Howdy one and all.
As you can see from my Subject matter, i have a question regarding characters who are Atheist (as in they do not believe in the gods existing).
A player in my game believes that it is possible to play such a person, but I believe that in a world such as Golarion where the gods have proven without any shadow of a doubt that they exist, to claim they don't is like claiming humans don't exist when you're playing one. It is just moronic and doesn't work.
I argue that Atheism exists in the real world because there is no irrifuteable proof of any god/gods existing, but in a game world where there are many gods who take an active role in the world, you CANNOT deny their existance, particularly as one of the more spiteful gods will likly strike you down the first time you try uttering that they do not exist.
I would like some thought on the matter. How could one seriously believe the gods don't exist without being completely insane or being struck down by one of the gods you're denying?
Lol, such a stupid topic i know, but the player is a stubborn jackass and so any thoughts on it would help. Thank you.
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Atheism does exist in a manner in Golarion, in the nation of Rahadoum. In that nation, clerics and holy symbols are illegal. Their reasoning is because the worshipers of different deities keep fighting each other and cause pain to the common people in general. Tired of the constant bloodshed religious crusades bring, they torched all of their churches and banned religion, divine magic, and holy symbols.
Atheism would have to be redefined a bit in fantasy terms. Here are some ideas I myself have used.
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.
2. I've seen mortal men fell entire swaths of orcs with a flick of the wrist and a fireball to the face. As far as I'm concerned, gods are just better wizards.
3. The Rahadoum Way. Worshiping the gods bring nothing but pain and misery and only furthers war and closed-mindedness with each other. I follow my own laws of morality and shall not be beholden to some immortal.
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Its definitely possible. It might be possible without insanity.
What visible manifestations of divinity do most people run into?
Clerics: The cleric says ickity ackety ook and someone is healed. The wizard says ickity ackety ook and a giant ball of fire appears out of nowhere. That some magic is divine and some is merely arcane isn't particularly obvious, and thats before you have arcane casters like bards and alchemists being able to heal as well. Concluding that the cleric is just doing magic on their own is a reasonable conclusion.
Outsiders: Angels, Demons, they all exist. What's to prevent one of them from putting on airs and declaring themselves a god? They're immortal, incredibly powerful, some of them can even grant their followers spells.
Even IF a deity were to come down in front of you, how could you tell it apart from a powerful angel?
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The player is using real world perspectives in a fantasy context.
Unfortunately that doesn't work very well. It is possible to not worship any gods. You just end up in Pharasma's graveyard. Not believing that they exist is just being a stubborn idiot. He probably wouldn't get smitten (smote?) right away, but as soon as he started holding enough sway to influence any significant amount of people with his delusion he'd probably turn into a cinder on the spot. Or disappear. Or become some kind of grotesque beast, depending on the god that noticed first.
Edit: I didn't know about the nation that had forsworn religion. Even still, it's not true Atheism. As was mentioned, you probably would have to re-define it a little.
There was a monster thread recently about atheism that might be worth your time.
It depends on your definition of "Gods"
If a player was deadset on playing one, I could let him get away with....
* The character believes that the creatures people worship don't actually exist, the magic they create is no different from the magic a wizard creates, they just substitute childish delusion for arcane study
* The character accepts that the entities are real, but denies that they are anything more influential than any other large monster from another plane, and considers each so called "god" to be just a charlatan that fooled people into organized obedience
Neither is accurate to the game world, but I could easily allow a character to delude themselves into it to conform to what the player wants to play.
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Rahadoum atheism is not the variety being discussed.
As for the 'complete disbelief' version, it's possible, but it's not gonna be widely accepted, and is moon-landing-denial level delusional and seen as such (as well as blasphemous).
I mean, there's nothing your average Level 1-8 guy has seen to prove the existence of deities that couldn't be faked with more Arcane magics, but the people who have access to high level magics of various sorts have various ways to prove that sort of thing, and most sane low-level people believe them, even if they lack faith. But occasionally you get this lone whacko...
It really is like the moon landing. Could it have been faked based on that one video? Sure. Was it? All the credible experts say it wasn't, so only a complex conspiracy theory can explain why they'd say that. Same with deity existence in Golarion (or most other D&D worlds).
Creative Director
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It is possible to not worship any gods. You just end up in Pharasma's graveyard.
