Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The skill DCs are meant to be limited to specific skills. Sometimes there are other ways to accomplish the tasks, and there is no reason those other means can't be employed. Spells and class abilities can often substitute for a skill, dimension door is one example, but you might use charm person in place of Diplomacy (assuming the task is complete within the duration and doesn't require ongoing influence). Or maybe you can use speak with dead to learn the contents of a dead courier's message instead of finding the letter concealed in his false tooth with a Heal check. Letting people turn a few skills into solves-all tools trivializes the challenge the faction missions are intended to represent and should be avoided.
Fully half of players are supposed to fail at these missions. If they seem hard, it's because they are intended to be hard, and a GM shouldn't hand-wave that.
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I think the key difference here is using a spell/ability/feat/trait that is a reasonable facsimile of the written requirement.
First though, wanted to point out that Faction Missions are NOT encounters. They can be involved in or part of encounters, and solving an encounter can solve the faction mission. But in and of themselves, they are not encounters.
To solve an encounter, creative uses of differing abilities is perfectly fine. If a player can figure out a way how to make Knowledge (Nobility) work while diving underwater (and they aren’t being ridiculous or silly about stretching the bounds of the skill) then fine. They can find a new way to solve that obstacle. And if doing so means they lose out on loot, then I will find a way to put that loot back into the scenario somewhere. This is what the part on awarding creativity is for.
I don’t believe part in the guide regarding rewarding creativity is meant to deal with faction missions, at all.
That being said:
There are ways around having to make the assigned roll. But arbitrarily allowing another skill because the character is not versatile enough is not acceptable.
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Ghannet Manner Gauntlet** spoiler omitted **
My Lantern Lodge player came up with a fairly good solution too.
Spoiler:In order to ID the statues successfully he offered to trade his pants to the Tian scholar (who's naked except a kimono) in return for having the statues looked at. Scholar (I guestimated his skill level) IDed them no problem.
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First though, wanted to point out that Faction Missions are NOT encounters. They can be involved in or part of encounters, and solving an encounter can solve the faction mission. But in and of themselves, they are not encounters.
Encounters The heart of any adventure is its encounters. An encounter is any event that puts a specific problem before the PCs that they must solve. Most encounters present combat with monsters or hostile NPCs, but there are many other types—a trapped corridor, a political interaction with a suspicious king, a dangerous passage over a rickety rope bridge, an awkward argument with a friendly NPC who suspects a PC has betrayed him, or anything that adds drama to the game. Brain-teasing puzzles, roleplaying challenges, and skill checks are all classic methods for resolving encounters, but the most complex encounters to build are the most common ones—combat encounters.
That sounds like a good summation of the faction missions.
I agree that you shouldn't allow diplomacy/bluff for everything. we seem to be pretty close on what would and wouldn't work for faction missions.
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First though, wanted to point out that Faction Missions are NOT encounters. They can be involved in or part of encounters, and solving an encounter can solve the faction mission. But in and of themselves, they are not encounters.*****Beside the point example omitted*****
I don’t believe part in the guide regarding rewarding creativity is meant to deal with faction missions, at all.
Solving faction missions take place during encounters, therefore they are part of encounters. Solving any part of an encounter, whether it is solving fighting a monster, or disarming a trap, or dealing with a chase scene, or dealing with a faction mission within that comes up during the encounter are the same, therefore come under reward creative solutions.
There is no logic that is not artifical, for example saying that killing a monster is part of an encounter, and then removing a body part from said creature (common faction mission)is not.
They are happening in the same place and same time, therefore they are part of the same act, thus the same encounter. I don't see how you can pretend otherwise.
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First though, wanted to point out that Faction Missions are NOT encounters. They can be involved in or part of encounters, and solving an encounter can solve the faction mission. But in and of themselves, they are not encounters.Encounters The heart of any adventure is its encounters. An encounter is any event that puts a specific problem before the PCs that they must solve. Most encounters present combat with monsters or hostile NPCs, but there are many other types—a trapped corridor, a political interaction with a suspicious king, a dangerous passage over a rickety rope bridge, an awkward argument with a friendly NPC who suspects a PC has betrayed him, or anything that adds drama to the game. Brain-teasing puzzles, roleplaying challenges, and skill checks are all classic methods for resolving encounters, but the most complex encounters to build are the most common ones—combat encounters.
That sounds like a good summation of the faction missions.
