Starting Kingmaker (my players stay out)

[Vendis]

With summer coming, my group is losing a member for a few months, so we're taking a break from our current campaign (which is kinda a shame, because we're relatively close to finishing it). We've decided to run Kingmaker, with me as GM.

I'm asking for any advice anyone has for this. Do I need to brush up on any specific rules? Is there any need to read more than a book ahead? I have some experience running modules but never an AP.

Anything you guys have to offer is appreciated.

[Caius]

In general i would recommend reading through to to better thread the story as it's not as straightforward as other APs. One thing I see often is that the final foe isn't telegraphed well unless adjustments are made. In addition it can help you know which npc's may be more involved later on and flesh them out.

[Vendis]

So you think I ought to read all 6 ahead (or at least skim them)?

I just read the first part of the first book. Honestly, this whole thing is a lot to approach. I don't want to mess anything up.

[Snow Crash]

Agreed. I would read ahead just so you have an idea where it's all going to pan out. It's also nice to be able to give the player snippets of ideas about what maybe be coming up. Many times they will want to do things in what appears to be some dirt of random order due to the sandbox nature of this AP. My characters very quickly become overpowered by having too many magic items so i would consider toning back on the treasure the module award.

[Deadmanwalking]

Vendis wrote:

So you think I ought to read all 6 ahead (or at least skim them)?

Yes. You don't need to memorize stat-blocks or room orders or anything lie that, but you should read the whole thing in at least a cursory before running any of it, then go back and read part 1 in detail.

Vendis wrote:

I just read the first part of the first book. Honestly, this whole thing is a lot to approach. I don't want to mess anything up.

You'll probably do alright. I've not done Kingmaker, but the APs in general are really well put together, they honestly aren't notably harder to run than any other series of modules. Though in Kingmaker specifically, the kingdom building and mass-combat rules will definitely add some additional wrinkles.

[Mr. Quick]

once players get above lvl 7, the item creation feats REALLY start to hit their stride. scrolls, potions, forging rings, custom magic items...you name it. you know your players best, so you should have an idea of what they'll go for, just be aware that once they start building/developing cities you aren't playing a 'standard' game anymore...it's like with Rogue Trader from FFG - it's a game of SCALE and not pure number crunching. so plan accordingly.

[PJ]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Vendis wrote:

So you think I ought to read all 6 ahead (or at least skim them)?

Yes. You don't need to memorize stat-blocks or room orders or anything lie that, but you should read the whole thing in at least a cursory before running any of it, then go back and read part 1 in detail.

Vendis wrote:

I just read the first part of the first book. Honestly, this whole thing is a lot to approach. I don't want to mess anything up.

You'll probably do alright. I've not done Kingmaker, but the APs in general are really well put together, they honestly aren't notably harder to run than any other series of modules. Though in Kingmaker specifically, the kingdom building and mass-combat rules will definitely add some additional wrinkles.

Agreed, a little foreshadowing goes a long ways to make the path just that much better. Oh yea, read these boards there are so many cool ideas to add to KM.

[Mosaic]

I just posted yesterday about some of my thought on how I'd do things a little differently if I were to start over. Might be helpful. But, yes, I'd read ahead, just to know the meta-plot and the principals.

link

[Old Drake]

I have to agree with previous posters. Read the whole AP first. Make notes. At the end you should have your own summary of events that happen during the AP. And why something happens. It might be necessary to read the whole AP twice to get a full understanding of why some of the earlier events happen, as the explanations are not always given.
When doing that, don't get bogged down by minutia. Stat blocks, map locations, and such are not important, you're looking for the plot and how it's connected to the rest of the AP. Or lack of plot and connections, as the problem might be.

Then work those events in a story that includes your specific player characters. Their backgrounds, ambitions, and flaws.
Look at what your players like. Especially concerning kingdom management. If they like intrigue, strengthen the kingdom element, and have them engage in espionage and counter-espionage missions with the AP events as a background and distraction to the real thrust of the campaign.
If they like politics or diplomacy, focus on that area.

If on the other hand they don't like city management or politics, you might be in for a harder time.

Still, remember that the AP will span years and may take a decade. Ask your players to develop their characters, including things like things they desire for a partner. It's possible even likely that (at least some) characters will get married and have children. Have them develop character with that in mind from the beginning.
You'll also need a lot more NPCs that the AP provides. Friends and family of the player characters may be critical - when they found their kingdom, they'll need people to fill out important positions. The AP assumes they will trust total strangers that don't even desire to be part of the ruling Council. But if they have siblings, parents, uncles, aunts, best friends, and so on, they should have a lot of options to choose from.

