So I have an idea for a character. Might either use him as a PC or vault him in my archive of recurring NPCs. The idea is somewhat that of a very smart duelist. Someone who sees combat as just another division of knowledge to pursue. He should also be more of a warrior than a caster.
So the following classes have been thought of.
Lore Warden. I'll be making use of the CMBs for this guy. Probably the main class.
Archivist. Way down in the list. This guy would pride in his information and wouldn't give it out so blatantly.
Cleric of Irori. The idea of hinting a bit of religion tickles me. A dip.
Tounged Oracle of Lore. Same religion thing, only now with amazing Revelations. Also a bit of flavor, like he speaks and thinks in Celestial during combat. Also a dip.
Strategist Standard Bearer. I don't see this guy as much of mounting guy, but as a student of war, he should know a few tactics
Alchemist. Cause he could be a doctor.
Kensai. Low on the list not because of mechanics, but because of flavor.
Also I thought of the Student of War, Duelist, and Pathfinder Delver prestige classes.
My current idea is a Human Lore Warden that 1 level dips into Tongued Oracle of Lore then prestiges into Student of War or Duelist. He uses a rapier and keeps an empty off hand.
Now with what I have told you, how do you think this character could be improved while keeping the flavor? Also which of the prestige classes is better? Could you give advice on feats and traits?
You can also do this with just a basic fighter. You can take Cosmopolitan for 2 knowledge skills. Take 2 trais for 2 more. That should give you most of the knowledge skills that deal with the bestiaries. If you are over 100 years old, you can take the feat that gives you +2 on all knowledge checks. Make sure your Intelligence is a 14 and you're doing well.
If I could get to my computer I could post a fighter build I worked on a while ago. He was effective in combat and was reliable with his skills.
Look into the Kirin style, you can fight with your off hand as a duelist. Also, if you can convert to piercing damage, then you can use your duelist class features.
Just a straight bard works to. Maybe even Archaeologist. I do not recall if they have bardic knowledge, but I think so.
Hmm... Cosmopolitan could work. It seems like something I'd take if there was nothing else.
The Kirin Style looks great. It makes me rethink if I should dip in MoMS Kirin Snake. It would also add to the unarmed damage of my offhand.
I was thinking of Bard, however I'd think of this guy as a more solitary person.
It is on the list, but thanks for the heads up. I was actually thinking of getting it for the extra AC, and the crit stuff, but when I realized, the Will was still horible for a 'defensive' class, I got turned off.
How's Student of War though? that any good?
Correction, no TWF with precise strike unless you really munchkin your GM. It says that you cannot attack with a weapon in your off hand, so it would be hard to argue that that hand is also a piercing weapon that you attack with.
Upon looking it up, I second the Lore Warden recomendation. If you can, you may consider dipping MoMS and getting the Kirin Chain.
An option, as a fighter would be to TWF with a two handed weapon and unarmed strike, as you have the bonus feats to pull it off and the monk dip lets you kick for US.
Alternatively, use a polearm + manuevers, and Kick when they get in reach.
So this is what I came up with. I didn't think of the polearm, but I did do Lore Warden/MoMS.
Human Lore Warden/Master of Many Styles
Starting Abilities: Str10/Dex15/Con12/Int18/Wis14/Cha7
Skills: Acrobatics, Sense Motive, Perception, Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, Religion
CL1- LW1: Weapon Finesse, Iron Will, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL2- MoMS1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Kirin Style, Stunning Fist
CL3- MoMS2: Kirin Strike, Snake Style
CL4- LW2: Piranha Strike, Dervish Dance, Combat Expertise
CL5- LW3: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
CL6- LW4: Snake Sidewind
CL7- LW5: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL8- LW6: Improved Iron Will
CL9- LW7: Improved Critical
CL10- LW8: Critical Focus
CL11-LW9: Snake Fang
CL12- LW10: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
CL13- LW11: Greater Weapon Focus
CL14- LW12: Staggering Critical
CL15- LW13: Tiring Critical
CL16- LW14: Exhausting Critical
CL17- LW15: Critical Mastery
CL18- LW16: Stunning Critical
CL19- LW17: ? Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
CL20- LW18: ? Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
I chose scimitar cause I thought it would be cool to make him an agile critter.
