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Was wondering how people view Noleski (N) and Natala (LE). I couldnt seem to find further information about these two other than what is printed out in Stolen Land. With the lack of stats and personality traits it leaves these two wide open for us to make them however we want. From what I have been reading alot of people view Noleski as some sort of despot. Why couldnt he simply be the victim that is being controlled and manipulated by his sister? Or is actually power mad and is willing to do whatever he can to seize it (up to a point of course).
How do you view these two?
Greetings, fellow traveller.
I see Noleski being dominated (no magic involved) by Natala. She is the mastermind in the background, planning, scheming and manipulating the realm for her benefit.
Mind you, Noleski is no innocent either, being a Surtova after all.
What I find interesting is the actual non-reaction towards the Swordlords giving out chartas to (srew secrecy, if you can have a spymaster and a net of informants, so does familiy Surtova) bands of adventurers and even minor nobles from Brevoy itself. *shrugs*
For my campaign Brevoy and its different houses do not play a role (yet) - knowing and watching my players would hack their way to heroism, incorporating the level and layers of intrigue presented in the books, would not fit to their style of play.
Ruyan.
Wanting power does not make you evil. The Swordlords want power, and that drive is what kicks off the AP. Noleski wants to keep his power, and it willing to use typical means to keep it. "Typical" for an absolute monarch with a N alignment would include threats and brutal war, but not nessecarily assassins or treachery.
In my game, he's keeping a delicate balance of not letting any of the other houses get too powerful. For example, Orlovsky is on the rise and Garess is in decline, so therefore the throne is taxing Orlovsky more heavily and giving aid to Garess. So long as things are somewhat balanced, no-one can move against the Throne.
As far as the specific relationship you mentioned: I blame Game of Thrones for this line of reasoning, but in my game, they are secret lovers, and Natala wants to be pregnant with his bastard before she'll let him take a legitamite wife.
Funny, I considered Natala and Noleski having an inappropriate relationship too, although I was thinking of the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz - King Imre and his sister Ariella, and their baby. But I didn't go that way. Probably because the Game of Thrones version made it something that two of my players would suspect.
In my campaign, Natala is several years older than Noleski. She helped raise her little brother, and still feels that she should have authority over him.
Noleski is growing to resent Natala's control. He is also very interested in Elanna Lebeda - they're steadily moving toward an official engagement and then marriage - and Noleski kind of wants Natala "out of the house" by the time of the marriage. He doesn't want her married off to someone who spends lots of time at court in New Stetven, either, so he came to a big Founders Day gala in Restov to (among other things) quietly check out possible spouses for Natala.
None of the male PCs are really credible at this point as people he'd consider marrying Natala off to. I don't really think he'd consider Maegar Varn, either. Maybe I could delay things a bit - let Noleski get married and then have the Natala-Elanna rivalry become an increasing problem, and he doesn't seriously consider just marrying her off until a few years later (when one of the PCs might be a viable candidate, both because of their increasing level/power and because of Noleski lowering his standards as he gets more and more irritated with bib sis... But I really don't think this is likely to work out. Currently, I'm looking through the various noble and wealthy folks in my PCs' backgrounds to see if there's anything useful there.
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I am just starting to map out the politics of Brevoy, which were somewhat over my head at first until I really sat down and read everything I could on the nation. I too am not sure exactly how to portray the king and his sister, but I do like some of the ideas that are presented here.
I don't think I like the idea that they are secret lovers. While that does fall under evil behavior, I think she would resort to other measures. She may go so far as to find a way to kill her brother, or at least make him infertile and unable to produce a proper heir. I think she would value her reputation very highly, and having an illegitimate son with her brother would certainly harm her reputation. She seems more stealthy, covert, and subtle. I almost peg her as someone who work with secret societies or cults, but that would be taking it too far.
As for Noleski, I haven't a clue. I imagine he is competent and able to handle himself with the politics of his nation, but blind to his sister's evil way and manipulation. It may be because he loves her and refuses to think she has anything but his best interests in mind.
I am curious to hear what the Paizo staff has to say about the king and his sister, as well as what is supposed to go on in Brevoy during Kingmaker.