That's the simplistic version, actually... it's a lot more complex than that. Just as with anyone else, what ends up happening to an athiest's soul in Golarion depends a lot on how "successful" that soul was in life. If they're failures, they'll go to the graveyard. If they're not, they could be reincarnated... but if they're great succeses, those souls become free-roaming spirits that are allowed to drift off into the multiverse to go wherever they want to learn whatever they want and do whatever they want.
An atheist is a person who lacks faith in a god, not necessarily someone who says there are nothing we consider supernatural.
An atheist in a world like golarion would likely believe either that 1. the gods do not exist, divine magic is granted by some faceless force like it is for many druids or 2. what is considered deities by many do not qualify as a "god"; they are no more worthy of "faith" than any powerful creature.
You could always take the Shadowrun approach to magic and spirits and reverse it. In that game, all sorts of magical traditions are based in world religions and try to use the tenets of divinity and gods to explain arcane magic. This character could be an atheist that believes that all divine magic is just another form of arcane magic that entire religions have misunderstood as being granted from non-existent gods.
Or then there's always the good old "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" option. Clearly these aren't gods, but rather very advanced alien beings.
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Even IF a deity were to come down in front of you, how could you tell it apart from a powerful angel?
As a matter of fact, what is the difference between a god and a powerful angel, demon, or other supernatural being? It's not like the gods are omnipotent or omniscient. They aren't all benevolent either. They are just powerful beings from another plane who mortals sometimes serve. Nothing special about them really, maybe worthy of respect or fear, but not worship.
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It is possible to not worship any gods. You just end up in Pharasma's graveyard.That's the simplistic version, actually... it's a lot more complex than that. Just as with anyone else, what ends up happening to an athiest's soul in Golarion depends a lot on how "successful" that soul was in life. If they're failures, they'll go to the graveyard. If they're not, they could be reincarnated... but if they're great succeses, those souls become free-roaming spirits that are allowed to drift off into the multiverse to go wherever they want to learn whatever they want and do whatever they want.
You're right, it was simplified. Just being concise. :)
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1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.2. I've seen mortal men fell entire swaths of orcs with a flick of the wrist and a fireball to the face. As far as I'm concerned, gods are just better wizards.
3. The Rahadoum Way. Worshiping the gods bring nothing but pain and misery and only furthers war and closed-mindedness with each other. I follow my own laws of morality and shall not be beholden to some immortal.
As a real-world atheist, I have to take issue with these definitions. The belief in and hatred of gods is not atheism; it's misotheism, and it's distinct from a lack of a belief. It bothers me tremendously because including that definition under the umbrella term of atheism lends credence to people who assume I call myself an atheist because I have some issue with god or am just angry. Example #1 would be a misotheist, not an atheist. (Although, personally, since it is still somebody who recognizes the role and divinity of god or gods, I'd still call that person a theist. Just a theist with a giant chip on his shoulder.)
I do appreciate that Pathfinder did not make the nonreligious society evil, the way D&D did with the human-drow equivalent that was a nation of delusional, militant atheists; but Rahadoum doesn't quite fit the bill either. They're more Deist than anything. "Sure, there are gods, but organized religion just causes problems."
#2 is the closest to actual, real-world atheism---although it still recognizes that gods exist and have an immense power, and would therefore not qualify. But it is about as close as I could understand somebody in Golarion being to a nonbeliever. Most of my characters generally recognize the power of the gods but don't pay them any traditional worship. (Aside from my Paladins. Holy Knights should serve a god, I feel.) I could see a lower level NPC class who spends their entire life on the farm or in town being a straight-up atheist. But any high level adventurer at some point is going to deal with different planes of existence and extraplanar beings. They are going to see firsthand divine power. Even if they do not believe that the gods exist precisely as they are represented, it would be borderline delusional to say there's nothing.
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.2. I've seen mortal men fell entire swaths of orcs with a flick of the wrist and a fireball to the face. As far as I'm concerned, gods are just better wizards.
3. The Rahadoum Way. Worshiping the gods bring nothing but pain and misery and only furthers war and closed-mindedness with each other. I follow my own laws of morality and shall not be beholden to some immortal.
