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I know it seems like I'm hard on BW here, but it's not her fault, it's Whedon's.
I really liked what Whedon did with the Black Widow character.
Later,
Mazra
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Oh by "greatest" you mean "most successful". I guess Justin Bieber is one of the greatest musicians of all time.
Straw is on sale again, I see.
Sure I will admit that it was, but, for the sake of example, popularity and longevity are not always good indicators of quality. I never saw the show while it was the air. I had never heard of it. The same goes for Arrested Development. I discovered them later and found them refreshing. Many fans would say the same. Fox is really bad when it comes to promoting things.
Either way we are all entitled to our own opinions - even you to your wrong one.
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Either way we are all entitled to our own opinions - even you to your wrong one.
Win!
====================
As for Captain America, I think one of the problems is that the enemies they were facing were largely airborne. Cap isn't a highly mobile, or ranged combatant, he's all close quarters. I think Cap did exactly what he is, truthfully, best at. He is the conscience of the the Avengers and the moral sticking point they all rally around. In a lot of ways, Captain America is a Paladin. He fights for justice, freedom and all that is good and he does is duty no matter the cost to himself. He's a leader and an inspiration to all around him to just be a better man (or woman).
Also, I think this was were one of Cap's strengths really showed itself. Cap makes you want to be a better man, to really serve humanity just like he does. I have no doubt that Tony read up on Caps file and was aware that Cap never even hesitated to sacrifice himself to save thousands of people. When Cap called him out for not being a hero, I think it really affected him, and Tony tried to emulate Cap and his own sacrifice. Especially since he tried to call Pepper and tell her goodbye just like Cap did with Peggy.
There were scenes that showed this to good effect. Cap is always the first to act, to take up the fight. Nice work there. I would have liked for Cap to do something no-one else would consider, for the others to rally behind. For example ** spoiler omitted **
I think you missed entirely that...
On a different tack...
Some other things that I really enjoyed about the movie :
I like how Tony was actually the one who was approving of Banner, as a whole, not just as either Hulk or Dr. Banner. I honestly kind of feel like that would have been better coming from Cap though. But there was no reason for Cap to spend so much time with Banner, while Stark did, so it made more sense from an access point of view.
I think Hawkeye's first half of the movie actually made him a much stronger character. I've always thought of him as the weak link on the team, but by showing what he was capable of with when he has no concerns about hurting innocent bystanders, it really brought home just how dangerous he can be, even if he's only a human.
Some of my favorite scenes...
"My secret is... I'm always Angry..." <smile>
"Puny God!" <Snort>
<Long uncomfortable male bonding silence ending with sucker punch>
"Oh, so that's what it does..."
"So, I can put an arrow through his eyesocket..." <paraphrased>
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Saw it today.
<---- My face during and after.
My god..what has Whedon DONE to you, Mikaze?!?!
Now I know I can't see this movie. The foul sorceries within will turn me into a naked drow woman!!!!
one of us
one of ussrsly though, it was good. And the big Whedon thing I was worried about didn't actually happen.
My problem with BW, as mentioned above, was that she was as much of a Super Soldier as Captain America (except maybe the first Hulk scene). I bought her duping a crooked arms dealer and taking out his cadre of thugs while tied up. I didn't buy the final battle. I also didn't buy ** spoiler omitted **...
Nitpick: keep in mind that the super soldier formula, in the comics, doesn't make Cap superhuman. He is transformed to the peak of human strength, endurance, and agility. His achievement could, conceivably, be equaled without the formula. Black Widow was trained in some kind of wacky Soviet super spy program and also received weird treatments in the comic book lore.
As far as tricking Loki, notice he didn't reveal all of the plans in motion. Nor did learning he was using the Hulk as a wedge stop that from happening. The trickster's trick was rumbled but even that couldn't stop it.
Off-topic: I dislike Mary Sues, even if their actual name is River Tam.
Loki is great at tricking people. He's also a sucker.
He wound up pregnant in mythology for a reason.
Off-topic: I dislike Mary Sues, even if their actual name is River Tam.
River Tam is not a Mary-Sue.
I really liked Ruffalo's portrayal of Banner. It would be just what I would expect from a slightly eccentric scientist who has been living in isolation - timid and paranoid.
Yeah, Mark Ruffalo is the Daniel Craig of Hulks.
