I've been away for a while, and didn't find anything regarding this mechanic I'm considering starting work on, so I'll ask before I begin working on it:
Has anyone written and tested a system of race advancement using the ARG? As PCs level, the racial abilities they possess begin to become less useful and so LA/CR slowly drops (assuming one is present).
I'm considering granting the players 1 RP per 2 levels, at 2nd level for a total of 10 race points at level 20. Also, each indivual race (all of my races are custom creations of my own, including humans) will have a list of abilities they may select, limited by cost and thus level.
Here's an example and is in NO WAY meant to reflect the rules of the ARG, (I know them, but this is a quick and thus bad example, so breaks the rules), and while minotaurs do not exist as PC races in my setting, it should easily illustrate my point:
A level 13 Minotaur Fighter (assuming the Krynn style Medium size as base) reaches level 14, and having not spent any of his RP, has a total of 7 points. Assume then, that he choose to buy Size: Large for 7 points which is listed as an option under his race. He spends the 7 points, gains Large size, and must now save to buy additional options. At level 16, he decides to buy Reach for 1 RP, leaving him with a possible 2 points left to spend at level 20.
Out side of the obvious breaking of the ARG design mechanics, I hope folks get what I'm asking.
I've written but not tested a system like this:
If you trust math behind the effective APL chart, awarding +2 RP per level after 1st allows all races to maintain the same APL adjustment they had on 1st level. A standard PC race getting +2 RP per level would remain relatively close to its normal APL, a 20-RP race would remain at +1 APL across all levels, a 20-RP race would remain at +2 APL, etc.
Of course, that assumes the GM is assigning racial abilities gained over time, not allow PCs to freely pick what they want, and assumes the GM is strictly adhering to the limits the system imposes on access to advanced traits, monstrous traits, and multiple traits from the same category.
And all of the above relies upon the effective APL guidelines, which, like WBL, are more of a suggestion than an absolute truth. Quite a few combinations of racial traits will break this system.
Thanks for both the confirmation and the advice regarding the question. I think what I'll do is test the math in the book and draw up a list of abilities for each individual race (to make sure nothing game breaking can be selected) with a few extra options for variety. Alternatively, I can just give them a table for the racial progression.
Thanks!
It's very nice, Da'ath! Congrats.
And I would go even further... You could start the Race Point System to full adapt the conception of Bestiary races being usable by players, with a evolution system to fulfill, just like old Savage Species of WotC, where the benefits by level could be better balanced by this method.
I went back to the table and gave the idea of race points for advancement some more thought and had an idea. The example below is a custom race for my campagain setting, which follows with a revised version of the Favored Class Option presented on pg 31 of the Core Rulebook. The idea is to grant the option of 1 race point every 2nd level in the character's favored class for a total of 10 RP at 20th level, assuming the select that option over the skill point, hit point, or race-specific class bonus. Anyway, he's the sample race and the sample options allowable for said race.
Kytonspawn, Anasi
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (3 rp)
Size: Medium (0 rp)
Base Speed: Normal (0 rp)
Senses: Darkvision 60' (0 rp - from type)
Ability Modifiers: -2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, +2 Constitution (0 rp)
Language: Standard (0 rp)
Compound Eyes: Anasi receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. (2 rp)
Natural Armor: Anasi gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class. (2 rp)
Plagueborn: Anasi gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease, ingested poisons, and becoming nauseated or sickened. (1 rp)
Constant Spell-Like Divination: detect disease (kythonspawn plague, only) (1 rp due to extreme limitations)
Sticky Tongue: Anasi can make melee attacks with their long, sticky tongues. This is a secondary attack. A creature hit by this attack cannot move more than 10 feet away from the attacker and takes a –2 penalty to AC as long as the tongue is attached (this penalty does not stack if multiple tongues are attached). The tongue can be removed by the target or an adjacent ally by making an opposed Strength check against the attacking creature as a standard action or by dealing 2 points of damage to the tongue (AC 11, damage does not reduce the sticky-tongued creature's hit points). Anasi cannot move more than 10 feet away from a creature stuck to its tongue, but it can release its tongue from the target as a free action. Anasi can only have one creature attached to its tongue at a time. (2 rp)
Elemental Vulnerability: Anasi are particularly vulnerable to damage dealt by sonic attacks. (-2 rp)
Total: 9 RP.
