| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, so apparently this has made me learn something about myself. I am capable of politely listening to almost any opinion just this side of hate speech and the semi incoherent reasoning behind it while remaining logical and rational but talk about someone rubbing one out in a tone of it being a dire threat to humanity’s well being and I just lose it and collapse into gales of laughter. Apparently there is actually a point where the absurd just breaks me, who knew?
Its not you that's crazy its the world.
If that makes you worry, you're sane.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
According to church dogma, each and every one of us designed for a purpose by God. He has known since creation whether or not the stuff he gave someone lead to Heaven - or Hell. He is omnipotent, too, so you can't claim he could not change it.
In other words, God designs some people specifically to end up in eternal torture.
Think about it again.
Until and unless a GOOD answer is found to this, I find the quote that "Hell is the absence of God" to be the most completely comforting one written on the topic of religion.
|
According to church dogma, each and every one of us designed for a purpose by God. He has known since creation whether or not the stuff he gave someone lead to Heaven - or Hell.
I think this statement needs a source.
Now, I'm not saying I haven't heard this before. I have definitely heard that God has a purpose for each of us.
However, for the most part, we are unaware of what that purpose is. The Bible does mention that God knows our hearts better than we do, and that he knows our actions before we take them, but the Bible also explicitly states that, when mankind is tempted, he is not tempted beyond that which he can bear.
Again, each person may have a purpose in God's grand, unknowable plans, but that does not necessarily mean that a person's life is directed in its entirety by him.
Also, the dead get a second chance to get to heaven, and since Christ kind of has everyone's back on that, I don't think it'll be much of an issue. >_>
I do not believe that God or Jesus "hates f@!&". I do not even believe that homosexuality is a sin, per se. Unless its definitively proven that that is a choice, then I have to say it's part of the plan.
|
|
It's a question of if you claim God is all-knowing, Davor. If he created us, and is all-knowing, he knows everything we will do. And if he knows that, he could have changed us so that we would choose Heaven. If he doesn't do that, he is making us predestined for Hell.
I know what you mean. I guess the main issue I have with that notion is that it implies that God's lack of action in a very material sense is spiteful or negligent, and disregards his lack of respect for our free will.
It's similar to a parent letting his child try something that he knows won't end well, but he allows it so that the child can learn from the experience. Yes, sometimes the child gets into trouble because of it, but the important thing is that, in the end, God can get you out of it, no matter the situation, though the salvation may come later rather than sooner :P.
|
|
The problem is, he knows if that learning will save you, or not, and if it doesn't, he has the power to change the experience so it DOES save you. A parent does not have that power, which is where the difference lies.
I think the use of the word "save" is important. What do you mean by "save"? Is it preventing the experience from happening? Negating the negative effects of it? Because salvation, in the grand sense, is already covered. Will there be punishment/consequences for our actions? Possibly. But, in the long run (i.e., the infinite afterlife), all of humanity is covered.
Salvation is already taken care of. Everything else is a roadbump by comparison.
|
|
So Hell is salvation to you? Do I understand correctly?
Nope. Christ died for all mankind, therefore, everyone gets a "get-out-of-hell free" card.
Essentially, there are a lot of people (I would argue all of mankind) that will have some time in hell. But the permanency of the situation is something I've never seen in my reading of scripture. Now, the permanency of the existence of hell, that crops up often, but the stay there doesn't. So, really, I couldn't care less if I'm in hell for a day or a thousand years, because the end result is the grace of God allowing me to be with him for eternity, which is a heck of a lot longer.
So Hell is salvation to you? Do I understand correctly?Nope. Christ died for all mankind, therefore, everyone gets a "get-out-of-hell free" card.
Essentially, there are a lot of people (I would argue all of mankind) that will have some time in hell. But the permanency of the situation is something I've never seen in my reading of scripture. Now, the permanency of the existence of hell, that crops up often, but the stay there doesn't. So, really, I couldn't care less if I'm in hell for a day or a thousand years, because the end result is the grace of God allowing me to be with him for eternity, which is a heck of a lot longer.
I can't say I have ever heard of this belief before. Usually what I hear is eternity in hell. The most common belief I hear is purgatory, the place between heaven and hell, is where you stay before being sent to one or the other for eternity.
|
|
Well, and I"m not promising that I'm right or anything, either. I've only read the Bible through twice, and I know there are translation errors, etc. But, the fundamental story of the Bible is that Christ died for our sins. End of story.
To use popular imagery, if you walk up to the pearly gates, no matter who you are, you have a laundry list of stuff you did wrong that'd go on forever... Except that all of that is crossed out, and in big letters it says, "Jesus got it. Let 'em through."
