In my nearly 30 years on this planet, I have noticed an odd trend by people to stand in front of the "Steamroller of Progress" and try to stop it.
I am not exactly sure why they do it. It's a fruitless activity.
Let's take countries for example. Of the flags represented at the UN, 2/3rds did not exist in their current form 60 years ago. Nations are temporary configurations of borders destined to collapse and be reformed... so why are people patriotic? Why drive toward the survival of a nation that was destined to fail at the moment it formed?
Or racism. Race is a temporary configuration of genetic traits destined to evolve and change into something different. The races that exist today won't exist forever, so why try to maintain the purity of something never meant to survive?
Or religion. All religions fall, and then are replaced with new ones. So why hold onto 1000, 2000, 3000 year old belief structures destined to die?
Our sun only has 3 or 4 billion years left, the universe itself is about "half dead" by most mathematical estimations, so why do people seem to hold onto these ideas of eternal values, be they race, religion, or nation when we KNOW there is no eternal anything?
The end result of all actions is the heat death of the universe. With that in mind, a lot of stuff people do is pretty bloody silly.
"Your idea sounds reasonable, but it is unfamiliar and frightening, so I must kill you." -- Lothar of the Hill People.
Personally, I don't think most people have a very solid concept of eternal beyond their own lifespan, they just don't like unfamiliar things. I'm particularly reminded of the hullabaloo caused by the cloning of Dolly the sheep. Most of the people I heard railing against cloning were in fact talking about genetic modification rather than cloning. I would point out that we'd been taking cuttings from plants for hundreds if not thousands of years, and the point would go right over their heads.
I find the aversion to genetic engineering and things like cybernetics to be confusing.
In a sense, evolution itself is genetic engineering, just by natural selection instead of intelligent selection.
By harnessing the ability to modify genes ourselves, all we're doing is taking the slow, inefficient process of natural evolution and making it better.
We could colonize more planets by genetically engineering colonists to survive in atypical environments, such as low or high gravity.
We could eliminate many disease and disorders, make all future offspring smarter, faster, stronger.
It was always our "destiny" to evolve again, why not be the masters of said evolution?
Basically, people are frightened by the unknown, and thus, try to keep what they know around as long as possible. I guess that this is based on our instincts. Animals often react frightened to unknown phenomena as well.
And people need a group to belong to, and this is accomplished in an easy way if it "us" against "them", however "us" is defined, along national, racial, sexual, occupational or whatever lines. P&P players vs. CCGers vs. LARPers vs. WOW fans etc. This is another facet of "keep what you know".
By harnessing the ability to modify genes ourselves, all we're doing is taking the slow, inefficient process of natural evolution and making it better.
Slow? sure. Inefficent? I don´t know. Mankinds understanding of genetics is not deep enough yet to truly judge the efficency of natural evolution, let alone the consequences of tinkering with it.
Better is a subjective term.
Who knows how the decisions made today will affect the planet 500 years from now?
The most horrible atrocity could lead to a paradise in 1000 years while stopping it could lead to a worse one hundreds of years before that.
There is only progress at varying speeds.
Because we don't all necessarily trust that the people developing and pushing the technology either know what they're doing or are aiming for good outcomes?
Should we all have gotten behind eugenics back in the 20s and 30s?
Faster isn't always better.
This. I got no problem with new ideas and new technologies. I do constantly rail against the way some of those new ideas and technologies are used.
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In my nearly 30 years on this planet, I have noticed an odd trend by people to stand in front of the "Steamroller of Progress" and try to stop it.
Well, quite simply, different people have different definitions of what "progress" really is. One person's progress might be what another person thinks is the world's descent into madness and immorality. Certain groups just manage to get their beliefs about what needs to change in the world labeled as "progress" so that they can get everyone else to think they're right and create that unstoppable "steamroller" you mentioned.
At various speeds, including backwards.Better is a subjective term.
Who knows how the decisions made today will affect the planet 500 years from now?
The most horrible atrocity could lead to a paradise in 1000 years while stopping it could lead to a worse one hundreds of years before that.
There is only progress at varying speeds.
Between 1800 and now every measurable metric of human improvement has increased in every country on earth.
There is no evidence that shows this will stop, or even slow. It's actually increasing exponentially.