I agree that you shouldn't allow diplomacy/bluff for everything. we seem to be pretty close on what would and wouldn't work for faction missions.
In the context of a home game, any obstacle can be considered an encounter. On that, we agree.
But in the context of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play, an Encounter is delineated as such within the scenarios. Faction missions are not encounters in this context.
Otherwise, solving your faction mission would count toward the 3 minimum encounters to get your XP in a scenario.
The Guide to Organized Play is written in context with how Pathfinder Society is run, and comprehension of paragraphs and rules should be read with that context in mind.
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.
While solving an encounter can help lead to solving a faction mission, faction missions are separate tasks that must be solved while on the main mission. They are not part of the encounter, and solving the faction mission is not integral to solving the mission itself (except the rare occurrence where the same action can alleviate both mission parameters).
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In the context of a home game, any obstacle can be considered an encounter. On that, we agree.
Please stop giving me a backhanded dismissal of 'in a home game' every time you disagree with something. That I disagree with you about what the guide means does not make my position home game or home brew.
You're trying an overly legalistic view to narrow where creative solutions apply, but then start looking for 'context' when it turns out that by even the strictest reading possible a faction mission IS an encounter.
You yourself would allow certain creative solutions to faction missions, but you seem to be arguing that you have no rules basis for doing so, which is just confusing.
But in the context of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play, an Encounter is delineated as such within the scenarios. Faction missions are not encounters in this context.
Where. Show me this definition of encounter you're using, and how the PFS definition is different than the definition in regular pathfinder.
Otherwise, solving your faction mission would count toward the 3 minimum encounters to get your XP in a scenario.
They very well might, especially in an RP heavy scenario or when the PC's are taking the 'talk your way past problems' solution.
The Guide to Organized Play is written in context with how Pathfinder Society is run, and comprehension of paragraphs and rules should be read with that context in mind.
Circular. The guide says society is run this way so that's how its run so that's how the guide says its run.
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But in the context of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play, an Encounter is delineated as such within the scenarios. Faction missions are not encounters in this context.
Otherwise, solving your faction mission would count toward the 3 minimum encounters to get your XP in a scenario.
Encounters that include faction missions count.
Give me any example of a faction mission solution that does not take place, unless a really creative solution is found, within an encounter?
If you can't I don't see that you have any basis for argueing, other than somatics...which is what it seems like you are arguing now.
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why are you getting so antagonistic here BNW? I've stated my opinion. You are certainly allowed to disagree. I think it is quite clear that while certain creative solutions can be used (I’ve even noted a few that applied to me specifically or to a player I’ve GM’d) for faction missions, that the paragraph on Awarding Creativity is not meant to apply to faction missions.
You don’t. But ultimately we still agree that creativity does have a place within faction missions.
Our main disagreement is to what degree.
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But in the context of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play, an Encounter is delineated as such within the scenarios. Faction missions are not encounters in this context.
Otherwise, solving your faction mission would count toward the 3 minimum encounters to get your XP in a scenario.
Encounters that include faction missions count.
Give me any example of a faction mission solution that does not take place, unless a really creative solution is found, within an encounter?
If you can't I don't see that you have any basis for argueing, other than somatics...which is what it seems like you are arguing now.
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why are you getting so antagonistic here BNW?
Partially my generally growly personality, partially having my points dismissed rather than answered, partially the feeling that trying to nail down the rational behind your position is like trying to hit jello, and my inclination is always to hit harder till it splatters.
I've stated my opinion. You are certainly allowed to disagree. I think it is quite clear that while certain creative solutions can be used (I’ve even noted a few that applied to me specifically or to a player I’ve GM’d) for faction missions, that the paragraph on Awarding Creativity is not meant to apply to faction missions.
Why ever not? If you talk your way past guard 322 you get his armor, his sword, his knife, and the princess cut prismatic amethyst rondel spindel gem hidden in his left heel. Why wouldn't you get the hidden message in his pocket?
You don’t. But ultimately we still agree that creativity does have a place within faction missions.
Our main disagreement is to what degree.
The only concrete difference I've spotted so far is bringing something back to town to have it translated. It just seems like you're falling back on the "the rules don't allow it" for what you think shouldn't work but not applying that to things you think should work.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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At my table, the results of your endeavors will be determined according to parameters set forth in the scenario, interpreted within the context of the faction handouts and the scenario as a whole, which are first interpreted within the context of the Guide to Organized Play, which itself is interpreted in the context of the spirit of the campaign, which is continually reinterpreted according to the statements provided by campaign leadership.
