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After discussing the issue with several people under the rules discussion section of the forums (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dk7?Intimidate-Again). Some people don't think it's an important thing to consider, I do. So, I thought I'd provide a possible rewrite to the Intimidate skill here to be more consistent with Bluff and Diplomacy as well as taking into account various factors that seem to be ignored. Obviously, as with all RP skills, common sense is your guide, but this should help provide consistency in judgment. New text uses the blue "out of character" font. Regardless of whether you consider it necessary or not, I'd appreciate your critique and suggestions of the additions here.
You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess.
Check: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
Special: You also gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target and a –4 penalty on Intimidate checks if you are smaller than your target.
If you have the Persuasive feat, you get a bonus on Intimidate checks.
A half-orc gets a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
I'm not sure that makes sense. Intimidate implies that you can "communicate" in some way with the target. You can't communicate with ants, zombies, or skeletons. You could communicate with a horse, for instance, through body language. The horse is likely to shy away from you, but you could theoretically "intimidate" it.
I would like some consideration given to how to make intimidate work against a group (imagine I'm trying to intimidate a group of kids) or collateral intimidation (I intend to intimidate one person and I intimidate a bystander). I would also like some consideration given to what happens if you "over" intimidate. Why does intimidation only lead to friendly attitudes by the target or hindrance by the target? Why not combat or fleeing? Why not running for support or wetting of the breeches and calling for the town guard?
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+ half the total Hit Die of the opponent's allies in support/immediate vicinity that the opponent believes will give support
I have three problems with this. That number is going to be pretty big, lots of math to find half the HD, and you need to specify 'immediate vicinity'. I give a +1 bonus for every ally within 30 ft in my game.
I can see adding some of the diplomacy modifiers. But some of your modifiers are too big. I get the impression you hate when someone uses Intimidate and are looking to never let them use the skill.
No, no, not at all. I considered a +2, but think about this:
An inquisitor with a +3 charisma modifier and nothing else will have a minimum + 4(ranks) + 3(class skill) + 3 (wis) + 2 (Stern Gaze) = +12. That means, 50% of the time, the Inquisitor will successfully intimidate anyone with an HD + wis modifier = 12 (say level 10 human plus 2 for wisdom modifier). That's *amazing*. That's a "encounter bypass" that must be accounted for, I think. If that level 10 human has allies, let's say, 2 more level 10 humans, then your bonus only makes him 2 points more difficult to intimidate. Even 4 points should be more difficult than a 25% at this level disparity.
The whole point of this skill rewrite is because I *want* my players to be able to use the intimidate skill. I don't want to reject things out of hand.
No, no, not at all. I considered a +2, but think about this:
An inquisitor with a +3 charisma modifier and nothing else will have a minimum + 4(ranks) + 3(class skill) + 3 (wis) + 2 (Stern Gaze) = +12. That means, 50% of the time, the Inquisitor will successfully intimidate anyone with an HD + wis modifier = 12 (say level 10 human plus 2 for wisdom modifier). That's *amazing*. That's a "encounter bypass" that must be accounted for, I think. If that level 10 human has allies, let's say, 2 more level 10 humans, then your bonus only makes him 2 points more difficult to intimidate. Even 4 points should be more difficult than a 25% at this level disparity.
The whole point of this skill rewrite is because I *want* my players to be able to use the intimidate skill. I don't want to reject things out of hand.
One mitigating factor is that the DC for the Inquisitor to beat in this situation isn't likely to be 22, like in this example, but much higher thanks to situational bonuses. If the level 10 human holds any sort of leadership position (being level 10, probably does) that's at least +5. They are likely Unfriendly or more, since this is "encounter bypassing" so they were looking to fight, or would have had to. Another +5 or more. That puts it at 32 for the level 10 human alone, and on your version of the "allies" modifier, it's at 42, which is UNREACHABLE by your level 4 Inquisitor (since having 4 ranks in the skill and a Stern Gaze of +2 is only possible at level 4- also, I think you meant to put CHA instead of WIS in your example).
