Huge fan of Aroden. He's probably my favorite of all the deities in Golarion, which is why I'll be playing an Inquisitor of Aroden in our upcoming Crimson Throne campaign . . .
Of the other deities, I enjoy Rovagug, Zon-Kuthon, Urgathoa, Pharasma, and Erastil.
I'm big into the evil deities primarily because I'm the main GM for our group, though the amount of adventure potential existent in Pharasma makes her one of my top deities in the setting.
Desna hands down isn't even close. Second is Sarenrae, because I love the backstory I can create with my Taldane cleric.
Huge fan of Aroden. He's probably my favorite of all the deities in Golarion, which is why I'll be playing an Inquisitor of Aroden in our upcoming Crimson Throne campaign . . .
Did Aroden survive in your rendition of the setting or are you setting the game predeath?
I've always been a big fan of Desna. When I read her entry in Gods and Magic, it just seemed like the only person who cared about Desna was Sarenrae as she tended to Desna's wounds. Desna seemed to be in constant conflict with a lot of the evil gods. Rovagug is the enemy of just about everything, Zon-Kuthon fights her constantly for control of the night, she despises Lammashtu for killing her mentor, hunts for Ghlaunder, quarraels with Asmodeus for enslaving people... It just seems for a peaceful, fun loving goddess, she has more enemies than those that are often portrayed as the shining beacons of purtiy, such as Sarenrae.
I like Pharasma, I like her neutrality and her attitude to undead. In FR I was always a little tired of how things that are a natural part of existence, like death, was evil. I've also been working on a homebrew campaign in which Charon works together with Urgathoa to overthrow Pharasma and Charon turning on Urgathoa once he gains total control over death, instead of jus the partial he has now. I always planned to have Pharasma, now vastly reduced to a in power, to that of a minor Goddess of birth, joined the party assaulting Charon in his fortress in Abaddon.
Iomedae is also a favorite. She has always struck me as the absolute personification of duty and determination. Bad stuff just keeps happening to her, but nothing ever gets her down. Tar-Baphon returns as the Whispering Tyrant, so she takes up sword and leads the charge to put him down; The Herald of her God dies, so she takes her place; Her God dies, so she inherits his followers. No matter what you throw at her, Iomedae will weather any and all challengs and keep pushing forward. You just can't stop her.
Gozreh and Torag would have to come next for favorites. I'm currently running a wizard in Kingmaker who I tried to, somewhat, model after Leonardo da'vinci. He enjoys the peaceful beauty of nature, and how, despite all the talk of the circle of life, all the rules of nature come down to just one undeniable fact. The only thing in nature that can be counted on, is everything keeps changing. He finds it fascinating how he memorizes gestures and incantations that are the same each time he uses them, but each time has a different result. He believes that, in a lot of ways, Magic is an absolute reflection of Nature. At the same time, he loves to design new things and is heavy into architecture and engineering. He's got all kinds of designs for new buildings, new weapons, plans for things to make simple everyday life. All he needs is time, and as one of elven descent, that's something he's got quite a bit of.
Shocker that it may be, I guess I'm one of the few people that doesn't like Cayden. Despite the fact Cayden has arguably the best background, I'm not a real big fan of him. I don't like characters that just flounce around disregarding any and all responsibility for their actions and Cayden Cailean strikes me as one of those guys that would start a fight in a bar for no other purpose other than, "Because it was fun!" While Desna is also CG like Cadyden, her actions show her as being a lot more responsible than Cayden is, and it's why she's my favorite of the Golarion Pantheon.
Huge fan of Aroden. He's probably my favorite of all the deities in Golarion, which is why I'll be playing an Inquisitor of Aroden in our upcoming Crimson Throne campaign . . .Did Aroden survive in your rendition of the setting or are you setting the game predeath?
Well, that's kind of half the fun of what we're doing with the character idea. His beliefs are very much that Aroden is very much alive and that humanity became so warped from the god's vision that they've lost touch with him.
Is Aroden actually still alive? I have no idea . . . only the GM of that game actually knows what's going on to enable the character to have divine magic. I'm just as interested to know what her thoughts are as I am to be playing the character.