Favored Class (Revision)
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing — typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either +1 hit point, +1 skill rank, or +1 race point at every even level (2nd, 4th, and so on). The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.
Anasi Race Advancement Options (Example Advancement List - Race Specific)
The following options are available to Anasi characters to purchase with race points (RP) gained through the favored class option:
Improved Natural Armor I (1 RP): Your natural armor bonus is increased to a total of +2.
Improved Natural Armor II (2 RP): Your natural armor bonus is increased to a total of +3.
Improved Natural Armor III (3 RP): Your natural armor bonus is increased to a total of +4.
Improved Natural Armor IV (4 RP): Your natural armor bonus is increased to a total of +5.
Spell-Like Ability, At-Will (4 RP): You may use the spell spider climb as an at-will spell-like ability. The caster level of the spell is equal to the user's character level.
Improved Sticky Tongue (2 RP): You gain the ability to pull a creature attached to your tongue 5 feet toward you as a swift action.
Tripping Tail (3 RP): When you hit with your slapping tail, you may make a trip attack as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Prerequisites: Slapping tail trait.
Prehensile Tail (2 RP): You have a long, flexible tail that can be used to carry objects. You cannot wield weapons with Your tail, but you can retrieve small, stowed objects carried on your person as a swift action.
Slapping Tail (3 RP): You may use your tail to make attacks of opportunity with a reach of 5 feet. The tail is a natural attack that deals 1d8 points of damage plus your Strength modifier.
Prerequisites: Prehensile Tail.
Notes: I could also add traits which increased skills (particularly their perception skill), senses (improving darkvision), and so on.
Pros: This allows players to improve their racial abilities, which remain static once the race is selected at 1st level. The pre-designed list grants them only options which the GM feels are acceptable for said race with the added benefit of giving the players the feeling of being able to customize something they really couldn't prior to the ARG.
Cons: A very minor power creep. Due to the limited amount of points provided, the effective "Average RP" of each race (all of my races are between 9 and 11 points) starts off as the standard and maintains a low value (no real gain in LA for the purposes of challenging the players - refer to Sidebar: Challenging Advanced and Monstrous Races in the ARG). The major "Con" is that it takes a lot of effort and awareness on the GM's part to make sure he/she does not setup the players with something that will cause a significant imbalance or otherwise disrupt the levels of power between the party members.
Any feedback of a constructive nature is appreciated. I may see what I can do with Humans & Elves next to test the waters with the Core Races a bit.
OK I have written, tested,.and both loved and hated this system...
In fact I almost mentioned it in some of your other threads.
It really makes choosing a race a long term concept spanning decision. That being said it does raise some problems.
-How is this justified in world?
-Do these options reduce/increase the classes they synergize with? (Refer back to the thread on your Kytonspawn, Anasi)
-Does each race gain to many of the same options?
It certainly looks cool. Not sure on balance, but as long as you the DM are fine and the players are having fun... go for it.
I would suggest adding a set of universal options that any race can choose from just to give every race plenty of options. Things like Skilled and such would be universal imo.
Now then after reading entire thread:
Good list of abilities. Though. Maybe add the ability to increase their Detect Disease to all diseases.
On the Favored Class option: It seems more for a +1/2 RP. The way you have it. I can take my favored class every even level and still gain the benefits. Or at least argue that I could. You didn't specify character or class level
Personally I would leave it separate from the Favored Class system. This makes characters that remain even in power.
Personally I would leave it separate from the Favored Class system. This makes characters that remain even in power.
I would have to agree. There are certain class/race combo's that just won't get to enjoy your new system because there class bonus is just too important(Human/Sorc, Half-Elf/Summoner, ect). Having it seperate would make sure everyone gets to advance.
Personally I would leave it separate from the Favored Class system. This makes characters that remain even in power.I would have to agree. There are certain class/race combo's that just won't get to enjoy your new system because there class bonus is just too important(Human/Sorc, Half-Elf/Summoner, ect). Having it seperate would make sure everyone gets to advance.
I will try to dig up my system and post some of the Racial options... I am planning on making a Wiki/Blog/etc for my homebrew... so yeah perfect chance now all I need is to get to my laptop.
Instead of implementing a new system of points, why not using racial feats?
The players who would be interested into giving more racial traits to their characters would spend feats for that.
It would keep them balanced with the other charcaters.
