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What is the most optimal means of reloading a pair of firearms (assuming the traditional two hands) without having a break in one's full attacks?
I was hoping for something more specific, such as a step by step action sequence.
I know I would like to see a good build for this.
Presuming alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload?
Quick Draw one pistol (free action), reload/fire the first pistol until you run out of iterative attacks and drop it, Quick Draw second pistol (free action), reload/fire the second pistol until you run out of off-hand attacks. Next round alternate what gun is your main/off-hand, go through your attack sequence, drop the weapon and then "pick up" your "off-hand" weapon as a swift action with the weapon cords. Repeat every round.
Dragnmoon, I'm looking for the most efficient means of shooting and reloading using only two hands. I want to know what feats, gear, combo or whatever I would need to be able to constantly fire with repeated full attacks without having to waste an action to reload (like a bow).
Using weapon cords, a glove of holding, two double-barreled pistols, Rapid Reload, and paper cartridges, I've been able to get nearly three full attack actions at high levels before having to stop firing in order to reload.
I've heard of other people doing better with the same, or with less. I want to know how. What did I miss? What did I do wrong?
Who said anything about a duelist property?
EDIT: Did I spell the thread title wrong?
Who said anything about a duelist property?
EDIT: Did I spell the thread title wrong?
Yeah, should have been "dual."
Sure cant. You can draw as part of a move action with a +1 BAB. a 5 foot step is not a move action.
And this is assuming single shot early firearms?
On a side note, does anyone see a problem with the use of a speed loader with advanced firearms?
Sure cant. You can draw as part of a move action with a +1 BAB. a 5 foot step is not a move action.
Not even a move action. Pretty sure it says during a "normal move" or a charge.
usual technique with quick draw and weapons cords (and rapid reload & alchemical cartridges):
Round One
1. draw ONE pistol in right hand as a free action
2. fire right pistol as main-hand
3. reload with left hand which is free
(repeat 2. & 3. until all main-hand attacks depleted)
4. as a free action drop pistol in right hand
5. as a free action draw left pistol
6. fire left pistol
7. reload with right hand which is now free
(repeat 6. & 7. until all off-hand attacks depleted)Even Rounds
1. fire left pistol (it's still in your hand) as main-hand
2. reload with right hand which is free
(repeat steps 1. & 2. until all main-hand attacks depleted)
3. as a free action drop pistol in left hand
4. as a swift action recover pistol hanging from weapon cord on right hand
5. fire right pistol as off-hand
6. reload with left hand which is now free
(repeat 5. & 6. until all off-hand attacks depleted)Odd Rounds After Round One
1. fire right pistol (still in hand) as main-hand
2. reload with left hand which is free
(repeat 1. & 2. until all main-hand attacks used)
3. as a free action drop pistol in right hand
4. as a swift action recover the left hand pistol
5. fire left pistol as off-hand
6. reload with right hand which is now free
(repeat 5. & 6. as necessary)========
without the quick draw feat this is a problem, you have to start combat with one pistol in hand and the other hanging from the weapon cord, since drawing a pistol from a holster on your hip is a move action while recovering a pistol (dangling on a weapon cord from a hand which is moving all over!) is a swift action.
Thanks. This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. The only question now is, is this the most efficient means of continual fire available to a two-armed gunman?
In the past I tried something similar, but I avoided wasting a feat on Quick Draw and instead invested in a Glove of Storing. Didn't work out too well, as I usually started with both pistols out.
Thinking back on it, I'm not sure why I did that. Starting with just one out makes a whole lot more sense.
I was wondering how other people were getting more shots than me with the same tools. Now I know what I was doing wrong.
Thanks again.
Couldn't you reload using a prehensile tail(using the catfolk race), or put 2 levels in alchemist and grow an arm or tentacle(my favorite) to use for reloading? Then you wouldn't need to drop a gun to reload another.
Couldn't you reload using a prehensile tail(using the catfolk race), or put 2 levels in alchemist and grow an arm or tentacle(my favorite) to use for reloading? Then you wouldn't need to drop a gun to reload another.
Having to pick a specific race or take a multiclass dip seems less efficient to me than spending a feat, or getting a magic item. That's why I continually asked about a two-armed gunslinger, I wanted to know the most efficient method available for a traditional gunslinger.
Are free actions free?
Consult your GM, my players get one a round.
Are free actions free?
Consult your GM, my players get one a round.
no bearing on this thread at all.
