Swift Diversion (Ex): At 6th level, whenever a shadow bomber is in an area of dim light, he can use his Bluff skill to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. If the check is successful, he gains a +2 bonus on his next Stealth check made as part of a move action. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 6th level.
Adept Scoundrel: these rogues are masters of their craft. They may turn their talents of skulduggery towards acts of larceny, or to prevent such acts. Master detectives and masters of thieves guilds alike start their careers as Adept Scoundrels. Many of these Adepts have made quite a fortune and reputation hiring their skills out to adventuring parties who require their services.
Class: rogue/ bard
HP: d8
Skills: 6/ lvl
Weapons: as rogue + whip
Armor: light armor + shields (-tower shields)
Swaps:
Trapfinding and trap sense = bardic knowledge (skulldugery: the Adept Scoundrel receives a bonus = to 1/2 their lvl to acrobatics, bluff, disable device, disguise, sleight of hands, and stealth)
Rogue talents @2, 6, 12, and 16 = inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, and frightening tune.
Here's your Rogue/Witch, Byrd. Changed the name to something more in line with its function. Like the concept! Nice and simple.
Coven spies serve as martial enforcers, spies, and agents for their patrons. Each coven spy enters a pact with their patrons for their own varied reasons, but receives a variety of boons through this binding pact. Coven spies are free to utilize their patron abilities in any way they see fit, but they are bound to demands of their patrons. Due to their natural skills of stealth and legerdemain, the Coven spy’s foremost duty is to infiltrate enemy covens and glean their eldritch secrets for their own, while exposing those who have infiltrated their coven. Should a coven spy openly defy her patrons or refuse to uphold her part of the pact, she may find herself on the run from enemy covens or other coven spies seeking to eliminate her on behalf of her patron powers.
Primary: Rogue.
Secondary: Witch.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The coven spy selects three witch skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The coven spy gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The coven spy is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. A coven spy is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Dire Blade (Su): At 1st level, a coven spy forms a bond with a weapon of her choice. This functions like the wizard’s arcane bond class feature, except that a coven spy must commune with her weapon each day to regain her hexes and prepare her patron arcanum, as a witch must commune with her familiar. In addition, a dire blade can be used to cast any one patron arcanum spell that the coven spy is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.
Patron Pact: At 1st level, when a coven spy gains her dire blade, she must also select two patrons and enters into a binding pact with them. She gains both her patron’s spells and adds them to her list of patron arcanum spells at the appropriate level.
A patron pact creates a deeper bond between the coven spy and her patrons than other witches. It is through this pact that a rouguewitch gains her hexes and patron arcanum spells. Although a coven spy may act of her own free will, she is subject to the demands of her patron. A coven spy who willfully defies her patrons, or who violates the strictures of her patrons loses all patron arcanum spells, hexes, and all other witch related class features. A coven spy may not progress any further in levels as a coven spy if she has violated her pact. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate. This ability otherwise functions as the witch’s patron ability.
Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and an additional 1d6 damage every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of 5d6 at 17th level.
Rogue Talents: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the dire blade gains a rogue talent at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter.
Sixth Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a coven spy gains an intuitive sense that protects her from divination effects, giving her a +1 bonus on Will saves made against divination (scrying) spells and spell-like abilities, such as arcane eye, clairaudience/clairvoyance, or scrying. She also gains a +1 dodge bonus to her touch AC against touch spells. These bonuses rise to +2 when the coven spy reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces trap sense.
Patron Arcanum (Sp): At 4th level, a coven spy casts arcane spells drawn from her patron arcanum, with a caster level equal to her coven spy level. To cast a spell, a coven spy must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The save DC against a dire blade’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the coven spy’s Intelligence modifier. Like a witch, a coven spy must commune with her dire blade to prepare her daily allotment of spells. She can prepare any patron spell stored within her dire blade.
A coven spy’s selection of patron arcanum spells is also extremely limited. At 4th level, a dire blade can cast 1st-level patron arcanum spells and each subsequent level of spells every four levels thereafter, up to a maximum of 5th-level spells at 20th level.
A coven spy of 4th level gains her 1st-level patrons spells and adds them to her list of 1st-level patron arcanum spells. A coven spy also gains one patron arcanum spell slot for each level of patron arcanum spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a coven spy can prepare one of the spells from her patron spells in that slot. At 8th level, a coven spy adds her 2nd level patron spells to her list of 2nd-level patron arcanum spells. At 12th level, a coven spy adds her 3rd level patron spells to her list of 3rd-level patron arcanum spells. At 16th level, a coven spy adds her 4th level patron spells to her list of 4th-level patron arcanum spells. At 20th level, a coven spy adds her 5th level patron spells to her list of 5th-level patron arcanum spells. This ability replaces the rogue talents gained at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.
Table: Coven Spy
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Dire blade, patron pact, sneak attack +1d6
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, rogue talent
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Hex, sixth sense +1,
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Patron arcanum (1st), uncanny dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak attack +2d6
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent, sixth sense +2
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Hex
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved uncanny dodge, patron arcanum (2nd)
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Sixth sense +3, sneak attack +3d6
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Hex
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Dire sense +4, patron arcanum (3rd)
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak attack +4d6
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Dire sense +5, hex
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Patron arcanum (4th)
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Sneak attack +5d6
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Dire sense +6, rogue talent
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Hex
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master strike, patron arcanum (5th)
I'll take a look at your Rogue/Bard either today or tomorrow.
Love the class, hate the name ;) brainstorming a bit here:
Cabal Blackguard
Charlatan
Hex blade (taken?)
Coven agent
Dark pact agent
Shadow hexer
Cabal operative...
What do you think?
Here's your Rogue/Witch, Byrd. Changed the name to something more in line with its function. Like the concept! Nice and simple.
** spoiler omitted **...
One important aspect would be a regular down on their luck, theif/ waif/ guttersnipe, looking to make a deal for a better shot at life/ career/ whatever. Another potential aspect would be someone going into this pack with full understanding in order to seek power over their rivals.
