Surprise round, flat-footedness and Uncanny Dodge


Rules Questions


When does flat-footedness end in the surprise round? When the opponent gets aware of me or when he acts?
I'm asking because I'm making a Rogue whose shtick is to make a full attack in the surprise round and I don't know if all his attacks will get Sneak damage or only the first.

Does Uncanny Dodge make you immune to surprise round flat-footedness?


A character is normally considered flat-footed until he acts in combat (which means no dex to AC, and cannot make AoO's).

So, technically, the target is flat-footed against your attack in the surprise round, and if you win initiative, also in round 1.

However -- You can't make a full attack in a surprise round, since a full attack is a full-round action, and you can only do a move or standard (or charge) in a surprise round.

And yes, uncanny dodge makes it so that you cannot be caught flat-footed - not even in a surprise round by an invisible attacker.


Flat footed ends when the combatant's first turn begins.

Uncanny dodge allows you to keep your dex bonus when flat footed, if I recall correctly.


ImperatorK wrote:
When does flat-footedness end in the surprise round?

Flat-Footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat."

ImperatorK wrote:
When the opponent gets aware of me or when he acts?

The Surprise Round: "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."

ImperatorK wrote:
Does Uncanny Dodge make you immune to surprise round flat-footedness?

(Rogue) Uncanny Dodge (Ex): "Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her."


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Flat footed ends when the combatant's first turn begins.

This, even if they elect to 'delay' they are no longer flat-footed.

And Paizo has introduced via the look out feat a way to get full attacks during a surprise round.

-James


Quote:
However -- You can't make a full attack in a surprise round, since a full attack is a full-round action, and you can only do a move or standard (or charge) in a surprise round.

This Rogue can make full attacks as standard action.


While not flat footed, does surprise at least deny the target their dex bonus?

I am presently sneaking up on a quickling with a level 2 char and that 20 ac is daunting... but 13 ac without dex bonus looks a lot safer to try taking a shot at.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shinoskay wrote:

While not flat footed, does surprise at least deny the target their dex bonus?

I am presently sneaking up on a quickling with a level 2 char and that 20 ac is daunting... but 13 ac without dex bonus looks a lot safer to try taking a shot at.

No, the surprise round isn't what denies their Dex bonus; it is flat-footedness. The surprise round makes it MORE likely they are denied Dex bonus(and possibly two of your turns being denied Dex bonus), but doesn't grant denial of Dex bonus.


If they are aware of you, you still have until they act. So winning initiative (not an easy task in this case) is still your best bet. After that, feinting.


Cavall, that doesnt help against a quickling.


Why not?


blahpers wrote:
Why not?

Maybe referring to their uncanny dodge and my stating win initiative? I did go one to talk about feints though so...

Yeah why not?


Ah, missed that they have uncanny dodge--for some reason I always look at the feats section for that even though it obviously isn't one.


Reminds me of the absolute worst (*cough* best) set of guards I ever ran into albeit way back in AD&D times.

1 Stone Giant (a really big brute, i.e. not going to KO in one shot)
1 Quickling (Insane MV rate, Spd was 96" iirc)
1 Ice Devil (never surprised plus teleport)

Talk about friggin hard to deal with without the alarm getting out to the general population. An extremely high level party (for 2E) ended up using Power Word Kill to stop the Quickling (all 2 HD or so of creature).


Tilnar wrote:

However -- You can't make a full attack in a surprise round, since a full attack is a full-round action, and you can only do a move or standard (or charge) in a surprise round.

Just pointing out there are feats that allow you to make a full round action during a surprise round.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Surprise round, flat-footedness and Uncanny Dodge All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions