It seems counter-intuitive to me that Hideous characters (very low charisma) are at a disadvantage to Intimidate. Are there any feats or traits that reverse that trend? Where very ugly and scarred characters can use their appearance to *increase* their intimidation?
I understand that Charisma is considered "force of personality" more than appearance. But still, physical appearance contributes to whether people find you charming even though you're an idiot (high charisma) or horrifying even though you have a heart of gold (low charisma).
intimidating prowess feat, add STR bonus to intimidate
Thanks. Good thought for this scarred barbarian character.
Any other suggestions for turning a negative charisma into an intimidating advantage?
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Charisma is also a magnetism, sense of self and so forth. Low charisma characters are easy to push around and appear timid. I can't ever make a low cha barbarian or cavalier due to that.
Anyhow, there's no way to turn negative charisma into an advantage. The character will always be a sideshow for more forceful personalities. There's some traits you can take to up the mechanical side of things, but nothing significant. An inquisitor could use wisdom for Intimidation instead, however. Not sure you want to go there.
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Charisma is nothing to do with looks, it's force of personality and magnetism.
Choose another stat to dump next time.
Charisma is nothing to do with looks, it's force of personality and magnetism.
Choose another stat to dump next time.
not correct as it is now, Charisma is also Beauty, among other things
I think there is also a rogue trick btw which allows to use something else than Charisma on Intimidation
Charisma is nothing to do with looks, it's force of personality and magnetism.
Choose another stat to dump next time.
Decided to go to the rules on this one. Pfsrd defines Charisma:
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."And it's not for myself, it's for a barbarian in a game I'm GM'ing. He wrote a backstory that had him captured and tortured and hideously scarred. That's how he became an invulnerable rager. He's also perpetually mistrustful and angry as result. I want to reward him for writing a great backstory that explains his extra tough skin and low charisma.
I could just houserule it, but I was looking for something inside the rules to justify giving a 7' tall, horribly scarred, incredibly angry human man a bonus to intimidate. I didn't think it would be so difficult.
I did find that there's a +4 for larger creatures to intimidate smaller ones, so I think I can easily grant him that +4 towards most Medium and all Small creatures.
Charisma is nothing to do with looks, it's force of personality and magnetism.
Choose another stat to dump next time.
Decided to go to the rules on this one. Pfsrd defines Charisma:
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."And it's not for myself, it's for a barbarian in a game I'm GM'ing. He wrote a backstory that had him captured and tortured and hideously scarred. That's how he became an invulnerable rager. He's also perpetually mistrustful and angry as result. I want to reward him for writing a great backstory that explains his extra tough skin and low charisma.
I could just houserule it, but I was looking for something inside the rules to justify giving a 7' tall, horribly scarred, incredibly angry human man a bonus to intimidate. I didn't think it would be so difficult.
I did find that there's a +4 for larger creatures to intimidate smaller ones, so I think I can easily grant him that +4 towards most Medium and all Small creatures.
hm, if you want to grant him something consider to add Intimidating Prowess (Combat) or Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a free feat instead, it makes things simpler. Although due to background a free Toughness seems also plausible.
It seems counter-intuitive to me that Hideous characters (very low charisma) are at a disadvantage to Intimidate. Are there any feats or traits that reverse that trend? Where very ugly and scarred characters can use their appearance to *increase* their intimidation?
I understand that Charisma is considered "force of personality" more than appearance. But still, physical appearance contributes to whether people find you charming even though you're an idiot (high charisma) or horrifying even though you have a heart of gold (low charisma).
Appearance contributes, but isn't key. A big brute of a man whose voice sounds like Mickey Mouse just isn't intimidating. A beautiful woman who swears like a truck-driver just isn't diplomatic.
You've got the tools to model this admirably. They're called Skill Points. A low-Charisma character has something about them that is inherently not intimidating. But... they can work on it. Maybe the squeaky-voice guy learns to not talk while threatening people. He does the best he can with what life dealt him. He'll just never be as good as a big brute of a man who can also use is Vin Diesel voice to verbally threaten people.
Point is your Ability Scores generate your inherent nature. You use Skill Points to compensate as an individual.
Hideous = high Charisma.
