Why aren't there any 1st level energy based rays in Pathfinder books?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


This is probably the wrong place to ask this question, but I seriously have to ask, why aren't there any energy based 1st level ray(s) spells in any of the core Pathfinder books?

The reason behind this is that I'm in the process of making a 12th level evoker, and I really don't like using magic missile, as iconic of a spell that it is. I really want to use the "ray of flame" from the 3.5 spell compendium, but my soon to be DM strictly said only Paizo published books, no third party supplements or older material.

Yes, my dexterity for my wizard is high enough to make a lot of the ranged touch attacks, but honestly, if I miss, I miss. I don't like having to fall back on low powered "gotcha!" spells like magic missile, I like rolling the d20 for a chance to hit and make some impressive damage!

So, fellow pathfinders, why is it so hard to think outside of this box and officially publish by Paizo some alternative spells so that I (and anyone else that enjoys some risk) don't have to play kissy kissy face with the DM's derriere for something that's not published by Paizo?

Edit: No, no, no I will not fall back on Ray of Enfeeblement. I want to blow stuff up, not turn something into a limp noodle. That's not my bag, man.

Liberty's Edge

Probably because so many ray abilities exist at low level, having it as a spell as well wouldn't be all that exciting.

Magnetron wrote:
So, fellow pathfinders, why is it so hard to think outside of this box and officially publish by Paizo some alternative spells so that I (and anyone else that enjoys some risk) don't have to play kissy kissy face with the DM's derriere for something that's not published by Paizo?

By the by, this comes off as rather insulting. A first level ray spell is not all that "outside the box."

That aside, I'd ask my DM why he doesn't like 3rd party products because honestly, we've got some amazing 3rd parties right now, several of whom are every bit as good, if not better than, Paizo. (No offense to Paizo at all.)


1001 Spells has ultrasonic ray, which is a sonic attack. There are quite a few good spells in it.


Just a question, but is your goal specifically an evoker, or a mage that blows stuff up?

Edit: Specfically I would then instead of the evoker consider a sorceror that was crossblooded between orc bloodline (published in orcs of golarion) and one of the elemental bloodlines or another that has an energy attack and a bonus to energy damage. You dont need a spell book full of spells to blow stuff up, and you will do more damage AND get your ray at first level if you crossblood orc and either elemental, or djinn or efreeti bloodlines. You could even go half orc and boost damage with fire spells which will help you blow stuff up with buring hands, scorching ray and fireball.


I believe the Wizard gets a ray attack at first level depending on the school you choose. Though, I could be wrong. :\


Buri wrote:
I believe the Wizard gets a ray attack at first level depending on the school you choose. Though, I could be wrong. :\

Straight Cojurers do, evokers get a mini magic missile instead.


Your experience may be different from mine, but how much time is your 12th level PC really going to spend casting 1st level spells?

If you really wanted to, you could buy a Metamagic Rod of Reach Spell and use it in conjunction with Shocking Grasp.


There's also the possibility of having your character engage in independent spell research to "discover" a third-party / 3.5 spell on your own. The fact that it's published should help to convince the GM that it's pretty much balanced.

Honestly, I have a "Core Rulebook Only" spell rule in my game, but I do allow my players to have their PCs do independent spell research to get access to spells from other sources (subject to my approval).

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a couple posts. Don't be jerks.


Again, please don't be jerks. Removed post.


This is the deal: I'm not interested in doing weird orc sorcerer bloodlines, with their "ray" abilities that's only a d6 + 1/2 level of whatever, so many times per day. Did that, got the t-shirt, no longer interested.

Yes, I'm making an evoker wizard, and yes, I do understand that the intense spells feature gives me for all my evocations, a +6 to damage. That's part of the reason why I asked for why Paizo hadn't brought more energy based rays into the core books. I'm also going with the Admixture school, because that's more useful to me than zapping with a weak version of magic missile and creating a wall out of energy that acts like the wall of fire spell that nearly anything can get around or through.