Our rendition is in the present time period, however. =)
Well, that's kind of half the fun of what we're doing with the character idea. His beliefs are very much that Aroden is very much alive and that humanity became so warped from the god's vision that they've lost touch with him.Is Aroden actually still alive? I have no idea . . . only the GM of that game actually knows what's going on to enable the character to have divine magic. I'm just as interested to know what her thoughts are as I am to be playing the character.
Our rendition is in the present time period, however. =)
Since Inquisitors require a god who grants him his magic?
Since Inquisitors require a god who grants him his magic?Well, that's kind of half the fun of what we're doing with the character idea. His beliefs are very much that Aroden is very much alive and that humanity became so warped from the god's vision that they've lost touch with him.
Is Aroden actually still alive? I have no idea . . . only the GM of that game actually knows what's going on to enable the character to have divine magic. I'm just as interested to know what her thoughts are as I am to be playing the character.
Our rendition is in the present time period, however. =)
According to core rules, I don't believe so. However, that's never been our way of doing things. Divine power in our game world comes from a god or Mother Earth (in the case of druids and some rangers). Thus, clerics, paladins, oracles, inquisitors and the like have some god backing them up (though in the case of oracles, it could easily be more than one god).
Sometimes, however, the one you think might be backing you isn't necessarily the one doing so. Such is the great game of godhood being played out in the heavens.
Sarenrae
Pharasma
Groetus
Urgathoa
And a self-indulgent vote for the Speakers of the Depths. I'd love to do more with them one day. :)
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Hard to really narrow it down, honestly.
Sarenrae is probably tops, because she feels like what I really want out of a Big Good good-aligned deity, especially with the focus on redemption. I just wish there was more to show on that last bit. You'd think that as long as she's been around at least a few monstrous tribes she's won over would get some mention here and there.
Zon-Kuthon is high up there as well, for everything he brings to the table but especially when combined with Shelyn. A lot to mine there.
Personal canon:
Desna is extremely appealing too, particularly given her alien nature and all the doors that opens up.
Cayden. His origin alone would seal the deal, but he's honestly a really great god of adventurers. The notion that he's "one of us" in the eyes of many adventurers just makes him really personable.
Tsukiyo, both for being a sort of Asian Osiris analogue and finally presenting a good god of darkness to the setting. Just need to know more about him now...
For gods that we don't really know a lot about: Brigh. ROBOT GODDESS. Come on, that's awesome waiting to be explored right there.
For gods that are in some sort of limbo at the moment that we don't really know a lot about: Lissala. From the unconventional appearance(LE deity with the body of a lillend and a rune for a head?) to the lawful taskmastery feel, just want to know more about her.
For gods that are probably definitely dead that we don't really know a lot about: Ihys. Chaotic good god of creation and free will, Asmodeus' brother and opposite, and possibly the original source of hope in the Golarionverse.
For gods that we don't really know a lot about: Brigh. ROBOT GODDESS. Come on, that's awesome waiting to be explored right there.
Eh? Robot goddess? When, where, and why? Or is that your interpretation?
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Eh? Robot goddess? When, where, and why? Or is that your interpretation?
For gods that we don't really know a lot about: Brigh. ROBOT GODDESS. Come on, that's awesome waiting to be explored right there.
Some of the lesser gods are just crazy fun sounding.
Alseta, Brigh and Sivanah are all way cool sounding, as are all three of the elven lesser gods, Findeladlara, Ketephys and Yuelral.
Yuelral, in particular, I like, since she's pretty much the patron god of ioun stones. :)
The lesser Osirioni gods, Wadjet, Apep and Khepri, are also fascinating. Sometimes the gods that little is written about are more fun from an RP perspective, as you can paint outside the lines with your cleric of such a god, without being contradicted by canon or someone wagging their finger and claiming that you're doing it wrong because book X says that deity Y hates the color red, or considers cats unlucky, or some gobbledigook like that.
Cayden, Saranrae and Pharasma. Somehow I never really got what's so interesting about Desna. Besides the Liberation domain, that is. Which totally should have been in Caydens list of domains, I mean he is the god of freedom, hello?!? :p
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Findeladlara?!
D:<
Have to admit I don't feel the rage for her as much these days. Especially after some other folks offered the characterization of her being some combination of "Grandma racist" and tsundere for non-elven races.
That...may not be the actual intended characterization.
