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Wow, you really showed him who is da boss!
In that situation I'd have just ignored you and proceeded acting like you were not the GM anymore: then I'd have sent you on a quest to get your powers back, something like fetching beer.
2 copper.
lastly... if the player (as noted in his post) didn't even realize he was being punished it seems clear to me that the GM expected the player to read the GMs mind but the GM never bothered to take into account th players intent or explain/clarify what the player had done wrong which may be something the GM should consider in the future. Remember, players are playing a game. Role play or not they are not ACTUALLY worshiping the in game gods and are likely not asking to have every thing they say scrutinized for opportunities to be punished
having said all that which you may or may not have read If the OP is asking for advice on how to make the PC atone, you have already denied him spells for a combat and slowed his casting for the day. if that's not enough atonement for what you admit was a players slip of the tongue then hand waving an extra hour of prayer or maybe a prick on the finger blood sacrifice is about the most I can suggest.
Anything beyond that, in my opinion, would be simply too much punishment for a player who was not making a grand statement about his god but simply making a tactical comment and moving on with the story.
as you have already received similar comments any continuing arguments about people not answering your question or unfairly commenting on your actions are purely factitious.
If your looking for not punishment but a way to further develop the character... try a dream sequence and go from there. dont punish the player for a slip then ask him to dig his way out.
But if you ask people about your pants, don't be upset when they comment on your thighs.
Asmodeus has all the time in the world but his time is precious. What makes you think he even notices or cares about what one pitiful follower is doing as long as he's not messing up greater schemes with his actions?
Asmodeus has all the time in the world but his time is precious. What makes you think he even notices or cares about what one pitiful follower is doing as long as he's not messing up greater schemes with his actions?
That's what would make attention from Asmodeus so scary.
As for being "unfair to the player",...come on, people. When Conan got caught by Thulsedoom and nailed to the Tree of Woe, you didn't hear him complain "THEES EEZ TOTALLY UNFAHHHR! YOU AHH A TERRIBLE GEEE HEMMM!!!" No, he accepted that his Bluff roll failed against the cultists, and let the GM throw him a bone, didn't he? The story moved on. PC's have ups and downs.
Unless Asmodeus having an extreme (ie any) interest in the punished character is some sort of foreshadowing, I still see it as unnecessary and suspension of disbelief breaking (as far as that applies to DnD).
Enslave a halfling family, use the proceeds to fund a new church. Bonus points for using slave labor to build the church. Inquisition the aforementioned halfling community, sentence those found wanting to slavery - duration based upon the heinousness of the crime. Those who convert to Asmodeus are contracted as indentured servants instead of being enslaved. The halfing that strikes his fancy becomes his minion.
Asmodeus has all the time in the world but his time is precious. What makes you think he even notices or cares about what one pitiful follower is doing as long as he's not messing up greater schemes with his actions?That's what would make attention from Asmodeus so scary.
As for being "unfair to the player",...come on, people. When Conan got caught by Thulsedoom and nailed to the Tree of Woe, you didn't hear him complain "THEES EEZ TOTALLY UNFAHHHR! YOU AHH A TERRIBLE GEEE HEMMM!!!" No, he accepted that his Bluff roll failed against the cultists, and let the GM throw him a bone, didn't he? The story moved on. PC's have ups and downs.
One thing to remember, though, is that this isn't a storybook or a novel. It is a game, played by people with different styles of gaming. Tropes you see in books like Deus ex Machina just don't translate well into the gaming group. It's good to love the RP aspect of gaming but don't let it blind you to the feelings of your players.
Secondly, your example is just very different from what happened. Like comparing apples and oranges.
This reminds me of a story. But, it's not really for the light of heart. So if you don't want to read about in-game rape, I'd suggest not reading on.
By awesome, I mean horrifying...
The new guy made an evil devil themed wizard that wanted to bind devils for his own twisted purposes. However, his character had kept that a secret from the others, instead going under the guise as a travelling wizard. He was genuinely helpful the first half of the game session, although you could tell he didn't like the paladin of Pelor (what is everyone's hard on with punishing us worshipers of the sun?). It came a bit to a head when the paladin destroyed a bad guy's artifact that the devil wizard secretly wanted because of it's devil summoning abilities. Of course, the paladin didn't know that, although he was becoming suspicious of the wizard.
Towards the ending half of the session is when the game fell to shit. The wizard tired of his facade of kindness and tired of suffering the paladin's faith. So, while the fighter and ranger were out getting supplies, the wizard lured the paladin and the rogue (a female player that was new to the game) to his inn room and cast dominate person on the two of them. At this point, everyone in the gaming store watched in horror as the wizard forced the paladin to rape the rogue. The player laughed with this evil glee as he then joined in. He kept describing in horrible and unnecessary detail what he was doing to the rogue. The GM ruled the paladin would lose his powers for joining in such a terrible act.