If you have played Skyrim, think of it like the Nightengale's (theives guild) Pact.
Covert covener? ;p
Dark Cabalist
Shadowpack Blade
Pactblade
Coven Agent is pretty good actually.
I think Coven Agent seems to be the new name. My top names came down to Coven Spy, Coven Agent, and Patron Agent.
Coven Agent it is.
I'll see what I can do to add that flavor into the description, Byrd.
How's this for the flavor blurp?
COVEN AGENT
City streets are populated with waifs, urchins, guttersnipes, and the other outcasts of society, each facing a daily life or death struggle to survive. So, when opportunity calls, those of indomitable willpower and unquenchable dreams will often grasp it with a vise-like grip in hopes of something better. Among those few are those who enter the service of a secret cabal or coven of witches of their own free will, enticed by their desire for greater power and influence over those who grind them beneath their heels. Coven agents serve as enforcers, infiltrators, and agents for their patrons. Each coven agent enters a pact with his patrons with a full understanding of their role and expectations. While the reason for entering such a pact is often varied, they receive a variety of boons through this binding contract between the corporeal and incorporeal worlds. Coven agents are free to employ their abilities in any way necessary to fulfill their duty, but are nonetheless bound to the demands of their patrons. With their natural skills of stealth and legerdemain, the coven agent’s foremost responsibility is to infiltrate enemy covens and glean their eldritch secrets for their own, while exposing those who have infiltrated their coven. Should a coven agent openly defy her patrons or refuse to uphold her part of the pact, she may find herself on the run from enemy covens or other coven agents seeking to eliminate her on behalf of her patron powers.
I'll buy that for a dollar... Or however much you guys decide to market it for.
Hey Byrd, I need some more decription on your Rogue/Bard's role, function, goals, etc. I'm not quite envisioning what he's supposed to do, exactly.
More than what I wrote like 10 posts ago? These guys are like rogue savants, masters of their skill sets. They use their skills in combat to buff allies, and debuff enemies. They use their skills out of combat to profit for good or ill among the criminal cream of the crop. Experts, guild masters, security ascessors, detectives and such all find their way as adept scoundrels.
Bardic performance: the adept scoundrel makes unique use of the bluff skill, either to pump up the esteem of their colleagues or demoralize their opponents. (See above for bardic performance abilities). The adept scoundrel can use these abilities for a number of rounds = to 1/2 class lvl + cha.
Edit: switch acrobatics for escape artist in skulduggery.
Um, yeah, a bit. I really trying to find the niche he's availing himself into. Is he just a sneaky bugger that tries to lie and cheat or what?
For the adept scoundrel.
Uncany dodge swaps for Clever opportunist (when flanking an opponent, the adept scoundrel and ally can choose to receive a +2 flanking bonus to AC, dmg, or to hit)
IUCD swaps for improved opportunist ( the adept scoundrel only needs to threaten the same opponent as an ally to confer the bonus from clever opportunist. The adept scoundrel must still flank to deliver a sneak attack)
That's fine. Take your time. I'm just trying to nail down this guy. Sometimes that can be the hardest thhing. By chance, is this concept based on any particular movie character or such that might help me?
Not really, just based on some ideas I had to tweak the base rogue in order to make them a little more equal in power to the other classes.
But I think that I draw some inspiration from the concept of a Sherlock Holmes for rougery. Iconic theives like cat woman, black cat, mission impossible, maybe a little old school James Bond, and the villain from Ocean's 12.
Um, yeah, a bit. I really trying to find the niche he's availing himself into. Is he just a sneaky bugger that tries to lie and cheat or what?
His niche is skill monkey with some buff/ debuff ability based off of skill instead of magic. Sure he can be a sneaky cheat, but these things come naturally to the character. While some spend their entire lives perfecting these skills, the adept scoundrel kind just rolls with it naturally. In a game that prioritizes optimized combat builds, this guy makes the most of his skill both in and outside of combat.
I hope to have everything compiled for tomorrow, Byrd. I hope you like it.
I have the utmost confidence in your abilities.
Hi,
I've been following this for a number of months and have a couple of questions;
I'm looking at recommending the Shadow Magus to one of my players who said he was interested in something that combines stealth with magic and was wondering if it would be better to base the various abilities off Int instead of Cha?
Additionally how exactly would the True Shadow ability work; it states you assume the form of a shadow but have the same statistics and abilities as the shadow magus normally?
Thanks
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hi,
I've been following this for a number of months and have a couple of questions;
I'm looking at recommending the Shadow Magus to one of my players who said he was interested in something that combines stealth with magic and was wondering if it would be better to base the various abilities off Int instead of Cha?
Additionally how exactly would the True Shadow ability work; it states you assume the form of a shadow but have the same statistics and abilities as the shadow magus normally?
Thanks
Hi Alfray! Good to see another new face on the thread!
So, Shadow Magus is a Magus/Ninja, and the Ninja side is where using Charisma for abilities came from. What this means is that the Shadow Magus needs to have both a decent Int (for spellcasting) and a decent Cha (for chakrum points and the bonus to AC), and I think that's a balancing factor that shouldn't be dropped. If you did switch everything to Intelligence, then Charisma can become a total dump stat and the character might end up overpowered.
I think when it comes to the True Shadow ability, the way it's explained is a little non-helpful. Instead what it should list in the ability is the benefits that the Shadow Magus DOES get from turning into a shadow. Here's what I would think:
-Incorporeal
-Incorporeal touch attack (1d6 strength, can be used with spell combat)
-Channel resistance +4
-a +8 circumstance bonus to Stealth (+12 in dim light, +4 in bright light)
-temporary hit points equal to Cha modifier * level
Do those sound like fair bonuses? Other than those things, the magus keeps his own ability scores, AC, weapons, etc, they all just become incorporeal.
That all makes sense. Reason I asked about switching Cha for Int is I saw in the previous discussion it had been suggested and couldn't find if there was a conclusion on that or not. I crunched the numbers myself and it did seem a tad overpowered.
