How do I run this for a large party?

[JohnF]

The good news (for me) is that I've got enough players interested in joining a regular game of RotRL that I'll be running this on alternate weeks at my FLGS. The bad news is that I've got too much interest - I've got eight players who want to take part (and I'd expect at least six to turn up even on a slow week).

This is going to make things quite challenging (for me, at any rate). I plan on limiting the characters to a 15-point buy (which will be a change from the current Jade Regent campaign), strongly discouraging anything that would increase the actions/turn (animal companions, summoners, etc.), and running the adventure on the medium advancement path to keep the APL one to two levels behind what is suggested in the AP (I'm running from the new hardback, not the old 3.5 version). I'll be throwing in the odd sidequest if the group XP level slips too far behind the curve, and I'll also be increasing the CR of just about every encounter, where possible, to further compensate for the change in action economy (more mooks, Advanced template, max HP, &c.). Naturally, that will get a bit harder with BBEG encounters, which is why I want to keep the party a level or so lower.

I've already discovered Wayfinder #7, and I'm currently reading through this forum for other ideas, sidequests, etc. I've found Aldern's Boar Hunt - is there anything else you'd suggest?

[Haladir]

Eight characters will pose a bunch of problems. I'm running a 6-character party, and it's tough enough to scale up from that!

1) Definitely do a 15-point buy.

2) Ban the Leadership feat. You really don't want extra NPCs in the party.

3) Ban the Summoner. Ditto eidolons. (Actually, banning the Summoner is not a bad idea in general. I HATE that class.)

4) For PCs that have the option of an animal companion or some other ability-- require the PCs to take the other option.

5) Contrive reasons not to have plot-related NPCs in the party (e.g. Shalelu, the rescued Black Arrows, etc.)

6) Maximize the hit points of all of the "boss" baddies. Maybe bump them up 2 levels as well.

7) Mooks, mooks, mooks. Greatly increase the number of opposing mooks to run interference for the Boss Baddies.

A very big downside to running an 8-character party, especially when you increase the number of enemy combatants on the field, is that combat is going to take FOREVER. You'll need to impose some house rules to speed things up: especially regarding PCs that hem-and-haw over their actions. One suggestion is to use a 60-second egg timer: PCs that don't declare their action within that time are taking the Full Defense maneuver. Also-- don't allow action take-backs or for players to say after the fact, "Oh, wait, I forgot my Favored Enemy bonus-- that hit did +4 damage!" You forgot to say it, tough!

[Naedre]

I am currently in this campaign with 9(!!!) players. We just finished the first module. Fortunately, we rarely had more than 7 show up for a game, which made for a very strange circulation of "Oh, the PC druid just remembered he had something to do back in Sandpoint and headed back to town. He ran into the PC monk on the way out, and told him where you guys are" every week.

One of the biggest issues I noticed was with more people was the smaller hallways and rooms got cramped very quickly. For example, the Glassworks, which is supposed big and impressive, felt tiny and overcrowded. That many players greatly limits the manuverability of everyone, PCs and monsters.

I would recommend moving some fights into larger rooms (or customizing the map slightly so it is larger).

Also, when you add mooks, maybe they hear the battle and run in behind the party. Yes, this is a tactical disadvantage to the party, and you can make the mooks weaker to compensate, but this is really the only way you are going to make any caster or archer feel threatened, because
they know they have a wall of meatshields between them and the enemies most of the time. Don't try to kill the ranged players, just encourage them to invest in atleast some defensive abilities.

[JohnF]

Naedre wrote:

One of the biggest issues I noticed was with more people was the smaller hallways and rooms got cramped very quickly. For example, the Glassworks, which is supposed big and impressive, felt tiny and overcrowded. That many players greatly limits the manuverability of everyone, PCs and monsters.

I was struck by that last night when I was skimming through the hardback (I've had the PDF for over a week now, but it's just not as conducive to casual dipping). Enlarging the dimensions slightly sounds like a good solution.