I don't think I've ever played Intimidate by rules. Ever. I mostly just RP what is reasonable to expect from someone who has been threatened or socially blackmailed (pulling social rank you don't have on a guard is probably the equivalent of a Bluff check followed by an Intimidate check). The duration is pretty arbitrary- someone physically threatened into compliance is likely to flee or turn on you when they see an opening, and cooperate until they do. The consequences of failing the check imply that if they were planning to do that anyway, they somehow won't if you fail close to the mark.
You can probably replace most every line in the first paragraph with your paragraph after the circumstantial modifiers. You will come up with more reasonable Intimidate results if your underlying assumption is that the target is minimizing their potential risk rather than trying to make them Friendly for a random duration, then making exceptions for dangerous behavior. If people are just trying to pick the least of all threats, highly moral or disciplined people (the minority of Intimidate targets) become the exceptions who need modifiers for subsequent checks. The duration should also only be necessary if you are no longer going to be present or paying attention to reiterate the threat- if they considered you threatening enough to submit, they are very unlikely to change their mind 10 minutes later if nothing presents evidence to the contrary.
One of my problems is the lack of any bonuses. You have one way to get a plus 5. What happens if the player is in a possition of significant power. (such as in king maker) what if the opponent is unarmed and the player has a weapon drawn, or the NPC has no escape route? What happens when the party member is riding a giant flying shark surrounded by ghost fire while 2 casts of ghost sound replicates ride of the valkeries from 40 voices (my campaigns tend to get weird...)
To sum it up I think you need to include more positive modifiers.
One of my problems is the lack of any bonuses. You have one way to get a plus 5. What happens if the player is in a possition of significant power. (such as in king maker) what if the opponent is unarmed and the player has a weapon drawn, or the NPC has no escape route? What happens when the party member is riding a giant flying shark surrounded by ghost fire while 2 casts of ghost sound replicates ride of the valkeries from 40 voices (my campaigns tend to get weird...)
To sum it up I think you need to include more positive modifiers.
This is a great point, Tekik. The reverse of some of those negatives is true. I looked at the status of Indifferent, Friendly, and Helpful, and decided that they didn't need to be included (why would you need to intimidate those who were Friendly or Helpful? And indifferent is neutral, so no bonuses or penalties.
You do get a bonus similar to the target for having allies assist. And you're right, a leadership position should give you some benefit. Can you think of other reasons the intimidator should get benefits beyond what he might be granted through his class or feats?
One mitigating factor is that the DC for the Inquisitor to beat in this situation isn't likely to be 22, like in this example, but much higher thanks to situational bonuses. If the level 10 human holds any sort of leadership position (being level 10, probably does) that's at least +5. They are likely Unfriendly or more, since this is "encounter bypassing" so they were looking to fight, or would have had to. Another +5 or more. That puts it at 32 for the level 10 human alone, and on your version of the "allies" modifier, it's at 42, which is UNREACHABLE by your level 4 Inquisitor (since having 4 ranks in the skill and a Stern Gaze of +2 is only possible at level 4- also, I think you meant to put CHA instead of WIS in your example).
Of course, you're making assumptions that "encounter bypassing" deals with "Unfriendly". I think that's unnecessary. Also, authority and leadership, are of course, two different things. But for the sake of your argument, let's say the DC is 42. In some cases, the DC should be practically unreachable. I have a real hard time believing that a level 4 Inquisitor, flanked by 3 other level 4 characters should be able to overcome a CR 9 encounter by simply using the Intimidate skill, which I believe is possible otherwise. This is equivalent to the notion of punking the dragon off his pile of treasure. But let's take this DC 42 and add in the allies on both sides. A standard party of level 4 adventurers = an additional +6 to the inquisitor. The inquisitor now has a +18. That's just out of reach. Add one more ally to the party and it's feasible to intimidate your way past a CR9 encounter. Pretty impressive, if you ask me.