The paladin player was pissed and looked like he was going to box the wizard player. The rogue player was in tears and she ran from the table, never coming back to the store again. Even the fighter and ranger players were angry that the GM would let something like this happen. All the GM said was "This is a ROLEPLAYING game! If you can't handle it, then you can just go back to playing 4e!!"
Needless to say, the game died and the GM was no longer welcome to the store.
Looking back I feel like I could write an Aesop's Fables of bad GMing. I've encountered a lot of it.
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So yes, the OP should inform of house-rules and fluff-changes (he is aware of, mind you), and I did. Unless one doesn't read the opening post, in which case I imagine the following posts could confuse people, as they have.
I believe, when posters have written that 'the original poster ought to mention any houserules and fluff-changes in use', they mean within the first post in a thread, for the benefit of any readers here. Something like "In my game, I run Asmodeus as far more concerned with formalities than in canon, and his name and blessings are never invoked without fearful supplication..."
Since the player in question has turned up, and seems OK with the situation, I think it shows that whatever interpretation was in use, was known to the players.
I would still, personally, not take things further, as I think whatever point was intended has been made. The PC has noticed something went amiss, and has expressed an intent to investigate.
It also seems that there may have been an out-of-character failure of communication between player and GM...
I play the role of Navictar Baradin, inquisitor of Asmodeus, and to be honest, I didn't even notice the whole "Asmodeus has frowny face" part when it happened, mainly because the characters were in...<spoiler>...One of the other players did mention that Asmodeus might be a tad pissed off for some reason but I was sure it was because of <spoiler>'s presence.
I sympathise with the player, since I can see it playing out like so;
Player: "I'm soon going to be able to turn myself invisible. You should have this potion."
GM: "Are you sure about that?"
Player: "Yeah, sure." <what's the deal? I just said I don't mind him having the potion?>
Even though players may get campaign details, by verbal discussion, handouts, NPC cues, they are still players, in a game they visit for a short time every week. They don't live the setting 24/7, the way their characters do. They have classes, jobs and kids to prevent them reading your lovingly-crafted campaign wiki page, they have background noise, baby monitors to turn on, snacks to dish out, and other distractions to prevent them hearing every cue.
The players need the benefit of the doubt, because they are not their characters. They don't know things which would be second nature. If, in your campaign, all Chelaxians, even the magistrates and nobles, ward themselves when they mention His name, or qualify everything they say so as to avoid any inference of disrespect to HIM, then it would be common knowledge, they would be infamous for it, even to foreigners and people not affiliated with the church.
IMO, even if the player forgot to add "...if it be Asmodeus' will." or some other epithet to the end of his statement, his character wouldn't. It would be second nature, like saying 'bless you', after a sneeze.
To punish the player, especially over more than one session, seems excessive, on a par with punishing a non-churchgoing player for not knowing Mass when they play a Catholic priest in Call of Cthulhu.
"I give the injured the Last Rites.."
"Go on, then. Let's hear it."
"Eh? Erm, In nomine ...dulce decorum est...memento mori...err"
"WRONG! Lose 4 SANITY!"
so if Asmodeus is so proud would he immediatly smite down a solar who insults a cleric of him?
No really, saying things like "I can heal you" is not offending to gods in my book. Why else would you need a standard action if god is the one acting? Why have clerics wandering the world at all?
While you are the GM, and what you say is law, I will remind you that there are books filled with funny but stupid real life laws.
And if you're an extreme roleplayer, why would you allow him to know what he will soon get?
On the other hand there is precedence for a god acting that way in literature (Neschan Trilogy from Ralf Isau, a direct messenger of god threaned a land with what he will do, he lost his powers, repentet and lived to train the future messengers).
Also, I like the idea of having him contract someone with a contract devil.
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Since this is the advice forum, you're bound to get a bunch of opinions, most of which you'll probably disagree with.
In order to come up with what to do now, we should first look at how we got to this point. Hypothetically, why would Asmodeus put this character in this position?
First, I think that any divine character of Asmodeus should have some sort of formal contract that was created in order to gain power. It fits the flavor of the deity. They make a deal with a patron devil, who perhaps appears to them in a dream. They agree to their service in exchange for some power. Whenever the patron devil (one of Asmodeus's many followers, since I doubt the big guy bothers himself with talking to each of his followers personally... he's prideful, after all) sees that the character has gained enough experience in the world to have gotten used to his current power, he'll reappear and offer more (level up!).
Perhaps this inquisitor was contracted directly by the big guy, and that's why Asmodeus takes a personal interest in what he does. After all, PCs are exceptional.
Perhaps "always give glory to Asmodeus" was part of the contract. When the inquisitor failed to do so, Asmodeus is now being slow to hold up his end as a reminder.
I dislike the idea of sacrifice being associated with all evil gods. It doesn't really seem to fit Asmodeus, in my mind. Devils care for souls. A proper sacrifice would be to convince another mortal to join in eternal servitude to hell. Or help cause the downfall of one of the many enemies of the church.
