Combat Systems

[Evilagram]

Hey, I am a huge fan of the tabletop version of Pathfinder, and it was quite to my delight to discover that an online version would be produced. I really love all the work that's being put into making this a living breathing world. It's really spectacular, however every time I read another clever way to imbue life into the game, I just keep thinking, what about the combat?

Quite frankly, most MMOs out right now have pretty lame combat. It's systemically lame. Every MMO isn't about fighting so much as repeating your job for maximum efficiency. You're the tank? Keep focus on you and make sure you don't die. You're the healer? Make sure everyone isn't dead! You're the DPS? You'll never guess what your job is!

It's entirely an "efficiency race". Who can out-efficiency the enemy? buffs and debuffs just mean you're recalculating the most efficient pattern all the time. The combat isn't really based on outwitting the opponent, it's based on who can crunch numbers fastest.

In comparison, I think that the genre that got it right is fighting games and their progeny. A great fantasy example would be Dark Souls, which despite balance and netcode issues, has a really great PvP system worked out.

Have a look at the combat in skyrim, it doesn't feel like people swordfighting so much as people standing in place hacking at each other.

The thing that fighting games got right include counters to other moves, and hitstun. When you hit someone in the middle of an attack, they don't just keep going, you interrupt them, this is pretty much critical to preventing combat from becoming stale, because by attacking you must make yourself vulnerable. That and there are natural counters to different strategies, blocks beat attacks, throws beat blocks, attacks beat throws, and so on. Not to mention chip damage, which can hurt the enemy slightly even if they're blocking, which is generally how people in Dark Souls beat out turtles (Usually using bleed weapons which cause the opponent to bleed out if they block too many hits of a bleed weapon or pyromancy, which shields don't always have the best defense against).

It's counter based systems like this that enable games to have depth even long into their lifetimes. A common trouble with WoW and other MMOs is that everyone just uses the most efficient build instead of theme builds, because there's no reason, no benefit to. Either you build to max your output, or you're useless. However having natural counterbalances not only in character builds (so some builds counter others) but in the attacks themselves, is what creates true depth and enables competitive play to flourish.

I don't think anyone can really describe this better than David Sirlin, one of the most intelligent Street Fighter players around.
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponen t.html
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/rock-paper-scissors-in-strategy-games.html

On the whole though I really love what's being done with the project and I'm sorry if I come off as a bit demanding, but personally, a great combat system is what will make or break this MMO for me and a lot of other players, because it is a huge part of basically any gaming experience. To have great combat, we need movement, we need hitstun, we need mixups (different ways to attack that need to be countered differently), we need accurate hitboxes (instead of most MMO's thing where you lock on, perform an attack animation, and whether the enemy walked away or not, they get hit), we need a varied array of normal attacks, we need advanced tactics, we need a significant departure from the traditional ideas of how MMOs should handle combat, or I think we're doomed to bite the dust.

Thanks for listening, and if you can, could you please share what ideas you have for the combat system? I really want this to succeed, and I know you know how to do everything else.

P.S. I'd also like to know what sort of stealth gameplay will go into the making of the rogue and other stealth based classes, if any. Thanks again!

[Andius]

The main developer has said he wants to avoid too much twitch based combat because of bandwith limitations. I believe the exact quote was in context to combat systems such as Darkfall or Mortal Online but I believe what you are suggesting would likely fall under that as well.

I'm a great fan of manually aiming attacks but it looks like something we are going to have to do without in this game.

A fighting style game requiring quick attacks and blocks and stuff would probably fall under the same kind of deal. We are apparently looking at about a one second delay between each ability activation.

[Evilagram]

That's really a shame to hear. Thanks for giving me information though.

I guess this isn't the MMO I've been searching for.

[Marou_]

Andius wrote:

The main developer has said he wants to avoid too much twitch based combat because of bandwith limitations. I believe the exact quote was in context to combat systems such as Darkfall or Mortal Online but I believe what you are suggesting would likely fall under that as well.

I'm a great fan of manually aiming attacks but it looks like something we are going to have to do without in this game.

A fighting style game requiring quick attacks and blocks and stuff would probably fall under the same kind of deal. We are apparently looking at about a one second delay between each ability activation.

He said he didn't want it to be so fast as to limit the number of combatants severely. However, his comments on how he'd like it to work inspires confidence at least that there will be manually activated defensive and/or counter skills. I think ideally we'll end up with something as active as GW2 combat, although Ryan would be the only one to know for sure exactly what they are aiming for.

"Switching up between standard attacks and standard defense" implies that you are actually able to do something to defend, this automatically improves it over standard WoW model where there is no general defensive abilities and everything is merely a skill rotation.

I'd rather have slower paced combat with tactical depth (counters, throws, knockdowns, reactionary chains, blocks, dodges, etc) than DPS race WoW-styled stuff if Vindictus/Tera/C9 type combat is off the table.