On a side note, be amusing to have a hireling that you threw(see dropped next to for mechanic purposes) weapons at to reload for you. I believe swapping an item is a move action, so he uses his standard to reload the wep, move to hand the item off back to you.
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That is a swift action you are thinking of.Are free actions free?
Consult your GM, my players get one a round.
Also keep in mind the vague statement in the description of weapon cords...
you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
Any GM at any table can immediately go "nope reloading is a finer action".
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For PFS I thought about going down the dual wielding pistol route but I really didn't want to deal with GM's crying cheese and using lame areas of the rules that allowed for fiat.
The weapon cord description.
The free action limit description.
I learned in pathfinder (playing my first character at level 5ish), that you can get thrown in with a GM that just wants to ruin your fun even though you spent feats or other resources in making something work (like making something a free action, heaven forbid marshal types get to do cool stuff), only to have them say, "nope, too many free actions". Of course they couldn't give a shit about letting an archer fire off 10 arrows, because those 10 free actions couldn't possibly take more than the 6 seconds a round is supposed to simulate.
This has been covered in other threads but a Gunslinger dual-wielding pistols isn't the Juggernaut some people make it seem. Sure, the damage can be great (if you've eliminated misfire, but you're spending RESOURCES to do that), and if you are within your weapons first range increment (putting you in DANGER), and the NPCS/Creatures are letting you fire away without Controlling you somehow. But it's hardly more than a Barbarian or Fighter that puts in an equal amount of resources (enchants, feats) can do.
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For PFS I thought about going down the dual wielding pistol route but I really didn't want to deal with GM's crying cheese and using lame areas of the rules that allowed for fiat.
The weapon cord description.
** spoiler omitted **
The free action limit description.
** spoiler omitted **
I learned in pathfinder (playing my first character at level 5ish), that you can get thrown in with a GM that just wants to ruin your fun even though you spent feats or other resources in making something work (like making something a free action, heaven forbid marshal types get to do cool stuff), only to have them say, "nope, too many free actions". Of course they couldn't give a s$!% about letting an archer fire off 10 arrows, because those 10 free actions couldn't possibly take more than the 6 seconds a round is supposed to simulate.
This has been covered in other threads but a Gunslinger dual-wielding pistols isn't the Juggernaut some people make it seem. Sure, the damage can be great (if you've eliminated misfire, but you're spending RESOURCES to do that), and if you are within your weapons first range increment (putting you in DANGER), and the NPCS/Creatures are letting you fire away without Controlling you somehow. But it's hardly more than a Barbarian or Fighter that puts in an equal amount of resources (enchants, feats) can do.
The problem isn't the reloading free actions...its that you are using something you paid 1 silver for to overcome the biggest drawback to the class/build. When my player approached me and asked how to make it work I gave him BOTH ideas of the Alchemist and the Weapon Cords and told him that at my table the Weapon Cords won't work. If you want to take the investment to multiclass then fine, but the 1 silver solution is just cheap.
Is the Gunslinger a power house? Eh not really, but built right it can be pretty close. Sure you may misfire, but you don't have to invest quite as much into +hit because you are shooting at touch AC. And, as far as you being in DANGER for being in the first range increment I laugh. A level 7 Gunslinger with 2 levels in Alchemist shooting 2 pistols will EASILY have a 22-24 AC. That is HARDLY life threatening. Not to mention you start looking at Distance on weapons and that puts you more than a move away from most enemies, and if you are a Musket Master it puts you 80ft out as the first range increment.
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Musketmaster can't dual wield muskets (or can he?), so he's not really in the realm of TWF cheese being discussed. (muskets have higher misfire chance so won't be super effective until mid levels when they have resources/class abilities to neutralize it).
If you go with the 2 levels in alchemist to get the extra arm then I'd say all bets are off as to crying cheese because you've multi-classed, putting your future gunslinger goodies off for two levels. The extra AC, the ability to TWF without worrying about sundered weapon cords, is all okay because you've invested in it.
I don't see how using weapon cords to TWF is cheesy, although I know people do disagree. You are still putting feats in for rapid reload: pistol, you are using paper cartridges (increasing misfire), and you are using pistols (so you have to be close). The creatures being riddled with bullet fire should think about, move action toward gunslinger, grapple gunslinger. He can't reload because he can't perform actions that need two hands. And I can't overstate the impact misfire values have on guns. That stops your whole fullattack action TWF routine because you need to spend a move action to clear the barrel of the misfired gun, (or standard if you don't have grit). Once you get to the point where you get rid of misfire chance, you are high enough in level that you need to be doing tons of damage to be as effective as the fighters/barbarians. However, you are still within close range of your targets to be hit, grappled, controlled. (distance enchant means you've passed over something else, like reliable)
EDIT: I forgot to mention the feat investment in the TWF chain. Gunslingers aren't exactly swimming in the feats and there are plenty of "required" ones to be effective at using a ranged weapon so they have little room to diversify.
