Mapping

[Scholar-at-Arms]

Hello all, I just recently learned about this game and what little I've seen has my interest. I have one big question that I haven't seen the answer to yet: do we know how mapping will work?

To me, a huge part of the excitement of an overland adventure is exploring new territory and mapping virgin wilderness. Expeditions to map hexes are a long-running part of the lineage of this game. What I would love to see is a skill, mapmaking, which requires certain materials and when it is exercised, creates a new map of a hex as that hex is explored. This map is then the property of the mapper, and can be shared with friends or sold to other adventurers. If you go into an uncleared hex without a map, you're taking your life into your own hands.

I glanced at the most recent blog post, and the triumvirate of PC roles lacked explorers, which worries me somewhat. I would love to be the first man to crest that peak and gaze down at the far side, or the first to trace this river to its nameless source. Part and parcel of exploration is being able to map your discoveries, and I think 'twould cheapen the thrill somewhat if everyone could see my finds by hitting 'm'.

[mallardman9]

perfect for all those DMs who are finally playing PCs

[KitNyx]

I hope...and submitted months ago (but was lashed by the community then), that there is no in game map. Let me rephrase that, there is no built in in-game map. I would like to see players have the ability to sketch a map as they go...if they wish. Maybe cartography merit badges would allow you to add built in landmarks (such as "big rock" or "camp") as well as duplicate and sell any subset of your current map (with would be player drawn as just suggested).

So, I definitely think you should have the option of using a minimap/map on your UI, but I suggest it uses whatever map you have in your inventory. This would allow explorers to sell maps and actually create a demand for local maps when players come to a new area to adventure.

[Arbalester]

Agreed wholeheartedly on the idea of players making the maps. If player unreliability/lying is an issue (and it most definitely is), do what Minecraft did: Have a map automatically fill in as the player explores. Players could even add notes to the maps, like "Gold vein here", or "Ghoul-infested ruins here"; something like that. It would give exploration-minded players something to do; scout around for encounters and resource nodes, make a map showing where they are, sell map for money, or give map to your guild/kingdom to use for adventures.

But please give us a minimap of the area immediately around the player. That's too handy not to have. The minimap's radius could even be based on Perception.

[HalfOrcHeavyMetal]

I would like to see Cartography as a Skill, (edit) or better yet, as a bonus to leveling your Survival-type Skill(s). Players will be able to make, and then sell/trade, maps. Those with higher Skills will be able to create more detailed/greater area viewed maps.

While the average PC would certainly be able to make their own maps, a dedicated Cartographer would be able to 'fill in' the map faster, and possibly even be able to add the locations of resources, camps (allied or otherwise) and markers for landmarks.

[Nihimon]

I too would love to see player-generated maps that we could browse when we look at the World Map.

However, I think there needs to be a rudimentary World Map that everyone has already, it just needs to lack a lot of detail. I also think the map I make as a cartographer should only slowly get more accurate and more detailed as I spend time in the area. I shouldn't be able to spend a weekend exploring a hex and have the whole hex mapped to perfection. I should be able to get a good map in that time, but there should be a lot of room for diminishing returns of ever greater detail and precision based on the amount of time I spend exploring that area.

I think there can be a lot of stuff built in to the rudimentary World Map that's populated based on your Lore skill. Sure, everyone knows that Fort Riverwatch is up in the north, and that Fort Inevitable is down in the south, and those should certainly appear on the World Map for everyone, along with the general outlines of the forest, and any major roads. As a player gains appropriate Lore in an area, I would like to see their map filled in to reflect that.

Perhaps that's the way the Exploration should work. The Explorer develops his Lore skill in an area, with Merit Badges to actually go out and find specific areas in the hex. This will have the nice curve of advancement where you gain a decent map fairly quickly, but can spend lots of time perfecting it. There could then be a Cartography skill that determined how well you were able to produce an in-game map that had all the information on your personal map.

[DeathMetal4tw]

I agree that the best maps should be player made. Sure, you should be able to start with a BASIC world map, but it should lack roads and details which should be added by cartographers. False maps would be fun too, just imagine the cartographer who sells an incorrect map and leads a group of adventurers into his bandit lair!

