PFS #2-02 Before the Dawn, Part II

[Ballig]

Apologies if this has been asked before, I did a search and wasn't able to find specifically this being mentioned. Please point to a post that has addressed it if it exists.

Spoiler:

In the first encounter, at tier 1-2, the Aspis Consortium mercenaries and the captain are riding mounts not trained in combat. The core rulebook says that controlling a mount that is not combat trained requires a DC 20 ride check. The scenario, although pointing to that rule, uses the term "melee combat". I have seen more than one GM run this as being only when the mounts are within 5 feet of an opponent wielding a melee weapon is the check made. This seems to make the encounter incredibly difficult, almost always resulting in at least one death, especially when they are fighting 8+ mercenaries along with the charging captain.

Having said that, assuming the captain must make a ride check every round as long as he is in battle, which uses a movement action, can he still charge? I have had debates before over whether you are using the mount's actions or the character's actions when you charge.

Also, does anyone add difficult terrain to this encounter? This was almost suicide for one party (one character did die), and I felt the GM was a little liberal in the captain being able to charge from one side of the map to the other every round, using ride-by attack, without any form of hindrance. This may have only been an issue with the lack of ride checks though.

tl;dr - dot points!

• SCENARIO refers to controlling untrained mounts in combat, referring specifically to the core rulebook section on the Ride skill. However, while summarising the rule, uses the term "enter melee combat".

• The CORE RULEBOOK, specifically referenced by the scenario, uses the term "while in battle". Further, the Mounted Combat section of the rulebook is quite explicit about untrained mounts being frightened in combat and requiring a DC 20 Ride check.

• I would suggest that the intention for this encounter is for every opponent, mercenaries and captain alike, to make the ride check every round of combat as appears to be the case RAW in the core rulebook, and not just while a mount is within 5 feet of a melee combatant.

• If the above suggestion is indeed the case, can the captain still charge as in his tactics? He uses a movement action and charge is full-round. It seems to me, according to the Mounted Combat rule of the core rulebook, the mount makes the charge and the captain is just using a standard action at the end of it to make an attack. Therefore, he could control his mount with a movement action and still charge as per tactics.

• Should this map have difficult terrain? Or, as someone just pointed out to me, are those TREES dotting the landscape and therefore completely impassable? The last GM I saw run this ignored the trees (which I thought might have been bushes causing difficult terrain) and just charged right over them.

[ZomB]

See the Rescue at Azlant Ridge thread.

Ride checks only apply if they are in melee combat,

Spoiler:

which is why they stand off and fire bows at range. It also means the charge by the captain has an extra chance of failing to hit which is good as that charge with a lance can kill a low level character.

Note the width of the path and that horses are large animals - ten foot wide.

I have run this several times and have found it hard to make this encounter a challenge - unless one of the the attackers crits of course.

[Ballig]

ZomB wrote:

Ride checks only apply if they are in melee combat

So the consensus is that the scenario is intentionally making a new rule for these mounts even though it refers specifically to the rule in the core rulebook? And not that the scenario mistakenly used the word "melee" when summarising the official rule?

ZomB wrote:

Spoiler:

It also means the charge by the captain has an extra chance of failing to hit which is good as that charge with a lance can kill a low level character.

That's something. The last time I saw it run, that didn't happen.

Spoiler:

Also, as you mention the path, that suggests that you don't allow movement through the green leafy sections of the map? Or that you consider them shrubs/undergrowth and therefore difficult terrain that can't be charged through? The last time this was run, the GM allowed the captain to charge through the 150x150 ft area without restriction, no ride checks, and was therefore doing 2d8+6 damage every round at tier 1-2. Hence the questions.

[ZomB]

Ballig wrote:

So the consensus is that the scenario is intentionally making a new rule for these mounts even though it refers specifically to the rule in the core rulebook? And not that the scenario mistakenly used the word "melee" when summarising the official rule?