Naedre wrote:

Also, when you add mooks, maybe they hear the battle and run in behind the party. Yes, this is a tactical disadvantage to the party, and you can make the mooks weaker to compensate, but this is really the only way you are going to make any caster or archer feel threatened, because
they know they have a wall of meatshields between them and the enemies most of the time. Don't try to kill the ranged players, just encourage them to invest in at least some defensive abilities.

I'm execting a fairly balanced party build - a couple of front-line troops, a rogue, a cleric, a spellcaster, a ranged fighter, and probably a backup spellcaster and/or healer - it depends on just who ends up playing which character, as the party certainly won't have NPCs to fall back on if a particular player doesn't show up.

Having the extra mooks occasionally show up behind the party is evil - I'll definitely have to do that :-) And I'll be throwing in mooks with ranged weapons, too (not to mention looking for good vantage points).

At least for the early (goblin) encounters it's easy to fix things if I over-compensate, and throw too many opponents at the party. Goblins are easily distracted, so two of them might decide to play 'catch' with the nice exploding stick, or set light to the archers bowstring, or ...

[JohnF]

Haladir wrote:

A very big downside to running an 8-character party, especially when you increase the number of enemy combatants on the field, is that combat is going to take FOREVER. You'll need to impose some house rules to speed things up: especially regarding PCs that hem-and-haw over their actions. One suggestion is to use a 60-second egg timer: PCs that don't declare their action within that time are taking the Full Defense maneuver. Also-- don't allow action take-backs or for players to say after the fact, "Oh, wait, I forgot my Favored Enemy bonus-- that hit did +4 damage!" You forgot to say it, tough!

I think I've got at least a partial handle on that, using techniques I've picked up from 6-player and 7-player tables at PFS events. Of course as GM I'm responsible for several of the participants, so I'm going to make sure that I have all their relevant stats at hand (hit points, AC, typical attack/damage numbers, etc. on the initiative card, and a tactics sheet for any major opponent). With any luck I can persuade most of the players to adopt similar practices, too.

I'm probably the worst offender in our group for forgetting applicable bonuses (Favoured Enemy, Dirty Fighter, etc.), so I'm trying to fix that myself on the weeks when I'm a player; it's hard to ask players to clean up their act if you can't do it yourself.

[redcelt32]

I had a group of 9 players who could easily mow through the goblins and Nualia on the island, so I buffed the NPC leaders up a bit, and assigned the party to capture and redeem Nualia instead of killing her. Not sure whether I got lucky or not, but it all worked amazingly well and was quite tough, but not impossible.

I had a very religious bard of Desna and a cleric of Sarenrae, so I had two angels come down and task them with redeeming Nualia. They had to capture her, put a necklace on her and take her to Windsong Abbey for a redemption ritual. The ritual resulted in the party being thrust into her nightmare riddled mind where they had to nagivate a parody of her life story. If I can find the script I used, I will post it if anyone is interested.

As far as running a large group, there are a bunch of threads here on the forums with great advice about that.

[Old Drake]

How to handle eight players depends on how much time you can invest. The ideas given are decent, but as mentioned they will make for long combats. Even without summoning spells and the like.

Most important, avoid unnecessary combat. So no random encounters. If they are facing a trivial encounter, don't use the combat system to solve it, but tell them that they encounter ten goblins and ask them how they killed them; award XP based on how well they told the story. Nothing if it was boring, full XP if it was a good story; if they tell a compelling story and maybe use up resources (spells, potions, ...) maybe as much as twice appropriate XP.

I'd suggest you leave the mook fights as they are. The size limitations in most places will hinder a large group enough that they'll have problems bringing their numbers to bear. At most I'd add 50% more mooks to somewhat increase the challenge - maybe more, but then I'd combine several fights into one.

Important fights I'd have a good look at and decide to either boost the encounter by adding more critters, or replacing them with thematically fitting creatures of higher CR. For example, instead of stone giants, they might be facing Frost Giants or even Fire Giants.