I cannot in good conscience remove any piece of that equation.
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I apologize if I am not communicating clearly enough for you. I have a tendency to type as I think (yes I do type that fast), and so it comes out much like it would during a verbal conversation. Sometimes the thoughts are jumbled and half-concocted, but I do try to make my point by the end. Might be why it comes off rambling sometimes. Especially since my train of thought often gets interrupted by having to do, you know, actual work.
That being said. As succinctly as I can put it. I don’t think that creativity should trump challenge. And how that gets interpreted is of course up to the GM, and table variance will happen.
I think it is incorrect to use the chapter on Awarding Creativity in the Guide to neuter the challenge on Faction Missions. They are supposed to be difficult, and if creativity turns into dodging the challenge, then I think the intent is lost. This is of course my opinion though, so please don’t try to change my mind. I’m offering my opinion in the hopes that it is helpful to someone who is coalating all the opinions to form their own.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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At my table:
1) You will be encouraged to be creative and rewarded appropriately.
2) You may not successfully complete your faction mission no matter how creative you're being.
But Kyle, what does 1 prestige matter when I'm spending 16 on a rez already?
*sad face*At my table:
1) what he said
2) also what he said
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At my table, the results of your endeavors will be determined according to parameters set forth in the scenario, interpreted within the context of the faction handouts and the scenario as a whole, which are first interpreted within the context of the Guide to Organized Play, which itself is interpreted in the context of the spirit of the campaign, which is continually reinterpreted according to the statements provided by campaign leadership.
I cannot in good conscience remove any piece of that equation.
That's kinda what I've been trying to say.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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That's kinda what I've been trying to say.At my table, the results of your endeavors will be determined according to parameters set forth in the scenario, interpreted within the context of the faction handouts and the scenario as a whole, which are first interpreted within the context of the Guide to Organized Play, which itself is interpreted in the context of the spirit of the campaign, which is continually reinterpreted according to the statements provided by campaign leadership.
I cannot in good conscience remove any piece of that equation.
I don't think it's what your listeners have been getting.
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I don't think it's what your listeners have been getting.That's kinda what I've been trying to say.At my table, the results of your endeavors will be determined according to parameters set forth in the scenario, interpreted within the context of the faction handouts and the scenario as a whole, which are first interpreted within the context of the Guide to Organized Play, which itself is interpreted in the context of the spirit of the campaign, which is continually reinterpreted according to the statements provided by campaign leadership.
I cannot in good conscience remove any piece of that equation.
You're assuming we actually read what Andy writes. ;-)
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This is whats throwing me for a loop.
I don’t think that creativity should trump challenge.
vs
Using twine and a fishhook to recover an item instead of having to squeeze your body into a small crevasse. Good enough.
The DM required me to make a difficult touch AC attack. My monk was a Monk of the Empty Hand, they get proficiency in improvised weapons and have throw anything.
It wasn't just an easy flick and problem solved. I still had to roll a difficult to hit roll to attach the fish hook to the macguffin.
Challenge was not subverted or mitigated, it was just transmuted into a different challenge using the context of the environment and the character's skill set.
What I'm saying is, changing Knowledge (nobility) to Knowledge (history) is not ok, just because nobody at the table has Knowledge (nobility). That isn't creative, no matter how creative the player tries to be in explaining why Knowledge (history) should fit.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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But Kyle, what does 1 prestige matter when I'm spending 16 on a rez already?Who said raise dead would work? It's hard for the local priests to piece back together a partially digested body..
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The DM required me to make a difficult touch AC attack. My monk was a Monk of the Empty Hand, they get proficiency in improvised weapons and have throw anything.
It wasn't just an easy flick and problem solved. I still had to roll a difficult to hit roll to attach the fish hook to the macguffin.
Right, but you've got weeks down there if you need it. Even if you can't take 20 in a classical sense, you can just keep trying till you get the 20. Even if it was a pain for your character, there doesn't seem to have been any actual challenge for the player or as you put it before, luck of the dice involved: your success was guaranteed the moment you came up with the idea.
What I'm saying is, changing Knowledge (nobility) to Knowledge (history) is not ok, just because nobody at the table has Knowledge (nobility). That isn't creative, no matter how creative the player tries to be in explaining why Knowledge (history) should fit.
