Hi,
I just want to share my concern about having another MMO out there which is trying to be different from WoW but essentially remains the same.
I think we have enough MMOs out there already. If you really want to attract tabletop gamers why not create a game where I can tell my stories to my players. Or any other players that are online.
The server is just providing the environment, game rules, and graphics, that make the DM's job easy. I would like to have tools that help me create a dungeon or NPC or whatever in a few seconds. I would also like to have the ability to create dialogs for my NPC-s or just jump in and do the dialog myself.
If I create a good adventure it can be reused by other DM's and players. If it's fully automatic (eg all dialogs and events are precreated) then you may not need a DM at all.
If the whole thing is set up in a persistent world with some ratings for adventures then DMs and players can choose to go on adventures they like. It can create a strong self supporting community.
You can provide precreated enviroments to help the future DMs, and you can also add "official" adventures dynamically to the system.
This is a completely different approach to online RPGs then anything that is available now. Neverwinter Nights tried to pull of something similar, but the lack of good tools and bad scripting engine killed the fun of writing an adventure for it.
What do you think?
Goblin Squad Member
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I think there's a great market out there for the kind of product you describe, but as a programmer with 20+ years of experience, and as a gamer who's diving into the weeds of MapTool, I can attest that the product you describe is not at all simple.
The key challenge is automating enough of the DM's job that they find the tool useful, but without restricting them so much that they can't tell the story they want to tell. And then add in the fact that the tool has to be simple enough that a relatively non-technical DM can make it work.
In the meantime, a fantasy sandbox MMO sounds pretty cool :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully the modules work out how they are partially described. I love the sandbox MMO they are making, but I also wouldn't mind heading into an instanced world for abit to do some very theme-park styled gaming, just for fun.
They have said that they would like to make the tools so that people can create their own modules, but once again as Nihimon said, its hard to get the tools both easy enough and in-depth enough.
As another programmer with 15 years of experience, I agree with Nihimon. At the end of the day if a player is to create the type of content you describe they have to be able to program themselves. If you let them program themselves, and put the code in your game, you are giving them the power to break your game, damage performance, or write unbalanced content.
The alternative to making someone program is GUI tools that write the code for you, but are so complex they are actually much more difficult to learn (and much more limited) than the type of scripting and 3d mapping you'd need to make a module in say, the single player NwN. Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2) is about as close as we've come to what you described, but creation there definitely had a technical component to it that limited the number of creators making "quality" content.
If Goblinworks was willing to dedicate some members of the staff to thoroughly reviewing content submissions and setting up a process for that, we might be able to see player created content.
eg. Content Creation Tool --> Test Server --> Peer Review Approval --> Employee Review --> Live
I think there's a great market out there for the kind of product you describe, but as a programmer with 20+ years of experience, and as a gamer who's diving into the weeds of MapTool, I can attest that the product you describe is not at all simple.
The key challenge is automating enough of the DM's job that they find the tool useful, but without restricting them so much that they can't tell the story they want to tell. And then add in the fact that the tool has to be simple enough that a relatively non-technical DM can make it work.
In the meantime, a fantasy sandbox MMO sounds pretty cool :)
The funny thing is that I'm also a programmer with 12 years work experience. :) And I partly agree with you about having to code something if you want a fully automated module. But there are two things:
1. You don't have to fully automate your adventure. You can jump in and manage it by hand. Typically for dialogs and some AI behaviour.2. There are certain types of adventures (dungeon crawling) that doesn't really need heavy scripting.
Imagine the following features:
Create NPC -> Fighter level 3.
And the NPC is created in full detail with all possible other parameters choosen randomly (and appropriately for a fighter). I should have to power to change things but if you don't want you can use it as is.
You can add it to a faction. And it will behave accordingly. If the faction is hostile it will attack the PC-s.
You can set up a patrol route for him with just a few clicks.
You can create a tile based dungeon, and just need to select a theme for it and the program will automatically put props and design elements accordingly.
Or I just click on a tile.
Add Trap -> Cr6
A random trap is created. I can modify it and change it from mechanical to magical, etc... But if I don't want I can use it right away.
Some basic programing is also possible with adding triggers:
Place based trigger.
Time based trigger.
Event based trigger.
What happens when a trigger is activated:
Everything I can change in a dungeon can happen on a trigger action. It's like executing a change transaction log.
Dialogs. I click on an NPC and type a possible dialog option for the PC-s. Then record my own voice or type in the answer. Creating fully bloated dialog trees is tiresome, but hey if you plan to reuse the adventure several times you might just do that.