Cayden, Saranrae and Pharasma. Somehow I never really got what's so interesting about Desna. Besides the Liberation domain, that is. Which totally should have been in Caydens list of domains, I mean he is the god of freedom, hello?!? :p
I'd be happy with Cayden taking Liberation and Desna picking up Darkness honestly. Though they're both pretty heavy on the freedom, admittedly.
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Findeladlara?!
D:<
Heh. I'm okay with race gods preferring their own specific races.
Ideally, I loathe the idea of different gods for different races anyway, but, since they're an assumption of the setting, I'm fine with Findy being a snooty old elitist who is explicitly the goddess of elven craft and tradition, and therefore has nothing to even talk about with a dwarf or human attempting to curry her favor.
Findy being a smidge racist and Erastil a bit sexist make them a little more interesting, and, IMO, open up a little bit of flexibility in the alignment straightjacket. Someday, perhaps, we'll see an evil god, like Urgathoa or Norgorber, shown to have a trait that we typically associate with a good alignment, to balance that sort of thing out. Norgorber, for instance, could be portrayed as having an irrational (and spectacularly violent...) dislike of those who hurt children, and particularly orphans and 'street rats,' perhaps giving a hint as to his own mortal life, which could create the same sort of cognitive / values dissonance as LG and NG gods with elven supremacist or sexist traits.
I'd be happy with Cayden taking Liberation and Desna picking up Darkness honestly. Though they're both pretty heavy on the freedom, admittedly.
Maybe your personal freedom to follow your dreams. But liberation, as in the pro-active liberation of opressed people, seems not to be as major a theme for her as for Cayden. Outside of Nidal, that is, where she has a personal stake in the matter.
YMMV, of course. :)
Erastil. Too often you see Lawful as "god of big cities", and having him be "god of the small villages" instead is... pleasant. Lawful Cranky in alignment, that works too.
Pharasma. Death and birth. I can _so_ work with this.
Iomedae. Heroism, very right and proper, and all _good_. I got way tired of "good" deities who didn't really qualify for the label. And she's a paladin besides... what's not to like?
Abadar. Someone who understands what _civilization_ is all about.
I do tend to end up more in the LG corner of the spectrum... but there are some really good ideas floating around here.
Sarenrae has become my go to deity for Paladins. My paladins of her ride around in lighter armor (like leather or such) because riding around in plate is uncomfortable and makes mounting and dismounting to do non combat related things difficult. They go around, trying to solve people's problems peacefully, only degenerating to violence when it becomes unavoidable. When common folk encounter violent problems, THEN the big armor goes on as the Paladin rides out to meet the danger.
I like her for Paladins because she teaches to extend a peaceful hand first, and to only bring the stick and boot when it is absolutely necessary. It makes it alot easier to tolerate shady party members, as you can reasonably said to be trying to redeem them, provided they don't do anything too overtly unwholesome (baby eating, etc...)
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Anyone else disappointed by the PF pantheon? I miss the days when D&D pantheon was based on real life or literary mythology...
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Anyone else disappointed by the PF pantheon? I miss the days when D&D pantheon was based on real life or literary mythology...
I wouldnt say disappointed, but I would like several pantheons. Maybe an Ulfen one, a Taldan one with some overlap etc ect
Anyone else disappointed by the PF pantheon? I miss the days when D&D pantheon was based on real life or literary mythology...I wouldnt say disappointed, but I would like several pantheons. Maybe an Ulfen one, a Taldan one with some overlap etc ect
And have Golarion fall into the same trap as Forgotten Realms? Which it is already close to as it is.
And have Golarion fall into the same trap as Forgotten Realms? Which it is already close to as it is.Anyone else disappointed by the PF pantheon? I miss the days when D&D pantheon was based on real life or literary mythology...I wouldnt say disappointed, but I would like several pantheons. Maybe an Ulfen one, a Taldan one with some overlap etc ect
I don't see Forgotten Realms as a trap, I think it adds to the flavor.
I added an Ulfen Pantheon (the Norse gods, some of whom were already worshipped under their Golarion names in Avistan), I added Mielikki because Gozreh is too broad. The romans and greeks had gods for mortar and bricks so I like Lots of minor gods. I also gave Osirion the Egyptian Pantheon.
Mielikki I include in the Ulfen Pantheon because well she is Finnish.