Welcome to the thread Alfray! We have our MCAs listed here on our Wiki. Full lists are on the side nav-bar, while all critiqued MCAS are listed under the Ultimate MultiCLass Archetypes link on the main page beneath the logo.
Note the Shadow Magus is not linked yet in the full list. Although it can be found on this thread, it has yet to go through our rigorous critiquing process for overall balance, etc. So, feel free to use the MCA as it is currently written (with the following fix), and let us know how it goes. Playtest feeback would be great and thankyou for your interest!
Great tweak Beck! I've rewritten the ability here.
True Shadow (Su): At 20th level, a shadow magus can spend 3 points from his chakra pool to can assume to form of a shadow, an undead shade, for 1 round per shadow magus level. Unlike a normal shadow, the shadow magus cannot create spawn. While in this form, a shadow magus receives the following benefits:
• gains the Incorporeal subtype
• gains an incorporeal touch attack that deals 1d6 points of strength damage (can be used with spell combat)
• gains channel resistance +4
• gains a +8 circumstance bonus to Stealth (+12 in dim light, +4 in bright light)
• gains temporary hit points equal to his Charisma modifier at each shadow magus level
The shadow magus cannot be turned or commanded while in this shadow form, but can communicate intelligibly with other creatures. This shadow magus otherwise retains all other statistics and abilities as the shadow magus. If a shadow magus is destroyed while in this shadow form, he must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadow magus gains one permanent negative level and cannot assume this shadow form for 30 days. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level and restriction. This ability replaces true magus.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Welcome to the thread Alfray! We have our MCAs listed here on nour Wiki. Note the Shadow Magus is not linked yet. Although it can be found on this thread, it has yet to go through our rigorous critiquing process for overall balance, etc. So, feel free to use the MCA as it is currently written (with the following fix), and let us know how it goes. Playtest feeback would be great and thankyou for your interest!
Great tweak Beck! I've rewritten the ability here.
True Shadow (Su): At 20th level, a shadow magus can spend 3 points from his chakra pool to can assume to form of a shadow, an undead shade, for 1 round per shadow magus level. Unlike a normal shadow, the shadow magus cannot create spawn. While in this form, a shadow magus receives the following benefits:
• gains the Incorporeal subtype
• gains an incorporeal touch attack that deals 1d6 points of strength damage (can be used with spell combat)
• gains channel resistance +4
• gains a +8 circumstance bonus to Stealth (+12 in dim light, +4 in bright light)
• gains temporary hit points equal to his Charisma modifier at each shadow magus levelThe shadow magus cannot be turned or commanded while in this shadow form, but can communicate intelligibly with other creatures. This shadow magus otherwise retains all other statistics and abilities as the shadow magus. If a shadow magus is destroyed while in this shadow form, he must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadow magus gains one permanent negative level and cannot assume this shadow form for 30 days. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level and restriction. This ability replaces true magus.
That last sentence confuses me... if he's destroyed in shadow form, does he come back to life, but possibly with a negative level? You should spell that out, if that's the case.
It should probably read:
If a shadow magus is destroyed while in this shadow form, he must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadow magus becomes corpoareal again, loses all benefits of this shadow form, gains one permanent negative level, and cannot assume this shadow form for 30 days. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level and restriction. This ability replaces true magus.
Thank you. Cheers for the link, though I already have it bookmarked (same with this thread) as I think it is a decent replacement for gestalt characters - which I've been a fan of since I first read the rules for.
That rewrite is brilliant, hopefully I can test the class if this game gets running soon. Aside from play testing is there any other way I could help?
Feedback would be great. The only other thing that would be helpful is when MCAs are posted on the thread, you can join in on the discussions, or post your own ideas for new MCAs, just as others have. When an MCA is posted on the thread, it's usually not in its final version, and is in need of discussion, balancing, and revision, so everyones thoughts on abilities, etc., are always welcome.
The MCA Creation Table on the nav-bar in the Wiki shows ALL the MCAs concepts currently in play, whether they are finalized, completed but not critiqued, or simply in the conceptual stage. So, anything without a check mark is open for creation.
It might be a good idea to check the spellcasting entries and compare them with the spell tables for each spellcasting archetype to verify their consistency. Here are a few problem areas that I found:
Coterie witch: Casts as a witch, but apparently has the spells per day progression of a summoner. It is not clear why this archetype lacks zero level spells.
Grave Caller: Casts as a summoner, but it is not clear whether this archetype is a prepared or spontaneous spellcaster. If prepared, zero level spells are missing; if spontaneous, spells known table is missing.
Life Giver: Same problem as Grave Caller.
Nefarious Convoker: This archetype is said to prepare and cast spells as a summoner -- but summoners are a spontaneous spellcasting class, so that reference needs to be cleaned up. This is another archetype for which it is unclear why zero level spells are missing.
Siege Marshal: Casting is clearly meant to be spontaneous, per the summoner class. The spells known table is missing.
I only went through the archetypes that had summoner as a primary or secondary class, but I would not be surprised if similar problems cropped up in the inquisitor and oracle archetypes -- I have noticed that many 3rd party supplements get spell progressions for the core 11 classes right but flub the APG classes. But it probably wouldn't hurt to check the PHB based archetypes as well.
Thanks for checking them out. We'll take a look!
Some of the 0-level spells are missing because they were removed as part of the balancing process they go through. Also, there are various MCAs that use a different spell progression from their primary class. Like the Coterie Witch, she uses the summoner spell progression, but prepares and casts spells like a witch. These are all part of our MultiClass Archetype process.
We might combine say a wizard and alchemist, and when all is said and done, depending on what abilities are in the MCA, it might use Alchemist spell/extract progression, wizard BAB and saves, and a combo of wizard and alchemist abilities. Another change might be that from book caster to spontaneous caster. Again, it's all part of the balancing progress.
All that said, a number of the one's you have suggested have not gone through the complete finalization process.
