Is it possible to make a powerful PFS bard?

[Axebeard]

I've played powerful wizards, powerful sorcerers, powerful clerics, powerful fighters, and powerful barbarians. Now, I'd like to do something else. I'd like to make a powerful bard, but one who retains his ability to buff the party (so no dervish dancer). I'd also like to not do an archer bard build, as that leaves absolutely zero feats to do cool bard stuff.

By powerful, I mean capable of contributing in a meaningful way in melee combat (even with a reach weapon, if that's the better route) while still being a potent party buffer.

I realize that this may not be possible. I'm currently sifting through a lot of feats to see what might work and what doesn't, but I would LOVE some guidance on this. If this doesn't work, I can always build an inquisitor, as they serve similar goals: Good skills, and lots of pain while still having some spells capable of buffing party members (and self).

I'm considering Arcane Duelist, but losing versatile performance hurts a bit. It doesn't hurt TOO much, because in PFS, building for versatile performance means eating a lot of dead skill points for a while, but it DOES hurt.

So here's where I'd like advice: Feats, tactics, and spells. I've considered a maneuver bard with a whip, but the drooping CMB and lack of bonus feats seems a little prohibitive. Is it?

Also, would an alchemist be a better way to achieve party buffing/damage capability? My only hard and fast restriction with this character is 3/4 BAB and max level 6 spells (or infusions). And I'd rather not play a magus. I know they're good, so there's no real challenge there.

So! Good feats, spells, and tactics for a melee bard that still buffs the party like a madman?

[Axebeard]

Oh, and I know that there's a treantmonk guide for bards, but it's really old and probably only reflects about 25% of the actual bard material available.

[Cheapy]

I haven't thought too hard on this, but perhaps a longspear (or some other 2 handed reach weapon if you're half elf) and this feat? Get a decent Dex so you can make at least 2 AoOs a round. That feat basically means -1 to hit once you poke someone.

Grab Gallant Inspiration at level 4. +2d4 on a few types of rolls as an immediate action? Not bad.

[GnomePaladin]

The Treantmonk guide for bards IS old but still very much applicable and has two alternatives to the archer bard (the melee and controller bard).

Recommend giving it a read over anyways as it might not have all the information but the information it does have is still accurate.

[Axebeard]

GnomePaladin wrote:

The Treantmonk guide for bards IS old but still very much applicable and has two alternatives to the archer bard (the melee and controller bard).

Recommend giving it a read over anyways as it might not have all the information but the information it does have is still accurate.

Yeah, that's true. I didn't mean it wasn't really applicable anymore, but I do feel like its perspective that archer bards are THE way to go has to be viewed within the context of the resources available at the time.

I keep hearing that bards got all this cool stuff in UC and UM, and that's kind of what I'm inquiring after. If a guide were written now about bards, then the idea of spending all of your feats on becoming an archer bard would be weighted against these new options, whereas in an older piece it is not.

So I'll be sure to give it another look.

[Dorje Sylas]

Even with the new material the kinda main 3 builds for a Bard haven't really changed. At least in terms of the overall goal you're shooting for.

You melee self-buff.
Archer/Ranged self-buff.
Control/caster.

These 3 areas did not begin with Pathfinder but with 3.5 and all the supplement books of that edition.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

I had a bard PC in the Legacy of Fire campaign I ran. He buffed, had some crazy powerful spells (at least it seemed that way to me) and went whip/trip/disarm route. Towards the end, he was disarming most of the bad guys (his buffs, both inspire courage and good hope stack and apply to CMB when using his whip). I believe he took the dueling enchantment on his whip (started with the APG version, ended with the PFS Field Guide version if I remember right). And that was even before the whip mastery feats came out.

[StreamOfTheSky]

To quote the "Ask a Ninja" Ninja, "Nothing is impossible. But it is not very likely."

A melee bard... I would check out Suli or Fetchling for race. Also, the Eldritch Heritage feats can be nice for any charisma-based class, to get some sorcerer bloodline goodies.

UC added very little of use for bards other than the dervish dancer archetype and maybe some new spells. UM, I forget everything bards got for options in there. The Masterpieces are one thing, but other than the low level one to boost party move speed, none really impressed me, I'd rather keep the spells.

I don't know many good feats for you, honestly. Osyluth Guile feat is pretty cool, add cha modifier to AC against one foe.