The DM doesn't using like third party books, mainly due to overpowering breakage. A lot of the info in third party supplements and older material can (and will) get broken from mixing with current core rules, so he is being very, very, very, (did I mention very?) strict on using nothing but Pathfinder core products. So if there's any advice, mentioning third party stuff is going to be shot down right off the bat.

Now then, I'd like an answer as to why there weren't any different ray spells than what has already been given since core came out?

Edit: Hey, laughing out loud to censorship isn't being a jerk. I was expressing my full appreciation due to how quirky my humor is.

Liberty's Edge

Ray of Frost is a 0 level spell. Tack on any of the '1 level higher' meta-magic feats and you've got a 1st level ray spell.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Ray of Frost is a 0 level spell. Tack on any of the '1 level higher' meta-magic feats and you've got a 1st level ray spell.

Which doesn't go up in d6's per two levels of damage, and is still considered a 0 level spell, unless using the Heightened Spell feat. No. Not good enough.


Magnetron wrote:
Which doesn't go up in d6's per two levels of damage, and is still considered a 0 level spell, unless using the Heightened Spell feat. No. Not good enough.

How about Shocking Grasp with the Reach metamagic feat added for free (either with a metamagic rod or via the trait Magical Lineage)?

EDIT: Another possibility is to use the Words of Power subsystem, which has two ray-like level 1 spells (Shock Arc and Burning Flash).

Liberty's Edge

So you would rather have a ray that probably would max out at 5d6+30 that may miss and you have to worry about DR vs. a 5d4+35 attack that never misses and you only have to worry if they have Shield on? So we are talking 48 damage that probably only hits 75% of the time at best [I would probably take it to 50% given a 12th lvl wizards BAB] for about 36 points of damage vs. a guarantee of 48 points of damage.

You may want it for effect, but I don't see the logic. Besides, you have a perfectly good ray attack at lvl 2.


DR has no effect on ablating spell damage, unless it specifically says so like Diamond Spray. As for rolling to hit, yes. There is the chance that I'll crit and confirm the hit, allowing the dice roll doubled, and there are feats that allow more dice to be added to the first level spell (like Intensify Spell, etc.) that boosts it up even more. It's not just the fact it's a first level ray spell; it's the fact that it'll be actually useful in a "BOOM! Head-shot!" type of spell that's gratuitously fun.

However, I don't know of any spell that maxes out at 5d6+30... where does the +30 come from?

Also, range touch attack is your best friend.

Edit: I didn't think of asking to use the wordcasting subsystem. I'll broach the subject to him over the weekend.

Liberty's Edge

Well, what about simply researching a new spell? You said your GM was only allowing base Pathfinder books, but that's in the Core rulebook.

Frankly, I'm glad that Pathfinder HASN'T been putting out tons and tons of largely redundant spells as was common in v3.5 materials. Once you've got the basics it is easy to adjust slightly to get a spell for any specific details you are looking for.


hogarth wrote:


How about Shocking Grasp with the Reach metamagic feat added for free (either with a metamagic rod or via the trait Magical Lineage)?

I just looked that up, and you solved my little dilemma. I had no idea that was in there, so I thank you humbly for pointing that out to me! +10 internets!


I think the reason that there are no 1st level energy ray spells in core pf are that ranged touch attacks start at second level and a 1st level ray spell would probably be better than scorching ray.

Reach metamagic shocking grasp is a good plan but take a look at words of power as well, they are a bit out of whack but still usable.


Magnetron wrote:
So, fellow pathfinders, why is it so hard to think outside of this box and officially publish by Paizo some alternative spells so that I (and anyone else that enjoys some risk) don't have to play kissy kissy face with the DM's derriere for something that's not published by Paizo?

Any ray-spell at first level would effectively replace the 2nd level ray spells, for one thing. For another, would it actually be in any way more useful than the existing spells?

You have burning hands, which is an area effect.