We'll need to include some of the Known Spells tables for easy reference, instead of relying on players to go and check tth8er books.
Alright, after a small scare that I had somehow deleted this one off my master docs, here's the Adept Scoundrel. Not sure about the name, but I couldn't think of anything, so I'll ask for suggestions.
Primary: Rogue.
Secondary: Bard.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The adept scoundrel selects three bard skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The adept scoundrel gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The adept scoundrel is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and whip. An adept scoundrel is proficient with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Skullduggery: At 1st level, an adept scoundrel gains a bonus equal to half her adept scoundrel level on Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, and Sleight of Hand checks. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Bardic Performance: At 2nd level, an adept scoundrel gains the bardic performance ability, and the following performances. This ability replaces evasion.
Influence: At 2nd level, an adept scoundrel can use her performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the adept scoundrel’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 6th level, and every six adept scoundrel levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 18th level.
Alternatively, an adept scoundrel can use her performance to demoralize enemies. Each enemy must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the scoundrel’s level + the adept scoundrel’s Charisma modifier) or become shaken for the duration of the performance, plus an additional number of rounds equal to 1/2 the adept scoundrel’s level once it has ended. Using this effect on the same creature only extends the duration and does not create a stronger fear condition. To be affected, an enemy must be within 30 feet and be able to perceive the adept scoundrel’s performance
Influence can use audible or visual components. The adept scoundrel must choose which component to use and what effect to create when starting her performance. This performance replaces the rouge talent gained at 2nd level.
Inspire Competence (Su): At 3rd level, an adept scoundrel gains the inspire competence bardic performance. This performance replaces trap sense.
Dirge of Doom (Su): At 8th level, an adept scoundrel gains the dirge of doom bardic performance. This performance replaces the rouge talent gained at 8th level.
Frightening Tune (Sp): At 14th level, an adept scoundrel gains the frightening tune bardic performance. This performance replaces the rouge talent gained at 14th level.
Brilliant Performance: At 20th level, an adept scoundrel can use her performance to grant a number of allies with 30 feet equal to her Charisma modifier extraordinary inspiration. As long as the performance is maintained, whenever an ally makes an attack roll, ability check, or skill check, he rolls two d20s and takes the better result. Brilliant performance is a mind-effecting effect that relies on audible and visual components. This performance replaces the rogue talent gained at 20th level.
Clever Opportunist (Ex): At 4th level, whenever an adept scoundrel is flanking an opponent, she can choose to gain a +2 flanking bonus on damage rolls against the opponent, or a +2 flanking bonus to her Armor Class against attacks made by the opponent, instead of the normal flanking bonus. Any ally participating in the flanking action also gains this bonus. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Rogue Talents: This ability is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the adept scoundrel gains a rogue talent at 4th, 6th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 18th level.
Improved Clever Opportunist (Ex): At 8th level, an adept scoundrel gains
the flanking bonus granted by her clever opportunist ability when an opponent is threatened by an ally. An ally gains this bonus only when an adept scoundrel and the ally are flanking an opponent as normal. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Advanced Talents: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that an adept scoundrel adds the following rogue abilities to the list of advanced talents she may select: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge. An adept scoundrel must select uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge. In the case of the Improved Evasion talent, the adept scoundrel must have evasion to select it.
SWAP TABLE
Trapfinding = Skullduggery (Bluff, Disguise, Escape ARtist, Sleight of Hand)
Evasion = Bardic performance
Rogue talent (2) = Influence
Trap sense = Inspire competence
Uncanny dodge = Clever Opportunist
Rogue talent (8) = Dirge of doom
Improved Uncanny dodge = Improved Clever Opportunist
Rogue talent (14) = Frightening tune
Rogue talent (20) = Brilliant performance
Table: Adept Scoundrel
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Skullduggery, sneak attack +1d6
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Bardic performance, influence +1
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, inspire competence +2
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Clever opportunist, rogue talent
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +3d6
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Influence +2, rogue talent
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +4d6, inspire competence +3
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Dirge of doom, improved clever opportunist
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak attack +5d6
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Sneak attack +6d6, inspire competence +4
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Influence +3, rogue talent
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +7d6
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Frightening tune
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Sneak attack +8d6, inspire competence +5
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Rogue talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak attack +9d6
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Influence +4, rogue talent
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +10d6, inspire competence +6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Brilliant performance, master strike
Great work, but skulduggery really isn't the same without disable device. It's a suped up version of trapfinding, but you are giving up the trap sense along with it to represent the confidence in the skill rather than the ability to survive the effects.
Maybe to balance it, take away the combat talents from the rogue talent list or decrease the sneak attack progression as a last resort in the name of balance.
With such a large list of skills gaining a 1/2 level bonus, I think it may be prudent to cut sneak attack down to 7d6 max. Makes him less focused on sneak attack and more on skill "monkey" like you wanted. Also it balances it well I think.
So Skullduggery now has Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, and Sleight of Hand.
Sneak attack reduced to 7d6 max, gaining +1d6 at 1st, and an additional +1d6 at 3rd, 7th, 9th, 13th, 15th, and 19th.
Very nice!
I imagine that Skullduggery's bonus is half her adept scoundrel level (minimum 1)?
Also I highly suggest using Dropbox for important documents, as if you delete anything it has a 30 day backup you can recover from.
Yup! I'll add that in.
I use Google Docs and a Mediafire account to back them up. But I had apparently saved the doc as a different name and found it in my Word doc list.
Hey I checked out what you did with that druid/gunslinger, i loved it. also I've been playtesting the nightshroud, the class is fun though it needs a bit of rebalancing.
Issues i've found:
The class has too many options, my advice is to limit the channel energy to opposed channel energy, choosing at a roughly 2/5 progression.
I'd also advise on allowing the stealth domain from the divine agent archetype, and restricting the night shroud to using only spells that oppose his deity.
I'd give him access to the paladin/antipaladin spell list, or the inquisitor spell list (Whichever seems more rational) but allow the night shroud spell lists for his ki casting ability
Here's how i'd change it:
lore reconfiguration: Nightshrouds take power from their enemies to destroy them, be they good or evil.
