Goblin Squad Member
|
Excellent point, Terquem! loot should be fully randomized, hopefully, and dungeons, while remaining relatively static (although cunning PCs might wipe a dungeon clean, expand it themselves, then come back in a few in-game 'weeks' to see what has moved in!) the actual monsters and challenges within should not, within reason.
Goblins in that cave just a 'half day's travel' outside of town that are wiped out shouldn't automatically respawn in that cave unless a sizeable number escaped the PCs or the region is infamous for being home to massive numbers of the little blighters.
Now a few 'in game' days pass and some Kobolds have moved in. Rather than rough-and-tumble barricades, the Kobolds have actively changed their new home as best they can, creating murder-holes and secret small-sized passageways that criss-cross their portion of the structure, meaning if the PCs think they can just walk in and press X to victory, somebody is going to either get hurt really badly, or worst case scenario, the entire party risks death at the hands of the Kobolds.
A couple of false-starts later, the Kobolds are wiped out and the Players, none of whom can afford a constant drain on their wallets by hiring guards and building a barracks just outside the instance to keep the next band of monsters bottled up or out of the caves permanently, have just built themselves a big old barricade and rammed it into the entrance, then covered the whole thing with rocks before going back to town for ye olde traditional mead and wenching.
A short while later, a Vampire moves in, able to use Gaseous Form to enter and exit as she pleases through a smaller entrance that the PCs missed or only filled with something highly permeable like rocks or a wooden barricade, and starts ressurecting the dead Kobolds as Skeletons and Zombies to guard her coffin and starts raiding the village for food and perhaps even minions.
PCs now have to trudge back to that gods-bedamned cave system and then they have to decide if something really is in there, and do they dare risk opening their own 'door' and going in after it, or do they set up a watch during the night-hours of the game and wait for the vampire, attempt to kill it and follow the mist trail to where-ever they think the lair might be. Meanwhile the Vampire has started ordering her Kobold Skeletons to dig new tunnels and pits and expands the caves to become something worthy of her and her new 'family'.
In a game where Players can quite literally change the face of the world, it can be troublesome for the Players to not know the terrain, all those hidden nooks and crannies where their enemies and rivals might be holed up and just waiting for an opportunity.
In regards to the Temple of Elemental Evil I expect it won't be just five-man bands running in and pushing their way to the Main Boss, but quite literally a server-wide event. Players come in and start doing what they can. For the 'biggest' heroes that means charging in and fighting the good fight. For the 'smaller' heroes, that can mean provides supplies like arrows and crossbow bolts, bandages, medicines and even shelter for the Assault-Teams.
Don't forget that while people are off trying to teabag the current 'big threat' the rest of the world is still plodding along.
Congratulations, you've pinned the Cultists within the second level, but they are too numerous now for your bands of heroes to do more than hold them in place. Unfortunately while this is happening, the local Hobgoblin tribes have decided now is a good time to raid the farms and smaller villages for food and slaves.
OSHI ..... time to send some of the bigger heroes back out into the world and get the smaller heroes to step up to the plate and help keep the pressure on all the fronts.
|
Again you're putting the very worst spin on things.
No it should not take months to make an 'average' item.
Who said anything about average?
I said it should not take weeks or months to create an exceptional item.
I literally used the word "exceptional."
I think crafting anything except perhaps a handful of the most powerful items in the game should be a relatively short-term task. On the order of hours worth of game time spent to completion, not weeks or months.
The crafting system I truly enjoyed was the one in Vanguard. It was a fully involved mini-game with resource allocation during the crafting process.
Crafting materials should come from as diverse array of sources as possible, including both harvested resources involving raised skills and as loot drops, both common and rare.
My personal favorite crated item of all time was the original Coldain Shawl in EQ. It took months to make, gathering of materials in some of the most dangerous locations in the game, involved raising all crafting skills, and took a guild effort to finish the final step. The reward. an item that was best-in-slot for spellcasters.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again you're putting the very worst spin on things.
No it should not take months to make an 'average' item.
Who said anything about average?
I said it should not take weeks or months to create an exceptional item.
I literally used the word "exceptional."
I think crafting anything except perhaps a handful of the most powerful items in the game should be a relatively short-term task. On the order of hours worth of game time spent to completion, not weeks or months.
The crafting system I truly enjoyed was the one in Vanguard. It was a fully involved mini-game with resource allocation during the crafting process.
Crafting materials should come from as diverse array of sources as possible, including both harvested resources involving raised skills and as loot drops, both common and rare.
My personal favorite crated item of all time was the original Coldain Shawl in EQ. It took months to make, gathering of materials in some of the most dangerous locations in the game, involved raising all crafting skills, and took a guild effort to finish the final step. The reward. an item that was best-in-slot for spellcasters.