As a real-world atheist, I have to take issue with these definitions. The belief in and hatred of gods is not atheism; it's misotheism, and it's distinct from a lack of a belief. It bothers me tremendously because including that definition under the umbrella term of atheism lends credence to people who assume I call myself an atheist because I have some issue with god or am just angry. Example #1 would be a misotheist, not an atheist. (Although, personally, since it is still somebody who recognizes the role and divinity of god or gods, I'd still call that person a theist. Just a theist with a giant chip on his shoulder.)
I do appreciate that Pathfinder did not make the nonreligious society evil, the way D&D did with the human-drow equivalent that was a nation of delusional, militant atheists; but Rahadoum doesn't quite fit the bill either. They're more Deist than anything. "Sure, there are gods, but organized religion just causes problems."
#2 is the closest to actual, real-world atheism---although it still recognizes that gods exist and have an immense power, and would therefore not qualify. But it is about as close as I could understand somebody in Golarion being to a nonbeliever. Most of my characters generally recognize the power of the gods but don't pay them any traditional worship. (Aside from my Paladins. Holy Knights should serve a god, I feel.) I could see a lower level NPC class who spends their entire life on the farm or in town being a straight-up atheist. But any high level...
I understand that. However, as I also said in my post, atheism in a fantasy setting where the gods do show their existence would have to have a different definition or outlook than what you and I would consider atheism. Those listed were just different ways to try and fit a character that didn't believe in the gods and does not reflect the actual thoughts of real world atheists.
I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.
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Just as with anyone else, what ends up happening to an athiest's soul in Golarion depends a lot on how "successful" that soul was in life. If they're failures, they'll go to the graveyard. If they're not, they could be reincarnated... but if they're great succeses, those souls become free-roaming spirits that are allowed to drift off into the multiverse to go wherever they want to learn whatever they want and do whatever they want.
To follow up on James' take on this, I think the important thing to note is that the major DIFFERENCE regarding Atheists is that after death, their Soul is not sent to the 'Aligned' Planes. Also, I don't believe you actually have to be an ardent follower of a specific God (or Pantheon of Gods) in order to be sent to those Aligned Planes... 'Golarion Atheism' for this purpose really is less about your attitude/beliefs of Gods PER SE, but rather yor opinion/attitude about Souls, and your own Soul in particular. To that end, I'm actually curious what happens to true worshippers of Groetus...?
I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.
As well, remember that it is broadly accepted that Aroden is dead. That means that 'Gods' AREN'T immortal, so logically are just another set of intelligent beings... PERHAPS they are akin to Outsiders, whose Souls are not distinct from their form, and thus don't Resurrect on other Planes when they die (like normal Material Plane characters do), although I don't think it's really clear what the actual status is of Gods in Golarion's Universe... Maybe Aroden WAS just Resurrected somewhere.
More broadly, it also seems possible for an 'Atheist' to believe that Clerics, etc, ARE somehow channeling their powers from a Universal 'Divinity', but that Gods aren't really having much to do with it, even if it seems so to the Clerics (possibly to the extent that the Atheist does believe their IS a conscious being that Clerics may communicate with, e.g. through spells answering questions). In the Golarion universe, besides Gods themselves, forces such as Positive and Negative Energy clearly seem to have their own reality well apart from the Gods... Golarion's Sun is a nexus of Positive Energy for example. Positive/Negative Energy, Alignments like Good/Evil/Law/Chaos can be seen as indepent Universal 'Laws'/Forces that don't depend on the Gods, and one could plausibly even see the Domains and Divine Magic as also being 'actually' distinct from the Gods... Oracles are definitely a factor here, since the source of their powers is pretty vague, and Oracles themselves can be Atheist while continuing to use all their powers and spells.
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.
I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.
That's misotheism not atheism.
Atheism is defined by a strict disbelief in any divine being. If your 'atheist' acknowledges the existence of the divine, then he is by definition not an atheist.
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It all depends on what the definition of God is to the atheist. Gods in D&D are just extremely powerful entities, but lack the fun omni-traits like omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc.
If I made a sort of atheist character he'd be a magic user of some sort under the hypothesis that the planar landscapes and creatures and beings called Gods were created bottom up and not top down. If everyone manipulates magic subconsciously and enough got a unified idea of what an extraplanar person place or thing was like, they would conjure it into existence. Gods and devils and such exist because of the belief they do and the mind weaves the ambient magic of this plane to make it so. Sure, the wizard with his conscious control over magic can rain fiery death down, but the peasant farm-hand is the most dangerous magic user of all for he creates landscapes in other realms filled with the stuff of his nightmares, things that sometimes make it to the material plane.