Alignment: Any non lawful
Spells: A night shroud casts spells from the paladin (If evil) or anti-paladin (if good) spell list, he gains his powers by stealing powers from evil gods, he must prepare these spells at the beginning of his day as a cleric would.
A night shroud never takes from his own deity's energy, he instead may convert an opposed spell by spending one ki point and sacrificing one of his prepared spells to spontaneously cast a spell from his own alignment based night shroud spell list.
(These will be the two night shroud spell lists, giving alignment restrictions)
Domains: a Night shroud may pick a single domain which opposes his deity.
as for domain spells I've considered two potentials
Option A.) This one is a little more powerful than intended
a night shroud also may cast his domain spells and gains access to them as a cleric of his level, if the night shroud is unable to cast spells of that level he may instead cast these as spell like abilities once per day per every six levels he has in the night shroud class (Minimum once), if the night shroud is able to cast spells of the corresponding spell level he may no longer cast that spell as a spell like ability, instead he is able to prepare it like any domain slot.
for example a tenth level night shroud with the artifice domain may cast animate rope as a first level spell, wood shape as a second level spell, stone shape as a third level spell, and minor creation as a spell like ability once a day.
Option B.) A Night shroud gains access to his domain spells as normal, but gains access to the following new ninja tricks
Domain specialization I: A night shroud may cast the domain spell of the next spell level up from which he has attained as a spell like ability, this ability costs one ki point.
Domain specialization II: a night shroud may cast the domain spell of two levels beyond which he has attained as a spell like ability, this ability costs two ki points. a night shroud may choose this trick only if he has chosen domain specialization I.
Domain specialization III: a night shroud may cast the domain spell of three levels beyond his highest attained spell level as a spell like ability, this ability costs three ki points.
Divine Agent talent variant: Swap text to "A divine agent may cast he domain spell X levels beyond his highest y times a day" where X is equal to the talent rank and y is equal to the opposite talent rank, so I will be three times per day, II will be twice a day and III will equal once per day.
Channel ki
At fifth level, a night shroud may spend two ki points to channel 2d6 energy, The save DC and damage are always equal to the night shroud's sneak attack damage dice -1, but only those granted through the night shroud class, these are never affected by any feats, traits, or other effects which alter sneak attack.
So a tenth level night shroud may channel 3d6 energy and only gains +3 to the save DC, a 20th level night shroud may channel energy 6d6 with a +6
Now to double post for another idea for something that perked my interest.
Shaman of the Four Winds
Primary class: Monk
Secondary class: Druid
Goal: To create a martial artist who transforms into the elemental races, Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, and Undine.
Bonus feats: allows for racial feats of undine/ifrit/oread/sylph, and feats relating to elemental fist.
Elemental fist: Replaces stunning fist, damage scales like monk of four winds.
Elemental Form: As wild shape but transform into ifrit, oread, sylth, and undine, adjusts racial stats accordingly, loses all racial traits in place of new race's traits. gain access to domain abilities at wild shape advancement, replaces wholeness of body , manuever training, still mind.
Elemental bond: gain access to elemental domains but only while in elemental form, domain depends on form, earth for Oread, air for sylph, fire for ifrit, and water for undine. Spell like abilities (Fire bolt, lightning arc, acid dart, and icicle) use same resource pool(Not stacked). if subdomains are chosen they must all provide an amount of uses per day, Arson/metal/surge/wind may be chosen independently would simply replace fire bolt. But if Ash, caves, clouds, or oceans are chosen then the other three must also be chosen.
Spells: only cast domain spells, each only 1/day, no bonus spells for high wis score, only castable while in elemental form.
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Now to double post for another idea for something that perked my interest.
Shaman of the Four Winds
Primary class: Monk
Secondary class: DruidGoal: To create a martial artist who transforms into the elemental races, Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, and Undine.
Bonus feats: allows for racial feats of undine/ifrit/oread/sylph, and feats relating to elemental fist.
Elemental fist: Replaces stunning fist, damage scales like monk of four winds.Elemental Form: As wild shape but transform into ifrit, oread, sylth, and undine, adjusts racial stats accordingly, loses all racial traits in place of new race's traits. gain access to domain abilities at wild shape advancement, replaces wholeness of body , manuever training, still mind.
Elemental bond: gain access to elemental domains but only while in elemental form, domain depends on form, earth for Oread, air for sylph, fire for ifrit, and water for undine. Spell like abilities (Fire bolt, lightning arc, acid dart, and icicle) use same resource pool(Not stacked). if subdomains are chosen they must all provide an amount of uses per day, Arson/metal/surge/wind may be chosen independently would simply replace fire bolt. But if Ash, caves, clouds, or oceans are chosen then the other three must also be chosen.
Spells: only cast domain spells, each only 1/day, no bonus spells for high wis score, only castable while in elemental form.
This is a cool concept, though it'll need a little work to fit in the standard Pathfinder rules. If you'll allow, I'll attack it later today and post a full writeup version, and you can let me know if it fits your concept. Good work!
Also, we'll have someone attack the balance issues with the Nightshroud. Raider? Balance is your thing, can you try to fix those couple abilities for us?
Now to double post for another idea for something that perked my interest.
Shaman of the Four Winds
Primary class: Monk
Secondary class: DruidGoal: To create a martial artist who transforms into the elemental races, Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, and Undine.
Bonus feats: allows for racial feats of undine/ifrit/oread/sylph, and feats relating to elemental fist.
Elemental fist: Replaces stunning fist, damage scales like monk of four winds.Elemental Form: As wild shape but transform into ifrit, oread, sylth, and undine, adjusts racial stats accordingly, loses all racial traits in place of new race's traits. gain access to domain abilities at wild shape advancement, replaces wholeness of body , manuever training, still mind.
