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You still miss the point of the Second Amendment. Doesn't matter if they have cruise missiles and the like, the intent of the amendment was that a well armed population is harder to oppress.
If you so dislike the intent of that amendment, we have a system in place to change the document. I am sick and tired of people going on about how "it's stale and irrelevant, blah blah blah", we've changed it several times to reflect more modern sensibilities, and, if you think, as a nation, our minds have changed on gun ownership, you're more than welcome to try and get it updated.
Well, you read the intent of the law from outside sources. And the people who interpret that law are the same ones that heard "alright, we can't keep slaves any more, free all the blacks" and said "what's that? corporations are people? check!"
Even if a considerable majority of citizens were in favor of amending that part of the document, do you really think it would be feasible? We're in legislative gridlock, with neither side budging, and we have a radicalized tea party movement that has grabbed more than a few state houses across the country, making implementation of any progressive amendments impossible.
Not outside sources. I pretty much took Jay, Hamilton and Madison at their word on that.
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I don't know what orifice you got the number from, but it's severely inaccurate.
I pulled it out the same orifice you did...
The internet...
I looked at several sources, with each one giving a different number. So the numbers I came up with are an average of the jumble of numbers available on the internet (my reasoning is that somewhere between all those differing statistics lay the truth)...
So, while I touted that 250 million number about, I ALWAYS prefaced it with "estimated"...
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Did you know...
That you already asked me...
Why I post like this...
A few years back...
I figured you were going for the Shatner effect.
Work within the system. Find someone decent and primary your Congressman. Run yourself. Get decent people elected at the state level where a small group of volunteers can actually have an effect.
Get other citizens to vote. We've got a pathetically low voter turnout. The more votes to swing the harder it is to swing them.
Exactly.
Think like the power-gaming gamer you are! Find the rules loopholes!Become your state or area's democratic or republican organizer. I forget the name for the position, but get appointed head of the body that selects primary candidates for non-federal elections. That's how the tea party won in 2010, they infiltrated the system. They saw a weak point in the system, exploited it to get radical candidates on the major party ticket, then did normal get out the vote stuff to get their new candidate elected.
If we're talking about playing to win, you have to think out of the box. You analyze the system as it is, without prior knowledge bias, and find the most efficient way of achieving your goal(s).
Not outside sources. I pretty much took Jay, Hamilton and Madison at their word on that.
I'm talking about outside the document.
I mean, if we're trying to decide the solution to a rules debate in Pathfinder, do we look at Jason's personal diary?We MIGHT ask for clarification, and errata. But you wouldn't use knowledge outside the rules system to inform an official interpretation of it.
So, while I touted that 250 million number about, I ALWAYS prefaced it with "estimated"...
Fair enough, but your estimate was, at best, more than double the actual number. Probably more than 3 times.
You could change the way all of that is handled, by then you are still left with an uncountable number of high capacity magazines and millions of firearms in the hands of people that do not wish to give them up...
Then don't take them. Just wait. It worked well enough for machine guns, and I'm not adverse to taking the long view.
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Not outside sources. I pretty much took Jay, Hamilton and Madison at their word on that.I'm talking about outside the document.
I mean, if we're trying to decide the solution to a rules debate in Pathfinder, do we look at Jason's personal diary?We MIGHT ask for clarification, and errata. But you wouldn't use knowledge outside the rules system to inform an official interpretation of it.
Fair enough. But reading them does give insight into RAI even if lawyers can twist RAW.
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Fair enough. But reading them does give insight into RAI even if lawyers can twist RAW.Not outside sources. I pretty much took Jay, Hamilton and Madison at their word on that.I'm talking about outside the document.
I mean, if we're trying to decide the solution to a rules debate in Pathfinder, do we look at Jason's personal diary?We MIGHT ask for clarification, and errata. But you wouldn't use knowledge outside the rules system to inform an official interpretation of it.
I guess this analogy makes the legislators players and the SCOTUS the DM ;)
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I guess this analogy makes the legislators players and the SCOTUS the DM ;)
No wonder they're a bunch of cheating *#($&*##* @(#*$#(@!&!( @(*(**# chinchillas.
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I guess this analogy makes the legislators players and the SCOTUS the DM ;)No wonder they're a bunch of cheating *#($&*##* @(#*$#(@!&!( @(*(**# chinchillas.
And I guess optimization boards would be ALEC.
And Jason Bulhman is President.Wee, this is fun!
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Here's the real mindf!@&:
You and me? We're the CHARACTERS!
Does that mean Lisa and Vic are Wall Street?
