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What would make the ultimate assassin?
There is, of course, the Assassin PrC, but I'm curious to see if anyone has any build ideas from yesteryear or is inspired by. Any class/race. I also find that the "ninja" rogue variant is better than the rogue in every seeming possible way.
There are certainly also many kinds of assassin and definitions of such. What would you draw your inspiration from? 47? Etzio? Chigurh? Leon? I want to know where your mind goes! :D
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What would make the ultimate assassin?
the Tarrasque.
Personally, I settle for nothing less.
Either that or Graz'zt, but he can be such a PITA about things sometimes. I don't even know why I put up with him.
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With a system using hp's, then the ultimate Assassin is any thing about 10 to 15 levels higher than the thing you want to assassinate. Perhaps if the DM was willing to use the assassination table from 1e AD&D you would actually end up with an assassin class. Other than that all you get is another class that has to whittle away the opponents hp's with staby-stab type actions.
Assassins died with 2e D&D's arrival.
I'm thinking more builds and character classes. I mean, the Assassin's death attack has always been nice:
Death Attack (Ex)
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.
I always used to dip with a lv of Shadow Dancer back in 3.0 (Can't remember if it was changed in 3.5) for Hide in Plain Sight, but now they get it at 8th.
I'm thinking more builds and character classes. I mean, the Assassin's death attack has always been nice.
Well, ok, my serious answer is - it's somewhat hard to make such a build. On purpose. Because the devs don't want it to be too easy to make a build that can one-shot anything of comparable strength.
That said, a lot of high-damage builds will. Or at least can if the conditions are right, and no self-respecting assassin would lack the skill and creativity to plan a way to make the conditions right for their attack, before they attack (but this later part is less about "build" and more about character/player skill).
The most obvious thing that comes to mind though is: any caster-class with save-or-die spells where the build takes whatever feats, spells, and other combos they need in order to disguise/hide their spellcasting (and themselves). Disintegrate can be great for this because it leaves no body (evidence) behind. One moment the assassination target is there and the next. . .well, he isn't.
Improved/Greater Invisibility can be good with this - so long as the target and his bodyguards can't detect or otherwise thwart invisibility. Such a spell along with stealth is even better.
in some 3.5E builds, and I know some 4E builds, it's possible for martial/melee/ranged weapon attackers to not just "Hide in Plain Sight" but remain so hidden while attacking, with just the right stuff. Then with just enough high damage attacks (appropriate to the target[s]), or their own save or die powers with sufficiently OP DCs, they can win-button things. I haven't seen - yet - any PF build that can accomplish quite this, at least without the aforementioned Greater Invisibility.
1) as a player considering such a build ("save-or-die"/lose-based build concept), I find it too unreliable (DCs generally make it a mixed bag, unless you really totally devote yourself to it), plus. . .underwhelming.
2) as a player who might play alongside someone playing such a build, I also find it underwhelming, for a lot of the reasons Treatmonk mentions.
3) as a DM, such a build sort of backs me into a corner - I mean, if faced with a PC who devotes themselves mainly to "save or die" type mechanics, either a lot of encounters will go *poof* in, IMO, an unsatisfying manner (not just for myself, but I feel for others, too), or I'll end up building encounters just to specifically thwart this. (Which is often not too hard because certain types of monsters have immunities and/or resistances or very high saves vs. this sort of thing), which I think is. . .a bit unfair to the player, too. (IMO it's better/fairer to the player in question just to disallow something all together, rather than let them devote a lot of character resources to something, and then thwart that at every opportunity. But this also means a level of trust and mutual accommodation between player, DM, and rest of the party, not to overdo any one thing).
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When I think of building a character built around the concept of assassination, I mainly think of the Night Angel Trilogy, or the Spy from Team Fortress 2.
When it comes to actual building it, Ninja and getting the advanced talent Assassination (you only have to watch for 1 round, DC is 10+1/2lvl+cha, but you can only kill not paralyze). Other talents that seemed like it would synergize really well were Sudden Disguise, Vanishing Trick (the one all ninja take anyway =p), as well as the rogue talents Deft Palm (conceal a weapon you're holding in plain sight with sleight of hand), and Underhanded (plus 4 to sleight of hand, plus if you sneak attack with a concealed weapon in the surprise round, you don't roll sneak attack, you just do max, and you do this a number of times per day equal to cha mod). The talents that give spell like abilities also seemed like they could work well.