The perhaps greatest problem is that the AP is lethal. If you have time, rpgmp3.com has a Kingmaker podcast on. I won't say the Strand Gamers loose a player every session, but they go through a lot of characters. That makes a lot of long term story telling difficult.
That is in part a limitation of this AP. Many encounters happen during exploration, where you'll usually have just one encounter a day. If the players can use all their resources in a single encounter, you'll need more lethal monsters to challenge them. And a crit can easily kill a character in those circumstances. You might therefore want to think about replacing most/all single-combat encounters and random encounters and just place a string of encounters at interesting places... you'd of course need to downgrade the monsters (giving a very different feel) or upgrade the party.
I'd say don't hesitate to add more content and treasure, if you think your group is in over their head or can't handle the encounter lethality. Or maybe have them recover an artifact early on that allows them to resurrect fallen comrades at a price...
Another option would be something I remember from my old AD&D days... a character pool. Every player makes multiple characters, and only chooses one for the current adventure; it helps keeping some cohesion even if players die. Early on they could stay as guards at Oleg's; later they'd manage the kingdom while the rest adventures.
You may prefer other methods, but give a thought of how you'll handle character death from the start.

Tell your players from the start that they'll need to make decisions of where to go. If they don't do something, it might box them in and leave them with no option later on or lacking critical pieces of information.
For example: Varnhold. The players may not even remember it exists, but if they were interested in diplomacy they'd have some relationship and trade with Varnhold, and some knowledge of the geography, population, politics, and so on. They'd go into the third part with a lot more understanding of the background; without it you may need to force feed them certain information for things to make any sense.

Without the players actively making choices and pressing certain ideas forward, they'll also find it hard to stay invested as the rules and layout doesn't offer any point where it forces the player to press certain ideas or reject them. They can and should do so at a time of their choice. Unlike computer RPGs and MMORPGs, there will be no prompt or multiple choice option; they are going to have to take the initiative. And I know that will be strange for many players, but tell them, and keep reminding them, especially once they have their kingdom.

I'd also modify the beginning a lot. Don't just start at Oleg's. I'd start in Restov with the players meeting with some nobles, meeting the other three groups send to the Stolen Lands, and getting the job. How they get the job and meet one another is never explained in the adventure, so you'll need to come up with something for your party. If for example one player is a bastard, it's pretty easy to have the father's family use their influence to get the embarrassment out of country... and if he succeeds, they can acknowledge him and increase family prestige.
Develop some background between the characters before the first session starts to avoid the uncomfortable you meet in a bar scene. It might have started in a bar - a bar fight maybe - several months ago, but now they should know each other to some degree at least. And for the adventure to make any sense, they should have reason for this group to leave and go on the expeditions, while none of their friends and family goes along.
You'll probably spend a session or so working out all this stuff, but (if your group cares about story) it's really worth it. Of course you might simply want to send them emails with all kinds of questions and ask them to send their answers back to you before the session starts. That can cut down on the time needed, but some stuff will need the whole group to work out.

[CRobledo]

I would brush up on mounted combat, as many of your players are bound to get into it eventually if not from the start

[Old Drake]

Right! That's what I forget. Mounted combat is one thing, but also read up on weather! Nothing is more boring than nice sunny weather every day for months.

The players will also have to cross rivers occasionally, and without appropriate skills, that can get problematic. Keep an eye out for that and read the swim/drowning rules.

Another area to consider is encounter distance. With a lot of encounters above ground, encounters may start at hundreds of feet. Look at rules for perception and stealth to see when the encounter begins. And be sure to look at range increments and the range of spells. And if a player plays a blind Oracle, be sure to think about how you handle that.

One aspect often forgotten is supplies. The party is wandering around often for weeks, so they need supplies for themselves and their mounts. And they need to transport those supplies. Be certain to keep track of what is transported how, because they might just sacrifice a mount now or then.

Players will probably use the track skill more often than in other campaigns, but it's not really uncommon.

[Mr. Quick]

old drake brings up an interesting point - modify the start of the AP. when I started this series, I modified the ending. the players were each scions of a noble family from Restov, but they were the 'black sheep' of the line. they'd each done something to earn themselves exile...but politically speaking, they couldn't be FORMALLY exiled. so they each got themselves a nice letter informing them that they were now given land grants in the Stolen Lands, given a bit of money and told to write their parents from time to time.

in brief - the group consists of the twincest wondertwins (infernal bloodline sorcerer and blight druid), a wizard necromancer with a clinical interest in cannibalism and a ranger who is the last living descendant of the vanished king of Brevoy.

the result was a very cohesive group of evil characters who have ended up doing the right things for their kingdom for all the WRONG reasons. it's made for a much more involved campaign, with the players being personally invested in developing their own storylines and side interests (the necromancer building her fleshwarping vats, for example). A bit of a kick at the start of the game went a long way towards really making my players invested in the game. their long term goal is STILL to eventually build a kingdom/empire strong enough to smash its way into Brevoy and seize the throne of their homeland.

