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So lately we've seen a lot of discussions and calls to offenders about min-maxing, optimizing, roleplaying, ruining the game, org play and beer. The beer doesn't really have anything to do with the rest directly, but still.
And so as someone who would probably be judged as an "offender" (as would the group I play with) simply by looking at our sheets...I am throwing my opinions in the ring.
The crux of my opinion...play the game as you will. It.Is.A.Game.
The corrollary to my opinion...have fun and aim to help other have fun too...no matter how you build your character.
Do you want to be a jack-of-all-trades/master of nothing who rolls out with 12s and 14s and is successful half the time and needs to be rescued from near-death by the hero the other half? Awesome, have a blast playing the would-be superstar who juuuust can't quite get there...honestly, it's a good, well-rounded schtick.
Do you want to be a One-Trick-Pony Nackle, due to the fact that you are playing a crazy-@$$ gnome who really thinks he's a pony who can only do one trick and who's best stats are Cha and Int, but took levels in Fighter? You have fun with that...seriously, as long as I'm not playing in the world's hardest death-rally, I would love to be at a table with you.
Do you want to be a min-max, flying, bomb-dropping, 25 rage-per-day barbarian who wields 4 keen falchions, has 18 attacks a round and has more HP than a geek has action figures?? Awesome, I will let you wade into battle before me and have fun RPing in the background if I'm not as strong as you. Again, have a blast with it.
Do you want to be a skill-monkey bardic rogue who picks locks while playing a drum with your third hand and inspiring the masses of virginal lasses while diplomacizing the king and giving us a lecture on all the knowledges of the world...while performing acrobatic feats? Awesome once more...be in my party...sounds like fun.
In all seriousness...I really think we need to knock off the "optimzation sucks" threads. Jason S (who just happens to share my first name and last initial, as well as at least some of this opinion it seems) put it well when he said this is really more about "the player" not "the character". My group tends to play cracked-out characters. We enjoy building characters that are "uber"...sometimes on their own...sometimes because the three of us specifically who play often meld together in a wicked synergy. People have complained that we are too powerful...and then I laugh like the Emperor and force-lightning them.
And yes, we have characters that could probably finish certain year zero mods solo...with only one leg and arm. But we also know how to play nice with others...we paid attention in Kindergarten you know.
For instance...we have three barbarians that can carve through enemies like 'butta', but when we're at a con with less-optimized characters, we'll hold back as long as we're not going to get killed doing so. We have spent entire mods before without swinging a weapon and instead grappling and cornering enemies so a weak ninja and a weaker neg-energy cleric could do their thing happily. And you know what? We all had fun.
Because all the players made it fun. Optimized characters fraternized with newbie heroes who had no idea how to build a character...and the Earth didn't implode and the table didn't run away sad or angry.
Why? Because of the players...not the characters.
So, here's is my plea to the smart masses out there...end the hate on character builds! Instead, support free-thinking creation of your own hero or heroine and support the idea that players make the game fun no matter what character they bring to the table!
And if you are still reading to this point...thanks, that was long. :)
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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So lately we've seen a lot of discussions and calls to offenders about min-maxing, optimizing, roleplaying, ruining the game, org play and beer. The beer doesn't really have anything to do with the rest directly, but still.
And so as someone who would probably be judged as an "offender" (as would the group I play with) simply by looking at our sheets...I am throwing my opinions in the ring.
The crux of my opinion...play the game as you will. It.Is.A.Game.
The corrollary to my opinion...have fun and aim to help other have fun too...no matter how you build your character.
Do you want to be a jack-of-all-trades/master of nothing who rolls out with 12s and 14s and is successful half the time and needs to be rescued from near-death by the hero the other half? Awesome, have a blast playing the would-be superstar who juuuust can't quite get there...honestly, it's a good, well-rounded schtick.
Do you want to be a One-Trick-Pony Nackle, due to the fact that you are playing a crazy-@$$ gnome who really thinks he's a pony who can only do one trick and who's best stats are Cha and Int, but took levels in Fighter? You have fun with that...seriously, as long as I'm not playing in the world's hardest death-rally, I would love to be at a table with you.
Do you want to be a min-max, flying, bomb-dropping, 25 rage-per-day barbarian who wields 4 keen falchions, has 18 attacks a round and has more HP than a geek has action figures?? Awesome, I will let you wade into battle before me and have fun RPing in the background if I'm not as strong as you. Again, have a blast with it.