Red Mantis Assassin - Pathfinder Prestige class.
At second level you get Prayer Attack. The most broken ability in the game imo. If you fail your will save to be fascinated your dead. End of story. You wont make that fort save after(No matter what level you are).
It is far from broken because the class forces you to be MAD, meaning the DC is low enough that it does not take affect most of the time anyway. You also have to keep them fascinated for 3 rounds. Any round in which a threat other than the RMA appears the subject gets a new saving throw. Yeah if a Mantis can catch you alone, and you roll low enough to fail low enough to fail the you might be in trouble, but PC's or NPC's being in a one on one situation is hard to make happen. The RMA also can't do anything else except to concentrate on the victim.
Going back to the mad thing you need at least a decent dex to get the most out of TWF. You want a decent strength for damage. A decent con is also nice, and then you have to pump charisma to make sure the save is failed. Even if you go ranger which can ignore the dex requirement for its bonus feats focusing on dex enough to make the bad guy fail the save is unlikely. Well maybe at low levels, and if you focus on the prayer attack to the exclusion of almost everything else, but the prayer attack is not really good enough to make it that focus at the exclusion of everything else.
Honestly, my opinion of the Assassin is that it is an NPC class primarily. Not that it cannot be used to good effect by a PC but mainly any combat ability that you can only use once every few rounds is rather difficult to for a PC to make use of.
Assassin: Hey guys? Hang back a half minute or so. Im going to study this guy and kill him.
Fighter: Yeah right...let me at him!
Assassin: Damn! When am I going to get to use this ability?!
- Gauss
The Assassin PrC is certainly not what you could consider as the ultimate assassin. 4 levels of rogue (or 2 of barbarian) make you immune to death attack.
Red Mantis Assassin is certainly better in that way.
But to be honest, in a word with so much magic, the ultimate assassin is certainly a wizard => you have divination spells to spy on your target, illusion spells to hide your identity, and SoD spells to kill your target in an instant (with debuff spells to increase your chance of success) + lots of spells to have other do the job (summon, magic jar, dominate).
Honestly, my opinion of the Assassin is that it is an NPC class primarily. Not that it cannot be used to good effect by a PC but mainly any combat ability that you can only use once every few rounds is rather difficult to for a PC to make use of.
Assassin: Hey guys? Hang back a half minute or so. Im going to study this guy and kill him.
Fighter: Yeah right...let me at him!
Assassin: Damn! When am I going to get to use this ability?!
- Gauss
I agree. It looks cool on paper, but does not work well in the game if you are a PC.
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Going for the cheese i'd look at Nagaji Oracle of Lore 1 (sidestep secret)Ranger(guide) 2 (twf) Ninja 2 then Red Mantis assassin.
20pts
Str 18 (10 & +2)
Dex 7 (-4)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (2 & -2)
Wis 10
Cha 17 (7 & +2)
Lvl1 Oracle and Alertness Feat (Ac 19 scale+cha+nat +4 to hit and dmg from str
Lvl2 Ranger
Lvl3 Ranger Exotic Weapon & TWF
Lvl4 Ninja +1 Cha
Lvl5 Ninja Lots of good trick but for now i'll go Weapon Training so i can also pick up Power Attack
Lvl6 RMA
Lvl7 RMA without buffs or magic items Prayer Attack is DC 18 will
As to the new threat thing the way it seems to work as long as you started in round 2 all the other threats are already there.
RAW it does not say "new" threats. That might be the intent though.
True it says "each time a threat appears." That can be read many ways still against many targets a dc 18 (at that level a +4 cha is not out of the question so dc 20) is not a bad one.
Edt: i actually missed the fact i originally typed "each time a treat appears." :D
Red Mantis Assassin is one of my favorite new PrC! They're pretty slick and have a lot going for them. I definitely made a Ninja/RMA in an urban campaign. Didn't want to play a literal assassin, so I said he formally part of the brotherhood of assassins or what have you and then opened up his own detective agency. Essentially, he was a private eye who used a kama-and-chain. Pretty fun.
RAW it does not say "new" threats. That might be the intent though.
Couldn't you simply tell your party "Hey if you see me start to twirl my swords around in someones direction and they just stand there and drool... Leave him be and go kill someone else."
If the rest of the party is consentrating on other enemies and ignoring the fasinated target I dont see how that is a "Threat". They are ignoring you.