Wow that would be a fun paladin to play, one who intends to destroy every evil outsider in existence by convincing people forge different, more noble, beliefs about the cosmos. Not that his hypothesis would be correct of course, but delusional characters are fun.
Note, he used the phrase 'Golarion atheist', not 'atheist'.
As re-iterated by James Jacobs, Atheism in Golarion doesn't really correspond the to same thing in the real world.
Just like 'Attack action' means a very specific thing in the game, distinct from what you might assume from general English usage.
Also note, your definition of Atheism (i.e. the standard real-world one) still depends on the definition of 'divine being'. Given that we don't actually know the real qualities of Gods in Golarion (i.e. even if we do believe in them, in-game-world), we can't really say what Gods ARE in the first place, i.e. concretely define what 'divine being' IS.
EDIT: As per Asterclement's post, Golarion Gods clearly fail to exhibit multiple traits ascribed to 'real world' Gods, thus continuing to depend on real-world definitions of Atheism seems to be a lost cause... Even Golarion Clerics would probably be Atheists by the real-world defintions, if they deny real-world definition of God-hood to their own (and other) Deities.
It all depends on what the definition of God is to the atheist. Gods in D&D are just extremely powerful entities, but lack the fun omni-traits like omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc.
If I made a sort of atheist character he'd be a magic user of some sort under the hypothesis that the planar landscapes and creatures and beings called Gods were created bottom up and not top down. If everyone manipulates magic subconsciously and enough got a unified idea of what an extraplanar person place or thing was like, they would conjure it into existence. Gods and devils and such exist because of the belief they do and the mind weaves the ambient magic of this plane to make it so. Sure, the wizard with his conscious control over magic can rain fiery death down, but the peasant farm-hand is the most dangerous magic user of all for he creates landscapes in other realms filled with the stuff of his nightmares, things that sometimes make it to the material plane.
Wow that would be a fun paladin to play, one who intends to destroy every evil outsider in existence by convincing people forge different, more noble, beliefs about the cosmos. Not that his hypothesis would be correct of course, but delusional characters are fun.
I think you would love planescape
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.That's misotheism not atheism.
Atheism is defined by a strict disbelief in any divine being. If your 'atheist' acknowledges the existence of the divine, then he is by definition not an atheist.
He might not believe it's divine. Those "gods" may give belief based powers, but that doesn't mean they actually are "divine" and worthy of worship.
I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.
I think I remember reading this in the Carrion Crown's very detailed section on Pharasma.
It's impossible to deny that the gods exist in Golarion when divine intervention happens on a day-to-day and extremely casual basis (ie. Clerics and Oracles getting their spells for the day), so the atheists of Golarion believe that the gods don't deserve to be worshiped.
Incidentally, this is a major part of Ezren's (the iconic Wizard) character, as he lost faith and respect on the gods of Golarion and has since gone atheist.
I had an idea for a character that believed all of the gods were powerful once-mortal entities that through some means ascended their mortal forms through a process that tied them to a particular plane. He is a scientist minded chap that believed that this process could be replicated and planned on making himself a god. Not for power or prestige, but because he wanted to prove it was possible.
Now, this does not make him an atheist by any stretch because he fully believes the "gods" exist but not in the "all powerful master of my domain, created by the ether to embody an ideal" sort of way. He believes that what is now Otheron, the Mighty God of Whatsawhosit was once, many years ago Fred the bumbling first year student at the mage academy.
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.That's misotheism not atheism.
Atheism is defined by a strict disbelief in any divine being. If your 'atheist' acknowledges the existence of the divine, then he is by definition not an atheist.
As stated before, read my entire post as I mention that atheism would have to be different in such a fantasy setting. I'd rather not have to explain myself again.
One bumbling wastrel already became a god.
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*real-world atheist talking*
If he wants to play a character who denies the existence of the PF gods who actively involve themselves in mortal affairs and occasionally visit, he's going to be playing a character who is in willed denial of observed phenomena and calling it an atheist. Now, I can't control what you do at your table, but I would find that incredibly offensive, since it echoes a real-world view held by some religious folk that atheists are just "too blind to see God around them" (whatever that means).