[james maissen]

Axebeard wrote:

And I'd rather not play a magus. I know they're good, so there's no real challenge there.

Well to go directly against what you said..

Was toying with a whip tripper build.. 1/2orc (lorewarden)fighter3/(hex)magusX.

It would be a magus without metamagic feats, spell lineage, and doesn't use shocking grasp. So calling it a magus is a bit off... ;)

But it does sound kind like what you're asking for.. a middle range kinda character... aka 'light infantry' so to speak.

-James

[Beebs]

Based on the other comments in this thread,

Human Arcane Duelist

Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus: Longspear (human bonus), Arcane Strike (class bonus)
2: Combat Casting (class bonus)
3: Lingering Performance
5: Spear Dancer

Seems like a pretty reasonable start.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Except you can't take Weapon Focus Longspear at first level. You don't have a +1 bab.

[Axebeard]

Are there any traits besides Heirloom Weapon that add to your CMB, even for specific maneuvers?

[Beebs]

Oops! Unless I'm being stupid again you can take lingering performance at first level so you could just switch those.

Or if you went with a standard bard you could take weapon focus at level 3 and delay lingering performance until level 7.

[vonklinen]

Axebeard wrote:

Oh, and I know that there's a treantmonk guide for bards, but it's really old and probably only reflects about 25% of the actual bard material available.

There are a lot of recent contributions to this thread. It really helped me. You should check it out.

[Derwalt]

Think about going Synthesist Summoner for a 1 lvl dip. You can get some pretty awesome physical stats and bump your cha to 20 with a little min-maxing. I would also think about going 1 lvl maneuver master monk - for both the AC bonus and the extra combat maneuver on every full attack (but then don't bump cha to 20, but to 16 or 17 and then bump wis too). The build is a little cheesy though... But all multi class builds using syntheist kind of is :)

[calagnar]

I just started my PFS bard. Get Lingering Performance at level 1. This will help allot at this level. Start inspire courage and let it go after the first round. This will let you use it for almost every combat. IMO plane bard is over all the best for PFSP. The over all knowledge skill's and versatile performance Oratory (Diplomacy/Sense Motive). Are some of the most important for missions.

The thing you do need to do is decide what is more important. I'm making a Dex / weapon finess fighter. It is not optimal for damage I know. The goal is to get higher in the initiative order to maximize the effect of the inspire courage and buffs. You can go the Str route and be much better at combat your self. Throw this puts your place in the initiative order lower and makes your inspire courage less effective. As most fights last one to three rounds.

(I do not have all the feet's yet. This is what I have planed for my character.)
Human Bard
1: Weapon Finess
1: Lingering Performance
3: Improved Initiative
5: Quick Draw (For wands and/or meta magic rods. Going for metamagic rod Persistent, and Quicken. Using Quicken rod to Swif Action cast good hope, Move action Inspire Courage, Standard action cast haste. This will come up at later levels. Some time around 8-9 becouse of the coast of the metamagic rod quicken lesser.)
7: Combat Reflexes
9: Step Up (This was a tough choice. I was really thinking of going with two weapon fighting. Decided that step up wold work better when fighting casters. As they can not longer take a 5ft Step and cast. And if they move more then 5ft AoO.)
11: Discordant Voice (Who dose not want extra damage from inspire courage.)

[Cheapy]

Quick Draw doesn't work with wands and rods, I don't think. Rods are only weapon-like if they are made that way.

[calagnar]

Have wand/rod in main hand cast off hand. Quick Draw weapon after. You must have one free hand to cast spells. So if you have your weapon and a wand/rod out you can not cast spells.

[blackbloodtroll]

Glove of storing and efficient quiver does the trick.

[Charlie Bell]

Since all your bard buffs give you static, numeric bonuses to damage, crit builds work well for a melee bard. I'm playing a melee bard in CotCT and I can dish out respectable damage--certainly not as much as the dedicated melee types when they get all the same buffs I do--but respectable nonetheless.

Avoid any bard archetypes that replace inspire courage; it's too good to replace. I consider inspire courage, good hope, and haste to be my "staple" buffs. At 7th level, with inspire courage and good hope up, you'll have, and be giving the entire party, +4 to attack and damage and +2 on all saving throws. Allegro can fill the role of haste for self-buff purposes until you get real haste. Likewise, heroism is kind of like good hope junior except it doesn't give you a damage bonus.