*ducks*
Naah, they are not "we don´t care, as long as profit is made" enough - by a long shot. (Heavens forbid paizo ever goes public to stock exchange - if only shareholder value counts, it would be a grim future indeed. Then the Asmodeans scored their final victory.)
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Just wait. It worked well enough for machine guns, and I'm not adverse to taking the long view.
Two problems with this...
1). The NFA was enacted in 1934, and in 1986 President Reagan signed an executive order banning the sale of newly manufactured "machine guns"...
2). The number of guns like the AR-15 are enumerable compared to the number of machine guns available between 1934 and 1986...
That means it would take far longer for what you propose than it did with the sale of "machine guns"...
America is a nation of instant gratification (I know I'm guilty of wanting what I want when I want it)...
I don't see there being the stomach for such a long wait, because again, given the sheer numbers involved, the perception would be "This isn't working!...
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Yup. I think it would be good for the country if the government / corporate overlords had more to worry about than peaceful protests. Unarmed citizens are basically serfs and as the government gets more and more efficient with better and better chemicals and robots, they will have less to fear by taking away our liberties.
And of course, that those weapons would be used far more against other citizens or by lawbreakers resisting the government when it's not taking away our liberties, but just doing its job is not important.
While criminals' illegal possession of military-grade ordinance does pose the risk that they'll turn these weapons against law enforcement agents "just doing their job", actual numbers show that such incidents very rarely happen. In 2011, 68 American police officers died from gunfire (A 13% rise from the previous year). The majority of these deaths involved handguns, with assault weapons only described in three instances (One of which involved Mexican drug cartel members ambushing American officials near Mexico City). While these deaths are tragic, they hardly support the claim that criminals use such weapons with any frequency.
Americans have been fortunate to live in a country whose government generally respects human rights, but recent history provides numerous frightening proofs that our government or military can forget its values when bad things happen. Over and over we've seen police and military forces dishonor their oaths of service while responding to terrorist attacks, natural disasters, or political embarassments. While the chance of a military coup d'etat or fascist political movement now seems remote, the people of 1930s Germany or Spain or 1920s Italy may have felt the same way.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria
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No snark, but who in American political office in the last 20 years do you think is/was an extreme leftist?Thread has attained resigned apathy.Our nation has attained resigned apathy.Which is how energized minorities of extremists (on both sides) win seats.
It isn't extreme left or right. It is focus on "I will vote on this" positions like Abortion, Guns, Endangered Species, Oil Pipelines...
You don't try to have a reasonable conversation about best possible solutions, you try to stir up single issue voters who will actually show up at the polls to stop people killing babies and/or owls.
I don't see there being the stomach for such a long wait, because again, given the sheer numbers involved, the perception would be "This isn't working!...
And then what happens? Nothing and we keep waiting, the same thing that happens now.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria
That is interesting. Beccarias ideas were not recognized during his lifetime (1738-1794), he spoke against death penalty and torture, which were seen as just and proper instruments of penalizing at that time. It would be interesting to hear if Jefferson took those ideas to heart as well.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'll go a little further than that, from the example of Holmes (yeah, I said his name). There's currently no mechanism to track the total amount of ammunition so far as I know, but when someone buys a 100 round magazine and 3000-6000 (reports vary) rounds of ammunition, that person should go on a "Hmm, that's interesting" list.
So when you have a bar tab, your name should go on a list as a possible drunk driver? Because you're probably about 1000 times more likely to drunk drive if you have a bar tab than spree murder if you buy bulk ammo.
Should your name go in a possible speeder registry if you buy a sports car?
I though Chicago alone has had over 600 homicides already? But that's mostly black on black crime, the media only cares about a bunch of white people getting shot, apparently, unless they can make a huge media circus around it (the Martin case).What happened in Aurora was a slaughter.
Some parts of Chicago are like Gaza or Michoacan. The only way to clean up the violence is by stomping on civil rights to put an end to the gangs and their supporters. They should be treated like domestic terrorists.Apparently, the Anaheim police agree with Citizen Aretas.
EDIT: Woops, wrong link!
Does the mob rule? Those "protesters" are destroying their own neighborhood! Perhaps that behavior is par for the course in 3rd world cess pools but not in sunny California. Are there any facts in this case?
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We get it. Cops can be as brutal as they want. They can shoot rubber bullets at kids if people don't like them coming into their 'hood and harassing people.
Yeah, she broke a couple of windows, but she was an eighty year old woman. Take the cane hit and just get it out of her hand. That's excessive force ten times out of ten.
The only way to clean up the violence is by stomping on civil rightsKrystallnacht for suspected gang members and sympathizers? Maybe some martial law, too? Sieg Heil!
Completely absurd statement.
This is what Chicago needs.