But now consider using a +1 or +2, instead. Assuming everything you just said, the DC becomes 34 or 36 and the bonus from a four man APL4 party is still +3 (15) +6 (18). Now you've got something within reach. Now the APL4 can just intimidate past CR9 (assuming good role-playing, of course).
And all of this assumes, of course, that the PC is not optimizing for intimidate (Intimidating Prowess, Skill Focus, etc...). Because once that happens, the unobtainable becomes obtainable. That which was just out of reach comes into reach. Optimizing could get that base bonus up from a 12 at level 4 to 18-20 (depending on the point buy and ability score point allocation).
Maybe the number is too high. Maybe it is too complicated. I don't know. I think, though, the bonus/penalty needs to take into account the actual power/intimidation factor of the allies. A knight isn't going to be concerned so much, when you try to intimidate him, if you have at your back a town of villagers, but he would sit up and take notice if it's an army of soldiers. The quality of the ally should matter, I think.
I don't think I've ever played Intimidate by rules. Ever. I mostly just RP what is reasonable to expect from someone who has been threatened or socially blackmailed (pulling social rank you don't have on a guard is probably the equivalent of a Bluff check followed by an Intimidate check). The duration is pretty arbitrary- someone physically threatened into compliance is likely to flee or turn on you when they see an opening, and cooperate until they do. The consequences of failing the check imply that if they were planning to do that anyway, they somehow won't if you fail close to the mark.
Yeah, I never have either. Mostly because it came up so rarely, but also, I suspect, because I never played investigative campaigns with inquisitors before. When it comes up like that, it becomes a bear that needs to be properly managed.
You can probably replace most every line in the first paragraph with your paragraph after the circumstantial modifiers. You will come up with more reasonable Intimidate results if your underlying assumption is that the target is minimizing their potential risk rather than trying to make them Friendly for a random duration, then making exceptions for dangerous behavior. If people are just trying to pick the least of all threats, highly moral or disciplined people (the minority of Intimidate targets) become the exceptions who need modifiers for subsequent checks. The duration should also only be necessary if you are no longer going to be present or paying attention to reiterate the threat- if they considered you threatening enough to submit, they are very unlikely to change their mind 10 minutes later if nothing presents evidence to the contrary.
That is an interesting idea. I think the term "friendly" was used to indicate how the target would behave, not how he actually feels. His motivation for "acting friendly" is that he's afraid and trying to reduce risk. Let's say I do as you suggest (replacing the wording), how do you see the modifiers changing? Also, do you have any other suggestions for bonuses or penalties?
Thanks a lot.
Attempting to demoralize after slaying/defeating the enemy's leader. If the person you are attempting to intimidate is at 25% or fewer hit points. Hostages, blackmail, torture. Possibaly what you are wearing, a farmer looks less intimidating then someone in spiked full plate with glowing demonic runes etched into it.
I might make a ton of the modifications smaller in number... +5 is an enormous amount to add to any sort of skill check. As was noted earlier, modifiers in both directions would be useful. I came up with these just now, and haven't tried any examples yet. Part of the idea is that the bonuses would mostly accumulate and counter some of the effects of the others on the other side.
These would all be based on the target's perceptions, not game reality. If the target doesn't know about it, it doesn't grant a bonus- if the target thinks it's true, it does. People wanting to specialize in Intimidation could do well to get Bluff and try it first (and I picture many who are adept at socially intimidating others already do).