You have magic missile, which can't miss.

I can't see what a ray can offer next to them and not be unbalanced - except that it would look cooler.

If you do want to go third party, a kineticist (psion) or wilder from Psionics Unleashed by Dreamscarred Press would have a great energy ray which would be thematically what you seem to be looking for.


It must be TL; DR night...

I can't use ANY third party supplements at all. Period. He's ruled out the wordcasting system because of brokenness that's inherent: for example, the acid blast word spell with a duration of two rounds, being bumped to four rounds doing 10d6 each round with other word spell buffs, shows just how broken that system is.

The reach spell metamagic feat with the magical lineage trait will give me what I'm looking for since I can't get a Paizo endorsed energy based ray spell at 1st level.

Also, the Burning Hands spell is overused and underpowered, and I can't stand the Magic Missile spell. You can't get rolled confirmed crits, and some feats are wasted on those two spells. I'm not knocking others using those spells, but I like rays and no, ray spells aren't broken.

Edit: All my second level spells memorized are scorching rays, not the metamagic'd shocking grasp, so your assumption that all the second level rays are replaced by what I'm using is moot, Dabbler.

Silver Crusade

Well, it doesn't offer crit damage like you're asking for, but have you looked at the Magical Lineage + Magic Missile + Toppling Spell Metamagic combo? It never misses for damage, and you get to roll to try and trip the enemy. And because of how MM works, you can have the missiles go after different targets, so you can try to trip up to five enemies with a single first level spell.


Have you asked if you can research spells?


Why not just play a wizard that specializes in Admixture? Then you can convert evocation rays to whatever element you want. Take metamagic feats to get the feel you want.

You can also specialize in any of the elemental schools.

Consider making wands that will also give you more rays, or ray like abilities. Take the Staff-Like Wand discovery and you can turn cheap wands into more powerful ones just by being awesome.


How about these spells:

non prd version of earpiercingscream

prd version of earpiercingscream

prd version of snapdragonfireworks
non prd version of earpiercingscream

Only real caveat is if the GM allows for Ultimate Magic spells to be used in the game. If not, there's still the evoker's force missile ability if all else fails.

Liberty's Edge

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Magnetron wrote:

DR has no effect on ablating spell damage, unless it specifically says so like Diamond Spray. As for rolling to hit, yes. There is the chance that I'll crit and confirm the hit, allowing the dice roll doubled, and there are feats that allow more dice to be added to the first level spell (like Intensify Spell, etc.) that boosts it up even more. It's not just the fact it's a first level ray spell; it's the fact that it'll be actually useful in a "BOOM! Head-shot!" type of spell that's gratuitously fun.

However, I don't know of any spell that maxes out at 5d6+30... where does the +30 come from?

Also, range touch attack is your best friend.

Edit: I didn't think of asking to use the wordcasting subsystem. I'll broach the subject to him over the weekend.

1. Okay, I didn't mean DR, I meant energy resistances.

2a. 5d6 because all 1st level spells as they are writen right now max at 5d6. So you are probably looking at something that is 1d6 per 2 levels maxing out at 5d6.
2b. the +30....I really can't believe I have to spell this out for you. Then Evoker bonus is 1/2 your level/die in bonus damage. So 12/2 = +6 x 5 = +30. Example: Shocking Grasp at 12th level = 5d6+30
3. So again, you want a spell that has a chance to miss for a 4% [5% x 75%] chance to double damage. Still don't see it.
4. Intensify huh? So how are you going to intensify this spell beyond 5d6? Say you can, you now are casting a 1st lvl spell as a 3rd level spell. WTF would you do that when you can just cast a 3rd lvl spell?
5. How are you going to design this spell? You can baseline it off of Shocking Grasp, but Shocking Grasp is touch spell with 1d6 damage/lvl in damage w/ a max for 5d6. Now you want that in a ranged attack. So how are you going to limit the spell so that it is now ranged? Only way I can see is that you make is 1d6/2 lvls. But what kind of range does that give you. I would make is close at best. This is supported by the fact that we are basically looking at a lvl 1 Scorching Ray and that is close ranged. So how are you going to Intesify this spell when it is already close range?