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And then what happens? Nothing and we keep waiting, the same thing that happens now.
No, that's not what's happening now...
With every new nut-case that goes wild in the streets with a gun, there are one or two more knee-jerk reactive bills proposed, which usually get enough support behind them to then be passed onto congress to be voted upon. Most of these fortunately either do not get this far, or just do not get enough votes, but a few manage to slip through the cracks and become law...
So, in our theoretical example, this same thing would happen...
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The only way to clean up the violence is by stomping on civil rightsKrystallnacht for suspected gang members and sympathizers? Maybe some martial law, too? Sieg Heil!Completely absurd statement.
This is what Chicago needs.
No, what they need is to get rid of the Chicago Machine that's run the city since forever, use some of that excessive Illinois taxation to improve schools and set up effective job training programs.
But that wouldn't satisfy your need to see black kids beat down and shot by cops, so I guess that doesn't work for you.
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I'll go a little further than that, from the example of Holmes (yeah, I said his name). There's currently no mechanism to track the total amount of ammunition so far as I know, but when someone buys a 100 round magazine and 3000-6000 (reports vary) rounds of ammunition, that person should go on a "Hmm, that's interesting" list.So when you have a bar tab, your name should go on a list as a possible drunk driver? Because you're probably about 1000 times more likely to drunk drive if you have a bar tab than spree murder if you buy bulk ammo.
Should your name go in a possible speeder registry if you buy a sports car?
Guns are made for shooting and killing. Cars are made for driving.
Apples and oranges. No democratic law system has its citizens under general suspicion for driving or for drinking - of for owning guns, as the case may be. But if somebody buys guns and lots of ammo in short order, it might raise the question what the buyer might be up to, and it might be worth checking.
Some people make you wonder how we ever evolved enough to remember to breathe.The only way to clean up the violence is by stomping on civil rightsKrystallnacht for suspected gang members and sympathizers? Maybe some martial law, too? Sieg Heil!
Makes me wonder about the integrity of some people taking a snap shot of a sentence for their twisting and spinning.
No, that's not what's happening now...
With every new nut-case that goes wild in the streets with a gun, there are one or two more knee-jerk reactive bills proposed, which usually get enough support behind them to then be passed onto congress to be voted upon. Most of these fortunately either do not get this far, or just do not get enough votes, but a few manage to slip through the cracks and become law...
So, in our theoretical example, this same thing would happen...
The knee isn't jerking nearly hard enough to do anything now. What makes you think it would jerk any harder after something had been done and everyone was saying problem solved and slapping themselves on the back?
You've also got the supreme court to contend with if the legislation gets burdensome enough to become an outright ban.
To the gun affectionatos,
How long would it take to go through a thousand rounds of ammo at the range with an Ar 15? A Day, a weekend?
The only way to clean up the violence is by stomping on civil rightsKrystallnacht for suspected gang members and sympathizers? Maybe some martial law, too? Sieg Heil!Completely absurd statement.
This is what Chicago needs.
No, what they need is to get rid of the Chicago Machine that's run the city since forever, use some of that excessive Illinois taxation to improve schools and set up effective job training programs.
But that wouldn't satisfy your need to see black kids beat down and shot by cops, so I guess that doesn't work for you.
Personal insults and bringing up race are your trademarks. I do not advocate anything you just said and take offense to it.
Nice way to shift personal responsibility away from the parents & a corrupt gangster culture and lay it at the feet of government not doing enough.
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But if somebody buys guns and lots of ammo in short order, it might raise the question what the buyer might be up to, and it might be worth checking.
A typical 2 or 3 day training class will have you go through 1000 rounds per day...
A typical target completion match will have you going through about a 1000 rounds over the course of the entire match...
You have to provide your own ammunition...
Now, many target competitors do this professionally, competing yearly for thousands of dollars in prize money...
This means that they have to practice, practice, practice!
That means, whenever they see a sale on the ammo they need, they buy it, in bulk...
These people also buy a lot of guns...
But yeah, every time people like this buy guns and ammo in quantity is a great way to allocate our tax money by making sure they aren't up to anything nefarious...
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Round and round we go. It isn't apples and oranges because guns, like cars, have legitimate uses. When used for their intended purpose, guns can be used for plenty of other things besides spree murders.
Most people who buy bulk ammo do so because they go to the range a lot. If you wouldn't want your government to assume that you were going to drive drunk because you racked up a tall bar tab, then maybe you can understand why people would not want invasive surveillance just because they bought bulk ammo.
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Makes me wonder about the integrity of some people taking a snap shot of a sentence for their twisting and spinning.
No, it's called having interacted with you for a while. We're familiar with your post history. We know where you're coming from.