I brought in the Non human pantheons as well, I like my elves with Corellon and my dwarves with Moradin (which is the dwarven name for Torag).
My favorite god of course:
Cross the rainbow bridge of Asgard,
Where the mighty Heavens roar,
You'll behold the god of Thunder,
The God of Thunder; Mighty Thor!
But If I had to pick a Golarion god, I love Desna with Abadar second.
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Maybe I'm just old school, but using real or literary deities seems more flavorful to me somehow...I also liked that I learned about mythology while playing a game I love. AD&D gave me some basic knowledge about Norse, Greek, American Indian, Babylonian, Indian, and Egyptian mythos. To this day, I can sometime recognize the mythical references of certain historical or religious artifacts because of AD&D.
IMO, the Golarion dieties are just fluff, particularly for casual gaming groups who aren't going to read a bunch of side texts about made-up dieties. My current group couldn't care less about Golarion dieties (they say stuff like "Sarenrae or whatever her name is"), and I don't blame them.
I'd also add that, IMO, the game is more relatable/enjoyable when you add elements of realism that don't interfere with the playability of the game.
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Maybe I'm just old school, but using real or literary deities seems more flavorful to me somehow...I also liked that I learned about mythology while playing a game I love. AD&D gave me some basic knowledge about Norse, Greek, American Indian, Babylonian, Indian, and Egyptian mythos. To this day, I can sometime recognize the mythical references of certain historical or religious artifacts because of AD&D.
I get what you mean, but at the same time... D&D/AD&D got the names right (more or less) but screwed up a lot of things and just plain got a lot of the information and mythology wrong, especially when dealing with Gods, Goddesses, and religious belief other than the Greco-Roman mythology (even that included mistakes).
Now put it this way... imagine the outrage if, for your campaign's faiths, you took the Torah (aka 'Old Testament'), mixed it up in a figurative blender, chopped up the resulting mix and tossed in a salad with some holy water (all figuratively speaking of course)-- and unleashed a vaguely Old Testament/Judaic "fire and brimstone" faith with a Father God and a long line of cranky prophets-- perhaps mixed in with some ideas of Satan (bent by Zoroastrian duality) and maybe the minor Gods of peoples opposed to the Jews take on a little bit more reality as opposing pantheons in your game. Now add in a radical sect that follows a particular savior/prophet, which is spreading and altering the teachings of the original faith, but claims to believe in the same God (call him 'Yeshua'-- the new prophet, I mean); and maybe toss in one more sect led by a radical desert prophet who talks to the Father God's servants ('Seraphim') and talks about Djinni and Efreeti, and wants to conquer all under his theocratic state-- who first holds out the hand of friendship to the other followers of Father God, and then holds out the sword when they won't accept his version of the 'message'.... and of course, then we can borrow elements from the struggle between Catholics and Protestants; Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews; and Shi'as and Sunnis in the Islamic world... the fights between sacred and secular power that occurred in the Middle Ages...
Now consider the outrage of Jews, Christians and Muslims who are offended at your cavalier treatment of their faith and beliefs in creating the mythology for your game world-- consider how annoyed they are going to be at your use, abuse, and misuse of their myths and beliefs, and at how many things drawn from their faith that you changed or didn't even know you got wrong. Consider the even worse arguments about faith and belief in your game world-- which prophet or version of the faith is the true one; why do these false gods actually do anything, etc? Pretty sure I could come up with lots more reasons why people might be upset about all this-- especially if in real-life they actually belong to one of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths.
Now-- remember that all of these real-world pantheons you advocate borrowing, butchering, and reworking to suit your own preferences-- once were the real-world faiths and beliefs of many people, and a surprisingly large number of these belief systems still have adherents to those faiths now. I do not consider it okay to steal and borrow from other people's faiths in a less than respectful fashion, simply because they're a minority that doesn't follow the same faith as the majority groups in our society.
Not meaning any offense to anyone, but this issue-- that these faiths are real to some people and were real to many-- is a little bit of fact and history that most gamers seem to utterly ignore, when they take pieces from them and throw them into their games any which way. Just a little something for y'all to think about.
