This came up in my latest game and I'm trying to find some clarification on the issue:
I ruled that the movement which occurs during Charge doesn't provoke an Attack of Opportunity(AoO) because of the entry on Table: Actions In Combat in the combat section of the book. Which simply says "No".
I am assuming that the No must refer to both the movement and the attack, because the movement is part of a Special Attack (as opposed to a Combat Maneuver). And after reviewing the text of charge:
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
I can't find anything that says the movement provokes an AoO. Furthermore the section on AoOs only says that movement out of a threatened square only usually provokes one.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.
Even will of this evidence that Charges don't provoke an AoO my gut still tells me that they do, and that there must be something somewhere that says the movement does. Thoughts?
|
http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html
On the chart, it lists it as a No for AoO. I believe though, if they set up a brace weapon as a readied action, they "sort of" hit you with an AoO... in a sense but not literally by any means. They're just using their readied action. Nowhere in the description does it say you receive an AoO for charging either. You already receive a -2 to AC for charging... getting hit with an AoO too would make this ability less than desirable.
I don't think they do unless you charge through a theatened area. Maybe you're thinking of a Bull Rush? Maybe you're thinking of charging with a Maneuver instead of an Attack?
this comes up in my game all the time does it provoke an aoo if you move through a threatened square? of the mook down the line? or just no aoo to the person you are charging
Sorry would probably help if I gave you the context.
This was a Medium sized Eidolon charging a giant snapping turtle which has a 15 foot reach.
So he would've moved out of two threatened squares before being able to resolve the attack portion of the charge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All movement through threatened squares ALWAYS provokes an AoO unless you have a special ability that EXPLICITLY says it does not.
Charge does not have any explicit text saying it prevents AoOs, therefore, it does not.
Kazumetsa, a readied action is NOT an AoO - you are simply changing when your turn in the initiative is taken, and for the rest of the fight, your initiative becomes the number on which you took your readied action.
To respond to the "Actions in Combat" table that says "No" regarding charges provoking an AoO, note that this table also says that Melee Attacks don't provoke and Spellcasting does. The table is not there to provide rules - if you want the rules for an action, you must read the entire description of the action. All this table does is give you a basic guideline with a one-word answer.
In the case of the Charge action, the one-word answer only relates to the target you are charging. In other words, if your fighter charges at a troll, but his path goes through a group of orcs, he does not provoke from the troll but he does provoke from the orcs if he moves through their threatened squares.
This is because the "No" in the chart is telling you "Charge does not provoke from the target of the charge, just like Attack does not provoke from the target of the attack, but in all other regards treat the movement portion of the charge by the standard rules for movement EXCEPT where the Charge rule overrides the standard rules of movement" - note that the Charge rule does not say, anywhere, that the charging character is exempt from provoking AoOs by passing through threatened squares.
Sorry would probably help if I gave you the context.
This was a Medium sized Eidolon charging a giant snapping turtle which has a 15 foot reach.
So he would've moved out of two threatened squares before being able to resolve the attack portion of the charge.
This is one case where the Charge rules can get a little confusing.
First, Charge tells us that we don't provoke from the target. Fine. But the rules for Movement tell us that if we leave a threatened square we do provoke. Fine. In this case, the threatened square(s) belong to the target, so the rule seems to be in conflict.
The resolution is to remember that Reach is a special case. The rules for Charge don't say anything about reach, therefore the "No" provoke AoO part only applies to non-reach situations, specifically, the last space we move into and from which we make our attack. The rules for Movement don't say anything about reach, they only say that moving out of a threatened space provokes an AoO. The rules about reach tell us that this enemy can threaten at least two spaces that the charging character is moving through.
None of these rules are in conflict (the only conflict is if we make the mental mistake of assuming that the Charge rules include all possible attack with and without reach, which they do not - if they did, then they would explicitly state that they did).
Therefore, Charge only limits AoO at the very end of the charge, Reach lets the enemy threaten extra squares that we must move through when we charge that enemy, and leaving those threatened squares provokes an AoO as normal.
Where does it say that?
In the case of the Charge action, the one-word answer only relates to the target you are charging. In other words, if your fighter charges at a troll, but his path goes through a group of orcs, he does not provoke from the troll but he does provoke from the orcs if he moves through their threatened squares.
That is exactly the scenario that came up in our game. One player said the target of the charge doesn't gain AoOs, but there is nothing that I can find that says that.
Also regarding:
All movement through threatened squares ALWAYS provokes an AoO unless you have a special ability that EXPLICITLY says it does not.
Reread my first post:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
The conflict is, the default isn't that movement always provokes. So I'd expect a Special Attack that baked in movement would explicitly state whether or not it provokes an AoO. The only rule or mention (depending on your perspective) of AoOs during Charge simply says no, Charge doesn't provoke AoOs. So the assumption has to be that all movement during Charge doesn't provoke.