A battle-scarred warrior has a very distinct presence, and can lead younger men into battle. And while you may shudder at the sight of a diseased-ravaged visage, there's an unmistakable fascination that makes you look.
Low Charisma people don't look ugly, they look stupid. Silly. They have the faces you laugh at, instead of laugh with.
Hideous = high Charisma.
A battle-scarred warrior has a very distinct presence, and can lead younger men into battle. And while you may shudder at the sight of a diseased-ravaged visage, there's an unmistakable fascination that makes you look.
Low Charisma people don't look ugly, they look stupid. Silly. They have the faces you laugh at, instead of laugh with.
No.
There's lots of different ways to get a bad reaction, what matters for the charisma is that its a bad reaction. It doesn't matter if its a laugh or people moving to the other side of the street when they see you coming.
It seems counter-intuitive to me that Hideous characters (very low charisma) are at a disadvantage to Intimidate.
Intimidate isn't the ability to scare people: its the ability to scare people the right way. If you lift a peasant up by the collar darth vadar style and put a flaming sword in his face he WILL be scared: the trick is to getting him scared enough that he tells the truth rather than telling you what you want to hear or wetting himself and collapsing in a dead heap.
Actually BigNorseWolf I'd defend VRMH's viewpoint. Battle-scars that compel people to obey you are a sign of high-Charisma. You're not pretty, but your features compel people to react the way you want them to. Basically if you work backwards from the result (people are intimidated by you) then you by definition have high Charisma.
If he really wants to get around a horrid CHA score for Intimidate, he can take a 1 level dip in the talkiest of Inquisitor builds to move Intimidate over to WIS. (Heresy or Conversion Inquisition)
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I doubt whether many people on these boards are old enough to remember Fonzie on "Happy Days". Fonzie was "cool" - the character had extraordinary charisma. Fonzie never threatened anyone by word, deed or gesture. He never so much as raised a fist. He glared at people and they backed down. Was/is Henry Winkler amazingly good looking? He didn't have to be - he was , for cryin' out loud!
But to the original question, you could use the Skill Focus feat to gain +3 to Intimidate (+6 if you have, I think, 10 skill ranks).
Actually BigNorseWolf I'd defend VRMH's viewpoint. Battle-scars that compel people to obey you are a sign of high-Charisma. You're not pretty, but your features compel people to react the way you want them to. Basically if you work backwards from the result (people are intimidated by you) then you by definition have high Charisma.
[Battle scars that compel people to obey] are a method of showing a high charisma.
[Batle scars] is not. Its all about how other people react to them (which is in part related to how people use them)
People can either look at the scars and say "Damn, he's badass, lets follow him" or they can look at the scars and say "Well SOMEONE"s obviously made some bad tactical decisions i think i'm going to stay here... "
On topic, the Heresy Inquisition allows you to substitute your Wis for your Cha for Intimidate and Bluff. A friend of mine playing an Oread monk/Inquisitor of Iomedae uses this and Intimidating Prowess to great effect, +22 to Int at level 7.
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For the record, while appearance does contribute, I think people are a bit confused about what it means by appearance. It's not just 'appearance' as in 'How good looking you are.' Somebody else already touched on this with the Aberrations and Pit Fiends having high CHA, but their CHA isn't immaterial to their fearsome or ugly visage---it's a part of it.
If you dump CHA, don't expect to have much force of personality, even if that force is just to scare others. (That's actually why I hate Inquisitors using WIS for Intimidate---WIS can contribute in pointing out where they're weakest, but CHA is still required to effectively use that information.)
Speaking of...
Low charisma characters don't necessarily look any less attractive than other characters. Low charisma characters are the ones who break wind at the dinner party with the Duke or, after finding out that the high priestess' son was just slain in battle, asks if he or she can have their stuff. Or who tells jokes and laughs out loud at funerals, or who constantly scratches themselves in public, or squeezes zits in public, or...
Most of these things to me point to a low WIS character. Several of those situations will be acceptable/downright hilarious to the right company, but low-WIS can't see the difference. A low CHA character is the one whose company you couldn't stand because they're simply so dull. Can't get through a joke without giggling and blowing the punchline, mumbles constantly, has no idea how to effectively communicate ideas and is always being misunderstood.
Intimidate is all about charisma. Remember its not just looking scary, it's knowing what really scares people and manipulating them through their fear.