Now put it this way... imagine the outrage if, for your campaign's faiths, you took the Torah (aka 'Old Testament'), mixed it up in a figurative blender, chopped up the resulting mix and tossed in a salad with some holy water (all figuratively speaking of course)-- and unleashed a vaguely Old Testament/Judaic "fire and brimstone" faith with a Father God and a long line of cranky prophets-- perhaps mixed in with some ideas of Satan (bent by Zoroastrian duality) and maybe the minor Gods of peoples opposed to the Jews take on a little bit more reality as opposing pantheons in your game. Now add in a radical sect that follows a particular savior/prophet, which is spreading and altering the teachings of the original faith, but claims to believe in the same God (call him 'Yeshua'-- the new prophet, I mean); and maybe toss in one more sect led by a radical desert prophet who talks to the Father God's servants ('Seraphim') and talks about Djinni and Efreeti, and wants to conquer all under his theocratic state-- who first holds out the hand of friendship to the other followers of Father God, and then holds out the sword when they won't accept his version of the 'message'.... and of course, then we can borrow elements from the struggle between Catholics and Protestants;...
We already have Asmodeus. That was a Jewish Demon. I lived in the 80's where mothers were against D&D for the supposed Devils and Demons in it.
If someone is offended at the gods from mythology being represented slightly off, that is nothing compared to the publicity battle that D&D went though in the 80's.
I will take the real world gods. Something will always offend someone, and after D&D survived the Mothers going after them in the 80's they could easily survive it now. People should understand it is a game and not a literal interpretation.
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Pharasma: Probably because I picture her as an expy for Neil Gaiman's Death. Yes, I know there is nothing Paizo has put out to help me make that connection. But when I think about it, it makes sense. This seems to imply she's much powerful than a lot of the other gods.
Lamashtu: Love the warped earth mother vibe she gives off.
Milani: My favorite good goddess, perhaps because she seems to personify what RW good in the face of tyranny, speaking truth, which are very hard things. When I play a cleric of Milani, I guess I believe, and hence play it appropriately.
Gozreh for the whole duality thing.
Erastil for the whole 'rural' take on Lawful Good. He is sexist, old fashioned, but his heart is in the right place; just like many rural people.
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We already have Asmodeus. That was a Jewish Demon. I lived in the 80's where mothers were against D&D for the supposed Devils and Demons in it.If someone is offended at the gods from mythology being represented slightly off, that is nothing compared to the publicity battle that D&D went though in the 80's.
I will take the real world gods. Something will always offend someone, and after D&D survived the Mothers going after them in the 80's they could easily survive it now. People should understand it is a game and not a literal interpretation.
Carl--
I was around in the '80s when those PR battles went down. If that is your feeling though-- When/if a game comes out that does use Christian/Muslim theology in the thoroughly-altered and not exactly the same thing way I described above-- if you say it's okay to use the Pagan gods that way, and then object to borrowing and bending Judeo-Christian-Islamic gods that same way-- I am going to call you on that blatant double-standard (I'll call anyone else on it, who does the same sort of thing). So long as you don't hold that double-standard (Okay to take some people's beliefs, but not okay to make similar use of other people's beliefs)-- at least you're consistent (if not necessarily respectful or disrespectful of the source material)and I can respect that.What I particularly object to (and the point I was really after in the earlier post, although I guess I didn't quite hit the target as intended), is the all-too-common feeling that "it's okay to do whatever you want with all of these mythologies, but don't you dare take anything from my actual religion" that I have run into many times over from Christians, and Muslims, and Jews. Those who do that, IMO really need to rethink their position. For my part, I will NOT tolerate someone who shows such intolerance towards others on racial, religious, sexual, etc., grounds.
Carl--
I was around in the '80s when those PR battles went down. If that is your feeling though-- When/if a game comes out that does use Christian/Muslim theology in the thoroughly-altered and not exactly the same thing way I described above-- if you say it's okay to use the Pagan gods that way, and then object to borrowing and bending Judeo-Christian-Islamic gods that same way-- I am going to call you on that blatant double-standard (I'll call anyone else on it, who does the same sort of thing). So long as you don't hold that double-standard (Okay to take some people's beliefs, but not okay to make similar use of other people's beliefs)-- at least you're consistent (if not necessarily respectful or disrespectful of the source material)and I can respect that.What I particularly object to (and the point I was really after in the earlier post, although I guess I didn't quite hit the target as intended), is the all-too-common feeling that "it's okay to do whatever you want with all of these mythologies, but don't you dare take anything from my actual religion" that I have run into many times over from Christians, and Muslims, and Jews. Those who do that, IMO really need to rethink their position. For my part, I will NOT tolerate someone who shows such intolerance towards others on racial, religious, sexual, etc., grounds.