I'm curious why someone would think sibling lovers is evil, it seems more Chaotic, anti-establishment to me. After all most Ancient Egyptian pharaohs were married to their siblings and that in and of itself I can't think of as being considered evil.
In my game, I needed some form of movement to happen with the possible rebellion. So I'm having the Surtovas accuse the people in the land of the Orlovskys of sedition and plotting a rebellion after overwhelming taxastion didn't work and then instituting the Hunger Games in their territory. Its definitely extreme, but I don't see it as completely out of character for Natala.
My players like the movie, one of them has family in the region. And its sure to stir the pot. About half of my group is pro-Surtova and the other is undecided, so I think they got the wrong impression from the player's guide. This might sway them some, plus one of them is a Surtova bastard.
Thoughts?
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I'm curious why someone would think sibling lovers is evil, it seems more Chaotic, anti-establishment to me. After all most Ancient Egyptian pharaohs were married to their siblings and that in and of itself I can't think of as being considered evil.
I consider incest evil because it is selfish, unnecessary, and unhealthy for all involved. It is almost always done in private, and except in extreme cases there are always options outside of family. Except in very rare cases, it starts from pride and lust and obsession. Those that initiate it have lusted after their desire for a while. It would be evil for Natala because she is doing it for selfish and prideful reasons. If she is doing it, it is because she refuses to give up her power and position. She lusts after what she already has but will lose. In the end she would bring harm to her family, and more then likely disease to her progeny. She may have her power, but more then likely her decision will also ruin needed allegiances, and cause allies to withdraw support. The balance of power will be upset, and war will fall upon Brevoy. A war that her family will probably not win. She should know all this, and sheer amount of lust and pride to still take such action would be evil.
Plus we think it's icky. ^_^ Back to subject at hand... GO!
I'z got nothin' yet. Will continue to ponder the matter.
That makes sense I was thinking in terms they were in love with each other and society told them no while it was OK in other societies where it was not considered bad. So I am looking at it as a societal issue that doesn't harm anyone but those involved. Just as say Polygamy may be OK in some societies and not others,. Or what seems really appalling marrying 12 year olds OK in some (medieval England, ancient Rome, etc) and not others. But, if they are doing it for manipulation or power then yeah OK it's evil.
Let's not derail this otherwise excellent brainstorming thread with another "let's define evil" argument. We can all agree that it would be "strange in Brevoy to sleep with your sibling" (unless it isn't in your home campaign) and that's enough.
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Agreed. My point was meant to be that she wouldn't do that, not because the act is evil but because she probably has a plan and has thought out fully the consequences for that plan. Lawful Evil types typically have a few plans in place, and do all they can to follow the one that is both easy to follow and the most productive to their goals. I imagine she has thought over all of her possible moves, and chosen the one that keeps her reputation mostly intact.
She may still marry a close relative, and if she does it would be one that is either next in line for the crown or close enough in line that she could make arrangements. A cousin or second cousin that has great influence but would also be easily controled. This would be more acceptable in such societies, as keeping the power within the family often means you keep marriage within the family.
In fact, I feel that would be what I go with in terms of how she plans on keeping power. Once married, or maybe not long before the marriage, she would remove her brother. There are many ways for her to do so, especially if you consider magic being involved. If her new husband isn't next in line then she would wait patiently until she could remove whoever is between her and the throne.
Remember, in Brevoy power passes from man to man. If her brother dies she loses her position as queen unless she has married the next man in line. If her brother marries, she loses her position as queen as well. If both happen, she will need to remove the queen and any heirs produced in order to have a shot.
Another option is that she finds a woman for her brother to marry that she can control and manipulate. She wouldn't have the title of queen, but she could at least be a power behind the throne. This might actually be a great idea because then she could more easily hide her involvement if the Survotas lose a civil war. She might even have a much higher chance of escaping execution if things do go that far.
I don't think she loves her brother. I think she views him as a tool to gain what she wants. She has tasted the power of being queen and loves that. She realizes though, especially with another house trying to marry off a daughter to Noleski, that her position is temporary and will not last for many more years. She needs to act soon if she wishes to keep her crown, and her actions could very well be what shifts the power balance in Brevoy one way or the other.