Elemental bond: gain access to elemental domains but only while in elemental form, domain depends on form, earth for Oread, air for sylph, fire for ifrit, and water for undine. Spell like abilities (Fire bolt, lightning arc, acid dart, and icicle) use same resource pool(Not stacked). if subdomains are chosen they must all provide an amount of uses per day, Arson/metal/surge/wind may be chosen independently would simply replace fire bolt. But if Ash, caves, clouds, or oceans are chosen then the other three must also be chosen.
Spells: only cast domain spells, each only 1/day, no bonus spells for high wis score, only castable while in elemental form.
This is a cool concept, though it'll need a little work to fit in the standard Pathfinder rules. If you'll allow, I'll attack it later today and post a full writeup version, and you can let me know if it fits your concept. Good work!
Also, we'll have someone attack the balance issues with the Nightshroud. Raider? Balance is your thing, can you try to fix those couple abilities for us?
Feel I should repost this here just so this class isn't stepping on any of the other elemental MCA's toes:
Among those that study divine magic, some become devoted to the elements as a spiritual ideal, honing their minds and bodies to exemplify what they see as divine traits in the natural elements of the world. These are Elemental Savants, devout martial artists who wield the divine powers of fire, water, earth, and air.
Primary Class: Oracle
Secondary Class: Monk
Hit die: d8
Skills: 4 + Int mod, add 3 Monk class skills to skill list.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Oracles are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor (but not with shields). He receives additional weapon proficiencies based upon his Elemental Mystery (see below). This replaces the Oracle’s normal weapon and armor proficiencies.
Intuitive Mind: Unlike most oracles whose divine magic is powered by force of personality, an elemental savant uses pure willpower to master and fuel his magic. He uses his Wisdom, rather than his Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to his oracle class, such as bonus spells per day, maximum spell level he can cast, and the save DCs of his spells.
Diminished Spellcasting: The elemental savant casts ones fewer spells of each spell level. If this reduces the number of spells to 0, he may only cast spells of that level if he has a high enough Wisdom score for bonus spells of that level.
Elemental Curse: At 1st level, an elemental savant’s bond with one element him susceptible to his opposing element (Air opposes Earth, Fire opposes Water). The elemental savant gains vulnerability to his opposed element's energy type: Air (electricity), Earth (acid), Fire (fire) Water (cold). In addition, whenever an elemental savant makes a successful melee attack, he can choose to deal energy damage against his target. This attack deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type + 1 for every two elemental savant levels you possess. The elemental savant can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier. This ability replaces oracle’s curse.
Elemental Mystery: At 1st level, when the Elemental Savant chooses a Mystery, he must choose either Flame, Stone, Wind, or Water. In addition to the bonus spells and Revelations granted by the mystery, the Elemental Savant also gains weapon proficiencies based upon the Mystery chosen:
Flames: shortsword, scimitar, falchion
Stone: greatclub, light flail, heavy flail
Waves: trident, ranseur, nunchaku
Wind: longbow, shortbow, shuriken
This otherwise functions as the Mystery class feature.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, an elemental savant gains the monk’s unarmed strike ability, except that the damage he deals with his unarmed strike is 1d4 (1d3 for Small creatures). This unarmed damage increases to 1d6 (1d4) at 4th level, 1d8 (1d6) at 10th level, and 1d10 (1d8) at 16th level.
Evasion: At 2nd level or higher, an elemental savant can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If an elemental savant makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if an elemental savant is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Elemental Body: As he increases in power, the elemental savant becomes further attuned to the elemental forces. At 3rd level, he receives a permanent passive ability based on his element. At 10th level, he gains supernatural ability that can be used by sacrificing a spell slot
Fire: +2 on all effects that deal fire damage. At 10th level, when dealing fire damage, he may reroll a number of damage die equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. He must take the second result, even if it is worse.
Earth: +2 natural armor bonus. At 10th level, he can increase this bonus by 1 per level of the spell sacrificed for 1 minute.
Air: Base movement speed increased by 10ft when wearing light or no armor. At 10th level, he can gain a fly speed of 10ft per level of the spell sacrificed for 1 round (average maneuverability).
Water: +4 on Sense Motive and Acrobatics checks. At 10th level, he can gain fast healing X for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier, where X is the level of the spell sacrificed.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: At 17th level, the elemental savant can communicate with any living creature.
This is a cool concept, though it'll need a little work to fit in the standard Pathfinder rules. If you'll allow, I'll attack it later today and post a full writeup version, and you can let me know if it fits your concept. Good work!
Also, we'll have someone attack the balance issues with the Nightshroud. Raider? Balance is your thing, can you try to fix those couple abilities for us?
Awesome, The main part of this is a monk who is at balance with the four winds. I had some ideas of adjusting the elemental form for size category as well, so a small monk would be a small template ifrit/sylph//oread/undine.
other possible fluff abilities would be to gain certain traits from the four races (Which wont stack with themselves in the four forms)I also thought of a master elemental form capstone where the character becomes a combined form treated as a suli who gains access to all domains.
these all seemed a bit too powerful but may be workable into the class.
As for Big Lemon, this is a character who is focused on four elements, not just one. both are affected by the idea of an elemental monk, which is supported on multiple levels by pathfinder lore. it is in my mind no more overlapping than the sorcerer and the wizard or the oracle and the cleric. and has been written up with a different spell list. While one class gains access to domains the other gains mysteries, and while one class has a spell list, the other has pretty restrictive casting.
one uses stunning fist and the other uses elemental fist, there are numerous non-overlapping themes here. though the savant focuses one one element while the shaman attempts to balance them out.
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This is a cool concept, though it'll need a little work to fit in the standard Pathfinder rules. If you'll allow, I'll attack it later today and post a full writeup version, and you can let me know if it fits your concept. Good work!
Also, we'll have someone attack the balance issues with the Nightshroud. Raider? Balance is your thing, can you try to fix those couple abilities for us?
