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Hello, I was wondering if anyone knows for sure if I can apply the Skirmisher Ranger archetype that replaces spellcasting at level 5, or if that is something I had to apply at level 1. In the guide, it just says "If you wish to apply a legal archetype to your character, you may do so at 1st level as normal. Additionally, you may apply an archetype to an existing class at any time you level up as long as the first alternate ability does not replace an ability granted at a previous level".
Technically, I don't get spell-casting till level 4 for high Wisdom, or level 5 normally. However, I'm able to benefit from wand use from level 1. Is it too late to apply the archetype if I do it at level 5, where I would still have access to wand use levels 1-4?
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Correct. As long as you have not yet reached a level/gained a class feature altered by an archetype, you may apply it after character creation. As the only change made by Skirmisher is to spell casting at level 4.
But you raise a good point; since you can technically utilize Spell Trigger items prior to Level 4...does this mean you've accessed the class feature and therefor, cannot apply the archetype?
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I could come up with all sorts of story reasons why my character could start using wands and then later loses access, but I don't want to break any rules here. The wording from the guide made it seem as if you could only start with a single archetype, so I held off ( I have three arhwtypes to apply, ones at 1st, one at 2nd, and then this one at 5th).
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I could come up with all sorts of story reasons why my character could start using wands and then later loses access, but I don't want to break any rules here. The wording from the guide made it seem as if you could only start with a single archetype, so I held off ( I have three arhwtypes to apply, ones at 1st, one at 2nd, and then this one at 5th).
Well, spellcasting is granted at level 4, so that's the latest you could take the archetype in terms of named abilities for the class. But I'd probably argue that since the archetype explicitly replaces the ability to use spell trigger and spell completion items, and since that is available to you at level 1, you'd have to apply the archetype upon creation.
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On a related note, could the same be said about the Trapper ranger? While yes, it does alter the class skill and provide trapfinding, the first ability it replaces is at 5th level. Could the same be said about the Trapper archetype, in that it could be taken after 1st level so long as it is taken at 5th or before?
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This is one of those weird edge cases, but I think you should still be able to apply the skirmisher archetype. Technically you don't get the spell-casting class feature until level 5 so it should be okay. Since you know you'll be trading it out though, it's probably best to just apply the archetype as soon as possible.
A Ranger gets the spell-casting class feature at 4. Doesn't matter if they don't have any spells till 5.
And he may be okay until level 4, but if he's using spell completion/trigger items up to that point, he's kind of breaking the RAI for Archetypes. The whole idea is that you can't pick and choose the abilities you want, swapping them out as you level.
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On a related note, could the same be said about the Trapper ranger? While yes, it does alter the class skill and provide trapfinding, the first ability it replaces is at 5th level. Could the same be said about the Trapper archetype, in that it could be taken after 1st level so long as it is taken at 5th or before?
It's not the level of the new ability that determines when it can be taken, it's the level at which the replaced ability would normally be gained. Since spellcasting (but not necessarily spells) is given at level 4, that's the cut-off. But again, I wouldn't be surprised if word came down that you'd have to take it at level 1 since you'd have access to spellcasting class features from the start.
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I think you are operating under a couple of misapprehensions.
1) The only limit to the number of archetypes you can take when taking the initial level in class X is that every archetype taken does not replace any of the same features as any other archetype.
2) The rule for allowing PFS characters to take an archetype after first level was to allow some of the people who would have taken X archetype, if they had known it existed, to take it if they weren't making too extreme a change to their PC.
3) Because the skirmisher archetype changes the "use a spell trigger and spell completion" ability that a normal Ranger has at first level, it must be taken at the same time as the first level of Ranger. Anything else moves into extremely grey areas that could, all too easily, lead to accusations of cheating. Not good.
4) Because both Trapper and Skirmisher replace the Ranger spellcasting ability, they cannot both be taken on the same Ranger PC. Whichever one is taken must be taken with the first level of Ranger, as they both modify the Ranger's ability to use spell completion & trigger items, which is a class feature available at first level.
My advice, if your Ranger has only 3 XP or less, is to put the character aside until August 16th, when the 1st level retraining rules go live, and see if those rules would allow you to add the archetypes you want to your character.
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4) Because both Trapper and Skirmisher replace the Ranger spellcasting ability, they cannot both be taken on the same Ranger PC. Whichever one is taken must be taken with the first level of Ranger, as they both modify the Ranger's ability to use spell completion & trigger items, which is a class feature available at first level.
Wait, so you can apply multiple archtypes to the same class, as long as they don't replace the same features?
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4) Because both Trapper and Skirmisher replace the Ranger spellcasting ability, they cannot both be taken on the same Ranger PC. Whichever one is taken must be taken with the first level of Ranger, as they both modify the Ranger's ability to use spell completion & trigger items, which is a class feature available at first level.Wait, so you can apply multiple archtypes to the same class, as long as they don't replace the same features?
Yes.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.
Skirmishers get their abilities at 5th level, but they replace abilities that rangers get at first level and fourth level (Spell trigger items and Spellcasting). If your character has never used wands then I would let it fly as a gray area, but if you've been taking advantage of a spell trigger item, then you are using an ability the skirmisher explicitly replaces and I'd say you cannot take the archetype.
It is one of those rare and rather frustrating archetypes where you have delayed gratification. The Alchemist has a few of those too where they take a hit at first level and don't get bonuses until later.
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Maybe guide 4.2 will clarify archetypes more (including the language that seems to say you can start with only one archetype and add the others later so long as you haven't already acquired a modified/replaced class feature).
Don't hold your breath. The Guide is already pretty beefy, and the goal is to streamline it, not add in more rules exceptions. FAQ maybe, guide, no.
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4) Because both Trapper and Skirmisher replace the Ranger spellcasting ability, they cannot both be taken on the same Ranger PC. Whichever one is taken must be taken with the first level of Ranger, as they both modify the Ranger's ability to use spell completion & trigger items, which is a class feature available at first level.Wait, so you can apply multiple archtypes to the same class, as long as they don't replace the same features?
Like kinevon said, it is legit as long as they don't replace the same class features. My Bard-chemist took 3 archetypes on her first level of Alchemist (Mindchemist, Vivisectionist and Internal Alchemist)
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Oh well - if I had known I could apply them all at once I would have. But I don't want to be accused of cheating, and I have used a ranger wand twice, so I won't apply the spell-replacing template. Thank you all for the feedback - Gravity Bow is pretty fun after all, I'll make the most of it!
If you're looking for a fun archetype that gives you extra tricks like the Skirmisher, check out the Infiltrator. If I'm reading it right, you can take it up till level 3.
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That is an awesome one - unfortunately I'm playing a freebooter, so I don't have favored enemy which Infiltrator is tied to. But I do get to swap out favored terrain for the Shapeshifter archetype, which just requires I take the natural combat style (which works for weapon users, as you can choose weapon focus and the two vital strike feats). My dervish bard/range fights with his scimitar as if it were a natural weapon (or will once I get those feats)!