If there's anyone at the table who is an atheist in real life, at least check with them before allowing that character into my game. I wouldn't allow that character in any more than I would allow someone to play a black character with an int of 4 or a gay character with a str of 6 who whines when he gets hit. Offensive stereotypes are offensive, and nobody should be having real-world feelings hurt over this game.
That said, if he just wants to play an atheist but has no idea how to make that concept work, I'd suggest following: "Gods and us are wrought from the same stuff, they're just more powerful. I see no reason to worship a being that is every bit as fallible as I am. Fear, yes. Respect, maybe. But worship? Not unless they can prove to me that they're somehow different from the most powerful mortals."
You're basically taking away the divinity of "gods" with that ideology, which is as close to real-world atheism as you're going to get in Golarion.
If he wants to play a character who denies the existence of the PF gods who actively involve themselves in mortal affairs and occasionally visit
Well, what specific interactions have the pathfinder gods had with humanity? Aroden is said to have raised the starstone from the sea, but even according to legend he did that while still a mortal wizard. There's very little a god can do that an epic or near epic level spellcaster can't.
Well, what specific interactions have the pathfinder gods had with humanity? Aroden is said to have raised the starstone from the sea, but even according to legend he did that while still a mortal wizard. There's very little a god can do that an epic or near epic level spellcaster can't.
Unless I'm mistaken, angels and the like come from time to time without being called by a cleric. That constitutes involvement, imo. Though I admit that I'm not completely up to cannon; I usually play homebrew settings.
I personally feel that the Gods of Golarian are like the Daedra and Aedra of the Elder scrolls series, extra planar beings that ended up being worshipped as gods.
Also, the OmniX definition of divine beings in today's world only applies to the monotheistic religions. A god does not have to be omnipotent, omnipresent, or anything else like that to be a god, even in the modern world. Looking back at the grecco-roman gods as well as the norse gods, none of them were omnipotent or omnipresent. Yes Zeus could see all of Greece from olympus, but only when he was looking. Also gods do not have to be immortal either. They may live on forever if they are not killed, but if they are in fact killed by the hand of another, they can die. Much like elves in LotR, not truly immortal, but will live on until they are killed.
The real difference i think fluff wise between divine and arcane magic is that arcane magic feeds upon the material plane while divine magic truly does come from other planes. Which is why arcane magic is much harder to control than divine magic. Arcane spellcasters have to draw the power of their magic into their bodies and then expel it on their own, while divine casters recieve their energy from another, more powerful being.
This is why there is spell failure for arcane spells while wearing armor, but not for divine spells.
A true, real world athiest, i believe is not possible, because in the world of Golarian, anyone can become a "god." One of the gods is even an ascended mortal. However a deist, or an agnostic is possible, hell you can even have a character that outright says "these gods are nothing but charlatans" as was said in previous posts, however it is still flat out impossible to deny their existance or "divinity" as they have proven what they can do. Whether or not they are just really powerful outsiders, or something more, is a moot point. Its not like Faerun where the gods do exist, but only because they are worshipped. Or at least thats what i'm hoping lol.
Unless I'm mistaken, angels and the like come from time to time without being called by a cleric. That constitutes involvement, imo. Though I admit that I'm not completely up to cannon; I usually play homebrew settings.
Well, what specific interactions have the pathfinder gods had with humanity? Aroden is said to have raised the starstone from the sea, but even according to legend he did that while still a mortal wizard. There's very little a god can do that an epic or near epic level spellcaster can't.
The angel can fly, cast spells, never age, not breathe, eat, or sleep. What would prevent it from coming into the material plane on its own power?
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Athiesm in a D&D setting makes PERFECT sense! There is not ONE diety that is A Diety. There are just a bunch of people with more power than Humans. And heck, elves can see in the dark. Does that make them Gods? No. So why should it be any more Godlike if they can do even greater stuff. And well, every God that got to high and mighty in D&D has ended up DEAD. Hardly a DIETY then, eh?
I would LOVE to play a Monte Python esq Doubter in a D&D campaign. True Nuetral! Or CN (totally insane by most people's standards).
I would say it was VERY EASY - and it would have great humor effect; Imagine a guy discussing with a God how a God is not a God but just some made up fictional character idea that he doesn't believe is all that superior anyway, and who is it that he thinks he is with his throwing lightning around at innocent villagers who have done him no wrong anyway?
