Goblin Squad Member
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Please consider implementing the /rope command from Vanguard.
For those of you not familiar with this, in Vanguard you could target an ally, type /rope, and they would have the option of accepting your rope so they could basically teleport to where you were standing. It added a lot to the feeling of immersion at what I would expect was a pretty low cost.
The one thing I'd do differently is, instead of popping up a dialog on the targeted ally's screen (because any pop-up can be used to grief), simply give them a short-term buff that would allow them to /target me in return, and type something like /acceptrope.
As a general rule, I would think you should avoid pop-ups on my screen that are initiated by another character. A better pattern is to give me an unobtrusive indication that something is now available, and let me actively engage it if I choose. There's no harm in posting a system message like "Leegoolaas has thrown you a rope! <Target Leegoolaas> and type /acceptrope to climb to his position." "<Target Leegoolaas>" should be a link that I can click to target Leegoolaas. It probably wouldn't hurt to make "/acceptrope" a link that I can click as well.
As an added bonus, require me to have a Rope in my inventory, and base the range of the /rope command on the length of my Rope.
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Goblin Squad Member
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LOTRO has something similar to this. Guardians can mail an acorn and the receiving person can click on the item in their inventory to summon the Guardian to their spot.
If you are against a pop up, how about an onscreen message that would direct your attention to a new icon somewhere on the screen? You would then click the icon to initiate the UI needed to complete the summons?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the "onscreen message" has any potential to interfere with my ability to be 100% effective in a desperate PvP battle, then I am opposed to it.
That's why I recommended an "unobtrusive" message. If there's a tutorial, it would be nice for the tutorial to include instructions on all the potential abilities you can actively engage, and how to recognize their triggers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the "onscreen message" has any potential to interfere with my ability to be 100% effective in a desperate PvP battle, then I am opposed to it.
That's why I recommended an "unobtrusive" message. If there's a tutorial, it would be nice for the tutorial to include instructions on all the potential abilities you can actively engage, and how to recognize their triggers.
Well, SWTOR has code that will hold off on displaying a message if you are engaged in either the voice over quest gathering or combat. Something like that would work.
And I believe if you are looking at the popup and enter a state of combat, then the popup goes away until after the fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the "onscreen message" has any potential to interfere with my ability to be 100% effective in a desperate PvP battle, then I am opposed to it.
That's why I recommended an "unobtrusive" message. If there's a tutorial, it would be nice for the tutorial to include instructions on all the potential abilities you can actively engage, and how to recognize their triggers.
Well, SWTOR has code that will hold off on displaying a message if you are engaged in either the voice over quest gathering or combat. Something like that would work.
And I believe if you are looking at the popup and enter a state of combat, then the popup goes away until after the fight.
The downside to that is there are sometimes I could see this being useful in the middle of a fight. Say there is a battle raging on the ship of your deck and someone falls off into the shark infested waters. I think that is about the MOST useful scenario for this rope command, so you don't want them to not be able to receive the rope because either side is considered to be in combat.
Probably the best way to do it is an effect near your character's healthbar that you can click on to accept the rope. It should also give a noise that will alert you that a rope has been thrown to you.
Oh! And you should need a rope item in your inventory to activate this on someone. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, SWTOR has code that will hold off on displaying a message if you are engaged in either the voice over quest gathering or combat. Something like that would work.
I found SWTOR's "Pending Messages" queue unreliable. I think there needs to be something that makes it immediately clear at a glance what is available, but not in a disruptive way. It may very well be that the only way I'm going to live through my fight is if I take my friend's /rope and climb out of the pit I fell in.
I think that using it when either character is in combat should be prohibited- The last thing I want is a cheap and easy way for someone to warp out of a losing battle or warp in replacements-or both in quick succession.
A valid point, but I don't think it needs to be that stark. Perhaps a simple, easily interrupted timer-bar where appropriate. If I'm "in combat" but not actually being hit, I don't see any reason I shouldn't be able to take a /rope.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe if speed of which you travel to the person who threw you the rope was reduced during combat... in essence actually rope throwing and pulling mechanics applied. Non-combat scenarios present no problem for me, but once in combat it should function in a more limited yet still helpful manner.
Now I'm not familiar how this worked before so enlighten me a bit.
Could you /rope from different zones?
Did there need to be line of sight?
Was it possible to be used for circumventing hazards?
Did it have a radius limitation?
I like the idea, I just don't want it on the scale of quick travel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe if speed of which you travel to the person who threw you the rope was reduced during combat... in essence actually rope throwing and pulling mechanics applied. Non-combat scenarios present no problem for me, but once in combat it should function in a more limited yet still helpful manner.
Now I'm not familiar how this worked before so enlighten me a bit.
Could you /rope from different zones?
Did there need to be line of sight?
Was it possible to be used for circumventing hazards?
Did it have a radius limitation?
I like the idea, I just don't want it on the scale of quick travel.