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In my game, I needed some form of movement to happen with the possible rebellion. So I'm having the Surtovas accuse the people in the land of the Orlovskys of sedition and plotting a rebellion after overwhelming taxastion didn't work and then instituting the Hunger Games in their territory. Its definitely extreme, but I don't see it as completely out of character for Natala. [/qoute]Only thing would be how she justifies this to the King. If it makes sense to "him" then run with it. However doing something like this might actually work against her and "Nick" as the various Houses might take offense, as well as the common folk. Guess it all depends on how Natala handles this. Does the game only involve "rebels and criminals against the crown" or does it go a step farther and grab anybody in the area?
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Lots of interesting thoughts about these two. It seems that Natala is the easier of the two to define, with the common consensus that she is highly intelligent. I too am thinking that way, and as such here is what I think she is like.
The back story that I am giving her is that in her past she was Lawful Neutral. She had accepted her place in society and realized what her duties where to her husband (which she married at an early age). What house she married into at the moment I am still working on. However said husband was very cruel to her and not so bright. At first he treated her with kindness and love, but as time went on he realized that she wasn't producing an heir for him. Add to this the clumsy mistakes he continued to make on his subjects caused Natala to open her eyes not only to the intelligence level of her husband, but that of nobility that surrounded her. It is at this point that she starts to chaff against traditions that rulers can only be men. She is also contacted by an agent of Norgorber who starts whispering ideas of needing to change the laws to allow female rule, among other things.
A couple of years later Natala is still childless. Her resentment by the way she is being treated has caused her alignment to start shifting as she begins manipulating her husband when she can into correct courses of political action. Her husband in the meantime "impregnates" one of the local villagers. Upon finding out about this he determines his wife is barren and cannot produce any heirs, yet he cannot have a bastard be his heir apparent. He discovers this in the presence of Natala, which of course creates a fight and further division between the two. He accuses her of being worthless and not even a woman, as it is her fault that they don't have any children. The husband then leaves in a fit of rage to go get a drink. He decides to confront the mother of his lovechild to have her deny that the child is his.
When he arrives however he discovers his baby momma is with the local miller's son, alone. They both are acting affectionate to each other when the Lord arrives, which then sends him into a murderous rage. The miller's son does the best that he can against his Lord, but is knocked unconscious by the Lord. He in turn becomes very physical against the young lady, beating her around like a rag doll (which kills the baby). The miller's son comes to and upon seeing the Lord in a murderous rage decides to act. Thus grabbing a random weapon of some type and launching an attack against the Lord, killing him. The two then flee the area.
Of course this all falls into the plan of the Agent of Norgorber, who is the one that arranged all of the parties to meet each other at various times, and assisted in creating the love triangle. The Agent also knew that it was in fact the Lord who was impudent, and slipped a drug to cloud judgment in the Lord's drink.
Since the argument was done in public (guess who sent the note) speculation is placed on Natala for the murder of her husband. Natala proclaims her innocence at every turn, and no evidence is discovered linking her to the crime. The family members of the two households (miller’s son and the young lady) both discover a note that the young lovers have decided to make their own way in the world due to their parents not giving their blessing of their love. In truth both of those two are dead, killed by henchmen of the Agent; their bodies never found. The family of the Lord decides to send Natala back to her family, while stripping her of any claim to their lands. Natala’s disgrace causes her now to seethe in resentment on how she is treated. During this period the Agent reveals themselves to her, starting her instruction on the ways of Norgorber, informing her that Norgorber only wants to create order out of chaos, and wants everyone to have equal rights under the laws. Them also state that at times they have to do undesirable acts in order to remove those who attempt to block the “Good for All’ to occur.
Natala’s fall into Lawful Evil is complete about a week after Ascendance Night when the Agent leads her to her ex-husband’s lover (a lie of course), and hands her a dagger dripping with venom to plunge into the heart who caused her dishonor and public humiliation. She kills the girl with no hesitation (the Agent wouldn’t lie to her right?), and is made a member of the clergy at that point. The Agent “gifts” her the dagger (of venom) as well as a magical harp to place any suggestion into the minds of those listening, including her brother (who is currently Lord of Port Ice).
The motivation of the Agent is to establish a church in Bevroy. They have no fore knowledge what so ever of the Vanishing, and seek to influence the current King by controlling Noleski. They keep Natala thinking (and thus the general public) that she is barren by slipping in a birth control drug in case she gets the urge.