Do you want to be a skill-monkey bardic rogue who picks locks while playing a drum with your third hand and inspiring the masses of virginal lasses while diplomacizing the king and giving us a lecture on all the knowledges of the world...while performing acrobatic feats? Awesome once more...be in my party...sounds like fun.
In all seriousness...I really think we need to knock off the "optimzation sucks" threads. Jason S (who just happens...
Thanks for the reminder that not all "min/max" characters are run by jerk players with little regard for other players. You are right, good sir. This is more of an issue of the player than the character build. May others learn from your example. You don't have to "win" at Pathfinder to enjoy a good game! And if your form of enjoyment trounces on the fun of another player, it's not the fault of the character build, its the fault of the player. Don't be a jerk!
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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The crux of my opinion...play the game as you will. It.Is.A.Game.
I agree with the moral of your tale. People's issues aren't really with the characters (good, bad, or ugly) but with the people playing them.
- Be the optimized guy who kicks butt, but don't be the guy who makes the rest of his group feel like bystanders. ("I practically soloed that adventure!")
- Suggest feats and spells you think would work well with someone's character, but don't insult them because their class, race, feats, or weapons aren't optimized. ("Your cleric of Iomedae doesn't have a wand of infernal healing? You're just gimping our group!")
- Play your character the way you want, but don't make your teammates save you from getting killed in every fight.
- Plan effectively, but don't metagame to make things a cakewalk ("We haven't run into anything too tough yet, so we need to buff before we enter the next section: There's sure to be a boss encounter.")
- Feel free to optimize your character, but don't whine when your one-trick pony finds himself out of his element. ("I can't charge them through the waist-deep water?! That's a crock!")
- Build creatively, but don't abuse the rules to do so.
Venture-Lieutenant, South Dakota—Rapid City
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The crux of my opinion...play the game as you will. It.Is.A.Game.I agree with the moral of your tale. People's issues aren't really with the characters (good, bad, or ugly) but with the people playing them.
- Be the optimized guy who kicks butt, but don't be the guy who makes the rest of his group feel like bystanders. ("I practically soloed that adventure!")
- Suggest feats and spells you think would work well with someone's character, but don't insult them because their class, race, feats, or weapons aren't optimized. ("Your cleric of Iomedae doesn't have a wand of infernal healing? You're just gimping our group!")
- Play your character the way you want, but don't make your teammates save you from getting killed in every fight.
- Plan effectively, but don't metagame to make things a cakewalk ("We haven't run into anything too tough yet, so we need to buff before we enter the next section: There's sure to be a boss encounter.")
- Feel free to optimize your character, but don't whine when your one-trick pony finds himself out of his element. ("I can't charge them through the waist-deep water?! That's a crock!")
- Build creatively, but don't abuse the rules to do so.
+1 to this sir!
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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This was one of the most refreshing and well thought out posts I have read in a very long time. Thank you for reminding everyone what the game is REALLY about.
Agreed.
I just hope everyone reads it, and takes it to heart. Nice post, Ricky Bobby.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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As a GM, let me chime in on how min/max characters can ruin a game. I am in no way trying to invalidate the original post from Ricky Bobby; he has played at many of my tables with his team, all with "broken" characters, but somehow his team still manage to make it fun for all involved, including the GM!
A player with a min/max, optimized character is not truly a problem, until he makes the rest of the players wonder why they even bothered to show up. If the PC always acts first, and takes down the encounter in one round, the rest of the players could just have phoned in for a Chronicle... there is no challenge for THEM. Give everyone else their chance to shine!
A player with a min/max character that "wins" at Pathfinder is not understanding the base nature of this game... it is a social activity that involves interaction. And worse, he is teaching any newer players that they must "win" too! Smart tactics and builds are great and should be encouraged, but when you make a new player feel like a failure after purchasing a $50 book and getting excited to play, then you are not encouraging growth of the game. As Ricky Bobby said above, learn to share!
I have a psuedo-min/max character that looks at role in an adventure to shepherd those younger, inexperienced Pathfinders... to keep them safe. He rarely acts first, letting others take the lead unless leadership is needed. Could I solo a lot of the encounters I go through with this character? Absolutely! But then the younger Pathfinders never learn anything! I am "sharing" my experience with the next generation... and you should too!
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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in other words - it's not the min-max characters... it's the player.
Weird how this is always the case, isn't it? Be it because they have no clue how the rules work or because they know exactly how to make the rules dance for them, the player will always make the difference.