Re: Azaelas Fayth: That it does. My goal is to make certain thateach race in my campaign setting is equally appealing, so as to insure none really shine above the rest. Ultimately, it is my hope that each player selects his or her race based on flavor and of course, abilities, but not feel like they're losing out because this or that race is overall statistically better.
That's a wonderful idea regarding the disease ability - it hadn't even crossed my mind for some reason. Thanks!
Re: Dragonamedrake: The balance isn't something I'm 100% sure on at the moment, as this was drawn up in the span of about 20 minutes so as to have a working example for folks to see what I had in mind. I'm definitely going to have to go back through it and make sure it all "fits" and isn't over-the-top.
If I understand you correctly when you say, "Universal", you're speaking of the more "generic" racial traits and so forth in the ARG, such as, for example, sprinter, skill training, arcane focus? Another wonderful idea.
The only problem I can see with adding "Skilled" to a universal pool would be the need to limit it to purchaseable once and only if you didn't already have the trait, i.e. humans couldn't select it, for example, as they already possess it (and the total skill points could get way out of hand - a human, for example, would have 40 skill points extra by level 20, and would being the term "skill monkey" to a whole new level).
Re: Both on Favored Class: You know, you both have very valid points regarding keeping it separate from the favored class system. The idea is to keep all on the same playing field, and I hadn't really considered that using the system in such a manner might cause a disparity. Thanks for pointing it out!
Feats are already a tight commodity for players. I say allow the race to advance separately. Heck, I still don't understand why the suli must spend a feat to be able to effectively use his special ability. It makes the class unappealing to some people.
Allowing a race to evolve and not have Feat taxes, in my experience usually leads to players having a better time. Though you can't just make this system to only players. Allow all main NPC members of the race to use this system. E.G. your big bad guy gets to evolve not just the heroes.
Feats are already a tight commodity for players. I say allow the race to advance separately. Heck, I still don't understand why the suli must spend a feat to be able to effectively use his special ability. It makes the class unappealing to some people.
Agreed. I hadn't really noticed the feat tax on the Suli or really even the Suli until you mentioned it. There are several of the races in the system that I look at and just wonder about. While ARG was still in Beta, I was reviewing the race builder regularly and taking notes down of what I would change upon release if certain things were left as-is. The downside is it is taking me a great deal of time to do so and to create the setting specific attributes and assign carefully thought-out weights to them.
Allowing a race to evolve and not have Feat taxes, in my experience usually leads to players having a better time.
Again, I agree. I kinda see most of the "racial feats" added by Paizo as a form of feat tax, as well. I'm sure others do not see it that way, but once I'm happy with this system using the race points (RP) which I decided to just add to the level-dependent benefits chart, I may just roll them into the options (I still need to do a lot more work before I decide something like that, however).
Though you can't just make this system to only players. Allow all main NPC members of the race to use this system. E.G. your big bad guy gets to evolve not just the heroes.
This is one thing my players learned the hard way many, many years ago. I have several "golden rules," one of which is precisely what you say. The big bads always get the same benefits as the PCs.=)
Hmm maybe instead of Race Points... Every so many levels they gain a Racial Feat Slot?
So your Improved Natural Armor options can become a Sliding Scale armor bonus for a racial feat slot.
That might be a good balance between the systems... No converting the existing feats, just adding a new way to obtain them while making it easier to make new options for the race.
I echo Seldriss' point - I really like your base concept (I love the idea of " monster" PC's using their race's signature abilities) but to balance with (for example) the core races how do you justify giving the minotaur (or gnoll or gelatinous cube....) 2 RP every level? Would you also give humans and dwarves, elves and half-orcs 2 RP/level?
I echo Seldriss' point - I really like your base concept (I love the idea of " monster" PC's using their race's signature abilities) but to balance with (for example) the core races how do you justify giving the minotaur (or gnoll or gelatinous cube....) 2 RP every level? Would you also give humans and dwarves, elves and half-orcs 2 RP/level?
The original idea was 1 RP/2 Levels not 2 RP/Level. Personally I think the easier way would be to add a feat slot dedicated to only racial feats.
Ah yes sorry my mistake! 1 every 2 levels then.
I guess even with your added race-dedicated feat slot idea my point still stands - would you give the dedicated race-feat slot to core races? Why/why not?
Re: Seldriss & Azaelas: I apologize for not answering Seldriss' post in my last one - I totally missed it when I posted my last response. On to the feat question & slots.