That particular use isn't creative. They might have an argument depending on the circumstances (as there's a significant amount of overlap between nobles and people who've done important thing in history). Identify the Chicken Heraldry of brave sir robin who ran away and died ignominiously to the kobolds who caught him his first time adventuring is definitely not a history check.
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** spoiler omitted **But Kyle, what does 1 prestige matter when I'm spending 16 on a rez already?Who said raise dead would work? It's hard for the local priests to piece back together a partially digested body..
that sounds like a definite heal check to bring them back without adding a few extra parts of whatever else that thing had for lunch...
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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that sounds like a definite heal check to bring them back without adding a few extra parts of whatever else that thing had for lunch...** spoiler omitted **But Kyle, what does 1 prestige matter when I'm spending 16 on a rez already?Who said raise dead would work? It's hard for the local priests to piece back together a partially digested body..
Sorry BNW, we can't add arbitrary skill checks for that task... :P
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The DM required me to make a difficult touch AC attack. My monk was a Monk of the Empty Hand, they get proficiency in improvised weapons and have throw anything.
It wasn't just an easy flick and problem solved. I still had to roll a difficult to hit roll to attach the fish hook to the macguffin.Right, but you've got weeks down there if you need it. Even if you can't take 20 in a classical sense, you can just keep trying till you get the 20. Even if it was a pain for your character, there doesn't seem to have been any actual challenge for the player or as you put it before, luck of the dice involved: your success was guaranteed the moment you came up with the idea.
Nope, I'm not a cheesy player. If I'd failed like twice, I'd have just given up. Funny thing is, that character wasn't Andoran, and there were no Andoran's in the group.
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What I'm saying is, changing Knowledge (nobility) to Knowledge (history) is not ok, just because nobody at the table has Knowledge (nobility). That isn't creative, no matter how creative the player tries to be in explaining why Knowledge (history) should fit.
But using a different skill to take a totally different approach can be creative. Note, I am not saying simple switch out. In the case of your Knowledge:Nobility if someone suggested using slight of hand to steal a book on the nobility and knowledge:history to steal the right book, is arguably possible if circumstances allow.
That is possibly creative enough.
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Nope, I'm not a cheesy player.
And you wonder where the hostility is coming from. You're calling people cheesy for doing something the rules specifically allow AND what their characters would likely do. I mean seriously, you're sent out to climb mountains, dredge privies, fetch the body parts of sentient beings, and commit murder for macguffins but for some reason spending an extra 5 minutes fishing is outside the bounds of reason.
If I'd failed like twice, I'd have just given up.
Some people are stubborn like that.
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I'm just going to take profession pathfinder as a skill and crank the skill up. Then, no matter what my faction asks me to do, I can turn to the GM and say, "Hmm, that sounds like a Pathfinder job, I'd like to substitute my profession skill."
there is an answer somewhere between here and putting magic plot barriers around the macguffins. I think if you want to up the difficulty it has to be done in the writing and its NOT simply a matter of writing in a higher DC.
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I think if you want to up the difficulty it has to be done in the writing and its NOT simply a matter of writing in a higher DC.
Okay, so provide some examples. Better yet, do us a favor and come up with 260 unique faction missions that provide greater difficulty w/o it being a "simple" matter of high DCs. Thanks!
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I think if you want to up the difficulty it has to be done in the writing and its NOT simply a matter of writing in a higher DC.Okay, so provide some examples. Better yet, do us a favor and come up with 260 unique faction missions that provide greater difficulty w/o it being a "simple" matter of high DCs. Thanks!
I don't think you can ever (or should ever) eliminate creative solutions. But the fact is that scratching out dc 20 and putting in dc 25 or 30 isn't going to accomplish anything if you want a higher failure rate.
-perception checks to find hidden things in unusual places where the character wouldn't be taking 20 (or is in too much of a hurry to take 20)
- sense motive checks, or better yet a series of them (scarzini, i need to get in touch with some of the shadier characters in town , i need about a dozen people of low moral character , could be a combined with a knowledge local check.)
-a good GMG example, the scarab you're trying to pry out is specifically described as delicate. making something delicate or with self destruct switches keeps people from prying out the entire statue and bringing it home.
-A survival check to track someone is pretty hard to duplicate if you don't know who/what they are, especially if you're on a time limit.
-A plant mixed in with other similar looking plants requiring a knowledge nature check (or a LOT of scrolls of locate animal or plant, depending on the area)
-Translating something at point A in the adventure and having to say it to a person at point B in the adventure instead of just having to bring it home.
