesist who dumps strength and relies solely on his fused state is going to be sorely screwed once his symbiotic suit loses all it's hit points for the day, is banished, dismissed, or the one minute transformation is interrupted. transforming takes a whole minute. giving a foe 10 rounds to attack you. this makes ambushing while the party rests or eats breakfast even more annoying for a synthesist. also, being fused in a public setting such as a settlement of any size will draw unwanted attention from the locals.
I forgot they have to do a 1 minute ritual... seems more like something that would be done first thing after getting dressed...
Though a Synth might have a harder time in most 'civilized' areas...
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