Of course you should have an option for scripting AI behaviour in a popular scripting language like Lua or Python. But there should be basic stances for NPC-s which are pre programmed and created that you can use. Like: Searching for PC-s, Random Wandering, Guarding, following etc...
I think if you put all these together you can have a quite decent tool that you can use to create the environment really fast. The story itself is still problematic to create and of course if you require special AI behavior you can either do it by hand, or write a complicated script.
But this will mean that there will be a few Adventures out there that can be played without a DM. Mostly the "official" ones and some fan made.
There will be lots of adv. that you need a DM to play. But hey they are mostly created in advance, and you as a DM can just jump in and play an adventure that someone else created. Hopefully they also filled in the background story and the comments section for NPCs and objects that needs to be controlled.
If you add an adventure "like" system and a scoreboard it will automatically filter out the bad adventures and make sure that there are top adventures ready to be played by the players.
Do you still think it's too difficult to code?
Brain
The alternative to making someone program is GUI tools that write the code for you, but are so complex they are actually much more difficult to learn (and much more limited) than the type of scripting and 3d mapping you'd need to make a module in say, the single player NwN. Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2) is about as close as we've come to what you described, but creation there definitely had a technical component to it that limited the number of creators making "quality" content.
As I said NwN is a really good example that shows how can you make it as bad as you can. I tried to create a simple adv. and I gave up when I had to write a script to simply move an NPC from point A to point B then off the map.
It looks like that the whole NwN toolset was designed by programmers for programmers. Userfriendliness was not among the requirements.
You're thinking maybe something like this?
http://kck.st/KLrAuE
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Goblin Squad Member
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As another programmer with 15 years of experience, I agree with Nihimon. At the end of the day if a player is to create the type of content you describe they have to be able to program themselves. If you let them program themselves, and put the code in your game, you are giving them the power to break your game, damage performance, or write unbalanced content.
I've said it before and I'll say it again lol. the problem is solved rather easilly by limiting not putting direct rewards in modules. Make the rewards reputation with factions for GM created modules, make the rewards chartered company rep for players (IE reputation within the chartered company, and for the chartered company, the company itself may set what if anything this does, could be discounts, could be an entery requirement etc...)
Any rewards for player created modules IMO should have to be inserted by the creator (IE the module itself adds no new wealth to the world).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having next to no programming experience, how difficult would it be to have an interface like say, Paintshop Pro superimposed on top of grids you can manipulate?
I think the main issue is user-friendliness. Why do I need to be worried about way points when I haven't even designed the zone? Why the hell should I have to hold shift+control if I want to change camera angles?
Wouldn't a creation wizard type interface be easier?
What type of zone?
-Open or closed.
What is the terrain type of the zone?
-Forest, Castle Interior, Cave.
Select texture.
Manipulate geography in a manner similar to SimCity, if modifications exceed the game mechanics, change the outlined tile from green to red.
Place enviromental items.
-Trees, furniture, boulders, statues.
Fine tune enviromental adjustments.
-Turn items, change size, color.
Fine tune mechanical adjustments.
-Select in play items. Does the door open or is it for decoration? What emotes are avaiable for the bar, chair, statue? Traps? Weather?
Zone Enviroment done.
Place AIs.
Select AI functions, abilities, equipment, droppable upon death items.
-Merchant, Monster, Plot NPC, or generic?
Set triggers.
-Timed, Movement, Event, Conversation.
Select AI and enviromental changes per trigger activation.
-Function change from neutral to hostile. Changing from night to day.
Create dialogue grouped to triggers per AI.
-Friendly conversation with no triggers active. Hostile conversation after temple desecration trigger is tripped.
Insert complex features and user created code.
-Rod activation transitions PCs to Zone 3 with the following triggers already activated and mechanical/enviroment changes applied. (Returning to a hideout after it has been raided).
Functional Enviroment done.
Zone function check.
-An automated diagnostic scan for loose ends. No result identified for a trigger, AI has no dialogue, duplicate functions with an interface to correct these without having to back-track.
Performance check.
-Generic PC created to interact and run through the scenerio without opening the game, load the module, creating a PC, etc.
Zone Linkage
-Zone A leads to Zone B and C. Zones A-G are part of Group 1-City; Zones H-K are Group 2-Forest... etc.
It sounds simple enough, but I know better. I think all that is needed is a proper interface and an thorough look at organization. How can we design a tool for a GM with no programming experience still be able to create a functioning causual module?
Given that the game mechanics are provided, is it not feasible that a company who is creating a high profile product could pull this off?
I'm just interested in learning from the programmer's perspective what prevents this from happening.