Whether or not they had in vanguard I think there should be those kind of limitations here. LOS, radius limitations, the possibility certain hazards might block it or not be negated by it such as poisonous gases, and it being a channeled interrupt-able ability that doesn't move people particularly quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it being a channeled interrupt-able ability that doesn't move people particularly quickly.
I believe these should be reserved for combat. For instance if there is a crafters charter crafting in one section of the city, I don't see why once you are in the zone, you couldn't just port to your fellow crafters. That is a useful non-abusive application of the function.
Out in the wild, if your group is waiting for you and another group approaches wanting to enter a locking dungeon, you shouldn't be able to zip right to them so you avoid having to fend off the aggressors by entering the dungeon. That is abusive IMO.
As long as it stays non-abusive I think it's a very useful function that could be added.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it being a channeled interrupt-able ability that doesn't move people particularly quickly.I believe these should be reserved for combat. For instance if there is a crafters charter crafting in one section of the city, I don't see why once you are in the zone, you couldn't just port to your fellow crafters. That is a useful non-abusive application of the function.
Out in the wild, if your group is waiting for you and another group approaches wanting to enter a locking dungeon, you shouldn't be able to zip right to them so you avoid having to fend off the aggressors by entering the dungeon. That is abusive IMO.
As long as it stays non-abusive I think it's a very useful function that could be added.
Well I am entirely against quick-travel of almost any form because of the implications it has on trade, wars, and not being able to keep remote regions remote... but that is another subject.
If it were to be used as some cross city or cross zone teleportation system it needs to be called something other than a rope because a rope only reaches so far.
I fully support the use of a rope feature to pull someone out of the water, or allow your companion to cross a deep but narrow pit, or to allow someone to climb up or repel down the tall building you are working on.
I don't support some kind of crazy teleportation system, even if short range, unless it is liked to some kind of magic, and then only if it is short range (As in it can get you across town but not to the town five miles down the road.) and requires a specific merit badge or magical item. Well actually even then I don't support it I'm just not adamantly opposed to it.
Goblinworks Founder
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Sounds like a great pc game use for the rope trick spell from D&D. I would go as far as saying lets do it and add animations for it before the game gets past that point in development where it's too late to implement.
It sound kind of like what GW2 is doing with reviving fallen allies
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is an awesome idea, with one slight exception. With the modern code, there is no need to abstract the movement into a teleport. To me, seems like an actual animation and "zooming" of the target towards the puller. Also, brings up the idea of being pulled to the target as well, as maybe this "unobtrusive" UI element has a "go with" and a "pull" button. I see this as a great way to explore and circumvent hazards, as rope as pretty much done since its invention.
I completely agree that a middle of the screen dialogue box to accept is an outdated and terrible way to implement this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ArchAnjel, mind laying out some of the scenarios you see for undue advantage?
A large part of my reason for asking for it is because of how cool it felt to use it in Vanguard, and because of how cool it felt when I was 12 (almost 30 years ago) sitting around a table deciding what I was going to carry with me on my adventure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ArchAnjel, mind laying out some of the scenarios you see for undue advantage?
The first thing that came to mind was someone exploiting the geometry to reach somewhere he shouldn't and then using /rope to get all his friends up there with him without them having to screenshot-jump or use whatever method was used by the original offender. That just makes it easier for people to exploit terrain.
When I thought about using it in PvP, having a friend instantly teleport you even a few feet could make a world of difference in a fight. I'm sure I don't have to spell those out; if you think about it could be used in that way, you're sure to come up with a few creative examples.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I guess I'm not worried about those kinds of things. The cost of having to activate an ability that took time to complete would more than offset any advantage in a fight.
And the idea of a Thief being able to scale a castle wall and then throw down a rope to his companions just thrills me...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Usually when there's a place not "meant" to be traveled to is due to an underdeveloped part of the world. More development time spent earlier on a complete and completely accessible game world is a preferred approach for a true sandbox anyway. Also, if its an exploit for 1 player, its an exploit for all players... not really an exploit anymore. I've been hoping/advocating for a climbing skill, as well as a highly varied, detailed and fully developed world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe it would add to the immersion of the game. I understand that there is only so much they can do and they want to put the game out faster than normal MMOs. I just hope they look into "simple" innovations like climbing walls instead of going for the textured "climb wall here" sections of prefabricated wall. If I can climb the wall there why can't I climb it everywhere else. The concept they have so far is very innovative and little things like that can really go a long way towards their goal of immersion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Usually when there's a place not "meant" to be traveled to is due to an underdeveloped part of the world. More development time spent earlier on a complete and completely accessible game world is a preferred approach for a true sandbox anyway. Also, if its an exploit for 1 player, its an exploit for all players... not really an exploit anymore. I've been hoping/advocating for a climbing skill, as well as a highly varied, detailed and fully developed world.
If you are not "meant" to go somewhere then chances are you really should not go there.