Today is the greatest day to be alive in human history.
Tomorrow will be superior.
At various speeds, including backwards.Better is a subjective term.
Who knows how the decisions made today will affect the planet 500 years from now?
The most horrible atrocity could lead to a paradise in 1000 years while stopping it could lead to a worse one hundreds of years before that.
There is only progress at varying speeds.
Agreed Jeff; it's only called progress once we can use hindsight to name it as such. Not to get political, but the Taliban saw denying women the right to vote (or do anything, really) as progress.
Not everything that looks like progress is truly progress. (IMO, nuclear power turns out to be not really a progress in the long run. It might even have hindered the development of other energy sources.)
Of course, you only know that in hindsight, but history teaches to be cautious if something is declared to be a progress. Risk evaluation is important nowadays.
Someone coined a phrase that "humanity develops from the primitive via the complicated towards the simple". Seeing the development of wind energy in the last few decades, this might have some truth to it - using wind for energy is as old as civilisation itself, I´d think. We went from using wood, coal, oil and nuclear energy for powering, and go back to wind, water and sun gradually now.
A lot of that is the minutia and noise of looking at the micro.
When you look at the micro, you see our dependence on fossil fuels, the problems with nuclear, you see genocide and mass killings, you see loss of freedoms, reduction of GDP etc.
But when you pull back and look at the macro and look at trends over 100 and 200 year periods, you see that all that bad stuff is just noise.
The trend is ALWAYS upward.
We're on track to have no person on earth living on less than 1 dollar a day by 2025. Sure, 1.01 per day isn't exactly great, but that's a milestone. Poverty is shrinking.
The AIDS epidemic in Africa has peaked, they are having less new cases every year so we're seeing the decline and the eventual end of that epidemic.
The world is getting better every day.
Our sun only has 3 or 4 billion years left, the universe itself is about "half dead" by most mathematical estimations, so why do people seem to hold onto these ideas of eternal values, be they race, religion, or nation when we KNOW there is no eternal anything?
The end result of all actions is the heat death of the universe. With that in mind, a lot of stuff people do is pretty bloody silly.
The thing is, we don't really know. We can infere, we can speculate, but ultimately the only thing we know for certain is that historical information cannot predict future events.
When there is uncertainty, there is hope. We humans are good at hope; it's usually what makes us move forward under otherwise impossible odds and, sometimes, succeed. And it is for those sometimes that we fight, endure, dedicate, and become passionate about, be it for good or bad.
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Our sun only has 3 or 4 billion years left, the universe itself is about "half dead" by most mathematical estimations, so why do people seem to hold onto these ideas of eternal values, be they race, religion, or nation when we KNOW there is no eternal anything?
I keep hoping technology will improve sufficiently within my lifetime to allow me to witness such events.
Not likely, but I keep hoping.
In my nearly 30 years on this planet, I have noticed an odd trend by people to stand in front of the "Steamroller of Progress" and try to stop it.
I am not exactly sure why they do it. It's a fruitless activity.
Let's take countries for example. Of the flags represented at the UN, 2/3rds did not exist in their current form 60 years ago. Nations are temporary configurations of borders destined to collapse and be reformed... so why are people patriotic? Why drive toward the survival of a nation that was destined to fail at the moment it formed?
Or racism. Race is a temporary configuration of genetic traits destined to evolve and change into something different. The races that exist today won't exist forever, so why try to maintain the purity of something never meant to survive?
Or religion. All religions fall, and then are replaced with new ones. So why hold onto 1000, 2000, 3000 year old belief structures destined to die?
Our sun only has 3 or 4 billion years left, the universe itself is about "half dead" by most mathematical estimations, so why do people seem to hold onto these ideas of eternal values, be they race, religion, or nation when we KNOW there is no eternal anything?
The end result of all actions is the heat death of the universe. With that in mind, a lot of stuff people do is pretty bloody silly.
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Define "Progress".
I don't think that word means what you think it means -- Inigo Montoya
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Don't underestimate the inclination to hang onto one's privilege. History has taught us that when one group of people has some sort of privilege that others do not, they will fight bitterly to maintain that privileged status, because there is a psychological component to feeling superior to other people.