Better yet, in exchange for forgiveness and the prospect of future increases in power, Asmodeus could demand an extra clause be added to the character's contract. Something easy to do that gives the character a small roleplaying thing to do every once in a while. Like a prayer they must pronounce after victory every once in a while (not every fight... that gets tedious) to remind all who stand of the source of their victory (Asmodeus, of course).
Just a couple ideas.
Edit: When I say that devils like souls, I mean that they use them as currency. They like to OWN souls. Simply killing virgins or paladins or what have you won't send their souls to hell. It requires decently high level magic to make a soul go somewhere other than the boneyard... That's why blackmailing people into signing their souls away is the favored pastime of devils.
Edit2: I personally imagine that Pharasma gets sent a magical carbon copy of every devil contract that has to do with a soul, so that she has it on file when she judges people. "Oh, you were a fairly consistent lawful neutral person, but this contract says you go to Hell instead of Nirvana. Enjoy the fires."
I personally always picture the smart devils as incredibly patient and not likely to screw over someone in a contract; after all you have eternity, they do not. Plus, trying to abuse a contract to get what you want early just means you get a bad name. Let them be satisfied and tell their friends all about how great devil contracts are, and then make them pay for all the annoyances once you collect on your side of the deal... but I guess that's not really what we're talking about.
This thread has enriched me with quite a few ideas of how I could go about doing this. And should I decide not to use those ideas in the case at hand, I now have different ideas to implement when opportunity strikes.
Thanks to everyone who posted advice on how this kind of minor slight could be atoned for. Your input is greatly appreciated and I hope to use your suggestions to improve my players' experience.
Thanks to those of my players who contributed to the post,
Thanks to those who posted, despite their posts not having anything to do with the question. I guess I'd rather have a bit of chaotic input than none at all :)
I believe I have gotten what I came for, so I'll stop actively posting here. If you still want to talk, feel free to PM me, but please keep it on-topic :)
Cheers.
-Nearyn
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This move would tell me to never play a divine caster while you DM because I would be afraid you'd try to grasp for ways to undermine my character.Indeed. This reminds me of a game that caused me to stop playing divine characters. I had a paladin with a group that was taking on a devil worshiping cleric. We defeated him and foiled his plan and the cleric begged and pleaded for mercy. I obliged and though I did restrain him so he could be sent to the kingdom's judicial system, I did not harm him and in fact, I tended his wounds.
However, the skies opened up and an angel came down before me and with quite a bit of disdain, told me my god disapproved of showing evil mercy and stripped me of all of my powers. Mind you, I have shown mercy to all evil doers we had come across and my cohort was even an ex-demon worshiper I turned to good. My god (Pelor) also preached mercy. Needless to say, I was displeased. Worse still was the fact that now, the angel wanted to put my paladin on trial, penalty of death for allowing a diabolist to live. So, my paladin was taken to heaven and tried and sent to Hell to, as my GM so eloquently put it, "fraternize with the devils I love so much".
I don't play paladins anymore because of this. Don't make the same mistake.
The lesson I'd take from this isn't "don't play paladins/divine characters" but rather "don't play with bad GMs". Sheesh. Guy reminds me of my worst and earliest experiences with the game, where the GM involved had a similar lolwhat approach towards alignment.
On the subject of bad GMs My first GM was a younger guy who not only ran a DMPC, even though we had six people already, but would actually waste hours of time RPing with NPCS even when it was pointless(We actually wasted 2 real hours while the party druid interorgated a rat using speak with animals. The rest of us were told we couldn't stop him since we weren't there.). Then to top it off we failed every mission we tried and had to be saved everytime by <insert random good aligned monster here>. This lasted about 4 months until several of us got to play at a local game store and found out what the game was really like.
And this story goes to show why I started Dming
Reward that player a Phylactery of faithfulness.
Never need to punish the player again.
Good for games where you are forced to deal with some levels of ambiguity, and have to deal with multiple parties. Otherwise known as "Amulet of Bad GM detection"
I think the lessons to be learned in this thread are 1. we all, as a forum community can be a little judgemental: the OP asked for suggestions, not criticism. I myself wanted to chime in with the same "don't punish the guy worshipping pride for being prideful" comment but didn't want to pour gasoline on it; 2. all GM's, even the really good ones, make bad judgement calls (again; I include myself here); 3. if there ever WAS a need to punish a divine-powered PC for an infraction there are A LOT of ways to do it!
I've railroaded, cajoled or even heckled my players in fits of bad judgement and I've been running games for 30 years. On the other hand I've gotten standing ovations and invites from other gaming groups to take over for their GM. I'm not any better or any worse than anybody else who's run a game in this thread - let he who hath not sinned cast the first D20...
Heck; I've just re-booted my campaign and had a character gen session to kick it off. We were all laughing, having a good time until it came to naming the characters. Bear in mind this is a homebrew and I'd spent months obsessing over it, crafting it, setting a tone, etc. The names the players came back with were some of the silliest I've seen in years. I lost my stuff right there at the table.
Needless to say; I've taken a cue from my players, lightened up, and re-tooled the game a tad since then. We live, we learn, we game.