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But even if it is a player-dependent issue, they are still a part of our community and deserve to have their fun too. It's always tough as a GM to tailor your style to the players at hand, whether they are role-players, roll-players, bad players, great players, red players, blue players. Unfortunately there is no tried and true method of perfect GMing. You just have to work within your own boundaries to make sure every player that sits at your table has an exciting and memorable experience.
in other words - it's not the min-max characters... it's the player.Weird how this is always the case, isn't it? Be it because they have no clue how the rules work or because they know exactly how to make the rules dance for them, the player will always make the difference.
I would say it is more 90% players, 9% GMs and 1% for those builds that no matter what type of player it is given to, will break the game. The player part is obvious, as certain types can take just about any build and ruin the game because of the way they play or the loopholes they exploit. The GM part is less obvious, but I have seen plenty of posts around here about GMs that just do not like certain builds or who interpret the rules in a way that makes things worse for the average player/build, or are the opposite and facilitate certain players/builds because they are that type of player also.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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But even if it is a player-dependent issue, they are still a part of our community and deserve to have their fun too. It's always tough as a GM to tailor your style to the players at hand, whether they are role-players, roll-players, bad players, great players, red players, blue players. Unfortunately there is no tried and true method of perfect GMing. You just have to work within your own boundaries to make sure every player that sits at your table has an exciting and memorable experience.
Agreed.
I guess what I was trying to point out is that, even though I see a lot of complaints about various types of characters/rules/nonsense, what needs to be addressed is us, as players. We're all here to play a game and enjoy ourselves. Not really sure why this keeps getting lost in the forest.
I would say it is more 90% players, 9% GMs and 1% for those builds that no matter what type of player it is given to, will break the game. The player part is obvious, as certain types can take just about any build and ruin the game because of the way they play or the loopholes they exploit. The GM part is less obvious, but I have seen plenty of posts around here about GMs that just do not like certain builds or who interpret the rules in a way that makes things worse for the average player/build, or are the opposite and facilitate certain players/builds because they are that type of player also.
Agreed, again.
I meant to throw this line onto the end that post, and forgot: "...on both sides of the screen."
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When it comes to min/maxing, it's not going to go away. Unless we raise the point buy (which will never happen) we are going to see one-trick ponies due to the nature of the modules and how much of a mix they are between balanced and unbalanced. Also, take into account, that a lot of PC's eventually multi-class, which changes things up a little bit.
But a word to the min/maxers, you pay a price for it later as you get into higher tiers and they call for DC's that you don't have, and never allocated the correct points to when you built your character the first time. And trust me, us GM's are not going show any sympathy to your case when you have a CON of 9 and I x4 Crit on you and kill you.
So I agree with Ricky Bobby-remember it's just a game people. And so long as you are not a dick, optimize as you see fit. But know that if you choose to min/max, you do so at your own risk.
Not meaning to be disagreeable... but (here's the part where I disagree and hope I don't upset someone),
if you are saying 1% of "the builds" will cause any players to break the game, I do not agree.
I can be a jerk - no matter what build you give me. I know this. I watch myself over it all the time.
I can be a fun guy to play with, no matter what build you give me. Any build. Give me that 1% build that you feel is broken, and I can run it where it will be fun and inclusive for everyone at my table, and most of the players there will think "what a cool PC".
I will agree with you on this only if you, or someone else, can honestly say you will still have fun while having to hold back or intentionally gimping yourself if given an overpowered or broken build.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I will agree with you on this only if you, or someone else, can honestly say you will still have fun while having to hold back or intentionally gimping yourself if given an overpowered or broken build.
Not meaning to be disagreeable... but (here's the part where I disagree and hope I don't upset someone),
if you are saying 1% of "the builds" will cause any players to break the game, I do not agree.
I can be a jerk - no matter what build you give me. I know this. I watch myself over it all the time.
I can be a fun guy to play with, no matter what build you give me. Any build. Give me that 1% build that you feel is broken, and I can run it where it will be fun and inclusive for everyone at my table, and most of the players there will think "what a cool PC".
Challenge accepted.
I once played at an... interesting table. Due to logistical difficulties, I was playing my 5th-level fighter at a table with 5-6 other PCs, of whom two were 2nd-level and the rest were brand new. We played subtier 3-4 (or was it 4-5?).
I played in such a way as to keep the rest of the party alive, not be a spotlight hog, and encourage teamwork. I had a blast (and I think everyone else had fun too).
If it can be done while playing a level 5 with a bunch of "freshies" at subtier 3-4, I don't see why it can't be done in-tier with a "broken" build.
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I too know of people who can take a rather good build and still play nice with others. I agree, its not the build, its the player. Certain builds act as a force multiplier of behavior, so that bad players become intolerable, and good players truly shine. Just stick with Wheaton's Law, and we'll all get along fine.