Look at the fall of the nobility in Europe, colonialism, women's suffrage, slavery, civil rights, economic inequalities...
When progress involves a movement towards a freer or more egalitarian state, those invested with privilege will fight it tooth and nail.
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Or you could look at the environment.
The mass extinctions we've already caused.
The potential devastation of climate change.
The chemicals poisoning the waters.
The acidification of the oceans.
The mountains destroyed by strip mining.Some has gotten better in the last few decades, some have continued getting worse. Almost all the damage done in the last few hundred years.
Again, noise. We have the technology to survive global warming. Not all of us, but enough.
We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.
Not to mention that with genetic engineering, we could potentially just modify our future generations to drink that poison water.
The humanity of the future may be half-machine hybrids living on a very different world, but they'll be there and their lives will probably be easier and happier than ours.
Or you could look at the environment.
The mass extinctions we've already caused.
The potential devastation of climate change.
The chemicals poisoning the waters.
The acidification of the oceans.
The mountains destroyed by strip mining.Some has gotten better in the last few decades, some have continued getting worse. Almost all the damage done in the last few hundred years.
Again, noise. We have the technology to survive global warming. Not all of us, but enough.
We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.
Not to mention that with genetic engineering, we could potentially just modify our future generations to drink that poison water.
The humanity of the future may be half-machine hybrids living on a very different world, but they'll be there and their lives will probably be easier and happier than ours.
That 'noise' you refer to directly impacts people's lives. I care about the people of the future, but I'm not building their future at the cost of today's people. Because the exact same reasoning can be applied to them, they can sacrifice some of their well being to improve our condition.
No one should inherently be valued over others. We should focus on making our world better right now, while still leaving it in a condition that is useable for those in the future. Future people can worry about future problems, we just need to worry about not passing on our problems.
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Again, noise. We have the technology to survive global warming. Not all of us, but enough.
We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.
Not to mention that with genetic engineering, we could potentially just modify our future generations to drink that poison water.
The humanity of the future may be half-machine hybrids living on a very different world, but they'll be there and their lives will probably be easier and happier than ours.
So, poisoned water, global warming, tube-grown meat and science-fiction cybernetics is progress? Well then... this is not my dystopia here.
Needing other species - well, I don´t know, I like eating honey, real meat, eggs, bread and other regular food. Without other species, these would be impossible to get. And the processing of eaten food is impossible without micro-organisms. Humankind will probably die out shortly if we really manage to kill all other species. Ecological equilibrium is not just a buzzword.
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Not to mention a few years ago we were quite sure we could easily substitute fruit and vegetables with parmaceutical vitamins - tzen we learned we may need some of the not yet pharmaceutically created secondary ingrediants of those fruits and vegetables - we mare not there yet - and we may well never be.
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We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.
Discounting the value of ALL OTHER SPECIES OF LIFE on this planet other than human beings because we don't need them to survive is deeply DEEPLY troubling and astoundingly shortsighted. We are part of an incredibly complex ecosystem that we can't replace technologically. Nor should we even think of it--other creatures have the same right to exist as we do.
To be frank, I don't "need" more than a few million other humans. So I guess I can murder strangers with alacrity!
We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.Discounting the value of ALL OTHER SPECIES OF LIFE on this planet other than human beings because we don't need them to survive is deeply DEEPLY troubling and astoundingly shortsighted. We are part of an incredibly complex ecosystem that we can't replace technologically. Nor should we even think of it--other creatures have the same right to exist as we do.
To be frank, I don't "need" more than a few million other humans. So I guess I can murder strangers with alacrity!
I'm surprised you depend on that many people, Meat; I'd like to "progress" the global population down into the tens of thousands. :P
I'm surprised you depend on that many people, Meat; I'd like to "progress" the global population down into the tens of thousands. :P
We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.Discounting the value of ALL OTHER SPECIES OF LIFE on this planet other than human beings because we don't need them to survive is deeply DEEPLY troubling and astoundingly shortsighted. We are part of an incredibly complex ecosystem that we can't replace technologically. Nor should we even think of it--other creatures have the same right to exist as we do.
To be frank, I don't "need" more than a few million other humans. So I guess I can murder strangers with alacrity!