EDIT:
Also, during the Battle In The Woods, I kept picturing some kid asking "why is that transexual beating up C-3PO?"
Is this a film I have to see in 3D IMAX?
I'm not really worried about the price but all the 3D shows are sold out until next week in the areas near me. At least at the times that would be easy for me and friends to go.
Hoping to do a girls night out for the Avengers, all star cute guys in spandex and tight leather = woot!
I saw it in 2D and don't feel like I missed anything. I had to stop and think afterwards if there were any scenes that felt like they were meant to be in 3D. Took me a while to even come up with one.
It's the post-production 3D, so it's not Avatar quality. It's actually a little confusing at times, but it also has really cool 3D previews, like Spiderman! 3D 1st person POV webslinging is kinda wow!
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I saw it in 2D and don't feel like I missed anything. I had to stop and think afterwards if there were any scenes that felt like they were meant to be in 3D. Took me a while to even come up with one.
I've a suspicion the
That sequence absolutely nailed the old school comic book feel of a great big ol' superhero team fight.
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I saw it in 2D and don't feel like I missed anything. I had to stop and think afterwards if there were any scenes that felt like they were meant to be in 3D. Took me a while to even come up with one.I've a suspicion the ** spoiler omitted **
That sequence absolutely nailed the old school comic book feel of a great big ol' superhero team fight.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My problem with BW, as mentioned above, was that she was as much of a Super Soldier as Captain America (except maybe the first Hulk scene). I bought her duping a crooked arms dealer and taking out his cadre of thugs while tied up. I didn't buy the final battle. I also didn't buy ** spoiler omitted **...Nitpick: keep in mind that the super soldier formula, in the comics, doesn't make Cap superhuman. He is transformed to the peak of human strength, endurance, and agility. His achievement could, conceivably, be equaled without the formula. Black Widow was trained in some kind of wacky Soviet super spy program and also received weird treatments in the comic book lore.
As far as tricking Loki, notice he didn't reveal all of the plans in motion. Nor did learning he was using the Hulk as a wedge stop that from happening. The trickster's trick was rumbled but even that couldn't stop it.
Well in the movies it seems to put him a little past 'peak human' At least I'm not aware of anyone who can leave a dent in a bullet resistant shield, like Schmitt did. I didn't mind Natasha hitching a ride so much (though those things looked so much like skycycles that I was expecting to see Hawkeye do it). Cap was still doing his job, giving orders and defending the civilians. Heck, he could give orders to the (Cleveland) NYPD and the National Guard and they'd follow him, since his Charisma is superhuman too. Tasha couldn't.
(Aside, a scene of Cap leading the National Guard from the front would have rocked too)One thing I liked about this movie was it didn't spend time explaining, it let you put the pieces together. Both from why Loki's trick didn't work on Tony to the Ravens to Hulk having the 'didn't kill anyone' clause in his conscience. I assumed that the viewers were intelligent.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Saw it today.
<---- My face during and after.
My god..what has Whedon DONE to you, Mikaze?!?!
Now I know I can't see this movie. The foul sorceries within will turn me into a naked drow woman!!!!
one of us
one of ussrsly though, it was good. And the big Whedon thing I was worried about didn't actually happen.
** spoiler omitted **
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I saw it in 2D and don't feel like I missed anything. I had to stop and think afterwards if there were any scenes that felt like they were meant to be in 3D. Took me a while to even come up with one.I've a suspicion the ** spoiler omitted **
That sequence absolutely nailed the old school comic book feel of a great big ol' superhero team fight.
And we laughed. Oh, how we laughed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[Some of my favorite scenes...
** spoiler omitted **
Everyone had good lines, even the extras.
"Target is angry! Target is VERY ANGRY!"
Plus all the little in character moments.
Tony overriding the Quinjet's audio to play ACDC as he's rushing to the rescue.
"I got that one! The flying monkeys, I got it!"
Thor's love for his brother.
Pepper's banter. "I was having 12% of a moment"
"I'm sorry, that was mean of me. Why don't you put that down and the Other Guy won't come out."
"What? I had him spilling his enitre plan!"
Pretty much anything Loki did.
Pretty much every line out of Clark Gregg's mouth.
And I loved Cap's old fashioned nature. "There's only one G_d ma'am, and he doesn't dress like that."
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Fantastic movie overall... One of the best movies I've seen in quite a while. No gore, no foul language, no nudity; Just good clean fun (like a Star Wars!). You can bring your kids and the whole family will have a blast with this film.