Aggressor's Bonuses:
Aggressor appears well-equipped for the threat: +2
Aggressor has items or equipment specialized for the target: +2 (say, a magic weapon the target believes is Bane enchanted, set for the target's race, or the fantasy equivalent of a "pink slip" letter for the target from their parent organization)
Aggressor can reasonably cause death of the target or the target's loved ones (immediately or as a following consequence): +2
Aggressor has just demonstrated capability in carrying out the threat being issued: +2, or +4 if they just carried out the specific threat itself on others
Aggressor is a member of an organization the target respects: +2 (note that "respect" does not have to mean "like")
Aggressor is specifically known to the target: +1 (even a non-threatening childhood friend suddenly standing up to you makes you pause a bit- and long-time bullies can still have a bit of bite even if you're finally above them)
Aggressor is a race or class the target fears: +2
Aggressor is larger than the target: +2 per size category
Target's Bonuses:
Every diplomacy step lower than "Neutral": +2
Target believes it has the upper hand at the moment: +2
Target has resources (equipment, training, legal protection) that lessen the threat: +2
Target has specialized gear for dealing with the aggressor: +2
Target believes it is indispensable to the aggressor: +2
Target is larger than the aggressor: +2 per size category
Aggressor has a poor reputation (lack of power or failed threats): +2
Aggressor is clearly unfamiliar with social customs or their situation: +2
Target looks down on the race/class of the aggressor: +2
Target is a member of an organization it respects and can call on for aid: +2
Target answers to superiors it believes are more powerful than the aggressor: +2
Target will suffer permanent harm, incapacitation, or death by submitting to the aggressor (say, from a curse or from ruthless superiors): +2
Target has seen the above carried out personally: +2
Target must defend a reputation that would be lost by the threat: from +1 (gang leader or seargent) to +5 (emperor, witch queen, dragon lord) (Double if witnesses the target would be concerned about are present)
If a bonus is lost (say, circumstances change or a Bluff is revealed), it is counted as a penalty of the same magnitude instead for the duration of the encounter. If the aggressor is aware of the change, they may immediately attempt a new Intimidate check (though the penalty still applies). If it is failed, the target is no longer compelled to consider the aggressor a threat or act on their behalf, though they may do so for other reasons (such as part of a ploy).
(honestly, writing the last sentence really drove home that Intimidate is second place to Bluff, and that it really only works with RP sense. Mechanical compulsions really don't work in enough Intimidate situations to mandate things like "Friendly" levels of aid- it's extremely forced.)
One last note: Inquisitors are probably stacked heavily for Intimidation. It's a class skill for them, they get 1/2 their class level as a bonus, and they are eligible for just about any feat that others can take that would help. While it's good to be aware of them, it would be like using Rogue as a gauge for Disable Device checks, or Ranger for Perception.
Edit: Dangit. I also intended for people to be able to "Aid Another" in Intimidate checks if they can credibly add to the threat. Targets would count anyone present who they expect would and would be able to come to their aid as performing Aid Another up to the GM's comfortable limit.
I use this little replacement for diplomacy: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html
With a bit of effort, you can convert it to work for intimidate.
The most important part of rule design is that the player should know what the DC will be in advance. If you are always ad-hoc-ing it, you might as well do away with the dice rolls and just decide if your player succeeds or not.
I use this little replacement for diplomacy: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html
With a bit of effort, you can convert it to work for intimidate.
The most important part of rule design is that the player should know what the DC will be in advance. If you are always ad-hoc-ing it, you might as well do away with the dice rolls and just decide if your player succeeds or not.
Thank God someone understands me. It's important that the player has an idea what it's going to be and that the GM can make good and consistent determinations.
Edit: I'm reading your linked page and this guy is singing my song.
I might make a ton of the modifications smaller in number... +5 is an enormous amount to add to any sort of skill check. As was noted earlier, modifiers in both directions would be useful. I came up with these just now, and haven't tried any examples yet. Part of the idea is that the bonuses would mostly accumulate and counter some of the effects of the others on the other side.
I'm going to review your suggestions and think about them. Thanks for all these great ideas.
One last note: Inquisitors are probably stacked heavily for Intimidation. It's a class skill for them, they get 1/2 their class level as a bonus, and they are eligible for just about any feat that others can take that would help. While it's good to be aware of them, it would be like using Rogue as a gauge for Disable Device checks, or Ranger for Perception.