And besides, he's seen some extraplanar dimensions where most humans have started worshippin a dead man for a few parlor tricks (water to wine? Calms seas? Easy spells for most D&D wizards) and a simple ressurection spell any high level cleric can do. So who is to say what constitutes a real god anyway?
Yes, it could be very fun indeed... (I play a devil's advocate on TV)
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*real-world atheist talking*
If he wants to play a character who denies the existence of the PF gods who actively involve themselves in mortal affairs and occasionally visit, he's going to be playing a character who is in willed denial of observed phenomena and calling it an atheist. Now, I can't control what you do at your table, but I would find that incredibly offensive, since it echoes a real-world view held by some religious folk that atheists are just "too blind to see God around them" (whatever that means).
If there's anyone at the table who is an atheist in real life, at least check with them before allowing that character into my game. I wouldn't allow that character in any more than I would allow someone to play a black character with an int of 4 or a gay character with a str of 6 who whines when he gets hit. Offensive stereotypes are offensive, and nobody should be having real-world feelings hurt over this game.
That said, if he just wants to play an atheist but has no idea how to make that concept work, I'd suggest following: "Gods and us are wrought from the same stuff, they're just more powerful. I see no reason to worship a being that is every bit as fallible as I am. Fear, yes. Respect, maybe. But worship? Not unless they can prove to me that they're somehow different from the most powerful mortals."
You're basically taking away the divinity of "gods" with that ideology, which is as close to real-world atheism as you're going to get in Golarion.
I find it offensive that you compare your manner of thinking with people's skin color and sexual orientation... not the same things at all. You obviously came to your conclusions based on education and eventual understanding of the universe you observe. A person's skin is something they are born with, not learned. And most would argue the same about their sexual orientation(though some do decide rather than be induced by genetics).
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.I was under the impression that a Golarion atheist believes that powerful creatures that call themselves "gods", do in fact exist, but that the atheist simply doesn't believe that they are worthy of worship.That's misotheism not atheism.
Atheism is defined by a strict disbelief in any divine being. If your 'atheist' acknowledges the existence of the divine, then he is by definition not an atheist.
What do you mean by "strict disbelief"? Atheism is the lack of belief in deities. Positive atheism is the belief that no deities exist.
If you call yourself god, and I reject that you are a god but still believe you exist, I'm not a theist believer in the CommandoGod. Likewise, Iomedae might call herself a god, and her followers might, but if I say "nope, Iomedae isn't a god, she's just a powerful person just like a dragon. She exists, but she's no god!" that doesn't mean I have theist faith in her.
EDIT: On "frakk the gods", that I agree is not atheism.
Not many people have the power to confirm the believe in gods, and ofcourse even if they do exist what makes them gods ?
The fact that mortals have become some of the most powerful gods might be enough reason to deny calling the gods such and claim that instead mortals hold the true power and give life to the 'gods' rather than the other way around, not a far fetched assumption by any stretch.
Not many people have the power to confirm the believe in gods, and ofcourse even if they do exist what makes them gods ?
The fact that mortals have become some of the most powerful gods might be enough reason to deny calling the gods such and claim that instead mortals hold the true power and give life to the 'gods' rather than the other way around, not a far fetched assumption by any stretch.
Ofcourse if you do not believe in gods in PF you should presumably state what gods are to you.
I'm on the side of those saying that it is absolutely possible to be an atheist in a world where evidence of the gods is plain in sight. It's even possible that there ARE no gods, and that there are other explanations for clerical powers, sights of the gods, etc.
I remember being intrigued by a 3rd Edition GURPS book that suggested a GM can make a fantasy world in which clerics suffer delusions that their powers come from the gods, when in fact, those powers come from the clerics themselves. Even in a world like Golarion, how do you know that a cleric's powers have anything to do with some extraplanar being that visited many years ago?
Moving a bit off the topic of RPGs, how about DC Comics? Mr. Terrific, a genius in the sciences, is an unrepentant atheist. He's seen that souls in the afterlife can come into the earthly realm, sometimes as personifications of the wrath of God, and whatnot. But Mr. Terrific still asks "Is it all just a metahuman light show?"
Oh, also, you might want to read about the Planescape faction the Athar. Now, planescape has a lot of "weird" stuff going on, but it's still interesting to compare it. link
Basically, they're mostly agnostic atheists that believe that the "powers" as they call them aren't gods at all, just impostors. They don't claim that there can't be any gods - just that we don't know and can't know anything about those things right now.