All of this is awesome. A mini-game for crafting, reliance on multiple resource vectors, and a dramatic increase in effort necessary to obtain the best items in the game. These are all good things.
I'd love to see a thread on a crafting mini-game. I don't think there are a lot of features in the game deserving of their own mini-game (and the requisite time required to create the game), but crafting would be a cool one to see.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Excellent point, Terquem! loot should be fully randomized, hopefully, and dungeons, while remaining relatively static (although cunning PCs might wipe a dungeon clean, expand it themselves, then come back in a few in-game 'weeks' to see what has moved in!) the actual monsters and challenges within should not, within reason.
Goblins in that cave just a 'half day's travel' outside of town that are wiped out shouldn't automatically respawn in that cave unless a sizeable number escaped the PCs or the region is infamous for being home to massive numbers of the little blighters.
Now a few 'in game' days pass and some Kobolds have moved in. Rather than rough-and-tumble barricades, the Kobolds have actively changed their new home as best they can, creating murder-holes and secret small-sized passageways that criss-cross their portion of the structure, meaning if the PCs think they can just walk in and press X to victory, somebody is going to either get hurt really badly, or worst case scenario, the entire party risks death at the hands of the Kobolds.
A couple of false-starts later, the Kobolds are wiped out and the Players, none of whom can afford a constant drain on their wallets by hiring guards and building a barracks just outside the instance to keep the next band of monsters bottled up or out of the caves permanently, have just built themselves a big old barricade and rammed it into the entrance, then covered the whole thing with rocks before going back to town for ye olde traditional mead and wenching.
A short while later, a Vampire moves in, able to use Gaseous Form to enter and exit as she pleases through a smaller entrance that the PCs missed or only filled with something highly permeable like rocks or a wooden barricade, and starts ressurecting the dead Kobolds as Skeletons and Zombies to guard her coffin and starts raiding the village for food and perhaps even minions.
PCs now have to trudge back to that gods-bedamned cave system and then they have to decide if something really is in...
I agree with most of this, except for the random loot part. I hope mobs drop what they have. If a goblin drops an uber Dagger of Instant Kill, you should fight a goblin with an uber Dagger of Instant Kill. Optionally, monsters should also have to find sources of weapons/gear, be it dead adventurers, others monsters, raids on towns, or even crafting them themselves.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
4) Provide the materials for the item as a reward for the accomplishment of truly challenging tasks. No luck of the draw - you overcome the challenge, you come...
My argument really proves itself: I'm saying that you need to make your system compelling enough that people are willing to participate in it. EVE's mining system is clearly compelling enough, because people participate in it. Whether the compelling factors are tied to the payoff or the process is irrelevant.I'm just cautioning against making something too tedious and too drawn out for people to bother with. It sounded like HalfOrcHeavyMetal was arguing for a crafting system where you would pour weeks or months into a single item, and that sounds a little too involved to really grab people. You should be able to produce an exceptional item in a couple days' play time at most (assuming that you're already at the requisite skill level). The only items that should take longer are the absolute strongest in the game, and I'm talking on par with Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker during vanilla WoW.
Scott, wouldn't that depend on how common you wanted exceptional items to be?
It strikes me there are 3 different potential ways to make an item rare in a game.
1) Make the item uncraftable and only drop a limited quantity into the game (or only drop a limited quantity of the crafting materials for the item into the game).
2) Make the crafting resources neccesary very rare and relpenish at a very slow rate.
3) Make the item take so much effort and time to craft that very few people will be willing to do it.
The difference between 3 and the first two methods is that 1 & 2 are just luck of the draw... you happen to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with the right roll and you get the item....like winning the lottery. With #3, if the player really wants the item....they can obtain, they just have to be willing to put that much effort into it.
That won't work to limit the quantity of the item in the game unless you make the item or materials non-tradeable or the task only availble as a one time thing. Even if only a few people in the game are capable of overcoming the challenge....if the challenge doesn't take a hefty amount of time (or occur very infrequently)....they can repeat it over and over again, thus mass producing the materials. You have to have some other limiting factor that prevents how frequently the item is capable of being produced.
Even the toughest instances will be "farmed" assuming some segment of the player base is capable of beating them...and the instances can be repeated.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You know Fallen Earth (I tried it in closed beta) had a kinda interesting crafting system.
There were alot of components that went into building any given item...and you had to build each component before you could assemble it into the final item. This involved alot of gathering resources....but you could grab a fair amount of those resources through the normal course of adventuring.... it was only when you needed something very specific that you might spend some time devoted specificaly to looking for that resource (though I imagine dedicated crafters did that quite a bit more often)
The interesting part that individual components could take hours/days to assemble.... but assembly wasn't something that required the players to actualy sit there clicking on something repitively to do. Essentialy you clicked once to tell the system that you were working on that item.... it put the assembly on a timer...you went off and did your regular business and the item became availble to you once the timer had expired.