The real problem will be Boss fights. That's where you'll need to do the most work. As a general rule of thumb I'd add a level; if you have high damage PCs, perhaps 20% extra HP. Don't forget to give them appropriate extra treasure - some one use protection items would be especially useful. For spell users, give them extra AOE spells - browse the SRD and look for new AOE spells you don't commonly use to keep it fresh. Every baddy may use AOE spells, but they use a wide variety of them.
Then add a lieutenant. Someone (or something) that's a CR lower than the original BBEG should do. This might be a friend, a spouse, a pet, a construct, or whatever.
Then add mooks. Nothing harsh, nothing that takes too long to dispatch, but something to soak up attacks and generally hinder player movement, especially if the BBEG has good ranged capabilities.

In general I wouldn't increase the size of places. The limited space will restrict how much the PC and monster can do, and that will speed up combat. This will probably result in more than average use of ranged weapons, so consider your ranged options ahead of time.

[BuzzardB]

Haladir wrote:

Eight characters will pose a bunch of problems. I'm running a 6-character party, and it's tough enough to scale up from that!

1) Definitely do a 15-point buy.

2) Ban the Leadership feat. You really don't want extra NPCs in the party.

3) Ban the Summoner. Ditto eidolons. (Actually, banning the Summoner is not a bad idea in general. I HATE that class.)

4) For PCs that have the option of an animal companion or some other ability-- require the PCs to take the other option.

5) Contrive reasons not to have plot-related NPCs in the party (e.g. Shalelu, the rescued Black Arrows, etc.)

6) Maximize the hit points of all of the "boss" baddies. Maybe bump them up 2 levels as well.

7) Mooks, mooks, mooks. Greatly increase the number of opposing mooks to run interference for the Boss Baddies.

I just ordered the Anniversary edition and will be running it for a party of 6, is this what you implemented for your party of 6? If so how well is it working out?

[Mazra]

redcelt32 wrote:

I had a group of 9 players who could easily mow through the goblins and Nualia on the island, so I buffed the NPC leaders up a bit, and assigned the party to capture and redeem Nualia instead of killing her. Not sure whether I got lucky or not, but it all worked amazingly well and was quite tough, but not impossible.

I had a very religious bard of Desna and a cleric of Sarenrae, so I had two angels come down and task them with redeeming Nualia. They had to capture her, put a necklace on her and take her to Windsong Abbey for a redemption ritual. The ritual resulted in the party being thrust into her nightmare riddled mind where they had to nagivate a parody of her life story. If I can find the script I used, I will post it if anyone is interested.

As far as running a large group, there are a bunch of threads here on the forums with great advice about that.

Super idea! That is a great way to reveal the details of Nualia's story to the party. When I recently ran Burnt Offerings, I felt that I did not convey the story as in depth as I would have liked. So again, this is a great idea to require the capture of Nualia.

Cheers,

Mazra

[xorial]

This reminds me of when I started to run RothRL a couple of years ago. I was expecting just a group of 6. It was a New Year's kickoff. By the time my friends brought friends, without asking me about it, I had a party of 13. Needless to say I wasn't into running it, at all. Never mind the player for the wizard wasn't trying to investigate. He just wanted to run from one battle to another. That campaign never got any further than the one aborted session.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Find another person to GM then take 4 each.

[JohnF]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Find another person to GM then take 4 each.

We may very well be doing this - there's a chance there's another GM who could join us. Of course we've also got three other players expressing interest, so we'll probably still end up with more than four to a table.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

6 is manageable. 8 is a nightmare.

[Greycloak of Bowness]

I have to agree. I have 7 PCs (because I often have a couple missing) and the blessedly few nights we have 7 are awful and the nights we have 4 are bliss. The fights are quicker and more cinematic with 4 and I don't have to do any adjusting on the fly.