Meanwhile we still have Magic Missile with does more damage, always hits, doesn't have to worry about energy resistances, and has 4x the range.


You could always go with the Arcane Blast feat from the APG.

Arcane Blast:

Arcane Blast

You can convert any spell into an attack.

Prerequisites: Arcane spellcaster, caster level 10th.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can sacrifice a prepared spell or unused spell slot of 1st level or higher and transform it into a ray, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals 2d6 points of damage plus an additional 1d6 points of damage for every level of the spell or spell slot you sacrificed. 0-level spells may not be sacrificed in this manner.

Its not a spell but it would seem to solve your little problem.


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TClifford wrote:


2b. the +30....I really can't believe I have to spell this out for you. Then Evoker bonus is 1/2 your level/die in bonus damage. So 12/2 = +6 x 5 = +30. Example: Shocking Grasp at 12th level = 5d6+30

Um... you might want to reread the Evocation School again. It's 1/2 your level per spell. Not per die. So that would be 5d6+6 damage for the Shocking Grasp in your example.


Guys. Really, why is everyone susggesting spells (namely magic missile) that he has already said no to? He wants a ray. Our job is to find some way to get it. Why, or the facts that better options exist, is irrelevant.

You don't like burning hands, so why not make burning rays?

Burning Rays

The caster spreads his fingers outs in front of him and fires several rays from his fingertips, targeting all creatures in a 15 foot cone in front of him. A single ray is fired at all creaures in the area, requiring a separate ranged touch attack for each. Each creatures that is hit takes 1d4 points of fire damage per level (max 5d4), with a reflex save for half.

It is functionally the same as burning hands except for the attack roll, which makes it weaker. Your GM can't argue OP, and it is essentially a spell in PF.

And just so you know, the way you handle yourself makes a big difference in how people react to you. You just came off as a little grating earlier, which might explain the testy mood.

Liberty's Edge

Got me Merkatz. Missed that. Still, same effect. MM is better.

@TheRedArmy - Just becaue someone doesnt' like something still doesn't mean that it isn't the best option. Basically any 1st lvl ray that we come up with is going to be inferior to MM.

As has been stated, if he wants it, he is going to have to make it. For example:

Lesser Scorching Ray

School evocation [fire]; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 2d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.

Done. Personally, I wouldn't give it 2d6, but what ever.


Magnetron wrote:
Edit: All my second level spells memorized are scorching rays, not the metamagic'd shocking grasp, so your assumption that all the second level rays are replaced by what I'm using is moot, Dabbler.

You miss my point. If you have a 1st level ray spell, what damage should you give it? Well, if a 2nd level ray does 1d6/level or thereabouts, 1st level will have to 1d4 per level, because you do not want to create a 1st level spell that is better than a 2nd level spell (at 5th level it would be 5d4 damage to scorching ray's 4d6 damage, more would be unbalanced).

In effect, you have the damage of burning hands, but not the area effect, and you could miss. I don't see what you stand to gain from that, really, over the spells available, except that it would look thematic for your character concept. I have no problem with that, if that's what you want, I just don't expect Paizo to produce such a spell.


Dabbler wrote:
In effect, you have the damage of burning hands, but not the area effect, and you could miss. I don't see what you stand to gain from that, really, over the spells available, except that it would look thematic for your character concept.

On the bright side, the range (if you make it 'close') is better, plus you won't allow a save for half damage, so I'd consider the whole thing a viable first level spell.


Dabbler wrote:

You miss my point. If you have a 1st level ray spell, what damage should you give it? Well, if a 2nd level ray does 1d6/level or thereabouts, 1st level will have to 1d4 per level, because you do not want to create a 1st level spell that is better than a 2nd level spell (at 5th level it would be 5d4 damage to scorching ray's 4d6 damage, more would be unbalanced).