Awesome, The main part of this is a monk who is at balance with the four winds. I had some ideas of adjusting the elemental form for size category as well, so a small monk would be a small template ifrit/sylph//oread/undine.
other possible fluff abilities would be to gain certain traits from the four races (Which wont stack with themselves in the four forms)I also thought of a master elemental form capstone where the character becomes a combined form treated as a suli who gains access to all domains.
these all seemed a bit too powerful but may be workable into the class.As for Big Lemon, this is a character who is focused on four elements, not just one. both are affected by the idea of an elemental monk, which is supported on multiple levels by pathfinder lore. it is in my mind no more overlapping than the sorcerer and the wizard or the oracle and the cleric. and has been written up with a different spell list. While one class gains access to domains the other gains mysteries, and while one class has a spell list, the other has pretty restrictive casting.
one uses stunning fist and the other uses elemental fist, there are numerous non-overlapping themes here. though the savant focuses one one element while the shaman attempts to balance them out.
Yeah, these will definitely be very different classes. What I've come up with so far includes gaining access to the ifrit, oread, sylph, and undine racial feats as bonus feats (my thought here is this monk will slowly look more and more like a combination of the different races, maybe with fiery hair, have a light, airy step but stony skin). I'm also planning to have a wild shape-style form-changing ability where he can become one of the four races and gain a limited set of their racial abilities. At a higher level than that, he'll be able to change shape into a true elemental.
I'm still trying to figure out how to include the elemental domains in a balanced way. I'll let you know what I come up with.
Yeah, these will definitely be very different classes. What I've come up with so far includes gaining access to the ifrit, oread, sylph, and undine racial feats as bonus feats (my thought here is this monk will slowly look more and more like a combination of the different races, maybe with fiery...
Just keep the wis to AC, it's actually a limitation for something that casts divine spells
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Just keep the wis to AC, it's actually a limitation for something that casts divine spells
Yeah, these will definitely be very different classes. What I've come up with so far includes gaining access to the ifrit, oread, sylph, and undine racial feats as bonus feats (my thought here is this monk will slowly look more and more like a combination of the different races, maybe with fiery...
I was actually thinking no actual spellcasting, but instead have domain spells as 1/day spell-like abilities? Not sure yet.
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Ok, so here's my version of the Shaman of the Four Winds. It probably needs some balance work, and I wasn't able to find a good way to get a domain in there, so if anyone can help with that it would be great.
Shaman of the Four Winds
Primary: Monk
Secondary: Druid
HD: d8
BAB: ¾
Weapon and Armor proficiencies: Same as standard monk.
Skills and Ranks: A Shaman of the Four Winds may choose three skills from the Druid class skill list to become class skills. She gains a number of skill ranks per level equal to 4 + her Int mod.
Elemental Fist: At 1st level, a shaman of the four winds gains Elemental Fist as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, the monk increases the damage of her Elemental Fist by 1d6 (2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 10th level, and so on). For the purposes of uses per day, her effective monk level is equal to her shaman of the four winds level. This replaces stunning fist.
Elemental Empathy: At 1st level, a shaman of the four winds gains a druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that instead of affecting animals, she may instead improve the attitude of creatures of the elemental type, or those with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or water subtypes. This ability and nature sense replace flurry of blows.
Nature sense: At 1st level, a shaman of the four winds gains a druid’s nature sense class feature. This ability and elemental empathy replace flurry of blows.
Bonus Feats: A shaman of the four winds may choose from the following feats as bonus feats beginning at 1st level, without meeting their prerequisites: Airy Step, Aquatic Ancestry, Cloud Gazer, Dwarf Blooded, Echoes of Stone, Fire Sight, Scorching Weapons, Stony Step, Water Skinned.
-At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Blistering Feint, Inner Flame, Murmers of Earth, Oread Burrower, Wings of Air.
-At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Blazing Aura, Oread Earth Glider, Inner Breath.
-At 14th level, the following feat is added to the list: Elemental Jaunt.
These lists replace the normal list of bonus feat options for a monk.
Element Aspect: Beginning at 1st level, a shaman of the four winds can take on an aspect of an elemental race as a standard action. This lasts a number of minutes equal to her level, or until she chooses to revert to her normal form. This ability manifests physically, making the shaman look more like a member of that race in some noticeable way. She may choose from Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, or Undine, and she gains a single racial ability of her choice from the list below for that race.
-Ifrit: Fire resistance 5, desert mirage, fire in the blood, fire starter, wildfire heart
-Oread: Acid resistance 5, crystalline form, granite skin, mountain born, stone in the blood
-Sylph: Electricity resistance 5, breeze-kissed, like the wind, storm in the blood, sonic resistance 5
-Undine: Cold resistance 5, amphibious, deepsight, flesh chameleon, hydrated vitality, terrain chameleon, water sense
At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the shaman of the four winds can gain an additional racial ability (from the same race) each time she uses element aspect (to a maximum of 6 racial abilities at 20th level). Instead of a different racial ability, the shaman may also choose to increase her resistance to the listed element by +5, gaining immunity to the element if she chooses resistance five times.
Element aspect can be used once per day at 1st level, and an additional time per day at 4th level and every four levels thereafter. While using this ability, the shaman is treated as either her own type or a native outsider of the same subtype as the chosen race for all spells and effects which depend on creature type, whichever is more beneficial for the shaman. This replaces the monk’s unarmed strike damage progression.
Elemental ki: At 4th level, a shaman of the four winds gains a ki pool as normal, but may not spend a ki point to increase his movement speed or gain an additional attack during a full attack action. Instead, she may use the following additional abilities by spending ki points:
Elemental surge: By spending one ki point, the shaman may increase his elemental fist damage by +1d6 for a number of rounds equal to her level. She may spend an additional ki point when using this ability, gaining another +1d6 points of damage, at 9th level and every five levels thereafter (to a maximum of +4d6 by spending 4 ki points at 19th level). This replaces high jump.
Element spells: By spending two ki points, the shaman may cast burning hands [ifrit], magic stone [oread], feather fall [sylph] or hydraulic push [undine] as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to her class level. If the shaman is currently using her element aspect ability and is in the form of the appropriate race (as shown in brackets after the spell name), she may cast that spell-like ability by spending only one ki point. This replaces fast movement.