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I like the intention of the OP, but rarely I'll see it happen. In PFSOP you have different people with different play styles who like Pathfinder for different reasons. Some people like building wacky characters, others like optimizing the crap out of their characters, And this is all fine if everyone at the table is enjoying themselves. Unfortunately when you get a mix of play styles you will often not have everyone enjoying themselves.
Now I know i am biased against the optimizers, but I have my reasons for this. One reason that actually applies to topic is that I'm yet to see a middle liner, or under optimizer actually spoil the fun for some one else at the table, optimizers on the other hand? Oh yeah, they spoil the fun. Maybe it's the optimizers I've been playing with and they are the minority here, maybe not.
I call to you optimizers out there, try this, make a sub-optimal character/middle liner, play something where there is a chance you'll die. You'll have a lot more fun and getting to those high levels feels like you've done something other than play 30 or so scenarios.
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One reason that actually applies to topic is that I'm yet to see a middle liner, or under optimizer actually spoil the fun for some one else at the table, optimizers on the other hand? Oh yeah, they spoil the fun. Maybe it's the optimizers I've been playing with and they are the minority here, maybe not.
Oddly enough, Skerek, I have had my fun spoiled several times by under-optimized, badly-played PCs in PFS.
That halfling Rogue build who spends most of combat sneaking around for a single sneak attack, and then is so badly stated out that he still misses. Ugh. The entire table literally came out and told him to participate in the next combats, so that they can end earlier, not spend the whole, lengthened due to his not contributing, duration of the combat sneaking around to get a single crossbow shot off.
There is a player with a fairly high level Rogue/Bard, amusing enough to play with, as long as the party includes other, significant, contributors to combat. In a 4 PC party, the PC is a lot less enjoyable, because their contribution, again, is not providing much assistance in getting back to the non-combat parts of the scenario.
Let's see, at a local convention, this character died twice, in two different scenarios, and was at 0 hit points in the first round of a combat in yet another scenario. Ummm. Fun? Not so much.
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As much as I've tried to deny it (and build a well-rounded character) Bbauzh is an optimized character.
He is now level 10. Just played (and leveled out of the series) Heresy of Man Part I. He is a huge strength (20--16 +2 Half Orc +2 Ability Bumps) and Improved Trip/Disarm and Felling Smash.
He's not uber-optimized because he is a Battle Oracle/Barbarian/Rage Prophet, so he doesn't have the full BAB to add to his CMB.
However I took a Dueling special ability for his magic weapon, and just recently got Furious on it.
When raged, enlarged, and after taken his bulls strength potion, he has a +37 disarm/ +35 Trip and CMD's that are in the 40's for both.
He is almost guaranteed to trip or disarm someone (he tripped a 4-legged huge creature once).
But he also, being an Oracle, has decent amount of skill points, and has a +13 Diplomacy, +9 Acrobatics, +16 Intimidate, and a slew of knowledge skills.
He's extremely effective and well-rounded.
But he's not broken. I just took some feats here and there and bought some weapon properties.
Bbauzh nearly dominated Heresy of Man Part I until he got into a situation where he couldn't see or hear and nearly died.
I also noticed we were in 5 foot corridors most of the time, so asked if someone else wanted to take point to give them a chance to shine.
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Man, you're making me feel impotent over here! I'll just console myself with my legendary +99 Use Door skill. ;)my skinny, underfed, weak, Tiefling Wizard/rogue gets stuck picking door locks (only one in the party with Disable Device). And she fails her Use Door skill all the time. "I take 10 getting an '8'... do I get the door open? No? pass me the crow bar!" "Outta the way Peck!" says the guy with the +99 Open Door skill...
Note that I said nothing of locks.
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Look, I know everybody has a number of views on this matter; however, I have one which has not been expressed in this – and other – threads so far. Without putting too fine a point on it? I think all of you are mistaken.
Pathfinder Society is unlike any other type of play in Pathfinder RPG. The scenarios provided may not be tweaked by the GM on the fly to respond to a player(s) build and the rules are to be run per RAW. The game, generally speaking, was never intended to be played under such straitjacketed circumstances. When that straitjacket is applied? The game inevitably breaks because the safety valve – GM discretion – has been removed from the equation.
There is no discretionary mechanic available to deal with the intricacies and mistakes of RAW. In PFS play, the highlighter is directed towards the rules and nothing else.