[Scholar-at-Arms]

I think KitNyx is on the right track. I definitely don't want there to be a single in-game map that every player can see. Part of the fun will be unequally distributed information. I can see the use of a very, VERY light world map which is filled in by two means:

Old-fashioned exploration, my favorite. Me, my iron rations, torches, and mapping supplies.
Aquiring maps and map locations via interaction. This could be accomplished in a number of ways.

(a)Buy maps from characters who have been exploring for a while and need some gold and supplies. This is straightforward player-player interaction and should be enabled and encouraged. I think it would be a lot of fun to spend month 1 just exploring, and get back to a starting town at the beginning of month 2 when all the fresh meat shows up. I'd be the grizzly one-eyed man in the bar who you have to talk to if you want to know where the dungeon is(Yes, I'm a GM. How did you know?)
(b)Buy maps from NPC cartographers who have maps of the nearest hexes. I'm not sure if I like this idea. Since unlike equipment, I don't envision maps as being consumable, having NPC cartographers could cripple PC cartographers at the beginning of the game. I imagine on Day One that every combat-oriented "club" player would rush to the NPC cartographer and buy a map of an adjacent hex, then rush there and start claiming dungeons, bypassing the exploration-oriented "spade" players who want to find those new locations.
(c)Treasure maps! What is more like sword-and-sorcery than finding a treasure map in some evil lair?
(d) Get key locations on a world map filled in by "adventure hook" NPCs, a la Baldur's Gate or Oblivion. The main difficulty with this is it sounds to me as if there aren't going to be adventures per se; if dungeons and lairs are procedurally generated rather than scripted it's hard to imagine the traditional adventure hooks. OTOH, it might happen something like this: Inside a civilised town a NPC is generated. A PC who talks to him will hear about his village which is threatened by bugbears and beg for help. If the PC agrees to help, the village and lair are generated and he is given a hex and rough location in that hex to find the village. It be simple for the NPC to then "go home"(despawn). Or he might not. He might sell the location of his sob story to a number of adventurers. After all, lots of help is better than a little. The PCs could cooperate, or it could turn into a race. And who's to say the situation is actually what he described...

It sounds to me from the last blog post the (d) isn't part of what they have planned. I think it would be a workable and fun addition to the PvE system though.

This probably isn't the right thread to mention this, but I also think that mapping key locations would become a very BAD thing if it then permitted instantaneous fast-travel to that location. I hope sincerely there's no such thing, barring Teleport spells.

[Valkaern]

I very much hope learning your way around counts for something and that geographical information remains somewhat esoteric. Hands down the best adventures I've ever had online were in the pre-map/mini-map days of rough guesses, guides, word of mouth and blind luck.

Having someone in the group suggest a dungeon I'd never heard in a zone I'd never been to lent the entire experience and journey an air of mystery. I clearly remember the many times we never reached the intended goal but found adventure elsewhere along the way - or got lost in Rathe mountains for hours while well below the level of the zone, almost lost our corpses to sharks in some ocean somewhere and got drunk back in Freeport to celebrate our eventual return to civilisation.

Did we walk away with some predetermined quest reward and a carefully rationed amount of XP? No. But I did walk away with an experience from 1999 that I fondly remember to this day.

None of that would have had the chance to happen if every area was revealed via in game maps/mini maps. Sure, mini maps make sense in linear task hub grinder themeparks, but in a sandbox environment they do more harm than good.

If they can incorporate in game player made maps as some of the above ideas suggest, that could truly be an amazing thing and would certainly appeal to a lot of people (provided there would be more and more new lands to map as the game expands).

If they can't manage to get a system like that in place, I'd settle for lack of GPS level maps on new born characters who would most likely only have a rough idea as to the shape of the lands beyond their town.

In short, I really hope the majority of wilderness is a mystery to me until I've arrived to see it, or until I open the map I just bought from a player in town.

[Blaeringr]

Ya, I like making players do their own mapping.