As far as tying this into PFO... originially I wanted something like this included, but I think that this would be best saved for a post PFO project. PFO being successful and GWs creating a track record would generate enough interest to make this possible. No need to focus on a long campaign and story line. Game engine and module creation program. Then Paizo could sell the same material they are publishing monthly on a platform that is more friendly to those of us with limited playing time. I hate to say it, but in between work and home, there is no time to get in a decent 6 to 8 hour table top game session.
Just my two coppers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As another programmer with 15 years of experience, I agree with Nihimon. At the end of the day if a player is to create the type of content you describe they have to be able to program themselves. If you let them program themselves, and put the code in your game, you are giving them the power to break your game, damage performance, or write unbalanced content.
I've said it before and I'll say it again lol. the problem is solved rather easilly by limiting not putting direct rewards in modules. Make the rewards reputation with factions for GM created modules, make the rewards chartered company rep for players (IE reputation within the chartered company, and for the chartered company, the company itself may set what if anything this does, could be discounts, could be an entery requirement etc...)
Any rewards for player created modules IMO should have to be inserted by the creator (IE the module itself adds no new wealth to the world).
Just all the more reason for this to be a seperate project. We are already talking about an MMO that has the potential to be revolutionary. Why try and complicate it with something else that hasn't been able to be accomplished yet?
I'm pretty sure open-sourcing MMO code = massive griefing + cancelled subscriptions. Some programming guru WotC loyalists would go ape shit if they got access to the code.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@OB, there's nothing wrong with the way you laid out that system. The thing you have to keep in mind is that every time you provide a list (Merchant,Monster,Plot NPC; etc) you're limiting the DM's options. That's fine, that's normally how you make things easy to use.
So, really, it's all about the trade-off between how easy it is to use versus how versatile it is. If it's not versatile enough to give DMs the freedom they need to tell their story, or if it's not easy enough for non-technical people to use, then it fails.
Take a look at MapTool. This is pretty much the gold standard in virtual tabletops for distributed RPG sessions. It took me about 8 hours on a Saturday just to figure out how to limit players to only be able to move their tokens on their turn during combat, and only be able to move them up to their movement limit. It took about another 6 hours of study and testing for me to come up with a pattern that lets me ensure that they can't just go in and give themselves more movement points during their turn so they can move further. And I have a lot of technical competence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon : How much versatility do we as gamers really need? I can't think of any situation I've ever had in game that wouldn't be covered with what I listed... maybe with some additions, but not a whole lot.
Army network has MapTool blocked. I think that level of complication is utterly ridiculous. If I'm going to learn how to program, it's gonna be for a job or a personal project... not to use a program I paid for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How much versatility do we as gamers really need?
Not a whole lot, but ask it differently: "How much versatility do we as Game Masters really need?"
Well, that's a different answer, and I can't even begin to think of things that wouldn't fit in your system - but I have enough real world experience in designing systems to know that the users would think of them, and quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are a few games with well developed tools. Bethesda does a good job of these, just look at the extensive player-made content available for Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I do not think it out of the realm of possibility for the developers to be able to create the toolset.
The system could have checks and balances against exploitation; limited loot, developer approval before release, etc...
However, all of that takes alot of time and resources, and I would prefer they concentrate more on the core game; because if the core game is not fun, no one will even want to use the toolset.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any system of content management always seems like its going to be easy as pie, but once the rubber hits the road and the technical considerations are married to the desire for options is when everything falls apart. And that's just for something as simple as an HTML interface, much less something as expansive as a scripted, open world, interactive, trap and event laden environmental structure filled with AIs.
The project as described so far reminds me more of a stand alone dev tool for gamers, than anything that could be combined with an MMO. At least for any kind of budget I expect GW to have.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There are a few games with well developed tools. Bethesda does a good job of these, just look at the extensive player-made content available for Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I do not think it out of the realm of possibility for the developers to be able to create the toolset.
The system could have checks and balances against exploitation; limited loot, developer approval before release, etc...
However, all of that takes alot of time and resources, and I would prefer they concentrate more on the core game; because if the core game is not fun, no one will even want to use the toolset.
Now try to create even the simplest content in any of those games, like a travelling merchant being attacked by monsters who calls for help and rewards the player if they kill the monsters. Don't even worry about making sure that the merchant won't ever defeat the monsters on his own and then pay the player for saving him, or making the monsters challenging but not overpowering, or about the player scaring off a monster but not killing it, but try to avoid the case where the player just talks to the merchant and completes the quest without saving him.
In tabletop, or human-attended play, only the edge case that occurs needs to be adjudicated, rather than all of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any system of content management always seems like its going to be easy as pie, but once the rubber hits the road and the technical considerations are married to the desire for options is when everything falls apart. And that's just for something as simple as an HTML interface, much less something as expansive as a scripted, open world, interactive, trap and event laden environmental structure filled with AIs.