Arcane Strike gives you a small, stacking static bonus to damage and should not be overlooked.

I went with a Dex build with an agile keen rapier. For PFS play that's prohibitively expensive, but you accomplish the same thing with a scimitar and Dervish Dance (although I personally despise Dervish Dance builds). Pirahna Strike can be helpful as well since your buffs will more than compensate for the attack penalty.

The biggest problem is that you will be a glass cannon: you can get your AC up to respectable levels with certain buffs (such as UMD + wand of shield), but you won't ever have great hp.

[Jiggy]

Axebeard wrote:

I'd like to make a powerful bard, but one who retains his ability to buff the party (so no dervish dancer).

Does Inspire Courage really need to be the way in which you buff the party?

The party Barbarian might appreciate you casting invigorate more than activating Inspire Courage, you know?

The Rogue might appreciate you casting vanish more than activating Inspire Courage.

And so forth.

Wanting to keep Inspire Courage probably has more to do with it being a "sacred cow" than actually being all that useful.

[Corian]

I have built 2 different melee Bards but both in 3.5. One was an Orog the other was a Centaur. Both solved the 2 major problems with being a melee Bard.

1) You only have 3/4 Bab which leaves you hurting for ability to hit, the melee Cleric can make up for this with long term buffs and high strength

2) You have low Hps...very low for a front liner, this means you need to have a high Con and possibly the Toughness feat as well to make up for the lack of HPs

You also have a host of lesser problems, poor weapon proficiencies inability to wear decent armor and at low levels you must spend your first action in every combat buffing. Pathfinders faster inspire courage at high levels helps deal with this but the massively reduced duration means that you have to pick and choose when to buff.

With the base races in Pathfinder while it is possible to build a melee Bard it is very difficult to make an effective melee Bard.

[Cheapy]

Jiggy wrote:

Wanting to keep Inspire Courage probably has more to do with it being a "sacred cow" than actually being all that useful.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

Corian wrote:

1) You only have 3/4 Bab which leaves you hurting for ability to hit, the melee Cleric can make up for this with long term buffs and high strength

Bard can have high strength too, and the main "long term buff" that bards don't have but clerics do is Greater Magic Weapon. Bards do however have Heroism which is still fairly long term. They also have Good Hope, Haste, etc.

Corian wrote:

2) You have low Hps...very low for a front liner, this means you need to have a high Con and possibly the Toughness feat as well to make up for the lack of HPs

Yep, same issue as the cleric, but with light armor (so realistically having 1-3 less AC). You still have your full move speed, so if things turn sour, you don't have to run faster than everyone else...just the guys in medium / heavy armor. Until Celestial Armor comes into play, of course. At which point the armor difference is nil. But to make up for it, if you really need defenses, you can cast Mirror Image, Blur, etc.

Trying to compare the 3.5 bard to the PF bard is like comparing an M&M to the moon. Sure, there are some superficial similarities. But they are entirely different things.

[TarkXT]

A melee half orc bard wielding a falchion and spending a feat or two getting the orc blood line traits can quite frankly hit like a beast.

[Jiggy]

Cheapy wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Wanting to keep Inspire Courage probably has more to do with it being a "sacred cow" than actually being all that useful.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

Could you elaborate? I admit I've got limited experience with bards, so this is partially conjecture, and I'd love to hear more.

My thinking is that traditional Inspire Courage is a standard action to activate, has a limited number of rounds, and grants +1/+1 (hit/damage). In a way it's comparable to bless, except that if the fight only lasts a couple of rounds you might get to "cast" it again in another fight. This eventually gets better at higher levels, but PFS starting at 1st and capping at 12th means there's not much time for payback on a rough investment.

Meanwhile, the Dawnflower Dervish (not to be confused with the Dervish Dancer, or even with the fighter archetype that's also called "Dawnflower Dervish") can activate a battle dance as a move action instead of standard and gets +2/+2 instead of +1/+1 right out of the gate (not to mention the Dervish Dance feat at 1st level sans prereqs).

The Archaeologist gives up performance for Archaeologist's luck - it's still just a +1 bonus, but applies to (IIRC) attacks, damage, skills, and saves. And even better, it's only a swift action to activate, making it unlikely to affect your turn in any material way. Plus you get rogue talents eventually, some of which can be really good.

So what is it that makes traditional Inspire Courage so great?