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Given the way it is written, the general concensus seems to be that Piranha Strike won't work with a scimitar, since you aren't actually using Weapon Finesse with the scimitar, but getting the bonus from Dervish Dance, instead.
Also remember that you need at least two ranks of Perform (Dance) to get Dervish Dance, IIRC.
Also, since you aren't taking any of the combat maneuver feats, attempting to trip or disarm will still provoke AoOs.
Gotta admit, I have a Lore Warden I am playing who is going high Strength, middling Dex, and taking the Whip Mastery chain of feats.
Current:
Human: Combat Reflexes
L1 Feat: EWP: Whip
FB1: Weapon Focus: Whip
FB2: Whip Mastery
LW: Combat Expertise
L3: Power Attack (current level)
FB4: Weapon Specialization: Whip
L5: Improved Whip Mastery (starts 2-handing his whip, instead of fighting while holding the whip and a dagger to take AoOs)
To be honest, I have not planned on what to do after 5th level, which could include taking a level of Gunslinger at 5th instead of LW, he still gets the BAB increase so he can take IWM, but using the pistol for starting attack, then dropping it to 2-hand the whip for the rest of the encounter seems like an interesting idea. It also turns Acrobatics into a class skill, which will help when he gets the 11th level LW ability Hair's Breadth, even though it will delay it by a level.
Alright. Didn't know about the Piranha Strike+Scimitar thing. I'll rethink the build.
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Calagnar came up with a great knowledgable fighter build earlier. Here
I'll copy it here though.
15 PB
Fighter (Lore Warden)
Str 15(17)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 7
1: Power Attack, Exotic Weapon proficence: Fauchard, Weapon Focus: Fauchard.
2: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Weapon Specialization: Fauchard
5: Furouse Focus
6: Greater Trip
7: Felling Smash
8: Improved Critical: Fauchard
9: Greater Weapon Focus: Fauchard
10: Tripping Strike
Make it 20 PB with Wis 12 and Int 14, and you have 7 Skill ranks to play with.
Knowledge Arcana
Knowledge Nature
Knowledge Planes
Knowledge Religion
Knowledge Local
Acrobatics
Perception
All main knowledges + the two good warrior skills.
Lore Warden mechanics of studying his enemies in battle for an advantage fits the concept too.
If you are going to 20 it might be worth it to stay pure classed to keep the capstone and maximise Fighter/ Lore Warden goodies.
I don't know if I'm going pure 20. This guy is just saved in my character bank as Squawk (Tengu BardBarian) is.
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Ok. New build. Used STR Ranger's sample build and converted the monk into Sohei of Many Styles. He's going to single wield a jutte.
Human Lore Warden/Sohei of Many Styles
Starting Stats: Str16/Dex16/Con11/Int16/Wis8/Cha7
Skills: Acrobatics 16, Sense Motive 20, Perception 20, Arcana 20, Dungeoneering 16, Nature 16, Planes 16, Religion 16
CL1- LW1: Weapon Fcs (Jutte), Quick Draw, Iron Will
CL2- SoMS1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Kirin Style
CL3- SoMS1: Kirin Path, Snake Style
CL4- LW2: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
CL5- LW3: Power Attack
CL6- LW4: Weapon Spec (Jutte), Retrain Quick Draw for TWF
CL7- LW5: ITWF
CL8- LW6: Snake Sidewind
CL9- LW7: Combat Reflexes
CL10- LW8: Snake Fang
CL11- LW9: Gtr Wpn Fcs (Jutte)
CL12- LW10: Kirin Path
CL13- LW11: Two-Weapon Rend
CL14- LW12: Break Guard
CL15: LW13- Pin Down
CL16: LW14: Penetrating Strike
CL17- LW15: Gtr Wpn Spec (Jutte)
CL18- LW16: Gtr Penetrating Strike
CL19- LW17: GTWF
CL 20- LW18: Stunning Assault
The new Super genius Investigator class from their anachronistic adventures line has a whole host of stuff that is great for the knowledgable combatant. And depending on how much fighter and how much knowledge you can mix the enforcer (previous product in the line) in to get the flavor you want.