Ever since first reading this thread, I have been searching for speed shooting techniques, researching historical firearms, and looking for speed shooting techniques in archery. Mind you, this is derived from historical shooting as well as modern competition shooting.
Speed Shooting Shotgun
Speed Reloading Revolver
Speed Loading a Flintlock
I live with a bunch of gun nuts, so we tend to use firearms a lot in Pathfinder. However, most games I've heard about use early firearms only, meaning either flintlock or matchlock. These guns could get off 3 shots a minute at the fastest. Once the cartridge came along, you might be able to get a 4th shot off. It wasn't until the breech loader that shots could get up to 7-8 per minute. We don't see shooting that can compare to an archer until the the early-mid 1800's.
Speed Shooting Archery (btw, doesn't it look like Black Widow and Hawkeye had a baby?
This is the fastest archer I could find on YouTube. She still doesn't compare to "10 arrows in 6 seconds" that we see in games. I mean, sure, in a fantasy setting the rules of physics don't necessarily apply. There can only be so many Lewis Wetzels and Daniel Boones running around, those guys could reload a flintlock on the run and still hit the Indian that was chasing them.
I totally forget my original point...Oh well.
What cnetarian said is pretty much a good standard way. If you're capable of casting reloading hands (whether by spell, scroll, or whatever else) then there are other flows that are useful to memorize (though the method with the most shots per round is still the way described above).
For example, assuming you don't want to spend the money on lots of cartridge shots, and lack the ability to cast abundant ammunition (perhaps you ran out of scrolls of it), this is a method using a standard CL 3rd scroll of reloading hands, rapid reload (pistols), weapon cords, and bullets, and that both guns start out drawn and pre-loaded:
Round 1:
Full-round action - Fire both gunsRound 2 (setup):
Free Action - Drop left gun
Standard Action - Cast reloading hands on right gun
Swift Action - Retrieve left gun
Move Action - Load left gunRound 3 (Round 1 of 3 for RL-Hands):
Free action - Right gun reloads itself
Full round action - Fire both gunsRound 4 (Round 2 of 3 for RL-Hands):
Free action - Drop right gun
Move action - Load left gun
Swift action - Drawn right gun
Free action - Right gun reloads itself
Standard action - Fire right gunRound 5 (Round 3 of 3 for RL-Hands):
Free action - Right gun reloads itself
Full round action - Fire both gunsRound 6:
Free action - Drop left gun
Move action - Draw scroll of RL-Hands
Standard action - Take miscellaneous standard action (or second move action). As a spellslinger I use the opportunity to cast.Round 7:
Standard action - Cast reloading hands on right gun
Free action - Drop right gun
Swift action - Retrieve left gun
Move action - Load left gunAfter round 7, return to round 3 instructions and repeat.
This method gives 5 shots plus one miscellaneous standard action every 5 rounds (after setup), it's slightly better than a single-pistol gunslinger's reload scheme, though not if battles are overly short.
It doesn't compare at all to cartridges of course. It's more of a backup in case you run out of Abundant Ammunition.
At higher levels cartridges start coming into play, as free actions to reload are necessary for getting more shots with BAB and bullets are quite simply worse than cartridges. With cartridges it becomes nice to cast Abundant Ammunition as well, as cartridges can get expensive (a single scroll of AA more than pays for itself after just 3 shots with standard paper cartridges, and in the grand scheme of things, investing cheap scrolls and 1st level spell slots into Abundant Ammunition saves you tons in the long run). The only real downside to cartridges is the misfire chance, so reliable and greater reliable firearms are a decent choice. Or, assuming one is a Pistolero Gunslinger, at 13th level the misfire chance goes away completely.
Abundant Ammunition + paper cartridges:
Pre-combat:
Keep a readied action to cast Abundant Ammunition at the first sign of danger. Drop scroll as a free action after casting if scroll was used.Round 1 (and beyond):
Proceed to cnetarian's method.
Once you start getting more than 3 attacks per round dual-reloading really depends on the GM. If your GM will let you drop a gun (as a free action) in the middle of a full round action then it's still doable by firing both guns, dropping one, and continuing to load and fire the other (to the max that your BAB + feats will allow) with free actions and cartridges, essentially like a single-pistol wielder would, but with an extra attack.