That made things take a real amount of time to build...but avoided the potential montony of having to sit there and do nothing but click on an anvil for hours on end while building something.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That won't work to limit the quantity of the item in the game unless you make the item or materials non-tradeableExactly.
That would seem to run counter to one of the stated core design goals for PFO - a player driven economy where people are engaged in gathering, crafting, building and trading commodities between each other. No trade = no economy.
It would also pretty much eliminate those players who's primary interest was trading/crafting rather then adventuring from the game.
You would be better off to compare Pathfinder online with EVE, in regards to mechanics, but as to flavor in relation to the mechanics? Who knows how that will pan out? Therefore, it would be best to discuss the type of features you would like in the Pathfinder online, regardless of the mechanics and then hope there is enough synergy between the mechanics the game world to pull it off. If you want Pathfinder to use the RPG rules, then you will be disappointed, as it was already stated that will not happen.
Vanguard's mini-game crafting system was nice, the only problem I had with it was the in-game explanation of what needed to be done to advance and gain different styles and so forth.
That game lacked severely when it came to in-game documentation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no. What you must see is that time is extremely relative in todays MMOs. What takes a "normal" players weeks or months may be completed by the 24/7 players within a few days. Now think of producing a great number of these items and the gap widens even more.
Also this is almost impossible to balance. Say mechanics would prevent anyone from gaining one best sword in a short amount of time by timers limiting the time you are allowed to craft each day (cheesy in itself). So either this sword is considered must have and then everyone would whine how much PFO is a casual unfriendly game or it is considered a waste of time and everyone just gets the next best thing.
Third introducing a vast amount of repetitive action to be required to produce a very sought after item will be oil in the fire of the "secondary market" and thus invite heavy botting.
So severely limiting the amount of the best items is not doing as good as simply NOT HAVING best in slot items.
Players should form the environment during adventuring.
In a MMO this would mean that the whole content needs to be instanced causing problems with shifting groups (can a PC that has yet not routed the Goblins take part in driving out the Vampire?) and the overall immersion (aka DDO intanced everything approach).
If these events were world events then you run into the problem of "low level" content disappearing. Sooner rather than later all goblins will have been thoroughly routed from all caves and then what? How do you start new characters?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no. What you must see is that time is extremely relative in todays MMOs. What takes a "normal" players weeks or months may be completed by the 24/7 players within a few days. Now think of producing a great number of these items and the gap widens even more.Also this is almost impossible to balance. Say mechanics would prevent anyone from gaining one best sword in a short amount of time by timers limiting the time you are allowed to craft each day (cheesy in itself). So either this sword is considered must have and then everyone would whine how much PFO is a casual unfriendly game or it is considered a waste of time and everyone just gets the next best thing.
Not necessarily, there are 2 factors that can limit that. 1. Craft time does not necessarily have to be time at keyboard. Just like skills in eve are leveled at full regardless of if you play 2 hours or 12 hours in a day, crafting can be the same.
2. The best items do not need to be WoW style 50x better then the worse items. Say you have cheap easy to produce weapon that does 18 damage, of which a crafter can make 1 an hour, then a super version of the weapon, that takes a crafter 2 days, and does 20 damage. Both are at risk of being destroyed and wearing out, Meaning the 18 damage weapon, is too expensive for even the experienced player to want to use all the time, but it is a boost so when he is doing something that seriously he must succeed at he will use the best tool he can get his hands on.
Third introducing a vast amount of repetitive action to be required to produce a very sought after item will be oil in the fire of the "secondary market" and thus invite heavy botting.So severely limiting the amount of the best items is not doing as good as simply NOT HAVING best in slot items.
I completely agree, that tedious repetative tasks that take absolutely no brainpower, should not be done by players, that's why I am in the time consuming crafting should be done afk. Mining and such IMO should not take long in the actual part of gathering the resources, getting to the mine etc... should be dangerous, difficult and risky from both player and NPC/monsters, but the actual act of mining should not involve an hour of clicking a rock.
Players should form the environment during adventuring.
In a MMO this would mean that the whole content needs to be instanced causing problems with shifting groups (can a PC that has yet not routed the Goblins take part in driving out the Vampire?) and the overall immersion (aka DDO intanced everything approach).If these events were world events then you run into the problem of "low level" content disappearing. Sooner rather than later all goblins will have been thoroughly routed from all caves and then what? How do you start new characters?
populations can go up, and they can go down. The biggest thing I dislike is the things spawning to replace themselves in 5 minutes. Personally I go for much larger events going on. Perhaps fights and issues that all players can contribute in some way to regardless of level. Say instead of goblins sitting in a cave, and then re-appearing in that same cave 10 seconds after you kill them. You get a wandering pack of goblins attack and surround your city one day, a different day you have a pack of wolves that move towards your farm land, a different day you have a dragon attacking the city etc... Success can be shared throughout the entire inhabitants for any player who had been active. (perhaps the king could decide to add bonus extra gold for the teams who contributed the most too the situation.)