There are no gods with full omnipotence, just really powerful entities that people call gods. But hey, goblins worship really big ogres or monsters sometimes, but are they gods? No. Also, these "gods" do "divine" magic, and benefit from worship that increases their magic, but that just makes these so-called "gods" the ultimate parasites.
And even if we find an omnipotent being that is more powerful than everything else, made the universe, and doesnt need worship other than supreme jealousy, is it really "divine" or merely "first"? And if it is all powerful but treats the rest of the universe as a plaything, it doesnt have the moral standing to deserve worship. In fact, the only "gods" that are worthy of worship dont want it and wouldnt accept it. So really, there *cant* be any gods in that sense.
And there you have your atheism in a universe with "gods". :)
You don't even have to say there *can't* be any gods. It's enough to say that there are no gods that you have faith in right now. I'm an atheist in real life, and I still say there technically _can_ be a god and should I discover that god I would believe in it - but right now there is no god that I believe in, thus, I'm not a theist, thus I'm atheist.
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Yeah, but then you get into Ignosticism and such, where even discussing the statement "god exists" is pointless since the definition of what constitutes a god is not well defined.
Also, I am not so much an empirical agnostic as I am a strict/strong one. So the question of "god" isnt merely unknown. It is unknowable. Even if it ascends from the depths riding on its hovercraft filled with eels. Anyway, if you find yourself dead and in heaven or hell, is it the god you expected, or are you in the Matrix (Doctor Who version or Keannu version)??? In strong/strict agnosticism, it is understood that we can only verify an experience by use of other subjective experiences.
I view this as more than mere solipsism. I feel comfortable saying that I am typing on my mobile, all assumptions about the senses being accepted. But if I were teleported from here to pluto faster than light could travel, or if I die and awake at the feet of Osiris, my trust level in my senses is altered.
The very kind of experience / evidence required to prove "god" umdermines the very trust in experience itself. You might merely be in a coma at that point.
Anyway, I am just rambling. But you can certainly be an atheist, even while having tea with Zeus in another solar system. Either because you dont give credence to your senses, or because the entity across the table, while impressive, doesnt meet your definition of what constitutes a god. Kinda like how Captain America doesnt view Thor as a god. "There's only one god, ma'am." He may die, wake in Valhalla, but know in his heart that Jesus is gonna show up any decade now. We may die, end up in a lake of fire while Jesus is showing off his stamp collection to the in-crowd in Heaven, and we might still be expecting Quetzalcoatl to show up and take us away from all this. Or you can view him as a cruel sycophantic misanthrope with ultimate power but certainly not a god.
Point is, you can easily justify atheism in Golarion, since a subset of the various types of agnosticism would apply, even while chatting with a god, and agnosticism is always a good justification for atheism.
Anyway, again, just rambling. :)
I'm really enjoying this thread. Forget about Golarion. I'm imagining an atheist in the real world making a speech.
"You say you have faith in God, but do you really? Or are you just getting frightened by a bunch of preachers chanting about the fires of Hell, so you go to Church just in case? I say that there is no God and no afterlife, so if I'm wrong, then I burn for eternity. And that, my friend, is real faith!"
(Of course, technically, the existence of God / gods and the existence of an afterlife are entirely different matters.)
It also depends on how you model your world. I play gods in my world a little different from the standard fantasy setting. I actually model things off how the catholic church operated during the middle ages. As a side effect, this actually makes it a lot easier to be an atheist.
In my homebrew world, it requires faith to make divine magic go, and people of faith are pretty rare. Organized churches are mostly made up of non-clerics(bards, adepts, alchemists, etc). They believe, but that don't have the faith it takes to put their butt on the line for their beliefs. Often they feel they are doing the right thing by pretending to work healing in the name of their god, but in reality a lot of them are just attached to the perks of office.
The few actual true believers are usually out in the field following the will of their god. When an actual cleric, paladin, or oracle shows up, they usually cause headaches for the organized church(Think Martin Luther, Joan of Arc, etc). There is usually going to be a huge clash between the guys with cushy desk jobs who just want to keep the peasants happy(and thus the donations coming in), and the true believers who are willing to walk through fire because they believe their god will protect them. This opens up all kinds of possibilities for schisms and splits.