However, what many people in this thread and others refuse to acknowledge is that the very nature of player character design in Pathfinder RPG itself is intended to appeal as a game-within-a-game to a significant minority of players who enjoy crafting optimized characters. The many monthly and semi-monthly publications of Paizo are, in fact, specifically pitched and crafted to appeal to this type of player. They are designed on that basis, written on that basis, sold on that basis, bought on that basis and used on that basis. That is the game we are all playing. If you think Pathfinder RPG isn’t that kind of game? You are profoundly mistaken and you are stuffing your head in the sand with a loud
To blame a player for building a character that the inherent design of the game is intended to support and which marketing of game supplements are intended to appeal to is disingenuous in the extreme and is blatant hypocrisy. I will have nothing to do with such misguided and unjustified condemnation or reprobation.
Ultimately, broken builds are not the fault of the player, they are not the fault of the GM and neither are they the fault of PFS or its coordinators, either. Such builds are, however, underscored in PFS in a manner which is wholly unique because the RAW must be accepted during PFS play and the compensating mechanism provided for within GM discretion is wholly absent in PFS play. The safety valve is also gone by design and so we get to behold RAW in all its naked, chaotic and unbalanced glory.
So who is to blame for spotlight stealing, scenario killing, broken characters that result from such rules? More often than not, nobody is to blame. Frequently, the player is doing exactly what he or she was intended to do with the rule and it is instead the players who design weaker sub-optimized characters who have nobody but themselves to blame for the state of their PFS sessions. The issue is only underscored when optimizers play at the same table with non-optimizers.
However, in some instances where the character builds are so broken that the PFS scenarios are shattering into dozens of pieces because of a RAW character build no matter what the other players do?
Then that blame lies solely at the feet of the designers of the Pathfinder RPG rule system. If it’s broken – fix it. Stop blaming players for buying Paizo’s products and using them in an intelligent manner and instead blame designers for not testing enough, thinking far ahead enough – and most importantly - for failing to fix significant issues after they have clearly arisen during PFS play.
Anything else is simply hypocrisy.
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Frequently, the player is doing exactly what he or she was intended to do with the rule and it is instead the players who design weaker sub-optimized characters who have nobody but themselves to blame for the state of their PFS sessions. The issue is only underscored when optimizers play at the same table with non-optimizers.
I'm sorry, but I cannot get behind the "optimize or suffer" mindset. Players should not be castigated for not playing to break the rules. No one likes people who exist solely to outdo their neighbors outside of a game, and I can't see why we should be forced to like it in a game. That's like saying a professional ball player should enjoy going to a middle school game and showing up the students. Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you *should*.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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There is no discretionary mechanic available to deal with the intricacies and mistakes of RAW. In PFS play, the highlighter is directed towards the rules and [i]nothing else.[/i
That's not entirely true. To quote the Guide to Organized Play:
you may encounter rules combinations or questions during the course of a scenario that aren’t covered in this book or the official Pathfinder Society FAQ. In these cases, the Game Master has the freedom to adjudicate the rules as needed to ensure a fun and fair gaming experience is had by all.
So there is still some GM discretion, but only in cases where the rules or FAQ do not cover the case. There is no discretion to change the rules in situations that are explicitly covered.
As you point out, this can cause problems. That's especially true with older scenarios which were designed around a game that didn't include new character classes, feats, etc. introduced in books that have been added since the scenario was written. A gunslinger with a musket, doing 1D12 ranged damage against touch AC, can shift the balance considerably in a subtier 1-2 adventure. (Mind you, that's probably true even in season 3 scenarios).
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Without putting too fine a point on it? I think all of you are mistaken.
quality stuff
Anything else is simply hypocrisy
There is room in our large community for Robert's optimized players as well as people who view optimization in the worst light. Saying one side or the other is wrong or that they are hypocrites is inaccurate IMHO. if you want to have a home game where there are no optimized PCs, you can do that. If you want to have a mechanically optimized marvel that shines at every convention you attend, you can do that too. Everyone (except Jerks) is accepted in this community, so to tell someone they are 'playing' wrong is just a bunch of nonsense.
No player deserves to be castigated for their choices in support of their having a fun time.No ones fun is Bad/Wrong.
There is room for everybody in the PFSOP sandbox.
Oh, there is one exception to the points I left from your post, and it is not the average optimizer or min/maxer, and maybe not even some munchkins. Rather, it is the player, regardless of build, who gets his or her fun by ruining the other players' fun. Sure, there are some who cross the line of "don't be a jerk" or of PVP and can be dealt with, but there are those out there who know just how far they can push things without getting booted and take delight in doing so. I have seen these players personally and I have seen them talked about on the Paizo forums many times before.