In 3.X there was a feat called persistent spell which allowed a spell with a non-instantaneous duration to last 24 hours. IIRC, it was a +6 level adjustment. This ring is similar to a rod of that, with some restrictions (personal only, one at a time)
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In 3.X there was a feat called persistent spell which allowed a spell with a non-instantaneous duration to last 24 hours. IIRC, it was a +6 level adjustment. This ring is similar to a rod of that, with some restrictions (personal only, one at a time)
Except that with a +6 level adjustment the feat can only normally be used with 0-3 level spells. If you start adding other traits and feats to get access to higher level spells for the duration extending feat then the effective cost is increased. The ring can be used with any level spell.
I personally think the ring is fine power-wise, but would like to see this item receive the same treatment as metamagic rods. Three versions each affecting progressively higher level spells for an increase in price. The ring as-is sounds good for 1-6 level spells, in my opinion (which is how I would probably rule it in my games, but I will probably ask my players to vote since several also DM).
Actually the reason why persistent was overpowered because of various prestige class dips to get it's cost down to around +1 only(including all other metamagic as well). This Item as it stands doesn't work with timestop for all intensive purposes(at least to the point of it being beneficial). A little bit of errata and martial hugging and everyone will be happy again.
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Actually the reason why persistent was overpowered because of various prestige class dips to get it's cost down to around +1 only(including all other metamagic as well). This Item as it stands doesn't work with timestop for all intensive purposes(at least to the point of it being beneficial). A little bit of errata and martial hugging and everyone will be happy again.
There has been a lot of focus on timestop, but there are a number of other spells which this could be used with as well. I would personally be a bit worried about a Wizard with near permanent shapechange in my campaigns. As a standard action they can transform into a form appropriate to nearly any environment/situation all day everyday. Add in some minor boosts to physical prowess to back up their damage as, for example, a huge dragon with 6 natural attacks and they are competent second line fighters with full progression spellcasting.
If you have that ring and cast a personal range polymorph using the following preparation ritual, the additional AC bonus lasts for the whole 24h, too, right?
Preparation Ritual
Defensive Transmutation (Su) When taking another shape, you can increase your defenses. Spend this boon’s effect as a free action when you cast a transmutation spell with a range of personal. As long as you are affected by that spell, you gain a +2 natural armor bonus for the duration of the spell.
What's a preparation ritual?
I would personally be a bit worried about a Wizard with near permanent shapechange in my campaigns. As a standard action they can transform into a form appropriate to nearly any environment/situation all day everyday. Add in some minor boosts to physical prowess to back up their damage as, for example, a huge dragon with 6 natural attacks and they are competent second line fighters with full progression spellcasting.
A transmuter or sorcerer with a high spellcasting stat can do this anyways (they have enough spell slots and duration to make it last 24/7).
Some spellbooks have preparation rituals written in.
When you use such a spellbook for preparing your spells you can gain the benefit of that ritual.
There are things like gain see the invisible for 1roun/day or heal 2d6hp when reduced to 0 or below 1/day or the one I quoted above.
Or get a Greater Extend Rod to apply to shapechange...
20th level w/ orange iuon stone (if you don't have one by level 20, you fail wizard school and must return all text/spell-books) is CL 21. That's 210 minutes, or 3.5 hours. Extended, it's 7 hours. 3 rod uses and 9th spell slots gives you 21 hours per day, and you need to sleep at some point... Close enough to 24 hours.
Or spend a feat on Extend Spell and save your money (helps you get Spell Perfection).
I have a sorcerer now who can stay in dragon form via shapechange 24/7 WITHOUT the need for extend spell. Extend Spell just makes it possible a few levels earlier without the need for min/maxing your spellcasting stat (why you wouldn't, is beyond me).
How are you extending a 9th level spell? You can't use 10th level slots, and Spell Perfection only lets you modify a spell w/ metamagic up to the point where it'd be 9th level normally.
The trait that reduces metamagic cost of one spell by 1? I guess if starting at high level; I wouldn't want ot have a trait sitting useless for 16-17 levels if starting at 1...
But greater extend rod works fine and isn't even terribly expensive.
How are you extending a 9th level spell? You can't use 10th level slots, and Spell Perfection only lets you modify a spell w/ metamagic up to the point where it'd be 9th level normally.
The trait that reduces metamagic cost of one spell by 1? I guess if starting at high level; I wouldn't want ot have a trait sitting useless for 16-17 levels if starting at 1...
But greater extend rod works fine and isn't even terribly expensive.
I would guess that it's an Abberant sorcerer.
Seems you answered your own question.:P
Carry a completely worthless trait for 16 levels?
Some answer...
You can take extra traits late on and grab it then.
And what if I thought that trait was SO incredibly good, that merely depriving yourself of using it on any spell at all was a painful "opportunity cost," regardless of whether it's actually eating one of your trait slots that whole time or not?