Elemental shape: Beginning at 6th level, a shaman of the four winds gains the druid’s wild shape ability (with an effective druid level equal to his shaman of the four winds level), but only to become an elemental (as elemental shape I). This ability progresses as a druid’s wild shape, but only with regard to becoming an elemental. This replaces slow fall, wholeness of body, diamond body, diamond soul, and empty body.
Elemental merge: At 12th level, a shaman of the four winds may use her element aspect ability to take on racial features of two different elemental races. For example, she may choose to gain acid resistance 5 and granite skin (from the oread race) AND cold resistance 5 (from the undine race).
At 17th level, she may take on aspects from three different races in this way.
Alternatively, at 17th level she may choose to use her elemental shape ability to become a combination of two types of elemental, gaining the benefits of both (for example, she may choose to become both a fire and water elemental, essentially a steam elemental). Any abilities that are gained by both elemental types do not stack, though penalties to ability scores do stack with bonuses (for example, becoming a fire and earth elemental as per elemental body III would give the shaman of the four winds a +6 size bonus to Strength, a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus). This replaces abundant step, timeless body and tongue of the sun and moon.
Timeless body: A shaman of the four winds gains this ability at 15th level, as a druid of his level. This replaces quivering palm.
I like it, Beck. I'll have to take a better look at it though, but first glance I like it. Not sre if there is room for a domain in there.
Very nice cartmanbeck. I love the flavor and your execution.
I do have a few questions comments:
* I'm playing a sylph with the breeze kissed alt racial trait at the moment - if I'm a first level Element caller how would this ability work? Normally, as a Sylph, breeze kissed gives a constant bonus to AC against ranged missile attacks OR you can sacrifice that protection for 24 hours to make a trip attack on one opponent up to 30' away... As an Element Caller I only get the AC protection for 10 rounds/1 minute per level - what happens if I then/at any time during that duration sacrifice the protection for the at range wind trip attack? Am I barred from evoking this elemental aspect ability for 24 hours?
*I see the Element Aspect replaces the monk's unarmed strike damage progression, but this is kinda already replaced by Elemental Fist getting its own damage progression, albeit a lower damage progression. Not really a question, just saying.
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Very nice cartmanbeck. I love the flavor and your execution.
I do have a few questions comments:
* I'm playing a sylph with the breeze kissed alt racial trait at the moment - if I'm a first level Element caller how would this ability work? Normally, as a Sylph, breeze kissed gives a constant bonus to AC against ranged missile attacks OR you can sacrifice that protection for 24 hours to make a trip attack on one opponent up to 30' away... As an Element Caller I only get the AC protection for 10 rounds/1 minute per level - what happens if I then/at any time during that duration sacrifice the protection for the at range wind trip attack? Am I barred from evoking this elemental aspect ability for 24 hours?
*I see the Element Aspect replaces the monk's unarmed strike damage progression, but this is kinda already replaced by Elemental Fist getting its own damage progression, albeit a lower damage progression. Not really a question, just saying.
@ question 1: I'm not sure what to do there. We could limit it to only constant effects or something like that... suggestions?
@ question 2: That's exactly right, and it's why I replaced the damage progression... you already are getting increasing elemental damage a bunch of times per day.
@Element Caller: could go either way with breeze kissed - either just receive the AC bonus while the aspect is operating OR have it function just as normal, with the 24 hour sacrifice caveat. I'm kinda on the fence about whether the sacrifice is worth more or less when made in conjunction with a rounds/day ability you can call up times/day versus a 24hr ability. Dang corner cases!!!
- I guess it just seems the swap Element Aspect is kind of muddied by the fact that a whole ability (damage progression) is removed but then partially replaced "themechanically" elsewhere (elemental fist) - from a "theory-pop-mash-math" perspective my feeling is that element aspect is a greater sum addition to the vanilla - It feels more like "damage progression is halved/retarded/tweaked + element aspect" - NOT "damage is replaced by element aspect". Does that make sense?
I like the ability to be sure, and I definitely find it difficult to properly place values on what is at stake here. Thoughts?
So I was interested in the Mystic Knave, but am really unsure as to the balance of the class as compared to the Rogue.
As far as I can tell, the only thing the Rogue gives up is trapfinding and trap sense, with an additional penalty as a result of the Oracle's curse that he takes on. He also "loses" 5 rogue talents.
In exchange, he gets another good save, more class skills, a free rogue talent (minor magic), access to revelations, and a capstone that is the same as the rogue's, only better. Further, the 5 rogue talents he gives up aren't really lost, just replaced by spells. The oracle's curse that he receives is also not as severe as it would be for a real Oracle.
I don't play Pathfinder often, and do not consider myself even a journeyman when it comes to system mastery, but it seems to me that the Mystic Knave is picking up a lot for dropping some trap-oriented class features and picking up an Oracle Curse Lite. Or am I missing something?
So I was interested in the Mystic Knave, but am really unsure as to the balance of the class as compared to the Rogue.
As far as I can tell, the only thing the Rogue gives up is trapfinding and trap sense, with an additional penalty as a result of the Oracle's curse that he takes on. He also "loses" 5 rogue talents.
In exchange, he gets another good save, more class skills, a free rogue talent (minor magic), access to revelations, and a capstone that is the same as the rogue's, only better. Further, the 5 rogue talents he gives up aren't really lost, just replaced by spells. The oracle's curse that he receives is also not as severe as it would be for a real Oracle.
I don't play Pathfinder often, and do not consider myself even a journeyman when it comes to system mastery, but it seems to me that the Mystic Knave is picking up a lot for dropping some trap-oriented class features and picking up an Oracle Curse Lite. Or am I missing something?
One thing to note is that this version of Oracle's Curse is actually more of a weakness. You gain the full drawbacks at level one, and the benefits you recieve from levelling (bonus languages from tongues, resistance to desease for wasting) are delayed.