The project as described so far reminds me more of a stand alone dev tool for gamers, than anything that could be combined with an MMO. At least for any kind of budget I expect GW to have.
As far as tying this into PFO... originially I wanted something like this included, but I think that this would be best saved for a post PFO project.
I agree.
You're thinking maybe something like this?
http://kck.st/KLrAuE
Not exactly what I had in mind, but this looks OK. This looks like a layer above what I said, but could work yes.
Is it PFO?
Brain
I chuckle when people make suggestions like this. And I suppose you think that there's going to be a Human like this available for whenever a player starts such a process?It's one thing to be a personal GM in a game of 4 people, 8 people, maybe 12. It's quite another to manage that in servers of hundreds of players.
No you misunderstood. This is a completly different game than an MMO. You go online to play this game with your team which already has a DM. Or try to join an open team which is looking for players or a DM. And most importantly: Its not about character building. If you let players write modules, they will write adventures that are just giving out a whole bunch of magic items and XP. If you want to prevent players from doing that, you can allow any level of character with any gear to be created.
I don't know how can you make an MMO that is not WoW if you don't change the fundamentals.
If you have these items in the game then it's still wow with minor tweaks
- Dieing is part of the game and has no real impact
- Mobs are brainless scripted automatons with the IQ of an ant
- You have missions like: Kill N monsters, Escort X to Z etc...
- Everything is about the gear. Everyone is a number junkie looking for gear with better numbers.
Brain
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is going to have me giggling for the rest of the night...As far as tying this into PFO... originially I wanted something like this included, but I think that this would be best saved for a post PFO project.I agree.
So didn't catch that. I was quoting myself to show Gruffling I had already stated the point he was trying to make.
However, I do tend to agree with myself... most of the time.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I chuckle when people make suggestions like this. And I suppose you think that there's going to be a Human like this available for whenever a player starts such a process?It's one thing to be a personal GM in a game of 4 people, 8 people, maybe 12. It's quite another to manage that in servers of hundreds of players.
No you misunderstood. This is a completly different game than an MMO. You go online to play this game with your team which already has a DM. Or try to join an open team which is looking for players or a DM. And most importantly: Its not about character building. If you let players write modules, they will write adventures that are just giving out a whole bunch of magic items and XP. If you want to prevent players from doing that, you can allow any level of character with any gear to be created.
I don't know how can you make an MMO that is not WoW if you don't change the fundamentals.
If you have these items in the game then it's still wow with minor tweaks
- Dieing is part of the game and has no real impact
- Mobs are brainless scripted automatons with the IQ of an ant
- You have missions like: Kill N monsters, Escort X to Z etc...
- Everything is about the gear. Everyone is a number junkie looking for gear with better numbers.Brain
So... EQ was WoW with minor tweaks? The major quests were typically along the lines of "Bring me an items which can only be obtained by killing a powerful creature and I will give you one of the items needed to get a piece of what might be able to be assembled into the item you want, which will make you radically more powerful."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know how can you make an MMO that is not WoW if you don't change the fundamentals.
If you have these items in the game then it's still wow with minor tweaks
- Dieing is part of the game and has no real impact
- Mobs are brainless scripted automatons with the IQ of an ant
- You have missions like: Kill N monsters, Escort X to Z etc...
- Everything is about the gear. Everyone is a number junkie looking for gear with better numbers.Brain
Death: you lose all items not equipped. There is an impact.
Mobs: all mobs are working on scripts. No one has a real AI working. All they can do is make the scripts more ornate.
Missions: there are none. Go kill it, loot it, sell the loot. Or craft. Or harvest. No quests that we are currently aware of.
Gear: Currently unknown. But with 2.5 years to top your class, I'm thinking skills matter.
Long story short: have you read the blog?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So... EQ was WoW with minor tweaks?
I chuckle when people make suggestions like this. And I suppose you think that there's going to be a Human like this available for whenever a player starts such a process?It's one thing to be a personal GM in a game of 4 people, 8 people, maybe 12. It's quite another to manage that in servers of hundreds of players.
No you misunderstood. This is a completly different game than an MMO. You go online to play this game with your team which already has a DM. Or try to join an open team which is looking for players or a DM. And most importantly: Its not about character building. If you let players write modules, they will write adventures that are just giving out a whole bunch of magic items and XP. If you want to prevent players from doing that, you can allow any level of character with any gear to be created.
I don't know how can you make an MMO that is not WoW if you don't change the fundamentals.