[Beebs]

Just another build stub. Seems that there are a lot of pretty solid options for a melee bard!

Half-elf Archeologist (or Arcane Duelist or regular Bard)

Feats: Lingering Performance, Arcane Strike

Either using a falcata and a buckler or a fauchard (use the half-elf alternate racial trait for proficiency).

At level 5 with Heroism and Inspire Courage or Archeologist's Luck active and using Arcane Strike, you've got +4 hit and +4 damage with either a d10 18-20/x2 reach weapon or a d8 19-20/x3 one-handed weapon (use a buckler if you're worried about defense, 2-handed for max damage). And it just gets better from there once you've got haste, a +1 Keen weapon, etc.

[Axebeard]

Jiggy wrote:

So what is it that makes traditional Inspire Courage so great?

I think that your comparison oversimplifies things a little bit. The two abilities you mentioned, Archaeologist's Luck and the Dawnflower Dervish's battle dance both only affect the bard. I'd be willing to use a standard (And later, a move action) to buff the entire party instead of spending a lesser one to only buff myself.

In your previous post, you also mentioned that a barbarian might prefer Invigorate, and the rogue might prefer Vanish. That may be true, but Inspire Courage will boost both of them at once, letting you follow up with specific spells should the situation warrant. Using bardsong instead of spellcasting also depletes a different resource than your arcane spells, leaving your spells open to other uses.

Inspire Courage also benefits from granting a rare bonus type: Competence. It will stack with Bless/Good Hope, Prayer, Haste, and most other of the bread-and-butter bonuses that you see thrown down by other spellcasters. It does not stack with bracers of archery or the green prism ioun stone, but both of those are expensive items, except the lesser bracers.

So inspire courage is a good option because of the type of bonus it provides, its beneficial effect on an entire party, and the frequency with which you get to use it, especially with the relatively minor investment of one feat in Lingering Performance.

[Axebeard]

Beebs wrote:

Either using a falcata and a buckler or a fauchard (use the half-elf alternate racial trait for proficiency).

I had actually considered going half-elf with a fauchard, but I had never played a character who had a reach weapon before and was concerned about the potential for being backed into a corner: Because, honestly a reach weapon helps to mitigate having a poor AC, and allows spellcasting to be accomplished more easily.

Anyone out there with some experience with reach weapons have any insight into how commonly you're in a position where you're unable to step away?

Also, the fauchard has trip, which means that doing some combat maneuvers is still possible if you can locate the featspace.

[Cheapy]

What Axebeard said. Those archetypes have wonderful replacements and are great for the bard, but, especially in larger groups with 3+ martial types, Inspire Courage can really help. +1 can be the difference between 0 damage and >0 damage, especially at level 1 where the die still matters more than the bonus. That rogue's DPR increases by 30% if they aren't sneak attacking (20% if they are). A power attacking greatsword fighter gets a +15% boost. Barbarian gets a ~12% boost (whether or not they're PAing). At level 1, that is.

I won't say you should always use it, as sometimes it's better to just whack things. But using your judgement for when to activate it and you can really help out.

In the same vein, Timely Inspiration is a wonderful little spell if you don't plan on always using Inspire Courage. If you're fairly sure that the attack missed by 1, you can really change the tide of battle.

Finally, I'm not sure how the dawnflower dervish's 2x thing got through balancing -_-

Oh, and Invigorate is 10 mins / level, so use it before hand. Or better yet, have the barbarian buy you scrolls of it, and use your limited spell slots for other things.

[cranewings]

Axebeard, if you think you can get backed into a corner, just drop your weapon and draw a rapier. You can't move so spending a move action to draw a weapon isn't bad. The only penalty really is losing your secondary attack provided you are high enough level to have one. If losing full attack really pisses you off, just draw a weapon and cast a spell.

I love using reach weapons. I've rarely been backed into a corner, though I am a big fan of quick draw.

[Cheapy]

Trip weapon quality doesn't help as much as the other weapon qualities do. It's not +2 to trip :(

Spiked gauntlets (possibly) will help, and armor spikes *will* help. You'll take a -4 to hit with them since they're martial, but it's still an option. Or take Catch-Off Guard and use the pole of the weapon to attack. Just kinda...whack them with the pole.