In that vein, a hidden message that comprehend languages won't pick up
-Taking people you may not know you need to question alive/without dealing HP damage to them
-gaining an ally (one that has read the evil overlord list and has themselves periodically checked for magical influences)
-Some fact of knowledge history that has to be used during the scenario to spot the doppleganger impersonating the history professor.
I think in looking for a higher failure rate, the devs are
1) Underestimating how much the players hate to get less than a perfect score
2) Underestimate how many ways there are to accomplish a goal in the game
3) To some extend understand how bad a dm is going to feel for not giving his players everything.
4) Underestimating how much players will cooperate
5) Not realizing that people will adapt their characters to play the game that the characters are playing in: if you expect 1/5 characters to be an int 7 barbarian with no skill points but then have a campaign that's built in no small part around skills and versatility, there will be a shift towards skills and versatility. If you keep sending me out to translate things, I'm packing a small library of Comp. Language scrolls.
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I'm just going to take profession pathfinder as a skill and crank the skill up. Then, no matter what my faction asks me to do, I can turn to the GM and say, "Hmm, that sounds like a Pathfinder job, I'd like to substitute my profession skill."
This is an example of taking an argument to absurd conclusions. No GM would allow that AND YOU KNOW THAT. Many GMs would allow many of the examples that have shown up. You know that as well.
I've already provided some earlier. Better yet, do us a favor and come up with 260 unique faction missions that provide greater difficulty w/o it being a "simple" matter of high DCs. Thanks!
To ask for 260 is absurd and I think you know it. Please refrain from making requests requiring an absurd amount of proof. Several examples will do the job.
Defenders of the Nesting Swallow:
Rats of Round Mountain Part I: The Sundered Path
I have given other examples not including faction missions earlier in the thread. But if they were attempted as part of a faction mission, most GMs (from my experince) would allow my examples to work.
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To ask for 260 is absurd and I think you know it. Please refrain from making requests requiring an absurd amount of proof. Several examples will do the job.
260 is not absurd at all. RoRM Pt 1 is a good example. There are 2 out of 10 faction missions that don't require a skill check. The "problem" is that 8 out of 10 do. The challenge above was to come up with faction missions that are increasingly difficult to achieve w/o "simply" increasing the DC of a skill check. In order to do that for EVERY faction mission, we need to come up with 260 for the year. Can someone even come up with 10 completely unique and thematically correct faction missions that do that? Full faction missions, not just an idea, but the fluff for the player and the success conditions for the GM.
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Maybe I should be more clear. The ideas for faction missions aren't what's difficult, but coming up with a mechanical means for implementing it are. Take this:
"In that vein, a hidden message that comprehend languages won't pick up"
Write a complete faction mission, fluff and all that requires the PC to do this. Then write the instructions for the GM on how they are supposed to succeed at doing this.
Said message is only readable (in common) when the light of the full moon hits it, which only happens in the early in the evening (vein is in a cave) one night in 28. Alternately, a light spell cast at night could pick it up, if you can figure out where to look.
I could go on, but I think I made the point.
I could come up with a faction mission as could anyone else. 60% percent of players would, if there didn't have the skills or magical powers (and none of the other PCs did either) would then start looking for alternative ways to accomplish the faction mission. Unless the GM is prohibitively restrictive, many would succeed.
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Honored Scholar of Antiquities,
While investigating the Palace find any pieces of the former monument you can and translate it. The glory of its construction may be lost to the ages but with your help its wisdom may not be.
Mission Notes:
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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But Kyle, what does 1 prestige matter when I'm spending 16 on a rez already?Who said raise dead would work? It's hard for the local priests to piece back together a partially digested body..
Exactly how long does it take a *redacted* to eat a person in armor beyond the ability to be raised anyhow?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Well, if it's impossible to come up with enough faction missions without resorting to a trained-only skill check or the like, perhaps faction missions should just be dropped from low-tier scenarios.
I understand the desire to make them challenging. But the challenge needs to be interesting; being asked to make an impossible skill check because you put the only two skill points you have into something you actually use on every mission doesn't cut it.
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Exactly how long does it take a *redacted* to eat a person in armor beyond the ability to be raised anyhow?But Kyle, what does 1 prestige matter when I'm spending 16 on a rez already?Who said raise dead would work? It's hard for the local priests to piece back together a partially digested body..
1...2... CRUNCH.
The world may never know.