However, I wanted to respond to this specifically. I agree in principle, but do you realize the only thing the Inquisitor has over a Bard is the Stern Gaze class feature? In other words, the Inquisitor only has a +2 bonus more than a Bard at 5th level, but probably not that much considering that the Bard is more likely to optimize towards Charisma. The Bard could just as easily have a 5(ranks) + 3(class skill) + 4(Cha) = +12 bonus. And there are feats, obviously, to optimize in this direction. The Stern Gaze feature is a nice bonus, obviously, but if anyone wanted to optimize towards Intimidate, they wouldn't be that far behind. A half-orc barbarian taking Intimidating Prowess and Skill Focus with, at least, a +2 in Charisma and a +3 in Strength (nothing truly optimized) would have a +17 at 5th level. It could achieve a 37 on an Intimidate roll--without allies or other circumstance bonuses. And if we're truly optimizing, could probably achieve a 39 or 40 (with a +5 to strength and +3 to Charisma).
If you scare them too much they might even attack you, the whole flight or fight reaction
Liam, thank you for the idea. That put my thinking cap on. I'm about to post an updated version and will include this concept.
Attempting to demoralize after slaying/defeating the enemy's leader. If the person you are attempting to intimidate is at 25% or fewer hit points. Hostages, blackmail, torture. Possibaly what you are wearing, a farmer looks less intimidating then someone in spiked full plate with glowing demonic runes etched into it.
I'm going to wait to work on the demoralize portion until I get the regular portion completed. But these are great ideas for that.
I use this little replacement for diplomacy: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html
With a bit of effort, you can convert it to work for intimidate.
The most important part of rule design is that the player should know what the DC will be in advance. If you are always ad-hoc-ing it, you might as well do away with the dice rolls and just decide if your player succeeds or not.
Knight Magenta, thanks for that link. The writer makes a wonderful case for what I'm trying to accomplish here. And while I think his thinking was brilliant (very out-of-the-box approach to fixing Diplomacy), I think that his solution fails the most important point - streamlining. Yes, it fixes the problem, but every proposal requires another check and another check. There's no sense of just general helpfulness that can guide the DM in how the subject should be roleplayed, but rather there are specific rolls telling the DM what actually happens in roleplay... one check at a time. That's a little rough, in my opinion, although I've never tried it myself.
Further, it doesn't account for one aspect of "deals" and that's the issue of trust. You might think it would be accounted for under the "Relationship" concept, but sometimes people like other people very much without trusting them (I can think of several politicians who seem very likable, but you wouldn't ever trust them). His relationship modifier seems to be more about "closeness". But I can hate someone and trust them implicitly. Trust is separate, in many cases, from my feelings towards them.
Finally, I'm concerned with how well it handles the concept of receptiveness. Not all people are willing to even listen to someone trying to make a deal - completely close-minded from the start (how you might behave towards the telemarketer trying to sell you Accidental Death and Dismemberment insurance).
Ultimately, I think the original intent of the original rule for both diplomacy and intimidate was not to direct the roleplay, but to guide it. The NPC is *friendly*, now do with that what you will. The NPC is hostile, now do with that what you will. I like that approach. It allows me to assess deals from an attitude/thought point of view rather than specifically accepting or denying it and requiring multiple rolls for each possible deal and/or variation on a deal.
I might make a ton of the modifications smaller in number... +5 is an enormous amount to add to any sort of skill check. As was noted earlier, modifiers in both directions would be useful. I came up with these just now, and haven't tried any examples yet. Part of the idea is that the bonuses would mostly accumulate and counter some of the effects of the others on the other side.
These would all be based on the target's perceptions, not game reality. If the target doesn't know about it, it doesn't grant a bonus- if the target thinks it's true, it does. People wanting to specialize in Intimidation could do well to get Bluff and try it first (and I picture many who are adept at socially intimidating others already do).