I promise you no double standard here.
I am being completely honest here. I would not care one whit if the game decided to distort real world religions. I am not saying that to be a jerk, and I am not an atheist, but religion of all kinds have a very low importance in my life. I am also a religiously literate person but I find religion more akin to philosophy than faith. I tolerate all religions, but I do not crusade on any of their behalf.
My wife is pagan, and I go to her ceremonies because they are Asatru, and I think they are cool and I get to drink mead. I don't feel any sort of spiritual identity at a blo(a)t I just go. I also re-enact vikings in the SCA so it is just fun. It annoys me they don't dress like viking though. Occasionally I will go to church on Christmas Eve or Easter and relax, but I don't really feel any more devotion if I go to church. I am more than likely to get any feelings of devotion or Faith while hiking or scuba diving.
I wonder what about the original Deities and Demigods was really OFFENSIVE however. They were really raw statistics with a blurb trying to interpret mythology. PErhaps since I am not religious I don't get the offense, which is very possible because there are things that my Mom gets offended at that I don't blink an eye towards.
When I was an undergrad I used to challenge the Christian group on campus as follows: "How can you call the gods of the Ancient Greeks mythical when the people at that time were just as devoted to their deities THEN as we are to our deity NOW." They usually gave me drivel about knowing through faith, or claiming that worship in that time did not show devotion as now (yeah right). They never thought they were stumped because of the faith copout, but really they could never provide a satisfactory answer.
So I come from a stance that it is not a big deal, but I also realize I am not sensitive to religious needs.
But look at the Golarion Gods. We have Asmodeus, and we have Irori. OK Irori is not CALLED Buddha but I could see how it might offend some of that religion (actually are they ever offended?) to have a mock portrayal of Buddhism.
I would not ever purposely offend someone's religion, but I don't find converting ANY deity into raw statistics an offensive action.
Desna, Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean, Green Faith
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...the all-too-common feeling that "it's okay to do whatever you want with all of these mythologies, but don't you dare take anything from my actual religion" that I have run into many times over from Christians, and Muslims, and Jews.
I wonder what about the original Deities and Demigods was really OFFENSIVE however. They were really raw statistics with a blurb trying to interpret mythology. PErhaps since I am not religious I don't get the offense, which is very possible because there are things that my Mom gets offended at that I don't blink an eye towards.
Carl--
Thank you for the well-reasoned response (all of it-- I cut some in this response only for space, since the posts will be close together).I think for me, it's not that the original (or subsequent) Deities and Demigods (itself) was so offensive (or, for that matter, that the original D&D supplement 'Gods, Demigods, and Heroes' was so offensive either)-- although the idea that the Gods can be statted up and fought just like any other monster is one I find a little questionable, and here's one of the double-standards: why not 'stat' up Jesus, Mohammed, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, Samson, Moses, Joshua, et al., and place some of them in the game that way? It's the double-standard I was pointing to, that's what really offends me-- double-standards and rampant bigotry of just about any sort offends me a lot. When someone comes along, willing to trample all over other people's beliefs, but considering their own as sacrosanct and "how dare you question it?" (along with the 'faith' cop-outs you mention in dealing with campus crusaders), I do not find it in me to tolerate their behavior. When I see it in people I game with-- usually in relation to the "that's just mythology, but my belief is real"-- not the 'it's just a game' aspect, the attitude some people do bring that they are out-right mocking the original myths as well, while clinging to their biblical myths as something different-- I get pissed off.
I don't see any problem with your attitude and handling of these matters in game, as clearly explained in this second post of yours.
There are still too many gamers out there though, who don't seem to do a good job of taking the game as a game, while not talking s*** about other belief systems (usually the same non-Judeo-Christian ones that are featured in the game); and one of the prime exhibits of this is how they would react to throwing a biblical hero or villain straight into the game as an opponent or ally-- but are okay with other people's heroes, Gods, and myths.