If you are not in melee you are not in combat as far as the horse is concerned. The horse doesn't know you have rolled initiative.

I edited my post for the terrain, its either swamp water or trees.

[Howie23]

Ballig wrote:

So the consensus is that the scenario is intentionally making a new rule for these mounts even though it refers specifically to the rule in the core rulebook? And not that the scenario mistakenly used the word "melee" when summarising the official rule?

I'd suggest that the concensus is that the core rule is subject to interpretation and that the scenario is providing some guidance to indicate when the rule comes into play.

Hidden Stuff:

Mounted combat was problematic regarding interpretation in 3.5 and PF didn't fix it. There is a link in my profile that has the Rules of the Game articles on Mounted Combat, which serve as a decent standard for applying the rules.

Standard interpretation is that riders can take actions while their mount is moving. Whether the rider can do so while charging is not particularly clear; what is clear is that the author intended the rider to be able to make the Ride check during a charge given that he mounted an NPC with Ride-By Attack on a mount that would require the Ride check to make a charge, else he thought that this was not engaging in combat resulting in the check not being needed. However, RBA is subject to particular rules, which even the developers were not clear on when they revised the 3.5 SRD to create PF. The mechanics of charge require charging to the nearest square from which the attack can be made. The mechanics of RBA require riding beyond that square, which often results in needing to ride into the the square of the target to continue past the target.

I would think that it is pretty clear that charging a mount would be engaging in melee combat and should be subject to the Ride check, but it may not be clear to everyone. When I've run the scenario, I've required the Ride check for the lancer, and applied the RBA charge limits as I understand them. Making the RBA checks in an unlimited fashion does make them much more effective, and I've even seen GMs bend charges with RBA. So, what is experienced at a given table can be rather varied, which is not atypical when the rules themselves are rather unclear.

As a comment, historical tactics often involved targeting the horse rather than the lancer; the mount typically is an easier target. This works well in PF as well.

[Ballig]

Howie23 wrote:

I'd suggest that the concensus is that the core rule is subject to interpretation and that the scenario is providing some guidance to indicate when the rule comes into play.

Spoiler:

I guess I'm surprised that the common interpretation of "while in battle" and "in combat" (the phrases used in the Core Rulebook while describing when the Ride check is required with an untrained mount) is only melee. It makes sense that if the archer is on a horse 100 feet away and shooting then the horse may not be close enough to the fray to be spooked, but if they're only 30 feet away I'm sure the sight, sounds and smell of combat would be enough to frighten it.

Having said that, for this particular scenario a Ride check only on the charge would have been enough to prevent it being a guaranteed killer. This particular GM interpreted "melee" as being only when making attacks with a 5ft reach, and not the reach of the lance.

As the GM had ignored all the trees/undergrowth (I'm told she did it to make things less complex, although she alternatively suggested that she thought they were "just eyecandy"), there was no issue with getting exact angles for Ride-by Attack. Also, again because of the lack of difficult terrain or anything hindering charge, the captain never ended his turn anywhere near another character. Unfortunately no serious ranged attackers and people were using all their actions to just survive with that many lanced charges to be able to ready an attack against the horse (although, without reach weapons and the lance being reach, that would have been hard too).

Two casts of grease on the lance was the only thing that saved the day.

[Avatar-1]

Spoiler:

Ballig wrote:

Two casts of grease on the lance was the only thing that saved the day.

...for 3 of the 4 characters, at least. 3 of the 5 if you include the eidolon.

[TriOmegaZero]

Prepping this for my group and I notice the mooks in the first encounter are supposed to ride around the edge of the battle shooting longbows at the party.

The problem being that longbows cannot be used from horseback. Should I change it to shortbows or have them dismount?

[ZomB]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

The problem being that longbows cannot be used from horseback. Should I change it to shortbows or have them dismount?

Suggested in the original thread that it should say composite longbow with no strength bonus.

[TriOmegaZero]

Thanks!