Some perfect examples of intimidate:
In the first Shrek movie, Shrek confronts a group of villages coming to get him. He roars at them and they all just stand there. He has to tell them they need to run away.
The high charisma bard intimidates better than a fighter.
(That's actually why I hate Inquisitors using WIS for Intimidate---WIS can contribute in pointing out where they're weakest, but CHA is still required to effectively use that information.)
Actually, it looks like only Inquisitors with the Conversion and Heresy Inquisitions can do this.
Orcs and half orcs get a +2 intimidate bonus. Ask your barbarian if he's got any orc blood in his lineage?
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You could also look at as a big scarred barbarian with low charisma being scary but not knowing how to use that fear. Intimidation is about manipulating people through fear, not just making them scared of you.
Maybe he's so scary that people just run in terror when he makes a ruckus rather than timidly doing what they're told.
A cleric can choose an inquisition too.(That's actually why I hate Inquisitors using WIS for Intimidate---WIS can contribute in pointing out where they're weakest, but CHA is still required to effectively use that information.)Actually, it looks like only Inquisitors with the Conversion and Heresy Inquisitions can do this.
True, but he specifically called out Inquisitors. :)
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I dumped Strength but I think my character should be really good at hitting and damaging things. Because he's um, tough.
Can I use my Con to get hit and damage bonuses?
I wrote a really good backstory too!
Low charisma characters don't necessarily look any less attractive than other characters. Low charisma characters are the ones who break wind at the dinner party with the Duke or, after finding out that the high priestess' son was just slain in battle, asks if he or she can have their stuff. Or who tells jokes and laughs out loud at funerals, or who constantly scratches themselves in public, or squeezes zits in public, or...
That is social behavior, doesn't really relate to Charisma but more to Wisdom and Intelligence, and acceptance of actions like those also differ per various cultures.
A high Charisma person could get a round of applause or friendly laughter when farting at that dinner, could get the stuff of the dead person if it asks for it, and everyone would laugh at their jokes at the funeral even the priest.
I dumped Strength but I think my character should be really good at hitting and damaging things. Because he's um, tough.
Can I use my Con to get hit and damage bonuses?
I wrote a really good backstory too!
Intimidation can be done through sheer power of Presence (Charisma), with brute force (Strength), or clever planning (Intelligence). You can get the skill to work with one of these attributes already if you pick some abilities either the Rogue or Godling grants (and other classes/archetypes), or some feat.
There are already options to have Con/Dex/Wis/Cha modifiers to certain attacks and damage, or to AC already as well.
The difference between a dumped charisma score and a nice charisma score is barely perceptible in play anyway. Even if you don't really like any of the (relatively small) number of ways to use another stat for Intimidate, simply by putting points into intimidate (something most characters don't do), you're going to be among the best intimidators in the party initially, and eventually be the best, unless there's a high cha character who's also putting points into intimidate. Stats aren't a very important factor in how good you are at skills, and they get less important as you level up. People tend to grossly overestimate the difference between an 8 and a 12. (The difference is "very small, so small that if you didn't tell anyone what number was written on the sheet, they probably couldn't tell based on the results of your rolls.")
Also, for intimidate the DC's are so low and the defenses against it so few and far between that you'll succeed a reasonable number of times even with cha penalties.
You could also look at as a big scarred barbarian with low charisma being scary but not knowing how to use that fear. Intimidation is about manipulating people through fear, not just making them scared of you.
Maybe he's so scary that people just run in terror when he makes a ruckus rather than timidly doing what they're told.
If you've seen the movie, The Godfather, Luca Brazi is a perfect example of the CHA dump stat. He's big, yes. He's scary looking, yes. But, he can't even talk to someone without rehearsing his speech, and then he stumbles all over his words, and looks like an idiot when talking.
Now, have him backing up Don Corleone (very high CHA), who is making the threats (i.e. "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse."), and that is intimidating.
Yeah you might be slightly worse than a high CHA Intimidate maxed PC but you'll still be good. If you care at Skill focus and max it out.
And I can't remember if it is specifically spelled out in Pf but it is normal to allow different abilities to apply to skills if the DM sees fit, like crushing something with your bare hands to use STR bonus for Intimidate.