The ONLY part I would change:
I've seen it in 3-D and think that it wasn't necessary. It's like Thor 3-D, not Avatar 3-D, so...
I can't wait for more films in this series.
(Now if DC can wake up and start thinking of a Justice League)
Ultradan
Oh by "greatest" you mean "most successful". I guess Justin Bieber is one of the greatest musicians of all time.
Straw is on sale again, I see.
Sure I will admit that it was, but, for the sake of example, popularity and longevity are not always good indicators of quality. I never saw the show while it was the air. I had never heard of it. The same goes for Arrested Development. I discovered them later and found them refreshing. Many fans would say the same. Fox is really bad when it comes to promoting things.
Either way we are all entitled to our own opinions - even you to your wrong one.
as much as I hate whedon, I must agree that both shows would have been better off on cable. Firefly tried to do things that would not work on broadcast tv, as did arrested development, which I loved.
Thanks for the recommendations DM_a_D! Also,
(especially with the Guardians of the Galaxy movie coming out).There's a GotG movie in the works?!
Oh man, I would give good money to see Moondragon, Groot, and motha@#$%in' ROCKET RACCOON on the big screen.
CANNOT. WAIT.
Either way we are all entitled to our own opinions - even you to your wrong one.
It's exactly this type of fanaticism that would turn me off to whedon if I didn't already hate him.
It's exactly this type of fanaticism that would turn me off to whedon if I didn't already hate him.
Either way we are all entitled to our own opinions - even you to your wrong one.
Dude, lighten up. NOBODY says a line like that and intends it to be taken seriously.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Thanks for the recommendations DM_a_D! Also,
(especially with the Guardians of the Galaxy movie coming out).There's a GotG movie in the works?!
Oh man, I would give good money to see Moondragon, Groot, and motha@#$%in' ROCKET RACCOON on the big screen.
I was actually disappointed that it was this new incarnation rather than the old-school Martinex/Nikki/Charlie/Starhawk/Yondu/Vance Astro crew, but to each their own.
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The movie was a grand trip and well worth the price of admission. My wife brought up an interesting point given how earnestly the movie treats superheros and their heroic natures.
On the helicarrier Thor defends his brother Loki against the attacks of the other Avengers. He then concedes the point by saying, "He's adopted." My wife noted that this is not consistent with Thor's characterization in his movie (Norse god by way of Shakespeare in the Park, relishes battle and the comradeship of his brothers-in-arms, even Loki) and that it plays into the stereotype of Wicked Adopted kid/Wicked Stepmother. She worried that an adopted kid who idolizes Thor would be hurt by that statement. It was an unforced dig on being adopted since Thor could just as easily have said something about Loki being a Frost Giant or not playing well with others.
Overall this is the best version of Hulk since Bill Bixby (although Hulk did become remarkably sane and team-oriented once the fighting began, implying that Banner remains in control and just likes smashing things?), Cap was tremendously affecting as a patriot who makes everyone else better, and Iron Man and Thor both brought out their best points as well. I was pleased to see Black Widow be more than just Scarlett Johanssen's body and to have Hawkeye be more Daniel Craig James Bond than Green Arrow knockoff.
Finally, we may have achieved that state only dreamt about by generations of comic book readers: Movies that bring the comic books to life without compromising character and style for 'grit' and 'realism'.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Persis,
I look at the 'adopted children might be offended' about the same as I look at Indians getting offended that they showed a slum in India. It was a funny line. It's more "We're not all like him" then a slam on adoptions. Were my step sister and my sister's personalities reversed, I'd be saying "She's a step-sister." a lot. It's pretty clear Thor loves his brother, adopted or nit. Especially given the hostility in the helicarrier.
I will agree on Hawkeye and Black Widow. I so want a movie with these two, and just these two.
I think that the Bixby comparison is apt. People seem to forget that the episodes of the Hulk were 40 minutes of "David", and 10 minutes of Hulk. Steve seeing Bruce as a person, not a weapon, and Tony's accepting both were more important than Nick's "We've a cage for you."
Also I think Bruce's technique with Tony's comments really brought home that the Hulk can be 'directed rage'. Maybe we'll see a Hulk start to act like the current cartoon hulk, or the comic hulk.
so if a GotG movie is directed by Wheadon, will this make Freehold's head explode? Or will he spontaniously split in two?