[blaznee]

In a word.. Don't :).. Even making adjustments to room sizes, and even bringing extra mooks will do nothing to help the entertainment factor.

The campaign can handle 3-5 characters.. Depending on classes picked the small party will probably want a small boost, while 5 character parties should consider 15 point buys.

Try to split up your group and run it twice.. Once for the action happy fiends that want combat and stuff.. And one for the people who likes investigating and roleplay in the other group..

[GRU]

Haladir wrote:

Eight characters will pose a bunch of problems. I'm running a 6-character party, and it's tough enough to scale up from that!

1) Definitely do a 15-point buy.

2) Ban the Leadership feat. You really don't want extra NPCs in the party.

3) Ban the Summoner. Ditto eidolons. (Actually, banning the Summoner is not a bad idea in general. I HATE that class.)

4) For PCs that have the option of an animal companion or some other ability-- require the PCs to take the other option.

5) Contrive reasons not to have plot-related NPCs in the party (e.g. Shalelu, the rescued Black Arrows, etc.)

6) Maximize the hit points of all of the "boss" baddies. Maybe bump them up 2 levels as well.

7) Mooks, mooks, mooks. Greatly increase the number of opposing mooks to run interference for the Boss Baddies.

A very big downside to running an 8-character party, especially when you increase the number of enemy combatants on the field, is that combat is going to take FOREVER. You'll need to impose some house rules to speed things up: especially regarding PCs that hem-and-haw over their actions. One suggestion is to use a 60-second egg timer: PCs that don't declare their action within that time are taking the Full Defense maneuver. Also-- don't allow action take-backs or for players to say after the fact, "Oh, wait, I forgot my Favored Enemy bonus-- that hit did +4 damage!" You forgot to say it, tough!

I've been running it for six players - and I can recomend that listen to Haladir! And make everybody roll attack and damage in one roll.
GRU

[Keshori Sadhil Saatatya]

We have 10 players. For the love of God, don't do what our GM did for the Skulls and Shackles campaign. He looked on the forums and it was suggested for him to just double everything and give it the advanced template. We died so often, and we were a party of min-maxers. It was awful.

My boyfriend is running the RotR campaign and is taking my advice from running a 12 person Jade Regent:

First of all, do act XP. Giant time-saver, and we house rule that if you miss a session when we level, you have to be present for three consecutive sessions until you level to party level.

Do a 2-part session: RP phase and fighting phase, therefore everyone has a time to shine and can glaze over stuff their character sucks at.

I tended to blend encounters by drawing a big square the size of the map with terrain features and ran it kind of like Mad Moxxie's Thunderdome from Borderlands. A room with four goblins can safely be blended with a room of three oni. Just take note of how well the party does, and roll behind a screen if necessary to avoid TPK until you find out what works for your party.

Add in WAVES of enemies. When I ran Jade Regent, that's what I did and the waves were pretty effective. Oh, the encounter is a stone giant? When the party finishes killing him, they have two rounds to heal everyone and position themselves before seven Hobbs are going to come in.

For things like the haunted house in book 2, do a RP walkthrough of everything (screw the map for this) and let them find treasure that way after the Thunderdome challenge, and in each room that there was a fight, narrate it the way it went in the fight.

I say let them keep the animal companions, but at a diminished level, maybe -1 or -2 level and ban the truly terrifying ones.

Definitely rule out summoners, they have too many weird rules to deal with.

Only allow inquisitors for advanced players, they have a lot of stuff to deal with every turn, like their judgements and such.

Make sure that any casters have printed out spell cards, or at the very least their OWN book, and any spell they cast needs to have either a book or printout.

Ban Herolab. We used to have 4 people in our group use it. It's unwieldy to look things up, half the things in there are wrong if you don't input it JUST SO, and they'll get distracted by tablets and labtops, their turns will take forever.

If they whine, make them print out their character sheet but leave the tech in their bags until the RP phase.

Everyone had a ton of fun and it was still very organized.