IMO it isn't a persistent world when everything you do immediately resets itself, but that doesn't mean that new things can't occur on a regular basis.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no. What you must see is that time is extremely relative in todays MMOs. What takes a "normal" players weeks or months may be completed by the 24/7 players within a few days. Now think of producing a great number of these items and the gap widens even more.Also this is almost impossible to balance. Say mechanics would prevent anyone from gaining one best sword in a short amount of time by timers limiting the time you are allowed to craft each day (cheesy in itself). So either this sword is considered must have and then everyone would whine how much PFO is a casual unfriendly game or it is considered a waste of time and everyone just gets the next best thing.
Third introducing a vast amount of repetitive action to be required to produce a very sought after item will be oil in the fire of the "secondary market" and thus invite heavy botting.
So severely limiting the amount of the best items is not doing as good as simply NOT HAVING best in slot items.
1) PFO does not have to be "a casual freindly" game. The market is fairly saturated with "casual freindly" games...even if it's by far the largest market segment...fighting everyone and thier brother for that segment is not a good formula for success unless you have a tremendous amount of financial resources to sink into that battle.
2) People will "whine" if they don't get a +5 Vorpal Sword of Doom on day one. Then they'll "whine" that they are bored if they are given it.
Dev's are generaly well served to write those people off and not pay attention to thier "whines" as they can't be satisfied and you'll pretty much wreck your game in trying. The key to user feedback is to be well tuned to the signal to noise ratio...learn to seperate the "whines" from the usefull criticism...and learn to recognize suggestions that fit well into your design goals for the product from ones that don't.
3) There is a VERY wide spectrum between "must have" and "waste of time"...it's not a binary choice...in fact those measures are extremely subjective to the individual...for some folks even a .000001 percent advantage is a "must have"...for others even a 10 percent bonus is a "why bother". IMO, generaly speaking high quality items should offer a SMALL but distinct advantage over those generaly available ( in D&D terms maybe a +1 to hit/+2 damage or something like that). They should never be considered REQUIRED gear for content...thus they only "matter" for those whom having the absolute best gear is a goal in itself.
4) You forget that crafted items can be sold or traded....so even those not interested in doing crafting have a chance of obtaining one...if they are willing to pay the price.
5) Agree with you on the "Repetitive Action" thing.... crafting shouldn't be a grind, it should be a fun and meaningfull activity in itself...ideally fun & meaningfull enough to replace combat for those who truely have that bent. I do however think you need the crafting of powerfull items to take both time and rare resources...and ideally multiple stages of construction. Otherwise the "best" sword in the game becomes just "ho hum...another best sword...I have 3 of them in my locker". What makes powerfull items special is exactly that they are rare...and not everyone has one. I favor timers for powerfull items because it imposes a construction limit on such items to limit the quantity introduced to the game without imposing grind....and it doesn't neccesarly have to be "cheesy" for a fantasy based game. Remember we are dealing with magic here... what's so out of place with something like "...and the metal for the blade must burn in the fires of the Dragon Forge for 2 full cycles of the moon before it can be hammered into shape"? For normal or lower powered items you could have very short timers so crafters aren't stuck with nothing to do while thier masterpieces are awaiting construction.
Players should form the environment during adventuring.
In a MMO this would mean that the whole content needs to be instanced causing problems with shifting groups (can a PC that has yet not routed the Goblins take part in driving out the Vampire?) and the overall immersion (aka DDO intanced everything approach).If these events were world events then you run into the problem of "low level" content disappearing. Sooner rather than later all goblins will have been thoroughly routed from all caves and then what? How do you start new characters?
No I think you've got this completely wrong. Think something in design closer to GW2's Dynamic Events system. There is no instances and there is no linear storyline. If the Goblins have been routed, they are routed for EVERYONE. Thus YOU don't have to take part in the Goblins being routed to fight the Vampire...SOMEONE may have to do that...but if the Goblins have already been routed... then the fights with the Vampire...for everyone....and it's ok if you missed out on todays threat because TOMORROW they'll be a new one.
Note, that you are assuming a static world design where once something gets taken out nothing new can come in to take it's place. That need not be the case with todays technology. Instead of designing a system of "hand place mob here, script mob behavior", you design a system where it's very easy for a GM to fill a hopper with different types of mobs and then place triggers of what happens to the environment if those mobs are generated and then place triggers on what happens when players interact with that environment in certain ways (example... Kill all Goblins in Area trigger environment empty for x days... environment empty for x days trigger get new inhabitants for cave from generation system for cave dwellers) combine this with an engine that's got good tools for GM's to run Live Events on the fly (which already existed 10 years ago in many MMO engines) and you've got a pretty good base for dynamic PVE. Also note that PVE is only going to be a small portion of the game.... PvP is a large focus...and that by it's nature has the elements for dynamic content without any intervention neccesary by the Dev's whatsoever.