The conflict is, the default isn't that movement always provokes. So I'd expect a Special Attack that baked in movement would explicitly state whether or not it provokes an AoO. The only rule or mention (depending on your perspective) of AoOs during Charge simply says no, Charge doesn't provoke AoOs. So the assumption has to be that all movement during Charge doesn't provoke.
Actually, Movement does ALWAYS provoke - unless you have some trick (feat, ability, spell, etc.) to override the rule.
Where it says "movement usually provokes", this is not free license for GMs or players to say "Well, it only USUALLY provokes, so I'm going to assume this is one time where it doesn't, yeah, just because I don't want to get hit this time, so yeah, that's it, this is one of the times where 'usually' doesn't apply."
No.
Movement provokes. Always. Period.
Unless you can point to a rule that you are able to use to allow you to move without provoking. For example, if have Cover while you're moving, you don't provoke.
So, your default assumption that "Usually" means you can ignore provoking AoOs whenever it's convenient is at fault. You have it backward. Movement always provokes and you should expect any Special Attack based on movement WILL provoke unless that Special Attack explicitly says it does not.
Given that, the assumption has to be that all movement during Charge DOES provoke.
Okay, so in that case of the player charging the troll in your example, he provokes an AoO from the troll as he closes? The troll has a 10 foot reach, so as the PC leaves the square 10 feet from the troll he provokes.
(edited to fix some typos)
Okay, so in that case of the player charging the troll in your example, he provokes an AoO from the troll as he closes? The troll has a 10 foot reach, so as the PC leaves the square 10 feet from the troll he provokes.
(edited to fix some typos)
Unless the charging character has a reach weapon, yes, the troll would get an AoO.
Everything DM Blake has been saying is 100% accurate. You always have to remember that specific trumps general.
In my experience it is common for people to get confused on AoO rules. We need like a training video or something. :P
Yes, charging the troll still provokes an AoO if the charging attacker leaves the the 10' space that the troll threatens. This assumes he actually leaves that space to move into an adjacent square, which he won't do if the charging attacker also has reach. I ignored all of that for simplicity. Maybe I should have used a hobgoblin instead of a troll and made it clear that the charger also doesn't have reach.
The Reach rules are not accounted for in the Charge rules - nothing in Charge changes how movement provokes, and nothing in Charge changes how reach works.
The table that says "No" about whether Charge Provokes is telling you exactly as much useful information as when it says "No" about whether attacking someone with a melee attack provokes - in both cases, once you have moved close enough that you are in melee range, you make a melee attack without provoking. All the stuff about how you move to get into melee range, either just moving, or charging, etc., is unchanged and must follow all the default rules, including the rule that moving out of a threatened space provokes AoOs.
And none of that says anything about Reach. All Reach does is let you threaten extra spaces that are farther away than you could normally threaten without Reach (and usually you also don't threaten spaces adjacent to you, if your reach is from a weapon instead of natural reach) - you still threaten some spaces, and the default rules for enemies moving out of those spaces and provoking AoOs still apply.
Thanks highbad! That helps a lot (that first italicized quote specifically). I was just about to post this one too:
Ride By Attack:
Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
That last sentence implies that movement normally provokes.
Funny thing is DeltaOneG, I literally had just sent that exact quote to my players not five minutes before posting that...
Guess I'll need to put that rule on a post-it.
The footnote to the Actions During Combat table says:
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
Charge says it's a full round action, and includes movement as part of that action, so the footnote implies that the movement shouldn't provoke.
Again, this is looking at it backward.
Read it this way:
(I have replaced the generic language with the same language but specific to the Charge action)
"Regardless of the fact that you are charging (action), if you move out of a threatened square, you always provoke an Attack of Opportunity unless you have a specific ability that prevents this, which Charge does not. This Column indicates whether the attack at the end of the Charge, not the movement portion of the charge, provokes an attack of opportunity."
Good discussion but as a DM I would rule that the charge action does NOT provoke from the target of the charge regardless of movement but would provoke from any other movement related action
That's pretty much false; if you want to slog through a colossal creature's 20ft reach, you'd better believe they get an AoO against you.
Also: this thread is just over 7 years old, so I doubt anyone in the original discussion will see this.
I agree that it would be a poor ruling, but it can't be false: he's talking about how he'd rule as a GM. As the GM, you can rule however you want.
I will just assume the overly technical nature of this post is deliberate and therfore an attempt at humor.
Also, it would appear that the edits of my original post did not go through: I wanted to ask, out of curiosity, why jerry pemberton would rule thusly. Because it's clear by the basic rules that it isn't intended to work that way, and I've never seen anyone take issue with it before.