Natala herself does love her brother, but she has no issue with crossing him if he reacts in a way that she sees is best. She views most as stupid insects, and has learned to manipulate others with the teachings of the Agent. She does hope to be in love one day, but with a man she can respect, and when she is firmly in power and on her terms. In her eyes the Realm serves her, or no one.
In my campaign, I had Noleski be the misunderstood and beleagured ruler with Natala being the schemer desperate to hold onto her own regency (since she would lose power if her brother ever married). When they found out about the Swordlords' charter, Natala sent their annoying cousin Cazimir along for the ride with the PCs once they began setting up their first town. I had a subplot of Cazimir being a rightful Rogarvia heir and Natala had found this out. The players hated Cazimir because they thought he was working for/with the Surtovas, but when they found out the truth he became a much more sympathetic character. Soon after, he was killed on a hunting trip.
The subplot didn't go anywhere else after that, but it didn't need to. It had already helped form the players' opinion of the political situation back in Brevoy and potentially set up future campaign events after the end of Kingmaker.
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Has anyone read the 6th adventure and the backmatter? In the "Continuing the Adventure," section there is a part that talks about war with Brevoy. Noleski is written as decisive, cunning, wily, and merciless. He also is somewhat of a bully in the section, as he moves his armies right up to borders with messengers ahead of them to give both Restov and the PC kingdom a, "Surrender or die," message. He also is depicted as someone who can convince a dragon not to kill him outright and instead attack the PCs.
Natala isn't talked about in that section, which suggests that she isn't as important as we all have been discussing.
With the additional information I now see Noleski holding onto his kingdom with both his armies, and a sense of who he can make an ally through marriage, money, or gifts of power. He lacks the natural ability to make people like him, and is further harmed by his love for power and wealth. He has enough strong allies and supporters to hold onto the army, and his ability to keep them satisfied and friendly to him is powerful enough to make it nearly impossible to turn them from him. He isn't evil, which means he doesn't tax mercilessly or place heavy burden on his people, but he isn't good either and that means he doesn't go out of his way to make their lives better. He is growing older, and both his sense of mortality and the threat of civil war from the south have made him consider producing an heir. In the light of that, Elanna Lebeda and her family have begun to make moves towards a marriage between her and Noleski, which would further unite alliance between the two families and make the civil war all that much more impossible. Noleski finds Elanna to be beautiful and would not refuse the idea of marriage with her if presented with it, but at the moment his sister has him distracted with other women and potential brides.
I've used Noleski as a proud diplomatic Issian and an accomplished swordsman to boot (I fleshed out his sheet according to the books).
One of the PCs in my game is a Orlovsky Noble Born from a sidebranch of the family (her father was the younger brother to the family's patriarch), and she had been groomed to marry Noleski in an effort to resolve their differences (the patriarch itself didn't even know of the wedding and wouldn't agree with it). The girl, though, had dreams of being an Aldori and had trained a lot with a tutor.
During the negotiations of the wedding, they had a heated argument (fueled by wine and pride from both sides) and agreed on a simple private friendly duel which ended with Noleski dropped at 0 HP and calling his guards, and her jumping out the window and stealing a horse.
She went on to adopt a different name and get a charter from Restov and you'll know how it went. The entire thing was hushed, since Noleski wouldn't admit he had lost a swordfight to a woman (I made him a little sexist since I wanted the PC to fully hate him), and a couple months later, the deal was signed again, but this time the PCs younger brother was agreed to marry Natala. She is now pregnant with his child and he is being sent to the PC's kingdom with a "Cease and Desist" notice, without knowing the Duchess is actually his sister.
I used both as a cold calculating couple. He's a little more hot-tempered, she's more controlled, but they cooperate fully (she actually manipulates him easily into whatever course is best for her plan). Since my players all watch Game of Thrones I've dropped a few hints of incest (of which I do not even know if they're true) and they seemed to bite.
A recent Assassination Attempt has traced back to him (the killer was promised 20.000 gp, a title and lands at northern Brevoy), and the PCs now fully hate him and probably plan to face him sometime. The promise was fully bogus, though, made by another certain party (you'll know what I mean) after his man Grigori failed to do the trick.