The really big problem with racial feats... well, it's self-created. It will be infinitely easier for me, personally, to use the race point system. I'll explain:
The Problem: ... this is my race list. In order to balance it out in terms of racial feats, I'll have to spend a significant amount of time hand-crafting feats for each one. One could suggest I reduce the list, but my players like variety - I like variety. Depending on which area of the setting I'm running, the choices available are limited a bit due to certain geographical or political factors.
PC: Catfolk (Mrsharr), Dhampir, Elf (Amárith, Asëa'ari, Dragonari, Eilisari, Half-Elf, Lolthari, Sulari), Faerie (Changeling, Half-Nymph, Sídhe), Half-Orc, Human (Standard, Streghe, Vasharan), Monstrous (Anasi, Hagspawn, Hobgoblin, Lizardfolk (Slyvian)), Planetouched (Aasimar, Shadeling, Tiefling), Primal (similar to Kitsune, but not limited to foxes), Vampyre (think Ravenloft).
NPC: Dwarf (Duergar, Valhir), Gnome (Nelwyn), Halfling (Farellian).
I did not care for the Core Races - this is not to say it was in anyway wrong, it just didn't fit with my tastes or my groups collective vision of our setting. With this in mind, I talked to my group, we brainstormed a bit, and I spent a lot of time adjusting things, testing, and so on before we switched to the newly constructed races that took into account the lore, flavor, and so on of the setting. When Paizo released the ARG, I went about carefully updating the races to the system, as it had some brilliant ideas we'd not really thought about.
Since Humans didn't require much, this is what we ended up doing for them:
Human
Ability Adjustments +2 to one ability score of your choice.
Senses Normal.
Size Medium.
Speed Human base speed is 6 squares.
Skilled (4rp) Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Bonus Feat (4rp) Humans gain one bonus feat at 1st level.
Eternal Hope (2rp) Humans gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20, humans may reroll and use the second result.
Automatic Language Common, choice of one other.
The halflings, however, ended up very different from the standard version:
Halflings, Sorilian
Ability Adjustments +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength.
Senses None.
Size Small.
Speed Halfling base speed is 6 squares.
Skill Bonuses (2rp) Perception +2.
Fearless (1rp) Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear.
Poison Resistance (3rp) Halflings gain a racial bonus on saving throws against poison effects equal to their Hit Dice.
Swarming (1 rp) Halflings are used to living and fighting communally with other members of their tribe. Up to two halflings can share the same square at the same time. If two halflings that are occupying the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
Treespeech (2rp) Halflings have the ability to converse with plants as if subject to a continual speak with plants spell.
Carrion Sense (1rp) Halflings have a natural ability to sniff out carrion or follow the blood trail of their prey. This functions like the scent ability, but only for corpses and badly wounded creatures (creatures with 25% or fewer hit points).
Automatic Language Common, choice of one other.
I do not, however, want to dismiss Azaelas' suggestion, as I'm not 100% sure I understand it. Could you explain in greater detail, perhaps give an example?
Re: Oceanshieldwolf: I'm really glad you like it. I'm not sure I understand entirely what you're asking - the mention of the gelatinous cube throws me off a bit. Could you explain in more detail?
As for the the mention of the core races, all of the races for my setting have been retooled from their original form using the ARG using a range of 9 race points to 11 race points as the cut-off point for expenditures. Basically, if I finished a race, tallied up the points and it was 9, I left it at 9.
I hope this answers the questions presented. Again, your comments are a big help and very much appreciated.
This is one thing my players learned the hard way many, many years ago. I have several "golden rules," one of which is precisely what you say. The big bads always get the same benefits as the PCs.=)
QUOTE="Azaelas Fayth"]Though you can't just make this system to only players. Allow all main NPC members of the race to use this system. E.G. your big bad guy gets to evolve not just the heroes.
It is only fair to both The Good, The Evil, and The Neutral. Core And Non-Core
A lot of home brew.
In your case then the 1 RP/2 Levels is actually a better method.
In my case and most GMs though using feat slots would work better.
I say it depends on the campaign. Maybe both can be wrote up for a Home Brew Variant/Alternate Rule.
Say you take the RP system as that fits your campaign better and I will take the Feat system?
Edit: In response to your question:
I am saying every 2,3, or 4 levels a character gains a Racial Feat Slot. These feat slots can only be used for a Racial Feat.