That I would explode into four separate bodies that will land in 4 disparate locations with no memory of my original form. These amnisiac parts of me will be adopted by good hearted childless couples, and they will have elements of my personality but develop as friendly loners, each feeling as if something is missing in their life. One day they will cross paths, and be struck with a sense of deja vu. Only then will my spirit make itself known to them, and reveal their destiny as the heroes who must stand against the now global influence of whedon, who will have by now set himself up as a despot, propped up by his browncoat fanatics. They will wear snazzy outfits and inspire others to stand up against whedon with the help of the super robot they summon, Giant Hater.
I was actually disappointed that it was this new incarnation rather than the old-school Martinex/Nikki/Charlie/Starhawk/Yondu/Vance Astro crew, but to each their own.Thanks for the recommendations DM_a_D! Also,
(especially with the Guardians of the Galaxy movie coming out).There's a GotG movie in the works?!
Oh man, I would give good money to see Moondragon, Groot, and motha@#$%in' ROCKET RACCOON on the big screen.
I like the oldest school, but you can't deny these guys are cool.
Dude, lighten up. NOBODY says a line like that and intends it to be taken seriously.It's exactly this type of fanaticism that would turn me off to whedon if I didn't already hate him.
Either way we are all entitled to our own opinions - even you to your wrong one.
Apparently we hang around different firefly fans.
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@Persis,
I look at the 'adopted children might be offended' about the same as I look at Indians getting offended that they showed a slum in India. It was a funny line. It's more "We're not all like him" then a slam on adoptions.
I think this is exactly it. Particularly if IIRC someone had just made a statement to the effect of Loki being representative of all Asgardians.
Solomon Grundy want team up movie too!
When Legion of Doom movie come out?
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When I think of 'the greatest science fiction series of all time' I think of things like Doctor Who, which has been on for decades, and for which entire nations stop in order to watch it. I think of things like Star Trek, which has influenced real world science and technology to a staggering degree. I think of things like Star Wars, where even people who have never seen it know of the tropes from it. A program which never really got off the ground, then had another chance in a movie that did very poorly can't truly compete with those three. (Neither can my favorite, Babylon 5) Granted, in another 10 years, if science fiction screenwriters and authors are claiming Firefly as a major source of inspiration (Which puts Hendrix as one of the greatest musicians ever despite never having had commercial success during his lifetime) then I'll change my mind. I'll probably never give it another chance due to the insane rabidness of the Browncoats, they have killed my desire to do so.
OFF TOPIC (But interesting!)
You are right. Doctor Who inspired a nation and continues to inspire and entertain. No doubt about the culture and scientific importance that came with Star Trek. Star Wars revolutionized special effects in movies. Babylon 5 was some of the best Sci-Fi ever. The difference and it is big, is that Babylon 5 had 5 years. Star Wars had six movies. Doctor Who has been running for years. Star Trek had two plus season in its initial run, then long running spin-offs and movies, etc. Firefly had 14 episodes (thanks for the correction Dark Mistress) and Serenity. It was cut short and taken away. Its potential never fully realized. And this hurts those that actually enjoyed this incredible work of fiction. Us Browncoats feverishly clamored for more, but will likely never get it to our great disappointment. So yeah! We can be a pain. We feel cheated.
Firefly did not do anything revolutionary as the shows you mentioned. But what Firefly had that the others, except possibly Doctor Who, often lacked was an extremely rich interplay between actors, lead by some exceptional direction. The relationships in Firefly were far more compelling than Hans and Leia, or anything from Captain Kirk. Firefly was not just good Science Fiction. It was good fiction. YMMV
Later,
Mazra
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Most are aware of FHDM's distaste of Whedon, but has anyone been coming across the "Kirby or Die!" fanatics? The ones that won't see anything because Kirby is not being properly recognized in their eyes and that Lee & Marvel is the soulless sucking conglomerate? I know one guy that won't pay one cent for simply that reason because he complains (loudly, I may add) that Kirby's heirs aren't seeing a dime.
He was surprised that I mentioned that Kirby was mentioned in the credits at least twice. I told him that he should just see the film and if he's that concerned, just write a check and find out where to send it toward Kirby's estate.