Using some type of combatant interlock system (eg, Matrix Online (rudimentary), Neverwinter Nights (rudimentary), Blade and Soul (advanced), etc) lets you have a slower system while making it animate impressively, include tactical depth, and not *look* slow.

[Nihimon]

I would be thrilled if combat were more like Street Fighter than WoW, but I don't think the technology is ready for that yet, and may never be. The speed of light in fiber optics cables dictates latency of at least 3 microseconds per kilometer. There's just no way you can have someone in Texas and someone in Australia interact with each other over the internet in the same way they could if they were standing side-by-side at a Street Fighter console.

[Marou_]

For reference when I'm talking about interlocking with counters and combo chains I'm referring to something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODD790bO2VU

Which exists, so obviously is possible.

[Nihimon]

@Marou_, I was rushing out the door or I'd have posted this as soon as I saw your prior post after submitting my own.

I am 100% in agreement with you with respect to slower paced combat with tactical depth. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "interlocking", and I don't have time to watch a 12 minute video (but if you have a time mark, I'd love to check it out), but it makes me think of what I mean when I talk about being "engaged" in combat with another character.

I don't know how many other people who are looking for more action-based combat would be willing to put up with the slower pace required to play like that over the internet, but I would gladly do so.

Note that I don't think PFO will (or even should necessarily) go this direction. I'm not sure a budget sandbox MMO is the right place to try ground-breaking innovation.

I actually think there's a lot that can be done with tried and true abilities. Vanguard introduced a lot of Reaction abilities, and I think most people handled them fairly well. I think those kinds of abilities would go a long way towards making combat feel like there's more tactical depth.

[Marou_]

Nihimon wrote:

@Marou_, I was rushing out the door or I'd have posted this as soon as I saw your prior post after submitting my own.

I am 100% in agreement with you with respect to slower paced combat with tactical depth. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "interlocking", and I don't have time to watch a 12 minute video (but if you have a time mark, I'd love to check it out), but it makes me think of what I mean when I talk about being "engaged" in combat with another character.

I don't know how many other people who are looking for more action-based combat would be willing to put up with the slower pace required to play like that over the internet, but I would gladly do so.

Note that I don't think PFO will (or even should necessarily) go this direction. I'm not sure a budget sandbox MMO is the right place to try ground-breaking innovation.

I actually think there's a lot that can be done with tried and true abilities. Vanguard introduced a lot of Reaction abilities, and I think most people handled them fairly well. I think those kinds of abilities would go a long way towards making combat feel like there's more tactical depth.

Sure, linked with timestamp where you can see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ODD790bO2VU#t= 164s

[Nihimon]

That looks a lot like Street Fighter.

I would probably enjoy something like that, but it's far more important to me to have a lot of depth in my character than it is to have better graphics or combat.

[Marou_]

Nihimon wrote:

That looks a lot like Street Fighter.

I would probably enjoy something like that, but it's far more important to me to have a lot of depth in my character than it is to have better graphics or combat.

Art direction and animation quality trumps high res 3d graphics any day. You can animate stick figures to look awesome while they fight, and you can make a 2d game jaw dropping and stunning.

So, art and animation quality mean quite a bit to me; "HIGH DEF" 3D graphics mean nothing. Especially when the art and animation quality is severely lacking (see Secret World).

/edit: What you're seeing there in Blade and Soul is on about a 1 second refresh rate. You just can't tell because of how all the animations are meshed together. Meaning, you got about a second to see something coming and respond. Definitely not fighting game or FPS levels of dexterity, but far more engaging than a DPS race.

What kills me about B&S is it's Yet Another Theme Park. So, awesome combat or not, I know once it actually comes out and I'm not playing some shoddy foreign language beta client I'll get bored of it within 2 months regardless.

Tera is realtime realtime, and it kills me for the same reason. The gameplay is awesome, and it's Yet Another Theme Park with boring content.

[Misere]

But those are trailers not actual gameplay. Doesn't that make some kind of difference? You can show lots of fantastic stuff in a cinematic trailer.

"What kills me about B&S is it's Yet Another Theme Park. So, awesome combat or not, I know once it actually comes out and I'm not playing some shoddy foreign language beta client I'll get bored of it within 2 months regardless"

And this. I agree

[Marou_]

Misere wrote:

But those are trailers not actual gameplay. Doesn't that make some kind of difference? You can show lots of fantastic stuff in a cinematic trailer.

"What kills me about B&S is it's Yet Another Theme Park. So, awesome combat or not, I know once it actually comes out and I'm not playing some shoddy foreign language beta client I'll get bored of it within 2 months regardless"

And this. I agree

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl327QZBCic&feature=player_detailpage#t= 273s

You can see it's split into defensive and offensive skills with a context area showing skills available depending on where you are in a chain, what attack is being used on you, or your orientation versus your opponent. Avoiding attacks is active, aiming is not.

[Misere]

That actually looks pretty good. Love the dodging and blocking. I wonder how it plays in pvp combat as opposed to the scripted pve stuff.

[GrumpyMel]

For me, the ideal style system would be a "pseudo-round" style system, paced slow enough (say 3-5 seconds) that you had enough time to select your action for the round.