Big pet peeve of mine is players who won't do quests without a "guide".

[KitNyx]

Would be cool if players could give out a map with an x to mark the spot where the mission they are giving is premarked by the player giving the mission.

Example: Crafter will pay 25s for 5 pieces of iron ore. Known iron ore mine locations are at x, x, and x on the provided map.

Miners then select the map provided when they took the mission if they don't have their own known locations. I like the idea of having a variety of maps to use...all player drawn and of various sometimes overlapping areas.

[HalfOrcHeavyMetal]

Agreed, publicly known locations are relatively easy to find "Over yonder, about half a day, look for the dead tree that looks like a pair of amorous Flumphs" is one thing. But actual crucial landmarks, details and the like.

Also if Resources are slowly regenerating, as I hope they will be, this means that avoiding the publicly known locations will be the only real way to 'get ahead' of your competitors, at the downside of running off the beaten track and leaving your husk at the mercy of Bandits and Player Killers if your friends cannot find your corpse.

[DarkLightHitomi]

I don't want a minimap but a "radar" that tells me what direction and about far my character hears things, this would be helpfull when I can't hear anything. And the radar can be based on the perception skill. Also makes hearing invisible guys as feasable, a mark on my radar right in front of me but since I can't pinpoint an invisable guy I have to swing where I think I "hear" him and hope I connect. This actually captures the feel of the pnp spell.

Definatly a way to visually see what my character hears. I don't have speakers so the inability to trrack what's going on around me is bothersome.

[Daniel Powell 318]

Yes- unless character perception is meaningless, show everything that the character perceives, in a manner that a player with poor perception can handle.

[Mcduff]

Been browsing some old threads and I thought I'd toss this one back up. Maybe even get some designer perspective on the subject?

So far the consensus seems to favor some sort of minimal world map with sparse details, and possibly a small minimap for immediate surroundings.
Beyond that, there seems to be significant interest in player made maps for fun and profit. I'm certainly in favor of promoting exploration as a major feature of the game and I think this would be a solid way to do it.

If cartography is made into a specific skill (and not just a byproduct of survival or something) I think it'll be obscure enough that not allot of people will bother with it. Between being able to swing my mace better and being able to scribble on parchment more efficiently, I think most will choose the former. This isn't a bad thing however if it means there will be a legitimate market for map making. Nothing worse than investing time in a craft skill only to find that nobody wants or needs it.

Another option is to tie map making in with other literary or scribe-related skills. At the moment there is a discussion in the latest blog post thread involving spell books and libraries. If map making is considered too obscure to be it's own skill, it could be made a branch of a larger skill tree that covers everything from copying spell books, alchemical or blacksmithing recipes, and maps.

Finally, I'd love to hear some confirmation on the way maps will work in an ever changing sanbox environment. Initially, I'd assume lower skilled maps would need to be redone occasionally to account for changing kingdom territories, player built settlements, ect... though perhaps an advanced cartographer could craft a magical map that changes to reflect the current landscape. These would obviously be extremely hard to craft and very rare, meaning most people would have to rely on purchasing new maps every couple of months. Seems like a decent way to ensure a healthy market. Especially with the added fear of maps being lootable.

Thoughts, comments, concerns?

[Ravening]

Ryan made some comments about the mapping system in the Cartography thread. It may answer some of your questions.

[Mcduff]

Heh. The funny part is I already commented in that thread and forgot about it. I should pay more attention to where I've already been.

[AvenaOats]

Mcduff wrote:

Heh. The funny part is I already commented in that thread and forgot about it. I should pay more attention to where I've already been.

I think you're right to *ahem* explore this topic more. Exploration is one of the four main domains of the game, so I'd assume maps play a big (and interesting) part in that, if there is way to keep the world exciting in the balance between frontier and development. ;)

[Nihimon]

AvenaOats wrote:

I think you're right to *ahem* explore this topic more.

Well done. *golf clap*

[DeciusBrutus]

PFO is certainly venturing into....

Uncharted territory.

yeeeeaaaahhhh.

[Nihimon]

*sunglasses*