[Atarlost]

I'm not sure about item availability in PFS, but I think with 20 PB you can make TWF work if you can count on getting a headband for charisma. You would wind up with something that looks kind of like a TWF rogue, but instead of stacking on average 1.25 damage/level that doesn't crit you'd be stacking 0.5 damage/level that does multiply on crits over the course of you PFS career from arcane strike and inspire courage. And be able to get it without flanking or being invisible and get accuracy boosts as well. Maybe even enough to Piranha Strike if you have the book.

I do recall that to use anything in PFS that's not from the CRB or the society field guide and maybe there's one other society book, that you need a copy of the book to bring to the table or a printout of the PDF so it might help to know what books/PDFs you've got. If you've been relying on the PRD for your content you may as well read Treantmonk since that's about all you're getting.

[Axebeard]

Alright, a build is starting to coalesce on paper.

Any particularly useful traits out there for bards, users of reach weapons, or ones that are just generally excellent? Off the top of my head I can think of maestro of the society (or whichever one grants extra rounds of performance) and reactionary to start the bardsong sooner, but... beyond that, I'm drawing blanks.

[aaron Ellis]

Responding to the reach weapon 'backed in a corner' query.

I'm playing a high dexterity, higher strength Dervish Dancer bard with a fauchard, cestus, arcane strike and combat reflexes.

My character has had to drop her pole arm once or twice, but she never lost momentum. She just continued the fight with her spiky leather fist and high damage bonus. Scored a couple of nice kills that way, even decapitated a fellow party member. Good times.

Anyway, with the right backup equipment and feats you should never feel trapped using a reach weapon.

[Mike Schneider]

Axebeard wrote:

I'd like to make a powerful bard, but one who retains his ability to buff the party (so no dervish dancer).

The Dawnflower Dervish archetype (which grants DD free at 1st level) has an opt-out clause: if you ever stop worshiping Sarenrea, you revert to normal CRB bard (which is something a PFS bard could do at 5th when he finally has the prestige and cash for an Agile weapon). Basically you're +2/+2 "Battle Dancing" personally until 5th, then +2/+2 to everyone in the party.

Jiggy wrote:

Wanting to keep Inspire Courage probably has more to do with it being a "sacred cow" than actually being all that useful.

+2/+2 att/dmg is the equivalent of a free +4 belt for everyone in the party, and it comes right before all the tanks hit BAB6 and pick up a -5 iterative that could use a little help hitting.

At 7th, IC is a move action, so the bard also pops Heroism or Haste in the same round.

= = = = = =

Melee bards in module-play have some tough challenges to overcome: lower armor class (due to light armor restriction) and poor fort saves. -- If there's one general rule about PFS combats, it is this: you're either cake-walking or getting your ass handed to you. There are a LOT of critters whose attacks have secondary fortitude saves at Tier 6+. (Last week, Jiggy's fighter was paralyzed when he rolled lousy, and got to be the stationary punching-bag of several advanced-template mummies for four rounds before he snapped out of it; it's doubtful a melee bard could have survived that assault useless very carefully built.)

If you're going to focus on melee, the best racial synergies are with gnome for the small size (+1/+1 att/AC) and CON bonus. I also recommend a one-level dip in a melee class at first level, with ranger being ideal.

STR-08
DEX:15 (bump 4th)
CON+16
INT:14
WIS:08
CHA+16 (bump 8th,12th)

traits: Eternal Hope (racial alt), Rapscallion, Armor Expert

01 ranger[urban], Improved Initiative
02 bard[dawnflower dervish][Dervish Dance]
03 bard2, Combat Expertise
04 bard3
05 bard4, Weapon Finesse
06 bard5 [revert CRB bard](Dervish Dance disappears; buy Agile scimitar)
07 bard6, Rapid Reload

...the goal here is to be very durable rather than a DPR juggernaut.

Equipment: +1 mithral breastplate, +1 buckler, +1/Agile cold-iron scimitar, +1/Merciful light crossbow, +2 Belt of Dexterity, Amulet of Natural Health +1, Ring of Protection +1, Handy Haversack, Cloak of Resistance....

Tactics: by stacking fighting defensively (AC+3 w/3 ranks Acrobatics) and Combat Expertise, you become nearly impossible to hit by most CR-equivalent mooks -- and if the bad guys waste a few rounds flailing against you, you've done your job.

[Cheapy]

Agile cannot be placed upon a scimitar. Unless you are cheesing.