Now, the part hell has to play in that? I can't be totally sure. I am sure about the above part, though, which is really all that matters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was raised a Catholic, and I'm pretty familiar with the old line, "Jesus died for our sins", with the implication being that we wouldn't have to cop it 'cause he already had. It doesn't really make sense, but that was the gist of it.
It's quite weird reading all this. I'm an Aussie, and I could count on one hand the amount of people I know that actually believe this stuff. Jesus just isn't a part of mainstream Australia. Or rather, you could say his followers aren't. 50 years ago they were - my grandparents founded an Irish Catholic village outside of Melbourne, Victoria. But it seems that Australians have sort of gotten over it.
Australians are basically a happy people that don't give a f&^* about religion. Some of us do, but they don't make enough of a bother of themselves that people dislike them for it. Reading about a) the virulent hate, poison and discrimination that some religious Americans display, and b) the normal, nice folks that actually believe in their religion (no one normal in Australia believes in a religion) is just totally wacky.
Sorry if that sounds like I'm mocking your homeland - I'm really not, I'm a jazz musician, and your nation gave me my passion - but it's just so f*$%ing weird to hear people talking about Jesus, God, heaven and hell like it's real. That never happens in my heathen little country. Thank God.
@ littlehewy- weird considering your chief export seems to be religious zealots.
Ken Ham founder and curator of the creationism museum. Wackadoo.
Well, I suppose that's why they leave :)
But that's one... can you think of another? I'm pretty sure we export a lot of other things at a rate of more than 1 unit / forever...
;)
Jesus Christ. I just followed your link meatrace. That guy is abhorrent.
Just so you know, I would suggest that not many people in Australia know who Ken Ham is. I'd never heard of him till now.
But that's probably because we're all convicts and we all know we're going to hell anyway.
Well, I suppose that's why they leave :)
But that's one... can you think of another? I'm pretty sure we export a lot of other things at a rate of more than 1 unit / forever...
;)
Mel Gibson
Lol he's just a bigot, not a religious zealot. And in fairness, we have as many bigots as the States. By which I mean a lot.
Mel Gibson
In Australia's defense, Mel Gibson is from Peekskill, NY.
As far as not being a religious zealot?There is no salvation for those outside the Church ... I believe it.
Lol he's just a bigot, not a religious zealot. And in fairness, we have as many bigots as the States. By which I mean a lot.
Nah he's a pretty zealous catholic. His dad is a nutbag, he's a zany christian zealout, and he financed the biggest religious film ever made. Still counts in my book.
Also I'd argue Rupert Murdoch, while not a religious fanatic, is something you should have dealt with instead of unleashing it on the world.
Can't argue really. Although I would maintain that Mel made The Passion of the Christ because he knew it would sell in the US and because he hates Jews.
Not proud though. And everyone in Australia thinks Murdoch sucks balls.
Damn it, why couldn't I have taken the Australian Army offer?
You might count yourself lucky. Aussies don't venerate their servicemen quite like Americans do. It's because we didn't have a civil war to assert our freedoms, instead we just fed our aboriginal inhabitants flour laced with ground up glass and hunted them like animals.
I have an uncle who was a Vietnam vet. When those soldiers returned home, they were spat on by most of the population, even though the people were really angry with the government.
Again, on both counts, not proud.
But I maintain, religion is very much a peripheral issue in Australia. There's never been any question of creationism being taught exclusively in Christian schools here, let alone state schools. Even very "normal" religious people are considered fairly weird here.
Niether do I, it was just an attractive way to citizenship. ;PDamn it, why couldn't I have taken the Australian Army offer?You might count yourself lucky. Aussies don't venerate their servicemen quite like Americans do.
All things considered, it's not such a bad place to be :)
Niether do I, it was just an attractive way to citizenship. ;P
Wow hey! Welcome to the madness!
Hell is not part of the scripture. It is other religious dogma, but written in the first centuries AD. In a way, that is even worse, because it tells me that the church wanted an uneducated population that could not even understand the language of the mass, and was not allowed to read the bible, cowed by the threat of eternal torture in Hell.
Now, it is also part of church dogma that God is omnipotent. OMNIpotent. That is a seriously tall order. Blaming free will becomes so much drek, because an OMNIpotent God IS able to give us free will AND making us all choose correctly.
As for the length of the stay in Hell, I believe the actual RCC dogma states that when someone dies, they go to Purgatory to be cleansed. There they all stay until judgment day, when God chooses who will burn in Hell and who will join him in Heaven. For all eternity. The exception is those who are canonized and made saints, they get to go to an empty Heaven and chuck down popcorn until opening day.