In effect, you have the damage of burning hands, but not the area effect, and you could miss. I don't see what you stand to gain from that, really, over the spells available, except that it would look thematic for your character concept. I have no problem with that, if that's what you want, I just don't expect Paizo to produce such a spell.

As I noted before, there are two level 1 Words of Power spells that effectively work that way (1d4/level, can be used either as a ray or in a cone a la Burning Hands, depending on the target word used) -- Burning Flash and Shock Arc.

Scarab Sages

Rays get little love in Core. The 101 line from Super Genius does a lot better, though. I would talk to your GM and see if you and him/her can create a 1st level ray spell for your character. Its easy enough to scale damage between the power of Ray of Frost and that of Scorching Ray (1d4 per level max 5d4, 1d6 per 2 levels, max 5d6). This might even start a side quest or something to recover a rare spell tome or something so that you can gain knowledge of this lesser known spell.


Midnight_Angel wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
In effect, you have the damage of burning hands, but not the area effect, and you could miss. I don't see what you stand to gain from that, really, over the spells available, except that it would look thematic for your character concept.
On the bright side, the range (if you make it 'close') is better, plus you won't allow a save for half damage, so I'd consider the whole thing a viable first level spell.

Fair enough, if you think it's viable.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
Magnetron wrote:
Edit: All my second level spells memorized are scorching rays, not the metamagic'd shocking grasp, so your assumption that all the second level rays are replaced by what I'm using is moot, Dabbler.

You miss my point. If you have a 1st level ray spell, what damage should you give it? Well, if a 2nd level ray does 1d6/level or thereabouts, 1st level will have to 1d4 per level, because you do not want to create a 1st level spell that is better than a 2nd level spell (at 5th level it would be 5d4 damage to scorching ray's 4d6 damage, more would be unbalanced).

In effect, you have the damage of burning hands, but not the area effect, and you could miss. I don't see what you stand to gain from that, really, over the spells available, except that it would look thematic for your character concept.

You would also have the benefit of there being no reflex save for the spell. Only resistances would apply.


I have to agree with the OP post in the fact that I am unhappy with the selection of spells in alot of way.

I generally create themed casters. Say a Storm Mage. Well there is shocking grasp for a first level spells but really melee at 1st level OUCH!!! The next Electricity attack spell that comes to mind is what Lightning bolt a 3rd level spells. So until 5th level im stuck using shocking graps. Sure I can take Admixture school or Elemental spell feat but should I have to spend a Feat or choose an Archetype just so that I can have access to spells that fit my theme.

Sure Direct damage spells are not the most effective combat spells but they are FUN!!! Or at least I think so. I would much prefer to see a mixure of elemental spells (rays/Area of effects and touch attack) at each level.

If not that, why can't Scorching Ray be just "Elemental" Ray and when you learn it you select an energy type and from that point on it is Freezing Ray, Acid Ray, Shocking Ray, etc....

Liberty's Edge

FreelanceEvilGenius wrote:

I have to agree with the OP post in the fact that I am unhappy with the selection of spells in alot of way.

I generally create themed casters. Say a Storm Mage. Well there is shocking grasp for a first level spells but really melee at 1st level OUCH!!! The next Electricity attack spell that comes to mind is what Lightning bolt a 3rd level spells. So until 5th level im stuck using shocking graps. Sure I can take Admixture school or Elemental spell feat but should I have to spend a Feat or choose an Archetype just so that I can have access to spells that fit my theme.

Yes. That is what archetypes and feats are for. Printing a spell of every level for every possible theme would consume far more of Paizo's time than would be profitable.

Silver Crusade

FreelanceEvilGenius wrote:

I have to agree with the OP post in the fact that I am unhappy with the selection of spells in alot of way.