Aggressor's Bonuses:
Aggressor appears well-equipped for the threat: +2Aggressor has items or equipment specialized for the target: +2 (say, a magic weapon the target believes is Bane enchanted, set for the target's race, or the fantasy equivalent of a "pink slip" letter for the target from their parent organization)
Aggressor can reasonably cause death of the target or the target's loved ones (immediately or as a following consequence): +2
Aggressor has just demonstrated capability in carrying out the threat being issued: +2, or +4 if they just carried out the specific threat itself on others
Aggressor is a member of an organization the target respects: +2 (note that "respect" does not have to mean "like")
Aggressor is specifically known to the target: +1 (even a non-threatening childhood friend suddenly standing up to you makes you pause a bit- and long-time bullies can still have a bit of bite even if you're finally above them)
Aggressor is a race or class the target fears: +2
Aggressor is larger than the target: +2 per size category
Target's Bonuses:
Every diplomacy step lower than "Neutral": +2Target believes it has the upper hand at the moment: +2
Target has resources (equipment, training, legal protection) that lessen the threat: +2
Target has...
Parka, thanks for your ideas. I would like to respond to your thoughts in greater specificity. Firstly, a large portion of your modifiers seem to be variations on the same theme: how real does the threat seem to be? Now, keep in mind, it's not just threats, it's also intimidating behavior. The Inquisitor has a feature titled Stern Gaze. That title alone explains that this is in large part and issue of being menacing. I've modified the text to reflect your ideas and that notion. That said, I liked your ideas in this regard and incorporated it.
Some of your bonuses and penalties were already included (such as those dealing with reputation, allies, size (even the book gives greater bonuses/penalties according to size than do you :P ). I agree that Bluff should be able to give aid, here, and have added that to the Special section.
Thanks again for your suggestions.
EDIT: By the way, you were mentioning the size of the modifiers. I pointed out in another response, how it's reasonable. I just want to point out that most of these modifier amounts are pulled from like modifiers under the Diplomacy rule.
You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats, displays of prowess, and menacing behavior.
Check: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check or until the opponent gains a safe distance or haven. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier + half the total Hit Die of the opponent's allies in support/immediate vicinity that the opponent believes will give support. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. A success of 10 or more causes the target to become helpful, instead, and will remain for the full time regardless of whether or not it believes it is safe or in a safe place. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities.
The goal of intimidation is to bring the target to a crucial balance of safety and fear. The higher the success, the more perfectly you have achieved this goal. However, if you fail this check by 5 or less, you have successfully threatened the target, but failed to achieve balance and instead trigger "Fight or Flight". At the GM's discretion, the opponent will either attack with all its resources to meet the threat it believes you pose or will flee as decorously or speedily as required by the target’s nature. If you fail this target by 6 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Circumstances Intimidate Modifier
Target believes you are especially threatening (e.g. secret vulnerabilities exposed, specialized weaponry, capable and willing to harm loved ones, etc…): +1 to +5
Target believes you aren’t especially threatening (e.g. has leverage over you, special defenses, believes itself capable of handling the threat you pose): -1 to -5
The target’s impression of you or your reputation: -5 to +5
The target’s concern about the target’s reputation: -5 to +5
The target is adapted to intimidating language and behavior (e.g. guard, bandit, mercenary): +5
The target holds a low leadership position requiring courage with intimidating language and behavior (e.g. captain of the guard, knight-errant, bandit leader, warden): +5
The target holds a high leadership position requiring intimidating language and behavior (e.g. battalion commanders, generals, heads of armies or army divisions): +10
The target holds the top or near-the-top leadership position of entire nations or tribes: +20
The target is Unfriendly: +5
The target is Hostile: +10
Successfully intimidated opponents may take actions that endanger it so long as it perceives the consequential danger to be less imminent, threatening, or severe than that posed by the intimidating player, at the GM's discretion. Alternatively, a highly moral person can overcome intimidation if asked to do that which is objectionable to that person's belief system. Requiring an opponent do something it would not normally do for a friend requires opposing Charisma rolls.