;)
Seriously, though. I'd want to use it before then.
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Two words, Action Economy. If the spell lasts all day it does not need to be cast in combat which frees up a standard or swift action (at the level you'd have this ring your swift actions will be used nearly every round most combats).There are 1st level spells than can still be pretty strong if lasting for 24h.While I agree (for example, Shield is an excellent spell), by the point you can get the ring I don't think it'll be THAT more powerful than simply getting a few wands of the spell.
Exactly what Nipin said. Imagine True Strike, sure, it's dispelled on the 1st hit, but it also basically garantees you'll land that first hit. At higher levels, that 1st attack may very well be the deciding factor between victory and defeat. Why would a Magus not cast true strike after every combat? That +20 for his next attack and he gets to ignore concealment. Hey, it's better than Furious Focus!
And that is only a 1st level spell. But there is more!
1st: Even if they limit the max. spell level the ring can hold, it's unlikely to be level 1. I'd guess 3 or 4. If it happened.
2nd: With each new book released, the chances of having a spell that can be abused through this ring increases significantly.
This ring, even if not broken as it's now, is a keg of gunpoweder floating on a lake of nitroglycerin. (Okay, that may be a little of an exaggeration, but I like the way it sounds... heh)
It's one spell away from being very, very broken. If it's not already.
Spell duration and action economy play a big role in balancing spells. Discard them with a "extend whatever spell's duration to 24h anytime you want" and we can very realistically expect thing to go downhill from there.
tl;dr. If this ring is not OP, it'll be. Unless it's errataed/nerfed to death.
no word yet on status of this ring yet huh? I can go either way. I can see the where this can be abused but so can a few other items. I do believe it is priced to cheaply though.
I am surprised people haven't started contimplating what happens when you use two rings together. So long as you cast the 2nd Spell before the normal duration of the 1st is up, and can place a 2nd ring on in between spell casting, you could have 2 spells on all day long.
Actually the reason why persistent was overpowered because of various prestige class dips to get it's cost down to around +1 only(including all other metamagic as well). This Item as it stands doesn't work with timestop for all intensive purposes(at least to the point of it being beneficial). A little bit of errata and martial hugging and everyone will be happy again.There has been a lot of focus on timestop, but there are a number of other spells which this could be used with as well. I would personally be a bit worried about a Wizard with near permanent shapechange in my campaigns. As a standard action they can transform into a form appropriate to nearly any environment/situation all day everyday. Add in some minor boosts to physical prowess to back up their damage as, for example, a huge dragon with 6 natural attacks and they are competent second line fighters with full progression spellcasting.
Meh, I don't expect martials to keep pace with full spell casters anymore. They're classes designed to be played at lower levels. It's a shame really that's like that though.
Yar!
Yar.
The best way (I think, unless we get lucky) to get the attention of the staff regarding our concerns with this item is to have a post with a good question about it, and FAQ the heck out of it.
Such as:
Ultimate Equipment: Ring of Continuation.
The Ring of Continuation says that any spell cast with a target of personal has it's duration increased to 24 hours. This raises a number of questions:
1 - Isn't this way too powerful for it's cost? Shouldn't there be a spell level limit, or some additional text with clauses to prevent this item from completely overpowering high level personal spells?
2 - How does this interact with Time Stop?
etc.
~P
While I am still uncertain and unconvinced about this rings interaction with a certain time altering 9th level spell, I am also equally (and still) concerned about this item's relative cost.
Lets take, for example, Spell Absorption, a 5th level spell from the Inner Sea World Guide. It has a duration of 1 round / level, and has the very saucy effect of "If you successfully counterspell a 3rd-level or lower level spell (through either dispel magic or normal means) while spell absorption is in effect, you absorb the countered spell and use it to regain spells you have already cast. If you’re a wizard, you regain the use of any single spell that you have cast since the last time you prepared spells. If you’re a sorcerer, you regain a single spell slot."
By the normal printed item creation guidelines in the CRB, making a ring that gives you this spells effects for 24 hours would cost... at least 360,000 gp. (spell level * caster level * continuous effect * original spell duration of rounds) = (5 * 9 * 2,000 * 4).
Instead, use up one spell and pay a fraction of the cost for the same effect, which in this case in an effect that lets you regain cast spells. It's no infinite spells per day, but right now my concern is more for the disparity of cost.
Just for comparison sake:
A 1st level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 8,000 gp.
A 2nd level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 48,000 gp.
A 3rd level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 120,000 gp.
A 4th level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 224,000 gp.
A 5th level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 360,000 gp.
A 6th level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 528,000 gp.
A 7th level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 728,000 gp.
An 8th level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 960,000 gp.