If you have these items in the game then it's still wow with minor tweaks
- Dieing is part of the game and has no real impact
- Mobs are brainless scripted automatons with the IQ of an ant
- You have missions like: Kill N monsters, Escort X to Z etc...
- Everything is about the gear. Everyone is a number junkie looking for gear with better numbers.Brain
EQ was released 99, EQ2 NOV 8 2004, WoW NOV 23 2004.
If anything, WoW is a more popular carbon copy of EQ2 since technically it was released before WoW. My point is EQ was released before WoW was developed. Check your facts, Brain... and yes, read the blog.
EQ was released 99, EQ2 NOV 8 2004, WoW NOV 23 2004.If anything, WoW is a more popular carbon copy of EQ2 since technically it was released before WoW. My point is EQ was released before WoW was developed. Check your facts, Brain... and yes, read the blog.
I know that EQ was the first, and WoW is the clone. But quite a successful one. Still your argument doesn't counter the fact that all fantasy MMOs are the clones. I said WoW, you said EQ. Lets have it your way.
Mobs: all mobs are working on scripts. No one has a real AI working. All they can do is make the scripts more ornate.
Nothing wrong with scripting. I mean the whole thing is gonna be written in programing language. But if you have mechanics like agro then you can't have smart monsters. I mean even the gods in EQ followed agro instead of taking out the crucial players among the attackers.
Anyway I should really gather enough time to read the blog...
I use to build maps in Heroes of Might & Magic (the equivalent of modding in that type of gaming), and I can tell you it can be done. They had a contest once, and none of my maps qualified because the file sizes were too huge - I built an RPG-heavy element into the game.
Now, if I was able to make that game feel like an RPG, then one designed specifically to do so should work fairly well. True, there is a steep learning curve (my programming skills were about 20 years rusty), but with a great scripting tool, some imagination, and working knowledge of Boolean logic it can be done, and done well.
True, at least 90% of the people will get frustrated by it (testing even a small scenario for glitches takes weeks), but if even 5-10% of the people stick with it, they will create enough internet content for the game for it to be viable. Many games use this paradigm, and have large modding communities. While it is true there will be a LOT of crap produced, there will be a few shining stars, and thats all you need. That will influence - and inspire - new talent to come to the fore.
Lots of guys in the industry today got their start by creating mods on their PCs - its one of the very few 'internet pastimes' that could have a 'treasure' at its end.
"If you build it, they will come"
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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EQ was released 99, EQ2 NOV 8 2004, WoW NOV 23 2004.If anything, WoW is a more popular carbon copy of EQ2 since technically it was released before WoW. My point is EQ was released before WoW was developed. Check your facts, Brain... and yes, read the blog.
I know that EQ was the first, and WoW is the clone. But quite a successful one. Still your argument doesn't counter the fact that all fantasy MMOs are the clones. I said WoW, you said EQ. Lets have it your way.
I don't think that UO is a clone of the MUDs, nor EQ a clone of UO, nor WoW a clone of EQ. Each introduced significant changes, even if they didn't take a radically different angle on the genre.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Mobs: all mobs are working on scripts. No one has a real AI working. All they can do is make the scripts more ornate.
Nothing wrong with scripting. I mean the whole thing is gonna be written in programing language. But if you have mechanics like agro then you can't have smart monsters. I mean even the gods in EQ followed agro instead of taking out the crucial players among the attackers.
Anyway I should really gather enough time to read the blog...
There needs to be some way of determining who is targeted. A mechanic like aggro is needed to determine who is targeted. When players learn how it is determined, they will alter their actions to manipulate who gets hit.
I think what you actually object to is an effective taunt.
There needs to be some way of determining who is targeted. A mechanic like aggro is needed to determine who is targeted. When players learn how it is determined, they will alter their actions to manipulate who gets hit.
I think what you actually object to is an effective taunt.
Yep spells and abilities that manipulate aggro directly are kind of mystic braking. Kiting and training is also stupid. Yes you should be able to trick a monster to follow you. For a while, and it may change its target for some easier pray.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There needs to be some way of determining who is targeted. A mechanic like aggro is needed to determine who is targeted. When players learn how it is determined, they will alter their actions to manipulate who gets hit.
I think what you actually object to is an effective taunt.
Yep spells and abilities that manipulate aggro directly are kind of mystic braking. Kiting and training is also stupid. Yes you should be able to trick a monster to follow you. For a while, and it may change its target for some easier pray.
Ideally, the script will include a check to see if the enemy it is chasing is both fleeing and faster, and give up such a chase early. Behavior for handling an enemy that is faster and has longer range either needs to be more complicated, or simply acknowledge that such an opponent will win, or both.