The average peasant doesn't know spellcraft and can't tell an arcane cure light wounds from divine one. The smarter and more educated nobility are in on the scam, but they keep quiet because the organized religion keeps the masses in line and helps keep the nobility in power. This actually models how things were for the catholic church during the middle ages.
Since actual man and women of faith are pretty rare. It is possible to go your entire life without actually meeting one. Thus, you can easily go your entire life without seeing divine magic. From there it is not hard to reach the belief that the Gods don't really exists, they are just a scam to keep the masses in line. This belief would probably be fairly common among the more educated elite. A little education(a few ranks of spellcraft) could make you lose faith that the gods even exist. While a lot of education could make you believe again(a high level wizard would actually be able to contact the gods directly).
To the OP, I believe you would need to clarify with your player what exactly the character believes.
Gods exist. I refuse to worship any of them.
Supernatural beings exist. They fail to meet the definition of ‘god’.
Supernatural beings do not exist. There is a scientific explanation for everything even if we do not know it yet.
Supernatural beings do not exist. Reports of their existence are false.
It would depend, as some have already said, on the definition of 'gods'. For instance, one viewpoint could be that since it IS possible for mortals to ascend to godhood, who's to say that all gods weren't once mortals? And if that's the case, why call them gods at all, instead of particularly powerful mortals, who don't age? For instance, the monk class in pathfinder's capstone ability is to stop aging. They don't die naturally. I think Alchemists can also get something like that. So what's the difference between a level 20 Monk and a god? People worship the god, but probably don't worship the monk. That, and it's unlikely that a monk could take a god on in a one on one fight... but even that's not necessarily true. Just my two cents.
A interesting angle could be that the player sees the gods as a power or an advanced civilization that are not worthy of worship. I'm thinking more in line with Dan Simmons two part series Olympos and Illyim. A series where the battle for Troy became an assult on the gods.
BTW a fantastic series.
I've played atheists in fantasy games. My character would give scientific reasoning for everything. To quote Arthur C Clarke. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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I find it offensive that you compare your manner of thinking with people's skin color and sexual orientation... not the same things at all. You obviously came to your conclusions based on education and eventual understanding of the universe you observe. A person's skin is something they are born with, not learned. And most would argue the same about their sexual orientation(though some do decide rather than be induced by genetics).*real-world atheist talking*
If he wants to play a character who denies the existence of the PF gods who actively involve themselves in mortal affairs and occasionally visit, he's going to be playing a character who is in willed denial of observed phenomena and calling it an atheist. Now, I can't control what you do at your table, but I would find that incredibly offensive, since it echoes a real-world view held by some religious folk that atheists are just "too blind to see God around them" (whatever that means).
If there's anyone at the table who is an atheist in real life, at least check with them before allowing that character into my game. I wouldn't allow that character in any more than I would allow someone to play a black character with an int of 4 or a gay character with a str of 6 who whines when he gets hit. Offensive stereotypes are offensive, and nobody should be having real-world feelings hurt over this game.
#$(%*#ing damn stupid, fracking laptop. I had a whole shpiel in response to this that was just deleted because instead of backspacing what I had written my palm was resting on the touchpad and it made me retreat a page in my Browser. ARRGH. I hate laptops!
ANYWAY, short version:
On the one hand, I don't think what the player is doing is necessarily offensive. It doesn't appear that he is doing it to intentionally make real-world analogues or set up a strawman atheist so he can drop his philosophical anvil. He just thinks that what his character would feel, and he wants to play it. It's no different from a character who follows Iomadae because she had a religious experience as a child.
On the other, if he did do that, it WOULD be offensive. It may not be inborn like race or sexual orientation (which is genetic and nobody chooses it,for the record. Sexuality is less black and white than we think, and society influences how willing we are to indulge our various urges. But you don't choose attraction.) but if I made an obvious strawman religious fundamentalist---Low INT score and hates anybody smarter than him, sexist, racist (both in the mundane and fantastic sense), paranoid delusional who thinks all advances in technology are some conspiracy to turn people from their faith in his god, and hates members of other faiths---it would be incredibly offensive. Especially if I made his god an obvious Yhvh stand-in. Because you would still be taking a broad philosophy (atheism or Christianity) and painting it with only the most negative strokes, dismissing everybody with a more nuanced view.
Wouldn't that be "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from divinity" in such a setting? :)