And as was pointed out. Even being MAD, its not hard to get that Will save DC pretty high. +2 from the swords, ability focus(if allowed), and magic items that boost cha... heck just UMD a wand of Fox's Cunning before you start.
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Lots of good stuff here about how the PrC is pretty bad. My two bits would suggest a Ninja/Fighter (Weapon Master) 4 or straight ninja. High stats in Str, Cha, and Con. 2-Hand a katana and get the 10th level ninja assassination ability.
If you're in a home game, you could ask the GM to allow the assassin Archetype I made here:
Any character that can make liberal use of dastardly finish (by making their foe stunned or cowered) has free access to coup de grace in the middle of combat. I've always felt that that was a good base to build an assassin on.
A monk (yeah, yeah, I know) with crane style and riposte can stunning fist-interrupt an enemies attack and then when their turn comes around, coup de grace them, for example.
prototype00
I will say this though. A normal "Assassin" or even a Sneak Attack character can be an effective contract killer.
Most "Jobs" are not going to be high level adventures or even high level evil npcs. 99% are going to be Merchants, Nobles, or rival NPCs. These types rarely get past 5th level. A 10th level character should easily be able to take most contracts and fufill them with little issue.
The last time I played an "Assassin", I was a... 3swashbuckler/2monk/5Invisible Blade/10 Ninja of the Cresent Moon (3.5)
My Sneak attack alone was enough to drop pretty much anyone I took a contract on. The hard part wasn't killing them. It was getting to them un-noticed and un-detected. The GM also added extra difficulty by having several high paying contracts that had to have certain criteria met (look like a accident, at a certain place, public to prove a point, ect)
Not having a Death Attack didnt hinder me in the least. Staying in the shadows and unknown was the hard part. I used a Mask of Lies and had max Disguise with a masterwork disguise kit. I looked different for every job and only left a calling card to spread my fame. My objective wasn't really to make money. I wanted to become the most feared killer in the DM's world.
A monk (yeah, yeah, I know) with crane style and riposte can stunning fist-interrupt an enemies attack and then when their turn comes around, coup de grace them, for example.
prototype00
you forget
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6.
Ah yes, I neglected to mention 9 levels of ninja as well.
prototype00
ninja horizon walker specialized in urban terrain to ridiculous hights.
What would make the ultimate assassin?
Kitsune ninjas are frightening because of their shape-shifting abilities. Get the Realistic Likeness feat at 1st level, and you can impersonate anyone you want. Since it isn't an illusion no one gets will saves to see through it; they have to beat your disguise checks (which have a +10 bonus). The only real limitation is that I don't think the ability can change the appearance of clothes, so the kitsune would need to take quick disguise abilities.
By 10th level you can impersonate someone's loved one, and then have nice conversation with him while you study him for an Assassin Strike. Then shapeshift to impersonate the person you just killed and walk out like nothing happened.
The only thing really keeps this from happening very often in game is that the vast majority of Kitsunes wouldn't be interested in doing such things despite the fact that their abilities make them ideal assassins.
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I think a witch would be a terrifyingly powerful Assassin. With greater Invis, I evil I you, misfortune you and then save or die you. Has the added benefit of having your enemies die while listing to bodiless laughter.
With a starting int of 18, spell focus and greater, plus a headband of intellect I could easily see having ac death AC of 23+ by time the Greater Invisibility was available (about the time most people can get a death attack) Other than that I have to go with Archer Ranger. By level 10 I can can have anyone as my favored enemy for +6 (instant enemy spell), with that I can shoot 4 attacks at +18(2)/18/13 for 1d8+15 without magic. With preplanning I will get some arrows of bane and then its over. And no save.
I really want to use the Red Mantis PrC, but it seems like it would be a headache to make work. I will see what I can do in the next day or so, and post a build here if I think it is decent.
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ninja horizon walker specialized in urban terrain to ridiculous hights.
I know how this concept works but can you explain to me how a ninja/rogue spamming favored terrains gets access to the instant enemy spell aside from wands or scrolls? In order for the build to work the PC must have that spell or he will only be uber effective while in one or two terrains.
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Can you say more about that assasination table? it sounds very interesting.With a system using hp's, then the ultimate Assassin is any thing about 10 to 15 levels higher than the thing you want to assassinate. Perhaps if the DM was willing to use the assassination table from 1e AD&D you would actually end up with an assassin class. Other than that all you get is another class that has to whittle away the opponents hp's with staby-stab type actions.