He mentioned that he may wait until it comes out in the library to see it so he's satisfied that he didn't spend a dime on it. Then I followed up with a conversation about how it reminds me of Gygax and Arneson. "Who's Arneson?" he asks. "You play D&D, right?" "Yeah..." It was an exercise in irony, to say the least. :)
Most are aware of FHDM's distaste of Whedon, but has anyone been coming across the "Kirby or Die!" fanatics? The ones that won't see anything because Kirby is not being properly recognized in their eyes and that Lee & Marvel is the soulless sucking conglomerate? I know one guy that won't pay one cent for simply that reason because he complains (loudly, I may add) that Kirby's heirs aren't seeing a dime.
He was surprised that I mentioned that Kirby was mentioned in the credits at least twice. I told him that he should just see the film and if he's that concerned, just write a check and find out where to send it toward Kirby's estate.
He mentioned that he may wait until it comes out in the library to see it so he's satisfied that he didn't spend a dime on it. Then I followed up with a conversation about how it reminds me of Gygax and Arneson. "Who's Arneson?" he asks. "You play D&D, right?" "Yeah..." It was an exercise in irony, to say the least. :)
kirby fanatics have been around for a while and aren't going anywhere. I wish then luck in their struggle. I don't agree with them entirely, however I can see where they are coming from.
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And we laughed. Oh, how we laughed.I saw it in 2D and don't feel like I missed anything. I had to stop and think afterwards if there were any scenes that felt like they were meant to be in 3D. Took me a while to even come up with one.I've a suspicion the ** spoiler omitted **
That sequence absolutely nailed the old school comic book feel of a great big ol' superhero team fight.
I honestly don't think there was more than 15 minutes in any stretch where people didn't laugh in our theatre. I swear I never expected the story to have that much humor, and still be action packed, much less tell a decent story.
@Persis & Matthew Morris
Please note that the entire 'He's my brother... he's adopted' thing took place on the helicarrier after Loki was on board, and after his staff was on board. It didn't just affect people in the room with it. Cap going off to break into storage rooms was not in character. The paranoia that suddenly started cropping up was directly related to the staff.
So everyone's paranoia and hostility and defensiveness after Loki was on board becomes suspect behavior. I'd mark down Thor's defensiveness about Loki more to the staff than anything else.
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@Persis & Matthew Morris
Please note that the entire 'He's my brother... he's adopted' thing took place on the helicarrier after Loki was on board, and after his staff was on board. It didn't just affect people in the room with it. Cap going off to break into storage rooms was not in character. The paranoia that suddenly started cropping up was directly related to the staff.
So everyone's paranoia and hostility and defensiveness after Loki was on board becomes suspect behavior. I'd mark down Thor's defensiveness about Loki more to the staff than anything else.
That was my take as well on some of the out of character stuff some of the characters did that it was the staff causing it all.
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One thing I liked about this movie was it didn't spend time explaining, it let you put the pieces together. Both from why Loki's trick didn't work on Tony to the...
Fully agree with that aspect of the writing, it's what hurts most modern superhero movies most (and movies in general).
Also
anybody else secretly hope that Thanos' minion was a disfigured Red Skull?
Great movie! I need to see it again!
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One thing I liked about this movie was it didn't spend time explaining, it let you put the pieces together. Both from why Loki's trick didn't work on Tony to the...Fully agree with that aspect of the writing, it's what hurts most modern superhero movies most (and movies in general).
Also ** spoiler omitted **
I have read on IMDB that this was the case, but I can find no other conformation of it.
Nitpick: keep in mind that the super soldier formula, in the comics, doesn't make Cap superhuman. He is transformed to the peak of human strength, endurance, and agility. His achievement could, conceivably, be equaled without the formulaThe trick is that a non-augmented person might be able to reach that peak in one of the three, but not more than that. Heavy training on one tends to stifle development in the others.
What Marvel seems to consider the highest non-augmented mix of all three would be Cyclops (minus the energy blasts), as they tend to put him there in most of thier handbooks.
Actually... In Avengers Iniative, where they were training new super heroes, there was the character MVP, great grandson of the guy that invented the super soldier serum, who had dstrenght, endurance and agility comparable to Captain America, so much so that initially they believe that his family still had the formula for the serum. Turns out they didn't, but the scientist had also wrote a book, detailing the exact diet and training regimen one would need to reach the peak of human potential.
So yeah, Bill was right the first time. In the Marvel Universe you can reach the same achievements as Cap, even without the formula.