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Has anyone read the 6th adventure and the backmatter? In the "Continuing the Adventure," section there is a part that talks about war with Brevoy. Noleski is written as decisive, cunning, wily, and merciless. He also is somewhat of a bully in the section, as he moves his armies right up to borders with messengers ahead of them to give both Restov and the PC kingdom a, "Surrender or die," message. He also is depicted as someone who can convince a dragon not to kill him outright and instead attack the PCs.
Natala isn't talked about in that section, which suggests that she isn't as important as we all have been discussing.
With the additional information I now see Noleski holding onto his kingdom with both his armies, and a sense of who he can make an ally through marriage, money, or gifts of power. He lacks the natural ability to make people like him, and is further harmed by his love for power and wealth. He has enough strong allies and supporters to hold onto the army, and his ability to keep them satisfied and friendly to him is powerful enough to make it nearly impossible to turn them from him. He isn't evil, which means he doesn't tax mercilessly or place heavy burden on his people, but he isn't good either and that means he doesn't go out of his way to make their lives better. He is growing older, and both his sense of mortality and the threat of civil war from the south have made him consider producing an heir. In the light of that, Elanna Lebeda and her family have begun to make moves towards a marriage between her and Noleski, which would further unite alliance between the two families and make the civil war all that much more impossible. Noleski finds Elanna to be beautiful and would not refuse the idea of marriage with her if presented with it, but at the moment his sister has him distracted with other women and potential brides.
We could still make Natala more important, just let something happen to her before book 6.
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Of course, and in my own game I am going to try and find some way to make her important. Each game is going to have different needs and thus each GM will have a different take on brother and sister rulers. I am just a stickler for using all the information I can find when deciding how to move forward.
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Of course, and in my own game I am going to try and find some way to make her important. Each game is going to have different needs and thus each GM will have a different take on brother and sister rulers. I am just a stickler for using all the information I can find when deciding how to move forward.
Me too. I like to take "Canon" -- info that comes from Paizo -- before I extrapolate.
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In my own game, I made each of the Houses a Duchy with Barons under them, so I could add to the number of noble houses in Brevoy and create a Game of Thrones type feel to the AP. Several of the northern houses (Orlovsky and Medvyed) are secretly aligning against Surtova, attempting to block his attempt to legitimately take the throne (hes only a regent officially). They are binding their houses together by marriages through the strongest banner house under Orlovsky (which happens to be the family one of my players was from). The lands near Restov which used to be in the Duchy of Rogarvia, have been in a state of unrest and petty squabbling since the royal family disappeared and left no senior ruling house. Surtova is hesitant to step in and endanger his efforts to become king until he solidifies his position, so it leaves a whole section of Brevoy open for minor warfare, feuding noble houses, and strife between the barons and the swordlords. I expanded the swordlords to have a council of ruling families, though the swordlords do not rule, having been the old noble families supplanted by House Rogarvia and forced to live in fortified villas in the south with private armies.
So far, everything is perfectly balanced and there is no civil war going on (much like the beginning of Game of Thrones). Orlovsky and Medvyed would very much like to add Lebeda to their secret alliance, but right now the matriarch of that house is attempting to parlay her station into becoming part of the royal family. Needless to say, Natala is probably going to let jealousy get the better of her and arrange an accident for Elena, which could start things rolling. In our Golarion, Natala admires Queen Abrogail and would like nothing better to emulate her reign in Brevoy. She has her own secret alliances to help make this happen, including a heretical branch of the church of Abadar(LE) which is the dominant religion in our Brevoy. Noleski is not very politically sophisticated and is very much attached to the luxury and accolades which everyone must shower him with. He is also completely guided by his sister, though this could change when he gets married soon.
There are several other upcoming "flashpoint" events that could lead to war, one of which will happen at the Grand Tourney in Brevoy, a major social and status event that the PCs have recently been invited to attend. I plan to start the serious entangling with Brevic politics at the Tourney as well as introduce a LOT of new NPCs and give the party a chance to gain some fame and make their own connections.
Oleg was Sir Oleg, a older knight that soon retired to start an outpost in the Stolen Lands with one of the prettiest kitchen cooks at the Baron's castle. Falgrim Sneed was an obnoxious young knight who was nasty to the party, and later fell out of favor and fled south to start up a life of banditry. These early connections got my players involved with some of the story plot right away, as they tend to be a bit complacent otherwise at times.