For "actions" they'd be some sort of offensive/defensive manuver that had bonuses and penalties against other manuvers... depending upon the results of your manuver (and that of your opponents) it would effect the type of manuvers you and your opponent had access to in the next "round"

If anyone remembers the "Lost Worlds" system of combat books (http://www.gamebooks.org/lwfclist.htm), something that worked like that would be awesome. Anyway, that's my wish-list.... no idea how PFO will turn out...hopefully it'll offer some deep tactical combat decision making.

[Marou_]

Misere wrote:

That actually looks pretty good. Love the dodging and blocking. I wonder how it plays in pvp combat as opposed to the scripted pve stuff.

Really chaotic, heh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vHpx4Alk2IU#t= 234s

[Valkenr]

@ OP

The system you wan't isn't possible... if the developers want to be nice to people, and charge a standard rate. Human reaction time is ~200ms, so if both parties are operating at 50msm, the servers where top of the line, and there are less than 20 people fighting in the same area, it would be possible.

DCUO had gone about as far as you can, and you'll notice the game is mostly instanced, because handling combo/block systems in large scale combat is out of any MMO that plans to charge $15/month's budget. You would need the equivalent of a 30 man FPS server for every 15 players in the world. I'm waiting to see how TERA handles action combat, I'll find out this weekend.

Sadly, the best system for large scale conflict in an open world, is a spell casting system, where everything operates on a global cooldown with longer animations. Hopefully GW can work out some way to make this not so, because frankly, I'm tired of casting spells to use my sword.

[stealthbr]

The game I played that had the coolest and most engaging combat system is without a doubt Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

[Marou_]

It handles it amazingly actually, and it's more fully action than even B&S or DCUO. I've been in a couple beta weekends, and the combat and action is spectacular. The content and everything else is very shallow.

[Brady Blankemeyer]

I'd only cast Magic Missile since that has a higher chance of hitting ...

But I did okay with Darkfall aiming, archery felt odd for me. Some spells had splash effects so I was aiming at the ground more then anything near targets. Darkfall had decent graphics which I guess was designed that way so it wouldn't add to the load when trying to fight or have big siege battles. Less focus on graphics more on mechanics of the game.

Sad part is in a game like Darkfall, you would really need a range attack of some kind as fights were done with magic or archery. Melee would have a disadvantage of being damaged before they could close in on the target, that is if they avoided spells that slowed, stun, or trapped them in some way. I've seen some great melee fights it's just the skill on getting to them, which can be done if you're graceful with your jumping/sliding moves.

Tera - I tried it as a priest, left click for one spell over and over right click if you needed to heal. Eventually you got combo spells, but it wasn't as engaging to me, but then again I only managed to get to level 15 till beta ended so after that it could of gotten a lot better. Just wasn't engaging enough to restart my guy again on the next beta.

[MicMan]

The most important thing in combat are valid and balanced choices.

In WoW there is usually no choice. You try to get off your chain and fire your reactionaries and that is it.

So the problem is not the roles that PCs are being pressed into but that the roles are so fixed that there are no or very few choices necessary.

There is a reason why Blizzard never managed to get a real professional WoW arena scene going (like SC, LoL or CS). I guess even Diablo III will be more successful in this field.

That was what I liked in DAoC PvP, the choices there were real because casters could not cast while being beaten! This ment that you had to position yourself well and constantly assess the situation (do I cast another spell and, if yes, which or do I need to prekite). This also balanced out melees and casters very well. It also gave healers something to do because interrupting a caster was more valuable than trying to outheal his damage.

[DarkLightHitomi]

going back to opening post, I think you can prevent efficiency race without going twitch combat. The idea is make abilities and powers able to counter others. then its a matter of how you want to fight and less of have to fight this way or die. rock/paper/scissors

[Tasarak]

MicMan wrote:

That was what I liked in DAoC PvP, the choices there were real because casters could not cast while being beaten! This ment that you had to position yourself well and constantly assess the situation (do I cast another spell and, if yes, which or do I need to prekite). This also balanced out melees and casters very well. It also gave healers something to do because interrupting a caster was more valuable than trying to outheal his damage.

That is the beauty of their combat system. It's about hard interrupts for casters, positioning/styles for melee classes. In order to be successful, everyone needed to be aware of their adversaries race/class & abilities, in order to counter or position themselves to damage/heal/debuff/mezz/stun etc. The rolling combat was one that I preferred.

[Scarlette]

MicMan wrote:

That was what I liked in DAoC PvP, the choices there were real because casters could not cast while being beaten! This ment that you had to position yourself well and constantly assess the situation (do I cast another spell and, if yes, which or do I need to prekite). This also balanced out melees and casters very well. It also gave healers something to do because interrupting a caster was more valuable than trying to outheal his damage.

DAoC was the best PvP I have played. Reactionaries, position, knowing the enemy all made an impact. Double damage to sitting characters, you guys don't know how much I miss that.