Circumstances Opponent’s Charisma Modifier
Give simple advice, directions, information: -5
Give detailed advice, directions, information: +0
Give simple aid: +0
The target considers the demand/request to be morally/ethically objectionable: +5 or more
Reveal an unimportant secret: +5
Give lengthy or complicated aid: +5
Give dangerous aid: +10
Reveal important secret knowledge: +10 or more
Give aid that will result in harm/punishment: +15 or more
The target considers helping you a greater threat than not helping you: +20
Each failed opposed Charisma roll that results in acceptable or no consequences adds cumulative +5 to future rolls
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of communication. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
Special: You also gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target and a –4 penalty on Intimidate checks if you are smaller than your target.
You gain a bonus equal to half the total HD of your allies assisting on your Intimidate check (instead of the normal +2).
If you have the Persuasive feat, you get a bonus on Intimidate checks.
A half-orc gets a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Prior to making your Intimidate check, you may make the target believe you are especially threatening or reduce the target's belief that are you aren't especially threatening by making a successful Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive.
Everyone: Please review the above, again, and give what comments you can. I've made changes throughout the rule text, so selectively identifying those changes with ooc formatters was counter-productive (it just became confusing).
I'm very interested in ideas on how to deal with group intimidation (a group of kobolds being intimidated by a level 12 Paladin, mobs backed down by specific actions like I mentioned regarding Wyatt Earp).
Also, consider various ideas for modifying the Demoralize section (ideas that might effect the morale of target).
Initial thoughts concerning group intimidation is that there are two kinds of groups:
1) Led Group - A group that is led do not have to have people with authority (though it may), but will have members to whom everyone else looks for strength and decision-making. In other words, if you can intimidate these leaders (whether they be the respected friends, ring-leaders, old wise men, or bandit lords), then the rest of the mob will follow. To intimidate a Led Group, you must intimidate those leaders. In the case of a single leader, proceed as with intimidation of an individual. In this case of multiple leaders, those leaders comprise a nucleus or core group that you're trying to intimidate, proceed as with intimidation of an Unled Group (#2) using this core group as your target.
2) Unled Group - Everyone is in it together. An Unled Group requires you to intimidate them all. The DC should be higher to intimidate a group of individuals who support each other than a single individual that has support, something like: 10 + the total HD of the group + the highest wisdom modifier of the group. Apply whatever circumstance modifiers are applicable from any member of the opposing group. If a bonus is indicated, it must be applicable to the entire opposing group.
Latest update, including group intimidation and updates to demoralize, please review and preferably play test:
You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats, displays of prowess, and menacing behavior.
Check:
Cow Individual: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check or until the opponent gains a safe distance or haven. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier + half the total Hit Die of the opponent's allies in support/immediate vicinity that the opponent believes will give support. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. A success of 10 or more causes the target to become helpful, instead, and will remain for the full time regardless of whether or not it believes it is safe or in a safe place. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities. If you succeed by 15 or more, the target will become indifferent after the expiration time, rather than unfriendly.