No worries Finn, sounds like we are largely in agreement and the double standard would annoy me. I may not be religious but I have strong feeling about not blaspheming anyone's deities. Well outside of rpgs I guess.
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Number one favorite is Milani, no question.
Pharasma, Shelyn, Shizuru, and Groetus are also quite high on my list.
Cayden and Irori get high marks for "Coolest ways of becoming a deity".
Honestly, Golarion has probably the most consistently fascinating and well thought out deities of any published setting I've ever read. As an "armchair expert" on mythology I've gotta say: Not only do the Paizo folks *really* know their stuff and do their homework, but the play around with all the parts and reassemble them with a superlative amount of creativity and ingenuity.
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I don't remember anything in the original Deities and Demigods that covered any actual current religions with modern day worshipers. There's no current Zeus worshipers out there to offend.
You'd be surprised. There are indeed worshippers of the Roman gods out there (Gaia and Hermes seem the most popular), and thirteen seperate 'Germanic neopagan' religions that worship the Norse gods (not counting four other religions that focus strictly on the worship of Odin!). Celtic and Egyptian gods still get some play as well.
I'm less clear on there being any significant followings for the Babylonian or Sumerian pantheons, but we live in a world that has churches based off of Dianetics and the Jedi code, so a worshipper of Anu or Marduk or Ki or Nanna-Sin wouldn't faze me.
And, even if none of that counted, Deities & Demigods had various Hindu gods listed. Regardless of whether you want to count the Asatru as a religion, with only a million or so neo-pagans in the world, it's safe to say that Hindu faith, with *900 million followers,* could be considered 'out there to offend' in the modern day.
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I never had a problem with stating out the deities of past actual cultures, because they're just that: past. I don't remember anything in the original Deities and Demigods that covered any actual current religions with modern day worshipers. There's no current Zeus worshipers out there to offend.
You're wrong.
And that's precisely the point I was getting at. There are modern Pagans who choose to follow and revive the faith in the Gods that the Greeks & Romans worshiped (not a lot on the Greco-Roman beliefs). 'Asatru' is a blanket term for people who believe in and practice Norse-Germanic Paganism... it's alive and well, and growing. And yes, that means the old Norse Gods have modern-day followers. I can keep going with this (there are more faiths and beliefs, some old, some new, than you seem to be aware of).
Total ignorance of other people's beliefs serves as an almost-guarantee for causing offense; even more so than people who have the basic social awareness that other faiths are out there in the world, and who are knowingly bigoted.
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But look at the Golarion Gods. We have Asmodeus, and we have Irori. OK Irori is not CALLED Buddha but I could see how it might offend some of that religion (actually are they ever offended?) to have a mock portrayal of Buddhism.
Funny you should mention that. I just finished reading the write up on Irori in the latest Adventure Path (#53 I think) and wondered if I should even bother sharing my thoughts about it here. As it happens I am an ordained priest in a Japanese Buddhist lineage and I knew that Irori was supposed to be Golarion's analogue for Buddha, so I was a bit disconcerted to find that he is not a very good analogue at all. So good thing Irori really isn't Buddha. At the same time, I wondered if the people who think he is supposed to be the analogue for Buddha and Buddhism will think that he really does represent Buddhism and he does not at all. What's wrong?
1. The Buddha, even in the pre-Mahayana teachings, was not just Lawful (in that he upheld a monastic code and also secular morality) but also encouraged the cultivation of loving-kindness and generosity and tried to counsel kings and brahmin priests against war and animal sacrifice. If Irori was really an analogue for Buddha then he should be Lawful Good. I very much consider myself the priest of a Lawful Good religion (not that I am a perfect LG but still that is what the atonement spell… I mean repentance ceremonies are for).
2. It mentions various ascetic practices endorsed by Irori. The Buddha actually rejected most forms of asceticism after their practice nearly killed him before he was able to attain enlightenment. To live simply but keep one's basic necessities for food, water, shelter, clothing, and medicine covered so that one's body and mind remain in good health is one of the reasons he taught the Middle Way. The self-torment practiced by some of his contemporaries he actually repudiated. The Buddha did teach a series of very mild ascetic practices called dhuta but they really consist of wearing cast away rags instead of accepting donated cloth or insisting on begging for food door to door instead of accepting invitations to eat in lay supporters homes and other such things that are more about living simply and not self-torment. To be honest though, there are people in my own lineage who undertake some pretty severe ascetic practices, but those really can't be blamed on the Buddha and have more to do with East Asian shamanism and the yamabushi (mountain warrior) traditions of Japan that were and are done for the sake of cultivating supernatural insights, perceptions, and powers of blessing and exorcism.