Finally realize that the Dev's are planning on adding to the geographical area covered by the game in relation to the rate at which the game adds player population. Thus, even though some areas MIGHT get relatively cleaned out of monsters....which I expect will/SHOULD happen a bit in areas players consider valuable to them....there are ALWAYS going to be new frontiers getting added to the game where players can adventure. Don't assume, as with WOW, that those frontiers will just be high level content...it's likely the case that there will be a range of content available in them.
They just need a good engine for easly building terrain.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
1) PFO does not have to be "a casual freindly" game...
Yes, it will. Not being casual friendly is not about competition. It is possible to create an immersive game that is prized by hardcore players and still is casual friendly to some degree.
Also a games sucess is dependant on the amount of NEW players it can attract. A game of some age will be very unfriendly to new players if it is unfriendly to casual players.
...Think something in design closer to GW2's Dynamic Events system...
It seems improbable that a game designer will even bother to design an area of Goblins if this area will become an area of Vampires sooner than later WITHOUT reverting back to the area of Goblins after some time.
And even then the analogy is wrong, because in GW2 these areas are in the same "level range" (unlike Goblins and Vampires).
So no, the system in GW2 is not like anything that has been proposed here.
...You forget that crafted items can be sold or traded...
Ah, instead of endless farming and skilling I just need a vast amount of money... Talk about secondary market/botting heaven.
No, the solution is a system where there is no best in slot item but there are several items that are best for a given challenge/skillset. This way you can make the items moderately hard to obtain - something that even a casual player has the hope of attaining in an sane amount of time. This way the die hard players will be able to be real allrounders with the gear for each and every challenge and the casual players will be able to be specialists.
If some gear exists that is really hard to get it should offer only very minor bonuses over the second best thing and instead offer some fun abilities for showing off.
Ah, instead of endless farming and skilling I just need a vast amount of money... Talk about secondary market/botting heaven.
I have a question about this. Why is the secondary market/botting considered a bad thing? They add to the backbone of the economy and produce revenue for the game. Personally, I don't get why more companies do not facilitate the secondary market by making a system that allows them to take a cut.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have a question about this. Why is the secondary market/botting considered a bad thing? They add to the backbone of the economy and produce revenue for the game. Personally, I don't get why more companies do not facilitate the secondary market by making a system that allows them to take a cut.Ah, instead of endless farming and skilling I just need a vast amount of money... Talk about secondary market/botting heaven.
Well first of all the means that are used, such as botting, creates hell for the legitimate players, as bots themselves generally killsteal/get in the way etc... Second they cause mass reduction in the price of selling those items that they bot. As a result people who normally would normally spend an hour gathering X, now have to spend 4 hours to make the same amount of money. The items that can be gained by the bots price goes in the toilet, and as the gold is then sold then inflation goes up, the large expensive items that cannot be botted's prices skyrocket, while the price of what people used to work with to get there continues to have price decreases, if left unchecked it reaches the point where you absolutely have to buy gold to buy anything worth having.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Avatar
Currently, a Titan takes approximately eight weeks to build (in real time), not including its primary components which are required for construction.
The "primary components" require 6 characters to work just under 40 days each to harvest. And additional weeks to manufacture.
PLEX!I have a question about this. Why is the secondary market/botting considered a bad thing? They add to the backbone of the economy and produce revenue for the game. Personally, I don't get why more companies do not facilitate the secondary market by making a system that allows them to take a cut.Ah, instead of endless farming and skilling I just need a vast amount of money... Talk about secondary market/botting heaven.
I was under the impression that you could not exchange PLEX back for cash, only play time. Thus it does not make the secondary market obsolete, only reduces the number buyers. That being said, it does create solid values to judge the secondary market by.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, it will. Not being casual friendly is not about competition. It is possible to create an immersive game that is prized by hardcore players and still is casual friendly to some degree.Also a games sucess is dependant on the amount of NEW players it can attract. A game of some age will be very unfriendly to new players if it is unfriendly to casual players.
Absolutely disagree. There is nothing about whether a game is "hardcore" or "casual" that dictates whether it is "immersive" or not... they are completely seperate and unrelated attributes
Furthermore NEW = "casual". Those are also unrelated attributes. "Casual/Hardcore" simply indicates what experience the player is looking to get out of the game. NEW simply means the player doesn't have experience of the game yet...it's not indicative of what the player wants to get out of the game.