[Mike Schneider]

<nod> ...have to put it on a kukri or scorpion whip (or take Samurai as the melee dip for wakizashis).

[Axebeard]

Cheapy wrote:

Agile cannot be placed upon a scimitar. Unless you are cheesing.

Not to mention that it loses proficiency with the scimitar when it reverts to CRB bard, although you could buy a rapier instead.

[calagnar]

GUIDE TO PATHFINDER SOCIETY ORGANIZED PLAY wrote:

Qadira Traits

Gold Finger: Your family comes from a long, proud
tradition of housebreaking and thievery. You are a strong
part of that tradition. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable
Device and Sleight of Hand checks, and one of these skills
(your choice) becomes a class skill for you.
Andoran Traits
Hunter’s Eye: Your parents had you blessed by the
god Erastil as a youth, and you are a prodigy with a
bow. You do not take any penalties for the second range
increment when using a longbow or shortbow, and
you are always considered proficient with one of these
weapons (your choice).

Or

Vagabond Child (urban): You grew up among the outcasts
and outlaws of your society, learning to forage and survive
in an urban environment. Select one of the following
skills: Disable Device, Escape Artist, or Sleight of Hand.
You gain a +1 trait bonus on that skill, and it is always a
class skill for you.

Two get you Disable Device as a class skill. The one skill you don't normal get. Hunter's Eye is not bad eather as you get proficient with long bow. Even if your not going range the little exta damage and range do not hurt. When you can't get in to melee.

[blackbloodtroll]

A gnome with the Master Tinker alternate racial trait is effectively proficient with whatever it feels like.

[Fromper]

calagnar wrote:

GUIDE TO PATHFINDER SOCIETY ORGANIZED PLAY wrote:

Qadira Traits

Gold Finger: Your family comes from a long, proud
tradition of housebreaking and thievery. You are a strong
part of that tradition. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable
Device and Sleight of Hand checks, and one of these skills
(your choice) becomes a class skill for you.
Andoran Traits
Hunter’s Eye: Your parents had you blessed by the
god Erastil as a youth, and you are a prodigy with a
bow. You do not take any penalties for the second range
increment when using a longbow or shortbow, and
you are always considered proficient with one of these
weapons (your choice).

Or

Vagabond Child (urban): You grew up among the outcasts
and outlaws of your society, learning to forage and survive
in an urban environment. Select one of the following
skills: Disable Device, Escape Artist, or Sleight of Hand.
You gain a +1 trait bonus on that skill, and it is always a
class skill for you.

Two get you Disable Device as a class skill. The one skill you don't normal get. Hunter's Eye is not bad eather as you get proficient with long bow. Even if your not going range the little exta damage and range do not hurt. When you can't get in to melee.

Heh. You just nailed my archer bard for PFS. I gave him the Hunter's Eye trait for longbow proficiency and Vagabond Child for Disable Device.

[Axebeard]

This brings up a valid point, though, that I had been considering. Choosing Arcane Duelist over vanilla bard is choosing combat over skills due to a loss of Versatile Performance, and going half-elf instead of human loses another skill point.

How skilled is it important for a bard to be, and what skills are best for PFS, (or bards in general)?

Diplomacy, Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device all seem pretty critical. Or maybe perform isn't actually critical now that it's not being used for quite as much. One thing that actually makes versatile performance a more painful loss is that a circlet of persuasion boosts every performance skill.

I feel like Linguisitcs can be left behind in favor of a wand of Comprehend Languages. Knowledges can slowly accumulate a point apiece to allow for rolls, and spellcraft is a skill whose use is characterized by "What's he casting?" *Roll check* "He's casting fireball." *fireball explodes.* When without the skill, it goes like "I wonder what he's casting." *fireball explodes* "Oh, it was fireball." Items are handily identified for you at the ends of modules, so... it seems less-than-critical.

And then there's Intimidate, which is usually only used when diplomacy fails, and disable device, which I've never seen used in a module. I'm currently debating between a couple of stat arrays, and one of them involves Str 15/Int 10 and the other Str 14/Int 12. I'm leaning towards the higher strength to improve my attack bonus more quickly.

[Mike Schneider]

Axebeard wrote:

(Mike Schneider's build) loses proficiency with the scimitar when it reverts to CRB bard, although you could buy a rapier instead.

It retains proficiency from the melee dip, which offers all martial weapons (in addition to medium armor, swim/climb/survival as class, etc).