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How long would it take to go through a thousand rounds of ammo at the range with an Ar 15? A Day, a weekend?
That depends on how casual you make your trip to the range...
Are you going to just plink and have fun? Are you going to practice and become a better shooter by taking your time and making every shot count? A little of both perhaps? Or are you one to just set the gun at your hip and let'r rip??
One can spend a good 4 - 6 hours at the range with 1000 rounds. And one could also make that same 1000 round stretch for a weekend of shooting...
Round and round we go. It isn't apples and oranges because guns, like cars, have legitimate uses. When used for their intended purpose, guns can be used for plenty of other things besides spree murders.
Right, but the legitimate uses for a car are ubiquitous: our entire society is built around them, they're probably safer than the alternatives (horses are freaking dangerous), and society would pretty much collapse without them: thats the reason we put up with them.
Its not that the argument does/does not apply to guns, it how MUCH does it apply and i believe the difference is several orders of magnitude. I want to blow stuff up at a range or defend myself with this particular kind of gun is really a frivolous reasoun to keep that particular kind of gun around.
How long would it take to go through a thousand rounds of ammo at the range with an Ar 15? A Day, a weekend?That depends on how casual you make your trip to the range...
Are you going to just plink and have fun? Are you going to practice and become a better shooter by taking your time and making every shot count? A little of both perhaps? Or are you one to just set the gun at your hip and let'r rip??
One can spend a good 4 - 6 hours at the range with 1000 rounds. And one could also make that same 1000 round stretch for a weekend of shooting...
Ok, so no on red flagging what's really a fairly ubiquitous purchase.
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The only way to clean up the violence is by stomping on civil rightsKrystallnacht for suspected gang members and sympathizers? Maybe some martial law, too? Sieg Heil!Completely absurd statement.
This is what Chicago needs.
No, what they need is to get rid of the Chicago Machine that's run the city since forever, use some of that excessive Illinois taxation to improve schools and set up effective job training programs.
But that wouldn't satisfy your need to see black kids beat down and shot by cops, so I guess that doesn't work for you.
The racism is getting out of hand, knock off the rhetoric and accusations. Criminal is the only part i care about regardless of color. less being trash=less getting the cops on them
Nice way to shift personal responsibility away from the parents & a corrupt gangster culture and lay it at the feet of government not doing enough.On the other hand, children of Mexican immigrants have generally been unsuccessful. Disconnected from their native lands, immersed in a degenerate gangster culture prevalent in ghettos and barrios, with a sense of entitlement derived from being born in the United States, young Hispanics are massively dropping out of high school. Lack of ambition, work ethic and education prevents them from economically advancing in this complex society. They often have difficulty achieving the same level of success as their illiterate parents, and in many cases become career criminals.** spoiler omitted **
Aretas, your ideas about how to deal with "gangsters", "thugs and gang bangers", "Arab[s] or any other kind of ethnic that conspires to topple the US", and people who apparently act like they're from "3rd world cess pools" are straight up fascist, and every other post of yours is full of racist whistlewords. Your ideas are not welcome in an open, democratic society other than as a cautionary warning.
I suppose if many can interpret the Bible a book of hate then I'm sure its pretty easy to interpret my posts to fit any motive you have to smear me as a racist.
I suggest you get back on topic and stop trying to find hidding meaning or racist motives in what I say. Everything I said is open and on the table in an attempt for honest dialogue.
This is what Chicago needs.
Anti Gang taskforce.
I want to take your point seriously... but, come on, real life is not an '80s action movie (even if it was a cool movie directed by Brian DePalma, featuring one of my favorite DeNero performances ever, and which spawned an awesome spoof scene in "The Naked Gun 33 1/3"). In real life, we don't have the advantages of a plot-driven narrative, and willful suspension of disbelief is an impediment, rather than an advantage.
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The racism is getting out of hand, knock off the rhetoric and accusations. Criminal is the only part i care about regardless of color. less being trash=less getting the cops on them
Pointing out the blatant racism in others IS NOT RACISM.
FFS people.Less "being trash", however subjective that term may be, doesn't get less cops beating on you...if you're black. Sorry you dislike the truth so much. I mean, it's great that you're so colorblind and enlightened and stuff, but the system, and the police, are not.
I want to take you seriously... but, come on, real life is not an '80s action movie (even if it was a cool movie directed by Brian DePalma, featuring one of my favorite DeNero performances ever). In real life, we don't have the advantages of a plot-driven narrative, and willful suspension of disbelief is an impediment, rather than an advantage.This is what Chicago needs.
Anti Gang taskforce.
The example was meant to show the kind of moxy or balls it will take to really destroy the gangs in Chicago.