Example, there are guys that take up jogging because they want to run in the park for 20 minutes, once a month, in the summer in fair wheather, when the mood strikes them and look nice in thier snazzy new sneakers. That's a "casual" jogger.
Then there are guys that take up jogging because they want to run the NY City Marathon. That's the "hardcore" jogger. They both may start out running only 20 minutes in the park....but the "hardcore" jogger is NOT going to be satisfied with any program that keeps him there for any length of time. He specificaly WANTS a program that ramps up the difficulty on him fairly quickly....because he's not going to get to his end goal unless it does.
Being "NEW player friendly" really isn't about casual or hardcore... it's about how the player is introduced to the game and the tools and support he's give for learning to play it
It seems improbable that a game designer will even bother to design an area of Goblins if this area will become an area of Vampires sooner than later WITHOUT reverting back to the area of Goblins after some time.
I think here is where you are getting off track. In this instance (and BTW, I have no idea if PFO is looking to go this route, I'm just describing how it COULD work), The designer isn't "building an area for Goblins or for Vampires". They are building a Cave or a Ruin, They are building a system for changing certain properties of an area based upon it's occupants (or state), They are building a system to handle changing the state of an Area and they are building a system to generate occupants for an area.
The "Let's build an area for Goblins" model that many MMO's have used so far is kind of the equivalent of the 80's era programming technique of hardcoding everything. The method I'm talking about is more akin to the object oriented model where you are building objects then tweaking different properties of them to present different outcomes....combined with the services or modular code model where you are really concerned with inputs and outputs and going to different systems to plug them into each other to get the end results you want to deliver to the user.
The later method is more complex, since you have to build all the rather complicated archetecture and systems to handle those sorts of inputs and outputs. However it also gives you much more DYNAMIC results...it lets you do things that the static model can't handle efficiently...and it lets you REUSE objects (in this case areas) for multiple purposes. It also makes it much easier to change or add to what those objects do later. Finally, in theory...it makes it much more efficient to add content to your application...as you can generate new instances of those objects and tweak thier properties appropriately to get a new object...you possibly could even create new classes of objects by using some method of inheritance to generate them from existing ones.
And even then the analogy is wrong, because in GW2 these areas are in the same "level range" (unlike Goblins and Vampires).So no, the system in GW2 is not like anything that has been proposed here.
Actualy, GW2 as I undestand it, is building a system very similar to what is being proposed here. Their Dynamic Event system is essentialy an OBJECT STATE ENGINE. Essentialy an Object (in this case, an area) can be in one of N states. Then they have triggers which push the object to a different state based upon the conditions of the trigger. These triggers can be based upon timers or based upon player actions or they can be based upon a combination of the two. What's really exciting is that they can even be based upon state changes in OTHER objects (meaning you can get a ripple effect from one object to another that fires off chains of effects...which has very profound possibilties)
Using our example, the Cave (that's the object) may start out in the state of being occupied by goblins. If the players kill off the goblins it may trigger the cave to switch to a new state - empty...and presumably some things about the cave may change (like there may no longer be goblin sleeping skins on the floor). If the players don't kill off the goblins in a certain amount of time it may fire off a different trigger pushing the cave to a different state. Maybe the goblins now have Ogre's living with them. Now here is where it gets even cooler, the Cave changing state to have Ogre living in it can fire off a trigger in a completely seperate object to change it's state. For example a nearby village that was in a state of being peacefull can be pushed into a state of being raided by Ogres.
That, in a nutshell, describes GW2's Dynamic Events system. It's not entirely novel...as many existing games, even themeparks, use antecedents of it. The "phasing" or even instancing systems that games use carry with them some of that functionality. GW2's system is the next evolution of that. The things that is bringing new to the table is the sophistication of the system. The fact that the state changes are conditional based upon the players actions... so rather then the typical linear a -> b -> c... it's players do option 1 = a -> b, players do option 2 = a -> d. Also of critical importance is that state is open world rather then instanced to a particular player/group and is maintained. Note that GW2's system is closed loop...in that at some point there is a way for the object to get pushed back to it's origional state....it's just not a given as to how long or theoreticaly even IF that happens...as some of the triggers that push it there can be dependant upon player actions.
The system I'm talking about would be pretty close to that. The only thing GW2 hasn't done is figure out how to effectively genercize it to some degree (basicaly the services model or modular component) so that outputs from one system can be plugged as inputs into multiple different objects. For example a "monster generation system" that gives "goblins" as an output could be plugged into multiple area objects a "Cave", a "Ruin" etc to get results that are relevant to each object. That's probably a very tough nut to crack...but there is a big payoff in doing so. I think it's the natural next step in the evolution of GW2's system that some future game is going to shoot for. The drawback of GW2's system is that they end up having to hand design seperate content for each state in an object in thier system. If they can genercize it to some degree...it makes it VASTLY more efficient then anything that's currently out there for making content...and still allows for that content to be dynamic..... you build each monster set ONCE.... you build each area ONCE and you plug the OUTPUT of the monster generation system into the INPUT of the area inhabitant system with the parameters you want to get 500 different areas with different monsters in them that can actualy CHANGE based upon the conditions which you specify.