[Axebeard]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Axebeard wrote:

(Mike Schneider's build) loses proficiency with the scimitar when it reverts to CRB bard, although you could buy a rapier instead.

It retains proficiency from the melee dip, which offers all martial weapons (in addition to medium armor, swim/climb/survival as class, etc).

Oh, you're absolutely right. My mistake.

Here's the current stat array I'm leaning towards. Feel free to tell me how terrible it is:

Str 15+2 (7) - Levels 4, 8, 12 go into strength.
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 8 (-2)
Cha 14 (5) - Headband here.

I'm looking at potential feats for the build. Could anyone offer some insight?

Shoe-in feats: Arcane Strike, Weapon Prof (Fauchard), Lingering Performance, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Discordant Voice

Considerations: Combat Reflexes, Furious Focus, Lunge, Antagonize, Fey Foundling, Spear Dancer, Toughness, Cornugon Smash

I'm leaning towards Combat Reflexes as a selection from the considerations pool, but Toughness is just a generic, good choice. Any suggestions on feats to drop from the shoe-in pool, or add to the shoe-in from the considerations pool? Or feats to drop altogether? If I went generic bard, I'd buy an ioun stone of +2 Intelligence to pick up another perform skill (And thus benefit again from versatile performance) at that point. Sort of a way to circumvent no retrains by dropping a few thousand gold. Generic bard would also acquire a circlet of persuasion to help with versatile performance.

[calagnar]

I just started PFSP a few Weeks ago. What I have seen so far Knowledge skills get used allot. Diplomacy, Perception, Bluff, Linguistics get used for faction missions. And linguistics is used for allot more then you can use comprehend language spell. I used my versatile performance at level 2 for oratory (Diplomacy/Sense Motive). Preparing for level 6 getting VP Act (Bluff/Disguise).

PRD wrote:

Linguistics

Check: You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form. The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, or very old writing. If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about the text. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.)
Create or Detect Forgeries: Forgery requires writing materials appropriate to the document being forged. To forge a document on which the handwriting is not specific to a person, you need only to have seen a similar document before, and you gain a +8 bonus on your check. To forge a signature, you need an autograph of that person to copy, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. To forge a longer document written in the hand of some particular person, a large sample of that person's handwriting is needed.

You might want to add in improved initiative. To your feet list.

circlet of persuasion
1 takes the head slot
2 offers only a bonus to cha skills
Headband of Cha
1 takes the head slot
2 Incress the number of spells and level of spells you can cast.
3 Incress the number of preformances per day you have.
4 Incress all cha skills
5 must be worn 24 hr to act as a base ability score.

[LazarX]

Axebeard wrote:

Anyone out there with some experience with reach weapons have any insight into how commonly you're in a position where you're unable to step away?

More common than you think... especially in those corriders that DM's and modules like to pack you in... or single file situations. Every style has it's tradeoffs.

[Mike Schneider]

Axebeard wrote:

Here's the current stat array I'm leaning towards. Feel free to tell me how terrible it is:

Str 15+2 (7) - Levels 4, 8, 12 go into strength.

You're basically building a "fighter" or "barbarian" whose gimmick is that he does Inspire Courage for his octane boost rather than rage or Weapon Training. The downside is lack of durability of the sort which isn't apparent in PFS until you get to Tier 6-7 and Tier 8-9 especially.

= = = = =

Plain vanilla human whip bard (mostly):

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:08
WIS:10
CHA:15

Trait: Accelerated Drinker

01 rang1 [urban], Improved Trip, Weapon Focus:Whip
02 bard1 [CRB]
03 monk1 [maneuver master][Improved Disarm], Shield Focus
04 bard2 ...rest bard

Tactics: drink potion of Enlarge Person; reposition bad guys over Grease or other hazard & trip. Party role is face, buff, 2nd-line melee.

[james maissen]

Mike Schneider wrote:

01 rang1 [urban], Improved Trip, Weapon Focus:Whip

Where would combat expertise be?

-James

[Cheapy]

james maissen wrote:

Mike Schneider wrote:

01 rang1 [urban], Improved Trip, Weapon Focus:Whip

Where would combat expertise be?

-James

It's a little known fact that since bards are so awesome, they can ignore Combat Expertise as a feat prereq.

[Charlie Bell]

Threatening Defender trait. It's almost like a free +1 to AC.