Assassins died with 2e D&D's arrival.
It was a % chance of killing someone (thing - limitation on this) outright. For example a 1st level Assassin had a 50% of killing another 1st level PC/NPC/monster outright on a 'sneak' attack. I don't have my books here at the moment but I can post more examples if you like. The % drops off quickly for things higher level than the assassin.
S.
a vivisectionist alchemist can be good too. With your formulas, you can get improved invisibility, (plus various other very important utility effects) you have 1d6 sneak attack/ 2 levels. With your mutagens you can easily boost your strength or dexterity to high enough levels to be very damaging as well.
Sure, you probably won't be one-hitting anything, but with a single round, you could drop plenty of things. If you want to be crazy about it, you can easily pick up the extra limb discovery, and add even more sneak attack damage. (I don't like the aesthetics of an extra limb, but it is also quite a giveaway: "yeah, the assassin was some dude with a third arm. Oh, just like that suspicious looking guy over there!")
The Alchemist could also be an interesting ranged assassin via Explosive Missile discovery and bombs. Combine with Grenadier archetype for more ranged fun when your bombs run out. However, i don't think it is possible to get as high damage per round as an invisible vivisectionist. Then again, you wouldn't have to worry about triggering Sneak Attack.
ninja horizon walker specialized in urban terrain to ridiculous hights.I know how this concept works but can you explain to me how a ninja/rogue spamming favored terrains gets access to the instant enemy spell aside from wands or scrolls? In order for the build to work the PC must have that spell or he will only be uber effective while in one or two terrains.
Im not sure if this works.
"At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy."It says that it treats the Favored Terrain as Favored Enemy... but it isn't Favored Enemy. So, by RAW, I'm not sure it works, but i have seen it posted around before.
If it does work, the best way would be Rogue/Ranger, going into Horizon Walker. That way, you can use the wand without UMD, since it would be on your spell list.
If we're talking about a classic stalker-type, I'd go for a Bladebound Kensei Magus. For this to work he should be at least level 7 and using a Falcata.
With Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, Arcane Strike and a strength of 20 will make a coup de grace against his - probably - sleeping target of something like: 100+4d8 (+8d6 with scorching ray).
That should be enough to take out just about any sleeping target.
In a "fair" fight he would be able to crit on a 17-20 and deal 96+4d8+8d6, which I still think is pretty fair for a mere 3 points from the spell pool :)
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It says that it treats the Favored Terrain as Favored Enemy... but it isn't Favored Enemy. So, by RAW, I'm not sure it works, but i have seen it posted around before.
You use instant enemy to treat the opponent in all instances as the creature you select. So you select creatures native to your favored terrain and voila.
Yeah a 1-3 level dip in Ranger looks like your best bet but still those wands can get expensive.
I always thought Druid in 3.5 would make the best assassins. Shapeshift means you can get pretty much anywhere you need to go. And Druid has some of the absolutly most deadly spells. Drown was a perfect example. No save. And if examined it looks like he just drowned. Throw him in his tub and you have a natural death.
Not sure if the PF Druid is nearly as effective however.
I would think a diviner wizard would work well...
Dang, ninja'd twice over on this.
The diviner knows where you live, he knows when you're sleeping, and he's just called up some friends from the Deep South to pay you a dreamtime visit...
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When the table was used and when Hps was used?Can you say more about that assasination table? it sounds very interesting.With a system using hp's, then the ultimate Assassin is any thing about 10 to 15 levels higher than the thing you want to assassinate. Perhaps if the DM was willing to use the assassination table from 1e AD&D you would actually end up with an assassin class. Other than that all you get is another class that has to whittle away the opponents hp's with staby-stab type actions.
Assassins died with 2e D&D's arrival.
It was a % chance of killing someone (thing - limitation on this) outright. For example a 1st level Assassin had a 50% of killing another 1st level PC/NPC/monster outright on a 'sneak' attack. I don't have my books here at the moment but I can post more examples if you like. The % drops off quickly for things higher level than the assassin.
S.
This was a case where hp didn't matter. Set-up the assassination attempt and if the DM deemed it was true 'surprise' then roll. If successful the target was dead no matter how many hp's they had. If you failed you still got a backstab attack (usually). Only the Assassin class has this ability. Assassins topped out at 13th level.
S.
What would make the ultimate assassin?
Motivation