3. Irori is a god and lives in a heavenly realm (well, a nice place on Axis anyway). The thing is that the Buddha specifically denied being a god, and one of his titles was "teacher of gods and men" which set him apart from and even above the Vedic gods. Nirvana was also not any kind of heavenly realm but simply the cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion. It is true that idealized buddhas living in pure lands did later come into the picture, and functionally that may seem like a deification of Buddha living in a heavenly realm. These idealized buddhas in pure lands are not however meant to be understood as the ultimate reality but are merely skillful expressions that lead to liberation from birth and death. Despite superficial appearances, Buddhism does not view Buddha and nirvana is most definitely not a place but a state of liberation from suffering and being awake to the unconditioned. I hope those who think of Irori as Golarion's analogue for Buddha will not mistakenly think that RL Buddhism is like what is being described for Golarion.
In short, Irori is not an analogue for Buddha, but an analogue for superficial impressions that many people have about Buddhism/Asian religion that people may want to use for their Pathfinder stories and campaigns. I am fine with that as long as it is clear what Irori is and is not.
Who is my favorite Golarion deity or who are my favorites?
I really like Iomedae for many of the same reasons others have cited, the plucky paladin who gets thrown into the big leagues. Also, I really love the Deed of Paksanarrion by Elizabeth Moon (and its sequals) and I could wholeheartedly devote myself to someone like that.
Irori is actually not Good enough for me. Too cold and aloof and detached and who wants to end up on Axis for eternity? Boooooring….
I also picture Pharasma as Neil Gaiman's Death, and if Pharasma is even half as pretty, sweet, kind, cool, and wise as the latter than she would be one I could be a cleric of as well.
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There's not much on him(?) so far, but the NG Empyreal Lord Korada is possibly closer to Buddha than Irori, certainly at a glance. I've wanted to make a holy monk dedicated to him for a long time now.
I remember seeing some of the Hindu gods showing up in Planescape here and there. Tagging Kali as evil was opening up a can of worms all on its own. Pure theme-park Hinduism right there, and that's coming from someone that absolutely loved that setting.
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I never had a problem with stating out the deities of past actual cultures, because they're just that: past. I don't remember anything in the original Deities and Demigods that covered any actual current religions with modern day worshipers. There's no current Zeus worshipers out there to offend.
As it has already been pointed out, you're wrong. In addition, I would point out that several for completeness sake several of the far east dieties (don't have the book in front of me) are obviously Shinto Expys the same way Irori is a Buddha expy. Specifically, Shizuru is Amatarasu and another is a more sinister version of Susano-o, her depressed suicidal, passionate brother.
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Taishaku--
Thank you for the excellent posts. I've studied Buddhism (a little bit), and I have a lot of respect for the philosophies rooted in Buddhism (to the extent that I understand them, anyway), but I really appreciate reading the views of someone who is an active practitioner and more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.
Re: your second post-- Gaiman's 'Death' is a superb and wonderful character. If Pharasma is like that... yeah, I know who I'm following too. :D
I never had a problem with stating out the deities of past actual cultures, because they're just that: past. I don't remember anything in the original Deities and Demigods that covered any actual current religions with modern day worshipers. There's no current Zeus worshipers out there to offend.
Agreed. That there's some tiny segment of people out there who worship Zeus and probably doesn't care if Zeus is recognized by Pathfinder shouldn't be a deterrent to using Zeus as Pathfinder deity. If anything, it would be good publicity for Zeus worshipers since Zeus is basically a bad-ass force for good in the old Deities and Demigods.
I don't advocate making Jesus, Mohammed, or Bhudda into Pathfinder deities, but why not use extinct or near-extinct deities?
If somebody started worshiping Pharasma (which frankly wouldn't surprise me), are we obligated to create a new deity for Pathfinder? Or would that be crossing a line into ridiculous over-sensitivity, not to mention inconsistent with PF's current inclusion of demons, devils, and angelic beings?