Since they have established a kingdom in the south, I keep them appraised via their spymaster of what events are happening among the nobility in Brevoy, but there has already been conflict and treachery that dragged the party into Brevoy politics in Rogarvian lands, especially since the queen in our game is a swordlord's daughter. She has received several marriage offers, each with benefits but also unpleasant entanglements politically.
As a side anecdote, it seems to be that if you extend the AP timeline out and parallel the Game of Thrones, you could consider the player's kingdom to sort of be like the Wall in the North, stopping the invasion of an alien army (Nyrissa in Kingmaker AP). Like GoT, everyone is too busy with petty squabbles to notice the scary things coming from the Stolen lands.
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In my own game, I made each of the Houses a Duchy with Barons under them, so I could add to the number of noble houses in Brevoy and create a Game of Thrones type feel to the AP. Several of the northern houses (Orlovsky and Medvyed) are secretly aligning against Surtova, attempting to block his attempt to legitimately take the throne (hes only a regent officially). They are binding their houses together by marriages through the strongest banner house under Orlovsky (which happens to be the family one of my players was from). The lands near Restov which used to be in the Duchy of Rogarvia, have been in a state of unrest and petty squabbling since the royal family disappeared and left no senior ruling house. Surtova is hesitant to step in and endanger his efforts to become king until he solidifies his position, so it leaves a whole section of Brevoy open for minor warfare, feuding noble houses, and strife between the barons and the swordlords. I expanded the swordlords to have a council of ruling families, though the swordlords do not rule, having been the old noble families supplanted by House Rogarvia and forced to live in fortified villas in the south with private armies.
So far, everything is perfectly balanced and there is no civil war going on (much like the beginning of Game of Thrones). Orlovsky and Medvyed would very much like to add Lebeda to their secret alliance, but right now the matriarch of that house is attempting to parlay her station into becoming part of the royal family. Needless to say, Natala is probably going to let jealousy get the better of her and arrange an accident for Elena, which could start things rolling. In our Golarion, Natala admires Queen Abrogail and would like nothing better to emulate her reign in Brevoy. She has her own secret alliances to help make this happen, including a heretical branch of the church of Abadar(LE) which is the dominant religion in our Brevoy. Noleski is not very politically sophisticated and is very much attached to the luxury and accolades...
Hey Red, can you email me your version of Brevoy as it sounds very close to mine but I've only just started mine. All of my pcs except one are Orlovsky kin cousins etc. I also have one that Maybe the last R. ( a big maybe). So far I think they have applauded the political under current happening in the campaign. My email is in my profile. Thanks Red!
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Iobaria is Russian. Think Renaissance Italy for Brevoy I think with a smattering of eastern european from Iobaria and some Taldan (England) influence as well since the Taldans were the original settlers.
I made most of the nobles and swordlords have Italian sounding names, tossing in some Iobarian influence where appropriate. Villagers, commoners, etc still stuck to their roots, and all had names appropriate to old english, ie - Tom, James, Richard, Elizabeth, Anne, etc. Merchants could be either, with those most successful taking on Brevic (Italian) sounding names as their station improved. I don't think Taldan names follow this pattern by canon, however since I associate Taldor with Colonial British Empire, I use it in my games. This naming worked for our group, and the party took advantage of the naming convention several times, including to go undercover as commoners by changing their names, etc.
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Iobaria is Russian. Think Renaissance Italy for Brevoy I think with a smattering of eastern european from Iobaria and some Taldan (England) influence as well since the Taldans were the original settlers.
I made most of the nobles and swordlords have Italian sounding names, tossing in some Iobarian influence where appropriate. Villagers, commoners, etc still stuck to their roots, and all had names appropriate to old english, ie - Tom, James, Richard, Elizabeth, Anne, etc. Merchants could be either, with those most successful taking on Brevic (Italian) sounding names as their station improved. I don't think Taldan names follow this pattern by canon, however since I associate Taldor with Colonial British Empire, I use it in my games. This naming worked for our group, and the party took advantage of the naming convention several times, including to go undercover as commoners by changing their names, etc.
Cool Red, can't wait to get your email.