Using that method you only build 1,000 different pieces of content (500 monsters and 500 areas) to get 250000 potential variations in results. Combined with GW2's system that would kinda be the holy grail of automated dynamic content in PVE gaming. Note that for the purposes of our discussion... the level of the creature in question is irrelevent ...that's just a potential paramter that you could pass to the monster generation system to narrow your potential results....what's relevent is that nature of how the system itself works.
Note that we're talking PVE here... PFO is supposed to be PvP focused...which by it's very nature is dynamic...so I'm not sure they'll even bother thinking about something like that. However for a sandbox game that wanted to do PVE, it would be a really compelling way to go if they could get the technical mechanics worked out. Note also that it's obviously different then GM run LIVE events which also can be quite dynamic (and more finely tailored to boot) but require a human being in the driver seat at the time things are happening.
Unfortunately, every game I have seen that is PVP focused moves away from keeping the content fresh. But from what you described for GW2, the approach sounds logical and manageable, at least on paper. In regards to instances versus a shared world, the whole idea of resource competition comes to mind, but after experiencing EQ versus alot of the current games, I prefer a world that is less forgiving, which in turn can foster a tighter community. However, you still have to pay attention to group, raid, and guild sizes to prevent making the experience all inclusive to a specific set of players. Where EQ went to the extreme in RAID size, WOW made it too small with 25. The sweet spot is somewhere around 50 or so, so guilds have to cooperate, or even allow non-members to participate.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...You forget that crafted items can be sold or traded...Ah, instead of endless farming and skilling I just need a vast amount of money... Talk about secondary market/botting heaven.
If money or really ANY item (including the characters themselves) have any usefullness whatsoever they are subject to the same pressures of secondary markets/botting. The extension of that arguement would be no game...or at the very least a game without any advancement or aquisition of items/wealth whatsover. Essentialy BattleField 2 (minus the unlocks) with a fantasy skin.
Secondary/markets & botting can be issues in any game with any sort of advancement, wealth, gear or resource aquisition... but they need to be (and can be) addressed as a seperate function....
For example... if you make REAL timers...as opposed to just click away 24/7 as much as you can....as a factor in making items you reduce the practicality of botting. As in order to "bot" in such a game, they have to create a secondary account....which in a subscription based game they HAVE TO PAY FOR.... which only make sense for a gold farmer to do if they can sell the goods they are able aquire with that "bot" account for a substantialy higher price then what the subscription costs them.
The other thing you can do is make aquiring the resource/wealth being "botted" less predictable for a "bot" to be able to do effectively without getting tripped up.
Finaly combine that with some enforcement method...for looking at highly reptitive actions ...login periods sustained over long periods of time....combined with regular large transfers of resources/wealth to different individuals.... and you've got some mechanisms for combating (although probably not entirely eliminating) botting.
No, the solution is a system where there is no best in slot item but there are several items that are best for a given challenge/skillset. This way you can make the items moderately hard to obtain - something that even a casual player has the hope of attaining in an sane amount of time. This way the die hard players will be able to be real allrounders with the gear for each and every challenge and the casual players will be able to be specialists.If some gear exists that is really hard to get it should offer only very minor bonuses over the second best thing and instead offer some fun abilities for showing off.
I generaly don't disagree with you all that much here. I just think that there should be some classes of items in the game which aren't in common usage whether by hardcore players or casual.....and that items in general (aside from very basic stuff)...should require the efforts of multiple players (hence trade, hence player economy) to construct.
I also think we might differ a little on the nature of "moderately hard" or "very minor" bonus. I think the bonus should be minor but still distinct enough to be noticed by those who really care about such things.
Note also, I assume we are talking about personal items (i.e. swords, armor, etc)....not things like Castles....which, IMO, if they are player constructable should take the concerted efforts of large groups of organized players over a significant amount of time to construct.
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no.http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Avatar
Currently, a Titan takes approximately eight weeks to build (in real time), not including its primary components which are required for construction.
The "primary components" require 6 characters to work just under 40 days each to harvest. And additional weeks to manufacture.
If that is an example of a "very powerful crafted item" I don't have a problem with that. It's about the equivalent of small castle or manor house.
I had the distinct feeling that the OP was thinking of a sword or piece of armor.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no.http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Avatar
Currently, a Titan takes approximately eight weeks to build (in real time), not including its primary components which are required for construction.
The "primary components" require 6 characters to work just under 40 days each to harvest. And additional weeks to manufacture.