If you GM won't allow a free action during a full round action then dual pistols start getting less and less useful at higher levels, unless you decide to dip 2 levels of alchemist for the extra arm.
Vanara have that prehensile tail that can easily hold a firearm (but not shoot it), also their bonuses sit well for a gunslinger.
The cheese is that players want the luxury of firing as a ranged touch attack and adding dex to damage as the class is designed, in addition to receiving full two-weapon fighting iteratives. There have to be some tradeoffs.
So then it's perfectly fine for paladins, fighters, and rangers to do this since they aren't adding dex to damage right?
Because gunslinger is the only possible way someone would want to dual wield pistols. There is no reason other than pure cheese for wanting to do this -- the only reason a person would possibly have for wanting to use two pistols at a time is cheese.
The cheese is that players want the luxury of firing as a ranged touch attack and adding dex to damage as the class is designed, in addition to receiving full two-weapon fighting iteratives. There have to be some tradeoffs.So then it's perfectly fine for paladins, fighters, and rangers to do this since they aren't adding dex to damage right?
Because gunslinger is the only possible way someone would want to dual wield pistols. There is no reason other than pure cheese for wanting to do this -- the only reason a person would possibly have for wanting to use two pistols at a time is cheese.
You do have to understand that just because you cant think of a reason to do something does not mean that someone else cannot as well. The concept of a cowboy or old westerner with his two 'six shooters' is quite iconic. Also just because you chose to create this 'iconic' char does not mean he dose not get annoyed by that uber paly out shining him all the time and try to catch up efficiency wise.
Ps if that was sarcasm, it completely flew over my head, also I got a question.1) Alchemical cartridge, in the d20pfsrd, they only say that they increase the misfire value by one. people keep saying that they decrease the speed of loading a gun. what are the rules for this?
It was sarcasm, but don't worry too much, internet imposes at least a -20 on detect sarcasm checks.
Paper cartridges are a specific alchemical cartridge that reduces loading times. alchemical cartridges is a type of overall cartridge that includes many different types.
It's not really complete yet, there is a lot of information in the ultimate combat book that isn't there yet for firearms -- it used to be so it's probably just a case of them changing up the site some.
Ya that was the link I was using but if you click on the paper cartridge you get this;
This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.
Again nothing about reducing the load time. I just found this, is this what people are talking about?
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Ps ive got a trait called gullible, It imposes a -10 on detect sarcasm checks and initiative but allows me to stay in ignorant bliss longer. lots of fun that one 8P
Sry, this might be a little off current subject but the OP's route around taking quick draw using gloves or storing wouldn't work... unless using dnd 3.5 material over pathfinder is allowed in your game.
Pathfinders version is glove (singular) of storing and says that one glove takes up both hand slots, it also goes on to specifically state you cannot use 2 gloves of storing.
Don't feel bad though, there's been alot of *little* changes between dnd and pathfinder and I catch myself with these situations all the time
Ya that was the link I was using but if you click on the paper cartridge you get this;
This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.Again nothing about reducing the load time. I just found this, is this what people are talking about?
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Ps ive got a trait called gullible, It imposes a -10 on detect sarcasm checks and initiative but allows me to stay in ignorant bliss longer. lots of fun that one 8P
No... This part is:
Alchemical Cartridges: An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.
Paper cartridges are just the cheapest of the alchemical cartridges that really do damage (salt rock only goes in scatter weapons and flares are half damage).
usual technique with quick draw and weapons cords (and rapid reload & alchemical cartridges):
Round One
1. draw ONE pistol in right hand as a free action
2. fire right pistol as main-hand
3. reload with left hand which is free
(repeat 2. & 3. until all main-hand attacks depleted)
4. as a free action drop pistol in right hand
5. as a free action draw left pistol
6. fire left pistol
7. reload with right hand which is now free
(repeat 6. & 7. until all off-hand attacks depleted)Etc...
Don't iterative attacks have to be made in order from highest to lowest?
With TWF it has to be (+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1) not (+16/+11/+6/+1/+11/+6/+1) You can't break the order up.
Is there a feat or class ability that lets you do this?
Ya that was the link I was using but if you click on the paper cartridge you get this;
This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.Again nothing about reducing the load time. I just found this, is this what people are talking about?
Alchemical Cartridges: An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry. (emphasis mine)
Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.
So using a paper cartridge increases it's misfire value by 1, by dint of it being an alchemical cartridge, it also reduces the reload time.