E.G.: A Strix using her first Racial Feat Slot to take stretched wings.
I am planning on allowing my players to either request feats or even design their own(subject to my approval of course). That way I can focus on the worlds and things my players want.
@Da'ath: first let me commend you on making your variant dwarves halflings and gnomes NPC races! I'm a dyed in the wool dwarf and gnome hater!!! Halflings... Well they can fit in the catapult with the other two in a pinch.
Sorry for the gelatinous cube reference, it was my ham-fisted attempt at humor, and also trying to pinpoint/broaden the scope of "monsters as PCs". Look, put simply your system sounds fine as it is for your campaign and I applaud it wholeheartedly. I love campaigns that move away from the core races, and I love almost-only-humans low magic campaigns too.
I'm just wondering, in a campaign where the core races exist alongside monster PCs, how would you balance giving some PCs racial points but not others? Or do you give them to all? Or give core races something else to make up for it?
@Azaelas: same question with giving some PCs racial feats - how do you balance the Strix with the elf or gnome or human?
Remember guys, it's completely fibe with me if you answer "I don't try to balance it". Because I don't believe in "total balance", it doesn't bother me. But there are those who like to offer a balanced system - what you are suggesting is a great system, and the more universally accepted it is the more it will accrete and take hold. Balancing this system for "vanilla"/core race campaigns that use "monster race" PC's would be a great service to the entire game.
Re: Azaelas: Yeah, the race points makes it so much easier due to the massive amounts of homebrew content we use. Basically, I bought each of my players a 3-ring binder, printed off the content, and just bring in a page or two for each everytime an edit of large scale takes place. Most of the binder containts setting material, as in text on areas, history, spells, player created (and approved content) and so on.
Okay, now I get what you mean and it makes perfect sense. Also, I think allowing your players to construct their own content only ties them into the world more and gives them a feeling of having an impact (for good or ill). The feat design (and spell design, among others) is a very rewarding thing - especially if the player teaches the spell or feat, for example, to NPC which means it becomes a part of the setting. One of my players designed several spells and before retiring her character, had build a school of the "sorcerous arts". Depending on which section of the timeline we use, some of these spells are treated in the same way as old school Gygaxian: they've been around long enough for most casters to be familiar with, i.e. selectable as options.
I may see if my players are interested in helping to develop racial feats, subject to GM approval. That might eventually take some of the load off.
Re: Oceanshieldwolf: It's great to meet another hater! I hate dwarves, halflings, gnomes, kobolds (I miss the old school kobolds - the draconic bit just doesn't do it for me since I remeber them being more like dogs from AD&D 1st), and kender. It feels so good to say it!
One of the big reasons the larger PC race list we use was due to optimization: the versatility of the human over the other races, coupled with its lack of any form of penalty resulted in several years of us having nothing but human campaigns. Don't get me wrong, my players LOVE roleplay, but they also LOVE tweaking their characters. What I did after our brainstorming session was to try to make each race at least AS APPEALING as humans. I wanted them playing what they wanted for flavor and story, as opposed to what they felt would help them "keep up with the Jones'". Fortunately, it worked. The first game after we adopted the new races had my players trying out all sorts of new things and we still had a couple humans.
I'm just wondering, in a campaign where the core races exist alongside monster PCs, how would you balance giving some PCs racial points but not others? Or do you give them to all? Or give core races something else to make up for it?
All of the core races as presented in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook are valued at 8 points to 11 points (half-orc being the lowest, with dwarf being one of the highest). In Epic Meepo's post above, he presents a very interesting point (in summary): if you trust the math Paizo uses for Sidebar: Challenging Advanced and Monstrous Races, granting 2 race points per level over the course of 20 levels will maintain the status quo, assuming to follow the rules exactly (all subject to GM approval so as to avoid breaking the system). As I am less interested in maintaining the effective LA of the party across all 20 levels and want to keep the "power creep" at a very low level, I'm opting for a bonus of 10 points across the levels, as opposed to the potential 40 points.
What this means is that by the time the player characters reach level 20, their character races will effectively be 20 point races total (give or take a point or two if using the Core rules as written). In essence, I'm saying if you give the monstrous races you create a bonus of 10 points, the only way to balance the Core races against them would be to give them the same number of points, but only with a very specific list of racial traits drawn up for each race (whether core or custom), so as to avoid any "broken" combinations and maintain your vision for your setting.