There are all sorts of talents around using intelligence in combat, and using knowledge to find weak spots and provide bonuses against enemies. It is also extremely flexible because of the way the class is set up to use archetypes.
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I found it interesting that the Tactician fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat was not mentioned. While Lore Warden does fit the Knowledgeable Warrior mold very well, and provides Knowledges as class skills, the Tactician also gains 4 skill points a level. He also adds Diplomacy and another skill to the mix as well.
I like this fighter class, because it sort of uses a little of the Cavalier support in there.
Just thought I would put it out there.
@Kolokotroni: I'm very VERY skeptic about 3PP, also I wanted something that I could use with most any GM
@Aeshuura: I chose Lore Warden rather than Tactician because The idea behind this guy was to know the enemy. Lore Wardens also gain all Int-based skills as class skills, and I didn't want Diplomacy, because that would make him perfectly UAD (Universally Atribute Dependent). I even had to give up a lot of Wis for this build, making him quite vulnerable to mind-affecting spells. I'll have to make that up with magic items. But yes. I love the tactician as well, as teamwork feats are quite amazing.
On another note, what classes other than Bard and Pathfinder Delver get bardic knowledge?
Loremaster.
I will note that not only does Mark Moreland write forewords for Super Genius Games saying how great they are, but Sean K. Reynolds does as well.
@Kolokotroni: I'm very VERY skeptic about 3PP, also I wanted something that I could use with most any GM
Well more and more gms in my experience are using 3rd party material and those who do not are missing out on a lot of great content. I bet if you post your skepticism on the investigator's product page here on the paizo website, Super Genius staff will likely send you the product for free (they have done so many times in the past as they like to encourage people to look at and use their products).
@Cheapy: I don't see how though. The class looks very scattered.
Any archetypes of base and core classes you might know?
@Kolokotroni: My main thing about 3PP is that it's a dice roll. It either is a gem, or it sucks. And tabletop games such as Pathfinder take quite some time to play test. A decision in character creation can affect you for a really long time.
@Cheapy: I don't see how though. The class looks very scattered.
Any archetypes of base and core classes you might know?
I do not have experience with the Investigator. I haven't looked through it. SKR wrote that about their book called the Adventurer's Handbook that detailed a lot of their character options, and Mark Moreland wrote it about a compilation of items they made. The author has also written for 9 of the Paizo books, including Ultimate Magic. Paizo trusts him.
@Kolokotroni: My main thing about 3PP is that it's a dice roll.
Same for anything else in PF.
Anyways, I like the idea of the Mindchemist Alchemist too. And you have bombs as back up!
Calagnar came up with a great knowledgable fighter build earlier. Here
I'll copy it here though.
15 PB
Fighter (Lore Warden)
Str 15(17)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 71: Power Attack, Exotic Weapon proficence: Fauchard, Weapon Focus: Fauchard.
2: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Weapon Specialization: Fauchard
5: Furouse Focus
6: Greater Trip
7: Felling Smash
8: Improved Critical: Fauchard
9: Greater Weapon Focus: Fauchard
10: Tripping StrikeMake it 20 PB with Wis 12 and Int 14, and you have 7 Skill ranks to play with.
Knowledge Arcana
Knowledge Nature
Knowledge Planes
Knowledge Religion
Knowledge Local
Acrobatics
PerceptionAll main knowledges + the two good warrior skills.
Lore Warden mechanics of studying his enemies in battle for an advantage fits the concept too.
If you are going to 20 it might be worth it to stay pure classed to keep the capstone and maximise Fighter/ Lore Warden goodies.
Combat expertise requires Int 13, so you'd have to lower Wis, unfortunately. :-(
he gets combat expertise as a bonus feat with no restriction
@Kolokotroni: My main thing about 3PP is that it's a dice roll. It either is a gem, or it sucks. And tabletop games such as Pathfinder take quite some time to play test. A decision in character creation can affect you for a really long time.