I remember seeing posts in the LOTRO forums when the topic of running on the rooftops in Bree comes up. They warn against going up there. The reason given is that if your character gets stuck somewhere up there, chances are VERY good no one at Turbine will be able to unstuck you. Your character is nowhere in the normal database.
For examples like this, I am fully in favor of there sometimes being artificial methods to prevent characters from going somewhere.
It may "break immersion" but for the sake of my characters in the database, I am OK with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why would you drop from a database from running on roofs? Did they not take into account that people can be on roofs?
Different game I know, but look at Assassin's Creed. Not necessarily the character mechanics of parkour, but the ability to go just about everywhere. There were still areas that you couldn't go, but they made sense. Not being able to climb on top of a roof doesn't make sense.
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Goblinworks Founder
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The GTA games like GTA4 and San Andreas had great animations for jumping over waist high walls and fences and had anchor points for climbing. I would like to see something like that if the engine permits. I think we are getting off topic a little though. With regard to rope I would love to see anchor points that let thieves climb and then secure a rope to help others climb up to the same spot. By limiting it to anchor points you would avoid exploitation of climbing where you shouldn't be. Age of Conan had a limited climb system but the whole time I played it I just kept thinking it would be cooler if it were more like tomb raider or GTA
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What Warhammer Online has, is a zone where "incidental" abilities appear. Things like "click this button to release your buddy from the grasping skeletons" and "click this button related to the buff you just got from the runepriest".
It might be an idea to put a "use" ability on a rope, which then puts a "jump here" ability on the friendly target when activated.
I remember seeing posts in the LOTRO forums when the topic of running on the rooftops in Bree comes up. They warn against going up there. The reason given is that if your character gets stuck somewhere up there, chances are VERY good no one at Turbine will be able to unstuck you. Your character is nowhere in the normal database.
Sounds to me like an urban legend/attempt to scare people of doing stupid things. Data define available space of movement, if one reaches the border of "database" then he won't be able of moving past the border, not move beyond beyond the database (as there is nothing there, and not nothing as an empty space but nothing as lack of space). Unless the creators deliberately added procedures that erase things out of database when moving past certain point.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that the LOTRO example might be real, with one area handing off the character to another area on exit. It's not that you are removed from the DB on logging out in a "non area" but that you can't be found be the unsticking tools after you do.
For PFO, I'd like to see a graduated climb ability where higher abilities allowed access to more areas and shortcuts, or carrying heavier loads. I don't think lots of climbing animations would add much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having a loop hole that allows players to be dropped and unfindable is a grievous error in the code. So, I'll clarify my statement: an underdeveloped part of the world, and i mean this in the strictest sense as applying to the code as well, should either be developed properly, or unreachable by any means. As i'm sure all parties involved would prefer the former, but accept the latter. Having some sort of silly terribad bug like not being unstuck by developer's side tools is simply an unacceptable error.
That being said, what I was really hoping for was the capacity to literally go anywhere; a true sandbox. If that means neat features like climbing and roping are available, I'm double stoked. too long have i played games where my heroic actor was stymied from passage by a slope I could scamper up in 2 minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Trees should be useful for ambushing ie shoot some arrows etc. I was climbing some trees the other day (with ropes etc) and my friend fell 15ft - ouch. So perhaps useful but also dangerous if you fall too far as well?
Cliffs as well. Mainly climbing as a skill that acrobatic types can use to successfully disengage/guerilla utilize - ie they know they have climbing ability of 15m/ and so hunt around for a cliff of about 15m as a bolt-route or ambush sight/site ;).
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Goblin Squad Member
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With the way most MMO's handle jumping and walking on slopes, there are numerous areas where players, even without any sort of climb mechanic, end up in locations they aren't supposed to get to.
In general, with how collision detection works for letting players jump from one platform to another, I don't think it'd be too complicated to have a secondary detector for if the middle of their upper body collides with the edge, allowing them to pull themselves up.
Obviously how high on their character model the platform edge hits would be controlled by their jump skill and by feasibility.
Furthermore, rather than having specifically climbable locations, if all near-vertical surfaces had a climb difficulty, then only characters sufficiently adept at climbing would enter into a vertical 'climbing' animation, and be allowed to scale.
You could even include things where if the character's skill is close to the borderline then every certain amount of distance they have a chance of falling. (This fall chance could be reduced by having ropes/other climbing gear equipped)
And in regards to making it so players can't get to places they're not supposed to, most other games handle it by making terrain that has a slope that is too steep to climb (And still sometimes players get around it by running tangent to the gradient on an impossibly steep surface).
The terrain of the game would just need to be designed with the fact that some characters will be able to go up very steep slopes.
(Of course perfectly smooth surfaces would still be unclimbable, and surfaces that have an angle beyond vertical would likewise be impossible.)
If there is ANY intent for flight based spells/mechanics to ever make it into the game, I think it's only fair to include some sort of climbing mechanism to allow martial characters to reach similar areas.