If I have time today (I have an 18 month old daughter who DOES NOT like daddy playing on the computer while she's awake), I'll try to write up an example for the rules as written core races. Actually, looking at it, I can do it for half-orc right now just using the alternate racial traits (I don't use the alternate racial trait system, the races as is are how we play them, but it will give a good idea).
Example: Half-Orc
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Half-orc characters gain a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature. (0rp)
Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes.
Size: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Half-orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, and Goblin. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks due to their fearsome nature. (2rp)
Offense Racial Traits
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying. (2 rp)
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon. (2rp)
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. (2 rp)
Other Racial Traits
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race. (0rp)
Total: 8 rp (weakest of the core races in terms of points spent)
Half-Orc Racial Advancement
Acute Darkvision: A half-orc with this trait gains darkvision 90 feet. (2rp)
Beastmaster: A half-orc with this trait treats whips and nets as martial weapons and gains a +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks. (2rp)
Bestial: The half-orc gains a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. (2rp)
Cavewight: Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 racial bonus on Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Survival checks made underground. (2rp)
Chain Fighter: Half-orcs with this racial trait are proficient with flails and heavy flails, and treat dire flails and spiked chains as martial weapons. (2rp)
City-Raised: Half-orcs with this trait are proficient with whips and longswords, and receive a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (local) checks. (2rp)
Forest Walker: Half-orcs with this trait have low-light vision and gain a +2 racial bonus on Climb checks. (2rp)
Gatecrasher: Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on Strength checks to break objects and on sunder combat maneuver checks. (2rp)
Rock Climber: Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks. (2rp)
Sacred Tattoo: Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. (2rp)
Scavenger: Half-orcs with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. (2rp)
Shaman's Apprentice: Half-orcs with this trait gain Endurance as a bonus feat. (2rp)
Squalid: Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws made to resist nausea, the sickened condition, and disease. (2rp)
Toothy: The half-orcs' tusks are large and sharp, granting a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage. (2rp)
The above is a general idea of what it MIGHT look like for the Core Race, however, I don't like a great deal of it, so if I were to go back and write up the list instead of just copy/pasting/deleting, it would definitely look different. For example, I'd probably let the half-orc's ferocity trait advance:
Ferocity (4 RP): Half-orcs gain the following extraordinary ability: If the hit points a half-orc fall below 0 but it is not yet dead, it can continue to fight. If it does, it is staggered, and loses 1 hit point each round. It still dies when its hit points reach a negative amount equal to its Constitution score. This trait replaces Orc Ferocity.
This means no sooner than level 8, the half-orc select this trait assuming he/she purchased nothing else. Remember, this off-the-cuff and in no way compared to pre-existing rules of a simiar nature to gauge the actual level this would be acceptable at - it's just to illustrate an idea.
Hey Da'ath, my 18 month old son likes typing dhejgnejsidbrjsk and fnrkwlanMs$:$ and stuff like that... Lucky he's asleep now!!! So I get the drift on that score...
Thanks for explaining the math too - having Eric Morton being positive on this thread really made me feel assured of your approach - his work is legion and legendary!!! A real rpg superstar IMHO... I'd be interested in seeing your half-orc treatment, but hey - when you got some time huh? i.e. No rush!!!
Hey Da'ath, my 18 month old son likes typing dhejgnejsidbrjsk and fnrkwlanMs$:$ and stuff like that... Lucky he's asleep now!!! So I get the drift on that score...
I think the worst thing my daughter ever did on the computer was when I was revamping the Kythons. I'd finally finished it and she hit the power switch on my surge protector before I'd gotten a chance to save it. Thankfully, I had auto-save on in openoffice and it was preserved (mostly).=)
Thanks for explaining the math too - having Eric Morton being positive on this thread really made me feel assured of your approach - his work is legion and legendary!!! A real rpg superstar IMHO... I'd be interested in seeing your half-orc treatment, but hey - when you got some time huh? i.e. No rush!!!
His exact post is above, but here's the quote of it:
I've written but not tested a system like this:If you trust math behind the effective APL chart, awarding +2 RP per level after 1st allows all races to maintain the same APL adjustment they had on 1st level. A standard PC race getting +2 RP per level would remain relatively close to its normal APL, a 20-RP race would remain at +1 APL across all levels, a 20-RP race would remain at +2 APL, etc.