[Biobeast]

Old Drake mentions this AP is lethal, my group who I admit are power gamers found this AP to be the easiest campaign they have ever played. We go back to playing many upon many campaigns all the way back to 1979 before the first DM Guide was printed. They struggled at 1st level, a little during the Varnhold vanishing, and in book 6. But besides that I had to upgun just about everything to make it tougher. I only had 4 players and sometimes only 3 and they still walked through the one a day encounters easily.

2 things made it easy for them; an Oracle with the sleep hex jacked the bad guys up until around 10th level, by that time they has so much time to craft stuff their equipment was out of line with what normal AP's have.

[Old Drake]

I didn't mean the AP was lethal as in TPK, but the Scythe Tree and a good number of other creatures could kill a character with a single attack. They aren't usually a threat to the total party, but a single character could easily end up dead.

Overall, I would agree that the chance of TPK is fairly low (unless you go with a random encounter of Will-o-wisp against a first level party). I didn't have any party deaths so far, but as I said, the podcasts I've heard of Kingmaker had a rather high death character turnover rate.

[PJ]

Biobeast wrote:

Old Drake mentions this AP is lethal, my group who I admit are power gamers found this AP to be the easiest campaign they have ever played. We go back to playing many upon many campaigns all the way back to 1979 before the first DM Guide was printed. They struggled at 1st level, a little during the Varnhold vanishing, and in book 6. But besides that I had to upgun just about everything to make it tougher. I only had 4 players and sometimes only 3 and they still walked through the one a day encounters easily.

2 things made it easy for them; an Oracle with the sleep hex jacked the bad guys up until around 10th level, by that time they has so much time to craft stuff their equipment was out of line with what normal AP's have.

Yeah, my group are power gamers so I've always had to adjust any thing I run.

[tonyz]

One thing to try, IF your players are inboard with it, is to make sure that each often cones from one of the Brevoy families and has some support from the. Then, if they die, they Canberra replaced by a new family member. It helps preserve continuity.

[PJ]

tonyz wrote:

One thing to try, IF your players are inboard with it, is to make sure that each often cones from one of the Brevoy families and has some support from the. Then, if they die, they Canberra replaced by a new family member. It helps preserve continuity.

actually my random encounters have been more deadly than the set piece encounters.

[Old Drake]

Indeed; I don't think it's been pointed out yet. Be careful with random encounters. There are some really harsh encounters possible; think about if the party can handle something, and if not try to use something other than a combat encounter.
For example instead of finding eight trolls the level four party may find a place where the underbrush is trashed. Successful survival and knowledge(nature) checks will reveal that a group of eight trolls fought with something of your choice. Or maybe they hear the trolls throwing a party and (after seeing that they're in above their head) can sneak away unseen.

[PJ]

Old Drake wrote:

Indeed; I don't think it's been pointed out yet. Be careful with random encounters. There are some really harsh encounters possible; think about if the party can handle something, and if not try to use something other than a combat encounter.

For example instead of finding eight trolls the level four party may find a place where the underbrush is trashed. Successful survival and knowledge(nature) checks will reveal that a group of eight trolls fought with something of your choice. Or maybe they hear the trolls throwing a party and (after seeing that they're in above their head) can sneak away unseen.

All of my pc deaths actually occurred due to random encounters but I planned them that way to keep my pcs on their toes. Sometimes they like to blow through all of their spells and think that it's ok. I teach them other wise.

[Mosaic]

Think about how you want to handle Mivon. It's directly south of the southernmost river on the map, a lot closer to the PCs than Pitax, actually. They want to negotiate boarders or at least trade relations. Plus, if PCs are looking for a "big" city to shop in, Mivon may be closer than Restov. Their capital is actually right at the southern tip of the big forest.

[PJ]

Mosaic wrote:

Think about how you want to handle Mivon. It's directly south of the southernmost river on the map, a lot closer to the PCs than Pitax, actually. They want to negotiate boarders or at least trade relations. Plus, if PCs are looking for a "big" city to shop in, Mivon may be closer than Restov. Their capital is actually right at the southern tip of the big forest.

I had to move Mivon just a little because of it.