The goal of intimidation is to bring the target to a crucial balance of safety and fear. The higher the success, the more perfectly you have achieved this goal. However, if you fail this check by 5 or less, you successfully threaten the target, but fail to achieve balance. Instead you trigger "Fight or Flight". At the GM's discretion, the opponent will either attack with all its resources to meet the threat it believes you pose or will flee as decorously or speedily as required by the target’s nature. If you fail this target by 6 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Circumstances Intimidate Modifier
Target believes you are especially threatening (e.g. secret vulnerabilities exposed, specialized weaponry, capable and willing to harm loved ones, etc…): +1 to +5
Target believes you are especially unthreatening (e.g. has leverage over you, special defenses, believes itself capable of handling the threat you pose): -1 to -5
The target’s impression of you or your reputation: -5 to +5
The target’s concern about the target’s reputation: -5 to +5
The target is adapted to intimidating language and behavior (e.g. guard, bandit, mercenary): +5
The target holds a low leadership position requiring courage with intimidating language and behavior (e.g. captain of the guard, knight-errant, bandit leader, warden): +5
The target holds a high leadership position requiring intimidating language and behavior (e.g. battalion commanders, generals, heads of armies or army divisions): +10
The target holds the top or near-the-top leadership position of entire nations or tribes: +20
The target is Unfriendly: +5
The target is Hostile: +10
Cow Group: You can use intimidate to force a group of individuals to act friendly towards you for 1d6 x 5 minutes. If you succeed by 10 or more, the group will remain friendly for twice as long. If you succeed by 15 or more, the target will become indifferent after the expiration time, rather than unfriendly.
1) Led Group - A Led Group need not have members given authority (though it may), but will have members to whom everyone else looks for strength and decision-making. If you intimidate these leaders (e.g. respected friends, ring-leaders, old wise men, the grizzled Sergeant instead of the young lieutenant, or a bandit leader), then the rest of the mob will follow. For a Led Group with a single leader, proceed as with Cow Individual. For a Led Group with multiple leaders, those leaders comprise a nucleus or core group that you're trying to intimidate, proceed as with intimidation of a Leaderless Group (#2) using this core group as your target.
2) Leaderless Group - Everyone is in it together. A Leaderless Group requires you to intimidate them all. The DC to intimidate a group of individuals who support each other is 10 + the total HD of the group + the highest wisdom modifier of the group. Apply whatever circumstance modifiers are applicable from any member of the opposing group. If a bonus is indicated, it must be applicable to the entire opposing group.
Demand Action: Successfully intimidated opponents may take actions that endanger it so long as it perceives the consequential danger to be less imminent, threatening, or severe than that posed by the intimidating player, at the GM's discretion. Alternatively, a highly moral person can overcome intimidation if asked to do that which is objectionable to that person's belief system. Requiring an opponent do something it would not normally do for a friend requires opposing Charisma rolls.
Circumstances Opponent’s Charisma Modifier
Give simple advice, directions, information: -5
Give detailed advice, directions, information: +0
Give simple aid: +0
The target considers the demand/request to be morally/ethically objectionable: +5 or more
Reveal an unimportant secret: +5
Give lengthy or complicated aid: +5
Give dangerous aid: +10
Reveal important secret knowledge: +10 or more
Give aid that will result in harm/punishment: +15 or more
The target considers helping you a greater threat than not helping you: +20
Each failed opposed Charisma rolls that results in acceptable or no consequences adds cumulative +5 to future rolls
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause a opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you and is able to understand the actions or sounds you make. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition. Morale bonuses of -10 to +10 may be applied to the DC according to GM discretion for things like being wounded, outnumbering you, having a motivating leader killed, or being far outnumbered.
Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of communication. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
Special: You gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target and a –4 penalty on Intimidate checks if you are smaller than your target.
You gain a +2 bonus on your Intimidate check if you have at least 5 ranks in Diplomacy.
You gain a bonus equal to half the total HD of your allies assisting on your Intimidate check (instead of the normal +2).
If you have the Persuasive feat, you get a bonus on Intimidate checks.
A half-orc gets a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Prior to making a Cow Individual check, you may make the target believe you are especially threatening or reduce the target's belief that are you aren't especially threatening by making a successful Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive.
Prior to making a Cow Group check, you may make the target group believe you are especially threatening or reduce the target's belief that are you aren't especially threatening by making a successful Bluff check opposed by the best Sense Motive of target group's members + the highest wisdom modifier of the target group's members.
So that all edits can be found in the same location, I have created a Google Doc that can be updated as I find more information, playtest the skill, or receive useful feedback.
That doc can be found here: Pathfinder - Intimidate Revised