Of course, that assumes the GM is assigning racial abilities gained over time, not allow PCs to freely pick what they want, and assumes the GM is strictly adhering to the limits the system imposes on access to advanced traits, monstrous traits, and multiple traits from the same category.
And all of the above relies upon the effective APL guidelines, which, like WBL, are more of a suggestion than an absolute truth. Quite a few combinations of racial traits will break this system.
Thusfar, the post has been a terribly helpful reference in terms of guidelines. Come to think of it, I actually missed a guideline he mentions above with regard to natural armor, specifically the improved version of it for the Anasi. The Maximum Traits Per Category Table indicates a maximum of 3 traits per category for a 1-10 point buy and 4 traits per category of a 11-20 point buy in order to maintain adherence to the ARG guidelines. If I understand this correctly, a 20 point buy is the minimum allowed to select from Standard and Advanced Traits, with 20+ required for Standard, Advanced, and Monstrous traits, as well. I believe the implication of "20+" is at GM discretion for selecting monstrous traits, as "20+" suggests "20 or higher", where as "21+" would say "under 21 points cannot select Monstrous Traits".
I might want to run after saying this... but I like Dwarves... though I tend towards the dark Dwarves(can't remember their PF name)... Gnomes and Hob... I mean halflings are just ammunition and pack-mules(Nodwick!). Kobolds in my setting are dog-esque in appearance which leads to dragons laughing at them whenever they state they are descendants of dragons.
Racial feats will be available to each and every race in my settings.
In fact my racial source books/pages for the main AG2 setting will list them.
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Re: Seldriss & Azaelas: I apologize for not answering Seldriss' post in my last one - I totally missed it when I posted my last response. On to the feat question & slots.
The really big problem with racial feats... well, it's self-created. It will be infinitely easier for me, personally, to use the race point system. I'll explain:The Problem: ... this is my race list. In order to balance it out in terms of racial feats, I'll have to spend a significant amount of time hand-crafting feats for each one. One could suggest I reduce the list, but my players like variety - I like variety. Depending on which area of the setting I'm running, the choices available are limited a bit due to certain geographical or political factors.
PC: Catfolk (Mrsharr), Dhampir, Elf (Amárith, Asëa'ari, Dragonari, Eilisari, Half-Elf, Lolthari, Sulari), Faerie (Changeling, Half-Nymph, Sídhe), Half-Orc, Human (Standard, Streghe, Vasharan), Monstrous (Anasi, Hagspawn, Hobgoblin, Lizardfolk (Slyvian)), Planetouched (Aasimar, Shadeling, Tiefling), Primal (similar to Kitsune, but not limited to foxes), Vampyre (think Ravenloft).
NPC: Dwarf (Duergar, Valhir), Gnome (Nelwyn), Halfling (Farellian).
I would be interested in seeing all your finished races with their racial advancements. Any chance you post it up as a doc or PDF somewhere?
I might want to run after saying this... but I like Dwarves... though I tend towards the dark Dwarves(can't remember their PF name)... Gnomes and Hob... I mean halflings are just ammunition and pack-mules(Nodwick!). Kobolds in my setting are dog-esque in appearance which leads to dragons laughing at them whenever they state they are descendants of dragons.
Racial feats will be available to each and every race in my settings.
In fact my racial source books/pages for the main AG2 setting will list them.
Overall, I just do not like those races for player characters. I like the dwarves (duergar are the oens I think you're referencing as the "dark dwarves" - duegar and drow are names taken from Norse myth, if I recall correctly), but it has been my experience with a variety of players over many years that these races (halflings, gnomes, kender, kobolds - kobolds I reverted to the old-school version of the more canine-like variety - much like your own) are played in the most obnoxious fashion possible, which tends to cause a number of disruptions that I have not experienced with other races.
You guys got me thinking a bit about racial feats, so I used the ARG to assign points to some of them with the idea that I could add an
optional universal feat which granted Race Points if a player chooses to invest in it. The down-side, so far, has been that some of these pre-existing
PF racial feats grant a massive amount of RP (in terms of benefits granted), while some grant only a tiny bit. I know and understand that this is not even close to a perfect pair of systems to try and compare to one another. It's an excercise in brainstorming. As a result of this "experiment", I've considered adding an optional feat that grants race points. The issues are a. power creep and b. static amount granted or variable based on level. Assuming you wanted a maximum bonus of 5 additional points, it could be a 1 time feat; assuming 10, it could be 2 points per selection with a maximum of 5 times. I'm not sure I'll even do it until I've finished the other parts of the project, but it's an interesting idea. Thoughts?