I generally create themed casters. Say a Storm Mage. Well there is shocking grasp for a first level spells but really melee at 1st level OUCH!!! The next Electricity attack spell that comes to mind is what Lightning bolt a 3rd level spells. So until 5th level im stuck using shocking graps. Sure I can take Admixture school or Elemental spell feat but should I have to spend a Feat or choose an Archetype just so that I can have access to spells that fit my theme.

Sure Direct damage spells are not the most effective combat spells but they are FUN!!! Or at least I think so. I would much prefer to see a mixure of elemental spells (rays/Area of effects and touch attack) at each level.

If not that, why can't Scorching Ray be just "Elemental" Ray and when you learn it you select an energy type and from that point on it is Freezing Ray, Acid Ray, Shocking Ray, etc....

Magical Lineage Trait + Shocking Grasp + Reach Metamagic Feat = Shocking Grasp from 25 feet away as a level 1 spell, or cast it from 100 feet away as a level 2 spell. Is that enough direct damage ranged electricity for you until you pick up lightning bolt as a 3rd level spell?


Words of Power is an incredible boon to themed casters. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and you lose versatility, but it's an awesome way to play an X-themed caster most of the time. Not only do you have a lightning spell for every level, but you have a bunch of lightning spells for every level. You can be a real lightning lord.

Silver Crusade

Joyd wrote:
You can be a real lightning lord.

Or a Lightning Lad or Lightning Lass, if you don't want to be evil.

[/LSH]


Fromper wrote:
FreelanceEvilGenius wrote:

I have to agree with the OP post in the fact that I am unhappy with the selection of spells in alot of way.

I generally create themed casters. Say a Storm Mage. Well there is shocking grasp for a first level spells but really melee at 1st level OUCH!!! The next Electricity attack spell that comes to mind is what Lightning bolt a 3rd level spells. So until 5th level im stuck using shocking graps. Sure I can take Admixture school or Elemental spell feat but should I have to spend a Feat or choose an Archetype just so that I can have access to spells that fit my theme.

Sure Direct damage spells are not the most effective combat spells but they are FUN!!! Or at least I think so. I would much prefer to see a mixure of elemental spells (rays/Area of effects and touch attack) at each level.

If not that, why can't Scorching Ray be just "Elemental" Ray and when you learn it you select an energy type and from that point on it is Freezing Ray, Acid Ray, Shocking Ray, etc....

Magical Lineage Trait + Shocking Grasp + Reach Metamagic Feat = Shocking Grasp from 25 feet away as a level 1 spell, or cast it from 100 feet away as a level 2 spell. Is that enough direct damage ranged electricity for you until you pick up lightning bolt as a 3rd level spell?

That's the point I am trying to make. If I want to shoot a Lightning Ray rather than a Scorching Ray i have to either

a) Spend a feat to change the Elemental type and increases the spell level..
b) Take a special archetype that lets me do it.
c) Take a trait and a feat (Magical Lineage + Reach.
d) Spend money and time researching a new spell.

Just so that I can be a lightning themed caster rather than a fire themed. There really is very little mechanical advantage yet it requried mechanical resourses to accomplish. Sure fire is the most resisted but it is also one of the elements that some classic creatures are vulnerable to (trolls, etc..)

My suggestion would be to make a few spells more free form.

As in, Scorching Ray could be Elemental Ray just leave the Fire descriptor off and add the following line at the end.

"There are different version of this spell each using a different element (fire, electricity, cold, acid). Each version inflicts damage based on its enregy type and has the appropriate descriptor. Each version must be learned seperately."

I have always had this as a house rule in my game. As long as the mechanics are sound with the new element I allow any caster to substitute another element when the spell is learned. It is locked from that point.


elemental bloodline sorcerers get scorching ray with its energy type changed to their element as a bloodline spell so i can't see how that would be an issue.

I am also not quite sure what the second level spell scorching ray has to do with the conversation other than a really good level 1 ray would make it a worthless spell.

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