A 9th level personal spell that is measured in rounds made into a continuous item would cost at least 1,224,000 gp.
Sure, this ring can only do one spell at a time, but one can also argue that it is more versatile because you can benefit from spell X for so long, then switch to spell Y simply by casting it, and it will last for as long as you want until you want to change up your buffs again and cast spell Z, which then continues to last all day long or until you get bored. And even then, at only 56,000 gp, for any personal spell measured in rounds per level higher than 2nd level, it's a STEAL!
Just some food for though.
~P
Let's keep track of what doesn't work, before we all get too worked up.
- True Strike does not work: "Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action"
- Time Stop does not work: "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time"
- Invisibility does work. So does a 20000gp Ring of Invisibility.
Or necromantic recorporation (see Second Darkness) and a dead Invisible stalker..
Does the ring of continuation (Ultimate Equipment, page 168) allow you to cast time stop with a duration of 24 hours?
This item has had some unintended consequences and needs a fix. Change the second sentence of the description to read as follows: "Whenever the wearer of the ring casts a spell with a range of personal and a duration of 10 minutes per level or greater, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first)."
That is from the latest FAQ.
That's a poor band-aid. What is 10 min/level duration? Is it less or greater than a 1 hour duration?
I understand what they were going for, they should've just restricted it to spells that have a duration of 30 minutes or more. That's a nice, hard number, no variance. True, it means 10 min/level spells don't qualify till CL 3. But what's a level 1-2 character doing with one of these rings anyway? 30 minutes is sufficient to preclude all round-based durations and min/level durations until CL 30, or CL 15 if extending it "counts", which it probably should not.
All that said, the ring is still broken. Just granting 24 hour "permanency" at all. Why isn't "10x normal duration" or the like ever good enough? It has to be a 24 hour effect...
That's a poor band-aid. What is 10 min/level duration? Is it less or greater than a 1 hour duration?
It follow this pattern.
Rounds per level
Minutes per level
10 min per level
hours per level
etc.
So anything that is minutes or less per level will not work with the ring. Leaving anything with 10 min/level and higher to work.
But not everything has durations in X per level increments like that. Some just have a flat rate of time, like 1 hour, or 24 hours, or Concentration. If I can concentrate for an hour, do I get to ring the spell? 2 hours? 6 hours?
What's the cut-off here?
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Isn't posting text verbatim a no no?
Just the same, it's OMG powerful. I haven't seen anything remotely on this level since Spell Perfection.
I'm VERY interested in hearing other people's ideas on how best to utilize it (and also, what kinds of combos the GM should be looking out for).
A few of my transmuter-type characters are throwing their hands up in the air and cheering and dancing right about now.
Posting text verbatim is fine. It'll be up on d20pfsrd very soon anyway (man this book is a b**** to get posted, though.)
But not everything has durations in X per level increments like that. Some just have a flat rate of time, like 1 hour, or 24 hours, or Concentration. If I can concentrate for an hour, do I get to ring the spell? 2 hours? 6 hours?
What's the cut-off here?
Simple. You only can use spells that have X per level. So 10 min/level, 1 hour/level etc.
That's certainly simple.
But it's kind of bs that a level 12 caster can turn his 120 min. duration spell into 24 hours but he couldn't turn his flat rate 6 hour duration spell into one.
Saying, "30 minutes or longer, without the benefit of extend spell, and its in" isn't terribly complex, either. If all that matters is simplicity.
Yar.
Well, that's simply the way the magic of this ring works now.
You are free to try and house rule it your way in your games, unless they're PFS games. In which case, unless and/or until the ring gets errata'ed again, the magic of the ring only attunes itself to personal magic (see: spell with a range of Personal) who's strength (see: duration) is based on the power (see: level) of the caster casting it so long as the strength (again: duration) is based on an increasing increment of 10 minutes (per level of the caster) or more (aka: hour per level, etc, so long as it is a X/per level).
That's the magic of this item as it currently stands.
Personally, I don't think it's BS. I find it is now much more in line with regards to power for price.
You still want a flat non-incremental spell to become 24 hours with this ring? Sorry, but that's not how the magic of the ring works. It's magic is turning incremental durations (within a range) into a flat duration (of 24 hours). That is what this ring does. But again - except for PFS - you are free to suggest your version as a house rule for your games.
~P
That's certainly simple.
But it's kind of bs that a level 12 caster can turn his 120 min. duration spell into 24 hours but he couldn't turn his flat rate 6 hour duration spell into one.
Saying, "30 minutes or longer, without the benefit of extend spell, and its in" isn't terribly complex, either. If all that matters is simplicity.
Perhaps after seeing the problem with the original wording for the ring they looked through the spells and thought using x per level spells(starting with 10 min/level) wouldn't be such a problem for balance. Maybe they didn't want those flat rate spells to work that long?