Charisma is also a magnetism, sense of self and so forth. Low charisma characters are easy to push around and appear timid. I can't ever make a low cha barbarian or cavalier due to that.
Anyhow, there's no way to turn negative charisma into an advantage. The character will always be a sideshow for more forceful personalities. There's some traits you can take to up the mechanical side of things, but nothing significant. An inquisitor could use wisdom for Intimidation instead, however. Not sure you want to go there.
Actually, I found exactly one way to turn a negative charisma modifier into an advantage: A wild rager can reduce the save DC to avoid becoming or remaining confused by dumping his charisma as low as possible (the save DC being 10 + barbarian level + Cha modifier). Frankly, I think the developers should have made that 10 + 1/2 barbarian level + Wis modifier, since wisdom is the only stat that would not make the save more difficult as it got higher.
Whenever I'm tempted to dump-stat charisma, I remember the perfect film example of a 7 charisma: the Stapler Guy from "Office Space".
While that might be fun sometime, it's not how I view most of my heroic characters...
Whenever I'm tempted to dump-stat charisma, I remember the perfect film example of a 7 charisma: the Stapler Guy from "Office Space".
While that might be fun sometime, it's not how I view most of my heroic characters...
i think the ranks he got in profession: arson seemed to pay off in the end...
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Whenever I'm tempted to dump-stat charisma, I remember the perfect film example of a 7 charisma: the Stapler Guy from "Office Space". While that might be fun sometime, it's not how I view most of my heroic characters...
Precisely.
My biggest RPG hate is players who dump Chr, then insist that their character is cool or impressive or 'beautiful' (Penny Arcade, I'm looking at you...)
By all means take a substitute feat or archetype if it's in the rules, but insisting the GM handwave things like Intimidate is pure munchkinism...
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I roleplay my low cha characters as timid or minionish. An ekujae inquisitor of Abadar of mine is a real smooth talker, but people need to constantly pester her to appear more menacing and forceful, because her sheepish nature doesn't really go well with interrogations. Really good people person, but tends to squirm when people shout out loud. Even her sword has more sense of presence :D
Then there's my dwarven sohei, who does ooze authority from every pore of his being thanks to his background as a notable colonial figurehead and warleader, but he's pretty worthless in pushing people around and would rather be left to deal with combat situations and engineering than be forced to pester people for provisions or ask for reinforcements. He's learned some statecraft and rhetorics(ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive), but that only makes him competent, not successful.
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You could also look at as a big scarred barbarian with low charisma being scary but not knowing how to use that fear. Intimidation is about manipulating people through fear, not just making them scared of you.
Maybe he's so scary that people just run in terror when he makes a ruckus rather than timidly doing what they're told.
If you've seen the movie, The Godfather, Luca Brazi is a perfect example of the CHA dump stat. He's big, yes. He's scary looking, yes. But, he can't even talk to someone without rehearsing his speech, and then he stumbles all over his words, and looks like an idiot when talking.
Now, have him backing up Don Corleone (very high CHA), who is making the threats (i.e. "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse."), and that is intimidating.
"Give us the gate key."
"I have no gate key.""Fezzik, tear his arms off."
"Oh, you mean this gate key."
"Give us the gate key."
"I have no gate key."
"Fezzik, tear his arms off."
"Oh, you mean this gate key."
That's a horrible example! Fezzik had
/pun =)
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"Give us the gate key."
"I have no gate key."
"Fezzik, tear his arms off."
"Oh, you mean this gate key."That's a horrible example! Fezzik had
/pun =)
True.isn't Fezzik a wonderful character?
Don't talk to me about puns. I tried to name our pet tortoise, "Studs Turtle". Fortunately, better judgment prevailed.
It seems counter-intuitive to me that Hideous characters (very low charisma) are at a disadvantage to Intimidate. Are there any feats or traits that reverse that trend? Where very ugly and scarred characters can use their appearance to *increase* their intimidation?
There's the Bully social trait (+1 to Intimidate checks, Intimidate is always a class skill). Others have mentioned Intimidating Prowess and Skill Focus (Intimidate). Some classes/archetypes also gain bonuses to Intimidate checks.
Ultimately, low Cha characters have enough options to overcome the ability score penalty to social skills and be effective. It just takes a bit of effort.