I would be interested in seeing all your finished races with their racial advancements. Any chance you post it up as a doc or PDF somewhere?
I can likely post a PDF copy of this by the weekend (if not sooner), but the advancement for each race will be untested and it may not be finished for all of the races. It's a great idea, though, as it will allow folks to nitpick my decisions, make me think, point out any screwups/exploits I missed, and maybe help folks interested in simlar things. Once I have about 10 of the races with advancements completed, I'll post it with a link here.=)
Hmm most of my Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, and Kobold players play them straight. Not obnoxiously... in fact it usually is the Elf and Human players that are the obnoxious ones in my parties. A player with a Human Wizard actually stated that any race besides human sucks. Only to be killed in game by a lone kobold. Who was using a Club with a -2 damage.
Hmm most of my Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, and Kobold players play them straight. Not obnoxiously... in fact it usually is the Elf and Human players that are the obnoxious ones in my parties. A player with a Human Wizard actually stated that any race besides human sucks. Only to be killed in game by a lone kobold. Who was using a Club with a -2 damage.
Now that's priceless!
Hmm most of my Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, and Kobold players play them straight. Not obnoxiously... in fact it usually is the Elf and Human players that are the obnoxious ones in my parties. A player with a Human Wizard actually stated that any race besides human sucks. Only to be killed in game by a lone kobold. Who was using a Club with a -2 damage.Now that's priceless!
Oh yeah especially given the Wizard was forced to take a Concentration check every round just to cast a spell. The only spell he got off was an acid orb which dealt 1 damage to the Kobold.
Quick update: So far I have 3 of the races in a rough draft form (Dhampir, Anasi, and Vampyre) and I expect to get around another 3-4 of them completed tonight. I will definitely have at least 10 completed by this weekend, probably more. When I do put it up, I'm considering using google docs with the hope that everything will be as simple a cut and paste. I may toy with that tonight. as well.
Google Docs is wonderful. Especially when sharing content.
I said I'd get the race document my group uses up by the weekend, and here it is. Unfortunately, I didn't get to work on the advancement of races as much as I'd have liked to, or even meet my minimum for posting it, as I noticed some major differences between point values and the ARG, so I had to go back and correct some of the entries from the Beta of the ARG to the released version (one example was the natural armor entry which provided a +2 bonus for the same point cost as the release version's +1 bonus) which I'd apparently not got around to previously - we're between games, and that's the time I usually do this sort of thing, unless it's something that needs addressed immediately.
I'll try to update it regularly as I make changes throughout the next few weeks to try to get things in a less rough-draft state. I removed a lot of the fluff from the PDF, which brought it down to just about 35 pages. I placed some notes as reminders to myself about concerns I have for specific races and their design in there as well as ideas from brainstorming, which are not normally in the version I had to my players and added the appropriate RP values where necessary. For the reader, I did add a notes section in the beginning of the document which include a few of the changes we use in my campaigns (such as why do I do this when there is X or Y magic item - X or Y magic item isn't used in my setting, for example).
As I never plan to release any of this material for profit, some of it is shamelessly stolen from other sources with a "take what I like mechanically and thematically and throw the rest away" mentality for my gaming table.
I welcome questions, comments, and criticisms, as long as they're constructive.
Why did you post it as a PDF? You could have just posted it as a Document. It saved valuable Google Drive Space.
EDIT: I have spent the past Month or so updating my races... I noticed a lot of price changes.
Why did you post it as a PDF? You could have just posted it as a Document. It saved valuable Google Drive Space.
EDIT: I have spent the past Month or so updating my races... I noticed a lot of price changes.
It wouldn't format properly with a cut and paste, or upload as a google doc and I'm lazy.=)
I may try again later on converting it to a google doc, when I upload the next few changes.
Yeah, there were a ton of changes, which I expected, but still - took a bit of work.
Ah OK...
If you save the file as a .odt file it should upload OK.
Ah OK...
If you save the file as a .odt file it should upload OK.
Here's the .odt version of it, as requested. It doesn't appear that you can view it on the google docs bit, but can download it.
Thanks for pointing that out, Az.
Drat... I was hoping it could be viewed... I'm currently on my phone... thanks Though. Maybe we can update it and repost it to aid you in updating it.