So here's the thing. I think I've posted this mini-manifesto before, and I'll likely do it again, but here's my view on the whole situation:
I don't like people. I don't like them individually, and I don't like them collectively. People by and large suck, they are jerks, and they are dumb.
However. I DO like a lot of the cultural products we've created. Books, music, film, art (especially architecture), games. I'm very happy with having a robust population in a civilized society making those things for me to enjoy, albeit from afar.
And when we talk about an economic or societal collapse scenario, my FIRST (and arguably only) priority is to preserve the culture that humanity has created, and at this point we need a large infrastructure to maintain much of that culture.
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The end result of all actions is the heat death of the universe. With that in mind, a lot of stuff people do is pretty bloody silly.
This is why I do a lot of drugs.
All the death and suffering, just noise. Someday the genetically engineered half-machine people who inhabit the devastation we leave behind will be happier than we are, so rejoice.
Huh. Maybe I should check this thread out...
The end result of all actions is the heat death of the universe. With that in mind, a lot of stuff people do is pretty bloody silly.This is why I do a lot of drugs.
A lot as in a variety?
Or a lot as in mass quantities?Or both?
I just wish I could find the hookup around here to my drug of choice. Everyone around here is a pothead, and I'm not apt to puff the stuff.
We don't NEED other species. It sucks that we're wiping them out, but we can already grow meat in a tube.Discounting the value of ALL OTHER SPECIES OF LIFE on this planet other than human beings because we don't need them to survive is deeply DEEPLY troubling and astoundingly shortsighted. We are part of an incredibly complex ecosystem that we can't replace technologically. Nor should we even think of it--other creatures have the same right to exist as we do.
To be frank, I don't "need" more than a few million other humans. So I guess I can murder strangers with alacrity!
That's OK. That's in his glorious future too:
Again, noise. We have the technology to survive global warming. Not all of us, but enough.All the death and suffering, just noise. Someday the genetically engineered half-machine people who inhabit the devastation we leave behind will be happier than we are, so rejoice. Your suffering leads to a better future.
Half machine?! Haven't you read Appleseed or Ghost in the Shell? Won't be no meat in my Robobod{tm} outside the gray matter!
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@Citizen Meatrace:'S all good.
@Everyone else: Alright, folks, it's been a great week of politrolling with y'all.
I think we did real good, over all, had some laughs, cried some tears, got insulted, yelled at [Fill in blank].
Paizo OTD rules!!
Oh, one more thing, I forgot:
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Oh, one more thing, I forgot:
I knew what that link was before I clicked it.
You're too predictable.And you like bad hippie music.
Oh, one more thing, I forgot:
I knew what that link was before I clicked it.
You're too predictable.
And you like bad hippie music.
Because sometimes, just because an idea looks like the way of the future, doesn't mean its not a bad idea.
I knew what that link was before I clicked it.
You're too predictable.
Isn't it reassuring to know that in an ever-changing and unpredictable world, you can always rely on Doodlebug Anklebiter?
Oh yeah, I wanted to say:
Progress is great and all, but I've always felt a real sympathy for General Ludd's army.
Vive le Galt!
Isn't it reassuring to know that in an ever-changing and unpredictable world, you can always rely on Doodlebug Anklebiter?
Now that you have secured the nomination of the WPABGTDG, I think this will make a great slogan when you run for president.
Ah Nihilism, the philosophical doctrine suggesting nothing, for nothing, with nothing, because of nothing.
I have nothing to say about that.
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Ah Nihilism, the philosophical doctrine suggesting nothing, for nothing, with nothing, because of nothing.I have nothing to say about that.
If were not a little mad and generally silly I should give you my advice upon the subject, willy-nilly; I should show you in a moment how to grapple with the question, and you'd really be astonished at the force of my suggestion.
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Hey! That's my schtick!
WPABGTDG
??
World-Party of Anklebiter Greatness to Dominate Golarian?
If you like Fugazi, I also recommend Wugazi. It is pure awesome. Plus, it still applies to our current nihilism topic.
WPABGTDG??
World-Party of Anklebiter Greatness to Dominate Golarian?
Worker's Party for the Advancement of Both Goblinkind and Thewhiteknife's Desire for Graft.