You will find that that is far less of the case now adays. Many 3pps have done at least free lance work for paizo. And they all do fairly significant playtesting of their material. It is like clockwork that when I have a question for Owen Stephens (lead developer of Super Genius Games) about one of his products he has an example from his playtests to help answer it.
Well, maybe I'll try checking them out sometime.
he gets combat expertise as a bonus feat with no restriction
Ooh, nice. My mistake.
Lore warden gets +2 skill points for Int based skills, so even w/ tacticion
he gets combat expertise as a bonus feat with no restriction
Yes, but as pointed out in the other thread, Improved Trip still requires Int 13. So you have to drop something else by a point to get that last point of Intelligence.
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So I have an idea for a character. Might either use him as a PC or vault him in my archive of recurring NPCs. The idea is somewhat that of a very smart duelist. Someone who sees combat as just another division of knowledge to pursue. He should also be more of a warrior than a caster.
What level do you need him at?
2nd: Figh1[Unarmed]/Monk1 -- you can flurry with two-dozen weapons.
6th: Monk[Sohei]6 -- Flurry with an entire Weapon Training group (and own Gloves of Dueling). Any animal/monster you borrow to ride almost instantly likes you better than it does its master.
11th: Figh5[Unarmed]/Monk[Sohei]6 -- You can Flurry in, and have Weapon Training in, all of: Monk+Exotic weapon group, natural weapon group, and a third group on the Sohei list (recommend bows or polearms).
@ Mike Schneider: any level. he's still a concept that may be used at anytime. Interesting take on what I said. However, what I meant to say was a fighter that relied on his int and wasn't so much of a one trick pony.
I know this is obnoxious to ask this late in the discussion, but what book is the Lore Warden in? You list that and a few other things I've never heard of (Student of War, Delver?). I always find it helpful if people post their sources for splat material, even if they think it's commonly used.
I'm very interested in this kind of concept, and hence would love to actually know what y'all are talking about. :)
@DeathQuaker: Lore Warden is from Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Student of War and Pathfinder Delver are both from Seekers of Secrets.
@Mike: Yeah. that's more of what I'm talking about.
DQ: Pathfinder Society Field Guide. You can also find it on d20pfsrd.com
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Ok. New build. Used STR Ranger's sample build and converted the monk into Sohei of Many Styles. He's going to single wield a jutte.
** spoiler omitted **
A minor point, but you have Kirin Path listed as a feat at both level 3 and 12, so you are shortchanging yourself a feat. Is there any reason you need Quickdraw at level 1? If not switching it's place with Power attack might make those first few levels alot easier.
For the Kirin Path, I know it looks ugly, but I'd rather separate it to have two feats at level 3 than to have them all at level 8. For Quickdraw, I was thinking of starting out with throwing chakram for more survival.
lol. Flurry at Full-Plate?
Lore warden gets +2 skill points for Int based skills, so even w/ tacticion
That's a great idea. Wouldn't choosing both archetypes be even better than either alone?
i can't post a full build because 1) you didn't give a point buy or specify optional rules, like traits- and, 2) i'm at work and don't have nearly enough time. but...
either- sensei 4/guide 3/duelist x or sensei 8/duelist x
i'd take a base human with FCB in skills (giving 6+Int in almost all cases) and pump his Int and Wis as high as possible. you will be a bit feat starved since you'll need the prereqs for duelist plus at least the first feat from snake style to use your hand instead of a blade (and the whole tree is worth taking for this build). this may not be optimized, but i think it'd be pretty fun.
alternatively, if your GM will allow the "guided" weapon property, you could go master of many styles 4/tactician 3/duelist x
this would allow you to benefit from both the snake tree and the kirin tree. you'd need to get knowledge [arcana and planes] through traits but a guided amulet of mighty fist is superior to the sensei's insightful strike ability. the rest of the idea stays the same. this version is even more functional, but it depends on your GM letting you get that amulet.
hope that's helpful :)
Since the Tactician gets 4 skill points per level and the Lore Master gets "an additional 2", does that mean that if you use both archetypes you get 6 skill points per level?
The additional 2 from Lore Master have to go to knowledge skills IIRC,but yeah you would get 6, but only 4 of them are 100% freely usable.