When I was a kid they taught us about Limbo, too, which is supposedly where unbaptized infants went to await sorting. I think the pope did away with that by decree not too long ago.
AP - VATICAN CITY
POPE DELCARES PLANE OF EXISTENCE INVALID
"It must be so, then," an aid commented.
:(
AP - VATICAN CITY
POPE DELCARES PLANE OF EXISTENCE INVALID
"It must be so, then," an aid commented.
He must be a cleric under 3.0 rules. 17th level or higher. Casting Genesis to eliminate a demi-plane that already exists. That costs a lot of XP though.
Or he's a high level pathfinder cleric who cast create demi-plane, and just let the spell expire.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
...or he's just a dude in a big hat.
Or he's a high level pathfinder cleric who cast create demi-plane, and just let the spell expire.
Well HE didn't create the demi-plane, it has been part of doctrine for a while. Not sure how long, but certainly longer than Pope Wumpscut's reign.
Also, it's not just ANY hat.
It's a purdy hat. Liberace-esque, even.
|
|
Hell is not part of the scripture. It is other religious dogma, but written in the first centuries AD. In a way, that is even worse, because it tells me that the church wanted an uneducated population that could not even understand the language of the mass, and was not allowed to read the bible, cowed by the threat of eternal torture in Hell.
That's odd. I just looked it up in the NIV, and Jesus himself mentions the existence of hell. Now, if that's a translation error, do let me know, but I don't think you can say that hell isn't a part of scripture if the Christ talks about it.
Now, it is also part of church dogma that God is omnipotent. OMNIpotent. That is a seriously tall order. Blaming free will becomes so much drek, because an OMNIpotent God IS able to give us free will AND making us all choose correctly.
Except that God has been known to impose limits upon what he will and will not do (note the story of Moses). If God decides not to interfere with free will, then that's his decision. Maybe he's just curious to see what we'll do with it >_>. I wouldn't know, not being God and all.
As for the length of the stay in Hell, I believe the actual RCC dogma states that when someone dies, they go to Purgatory to be cleansed. There they all stay until judgment day, when God chooses who will burn in Hell and who will join him in Heaven. For all eternity. The exception is those who are canonized and made saints, they get to go to an empty Heaven and chuck down popcorn until opening day.
Meh. I'm not a Catholic, so they can believe whatever they want :P.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now, it is also part of church dogma that God is omnipotent. OMNIpotent. That is a seriously tall order. Blaming free will becomes so much drek, because an OMNIpotent God IS able to give us free will AND making us all choose correctly.Except that God has been known to impose limits upon what he will and will not do (note the story of Moses). If God decides not to interfere with free will, then that's his decision. Maybe he's just curious to see what we'll do with it >_>. I wouldn't know, not being God and all.
Personally, I would rather not believe in the existence of a being that is just toying with humanity for his own amusement instead of helping.
Jesus never mentions hell.
Yes it is a matter of translation, as so much is.
They translated multiple words as hell, including Sheol and Gehenna. Gehenna being a garbage dump, the implication being that if you're not a follower you simply die the death of flesh rather than living forever with god in heaven.
But the NIV has some serious problems, not the least of which being revisionist.
Personally, I would rather not believe in the existence of a being that is just toying with humanity for his own amusement instead of helping.Now, it is also part of church dogma that God is omnipotent. OMNIpotent. That is a seriously tall order. Blaming free will becomes so much drek, because an OMNIpotent God IS able to give us free will AND making us all choose correctly.Except that God has been known to impose limits upon what he will and will not do (note the story of Moses). If God decides not to interfere with free will, then that's his decision. Maybe he's just curious to see what we'll do with it >_>. I wouldn't know, not being God and all.
Yeah. It leads to my conclusion that god either doesn't exist, or is an enormous prick.
I always thought hell equaled true death, where your soul doesn't get to go on to the next level.
|
|
Personally, I would rather not believe in the existence of a being that is just toying with humanity for his own amusement instead of helping.Except that God has been known to impose limits upon what he will and will not do (note the story of Moses). If God decides not to interfere with free will, then that's his decision. Maybe he's just curious to see what we'll do with it >_>. I wouldn't know, not being God and all.
My point was that God has imposed limitations on himself before, and he doesn't touch free will. I don't mean to insinuate that he's toying with us, but rather that I have absolutely NO idea why God has restricted himself in that way, so I assigned a human attribute in a jovial manner. :P
@meatrace: Interesting...
|
** spoiler omitted **
We, including me and my children, you and yours, my neighbors down the street and the guy that always tries to wash my windows when I get stuck at the light on 7th and Main--we weren't there and had no say in the eating of any fruits, magical or otherwise.
So, if you believe in the story as a literal truth, then it's they and them, but not we and us...