If that is an example of a "very powerful crafted item" I don't have a problem with that. It's about the equivalent of small castle or manor house.
I had the distinct feeling that the OP was thinking of a sword or piece of armor.
Relatively unique, player made legendary weapons and/or armor should be at least of equal value to a PC made fort. They should be more rare than forts and this is the only way to insure they remain such. But, just because it takes months to make a weapon, does not mean you have to grind for months to get it...they should be so difficult that not many are willing to put in the effort, keeping them rare. There will be decent weapons for the rest of us.
I would be an advocate of making the recipe itself unique, but then the person who knows it would leave game and it would never get made...and I am not willing to accept that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That would seem to run counter to one of the stated core design goals for PFO - a player driven economy where people are engaged in gathering, crafting, building and trading commodities between each other. No trade = no economy.That won't work to limit the quantity of the item in the game unless you make the item or materials non-tradeableExactly.
Which is why you only use that option for certain exceptional items.
It would also pretty much eliminate those players who's primary interest was trading/crafting rather then adventuring from the game.
I think that a game that tries to make a lot of very different things equally high priorities is doomed to fail. I think that PFO should make adventuring (whatever that means) the primary activity in the game, and create other activities (like crafting and rulership and trading) to support it.
Crafting should obviously be compelling and enjoyable in its own right, but I think that including "Playing a character who does nothing but craft and trade should be just as enjoyable as playing a character who adventures and dabbles in those things on the side" as a design goal is not the best way to move forward.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no.http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Avatar
Currently, a Titan takes approximately eight weeks to build (in real time), not including its primary components which are required for construction.
The "primary components" require 6 characters to work just under 40 days each to harvest. And additional weeks to manufacture.
If that is an example of a "very powerful crafted item" I don't have a problem with that. It's about the equivalent of small castle or manor house.
I had the distinct feeling that the OP was thinking of a sword or piece of armor.
Same. Which, now that you mention it, is more analogous to the creation of a single turret to stick onto a Titan than creating the entire Titan itself.
Creating a Titan strikes me as much more analogous to outfitting an end-game character entirely in the best gear available. Taking a long time to acquire all of that strikes me as reasonable, and a good design aim.
I don't really think crafting a Titan should be compared to crafting an awesome sword.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm going to agree and disagree with this. I think there should be a primary activity. I think that activity should be rulership, as you put it. Every other activity should be there to support that one. You should need Lumberjacks to harvest the wood for a frame, Stonemasons to gather and shape stone for the walls, and warriors to defend your fortress. You should also need dedicated craftsmen and miners to keep your army equiped.I think that a game that tries to make a lot of very different things equally high priorities is doomed to fail. I think that PFO should make adventuring (whatever that means) the primary activity in the game, and create other activities (like crafting and rulership and trading) to support it.
Crafting should obviously be compelling and enjoyable in its own right, but I think that including "Playing a character who does nothing but craft and trade should be just as enjoyable as playing a character who adventures and dabbles in those things on the side" as a design goal is not the best way to move forward.
I'm leery of making rulership the most engrossing feature of the game, because that means that relatively few people get to experience the most compelling features the game has to offer.
Even in EVE, which puts a pretty heavy emphasis on controlling real estate, the coolest parts of the game are in combat and combat strategy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
..
I would be an advocate of making the recipe itself unique, but then the person who knows it would leave game and it would never get made...and I am not willing to accept that.
make crafting process of unique items random. make unique item time-limited, say 1 month real-time duration. person with unique can choose to hide it, but they would lose it in one month. think of artifacts that disappear if not used for their intended purpose.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...
Even in EVE, which puts a pretty heavy emphasis on controlling real estate, the coolest parts of the game are in combat and combat strategy.
still, in EVE it's entirely possible to play a character that has no combat ability. traders, miners, manufacturers, researchers, couriers; none of them are required to have combat skills.
equally, in PFO personal combat (either PVE or PVP) might be focus, but it should not be requirement.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Avatar
Currently, a Titan takes approximately eight weeks to build (in real time), not including its primary components which are required for construction.
The "primary components" require 6 characters to work just under 40 days each to harvest. And additional weeks to manufacture.
This is not what I ment with "item" and, I would say, neither did the OP.
A Titan is more akin to a Castle in PFO I would guess and not to a Sword or Ring.
And, yes, I think this would be an entirely appropiate amount of effort to build a small castle.
Would crafting unique items under different circumstances, such as weather, star signs, natural disasters, etc., while meeting different requirements like animal/humanoid sacrifices add flavor (which also makes it more difficult to craft an unique item)?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some ideas here are not working at all!
Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no. What you must see is that time is extremely relative in todays MMOs. What takes a "normal" players weeks or months may be completed by the 24/7 players within a few days. Now think of producing a great number of these items and the gap widens even more.Also this is almost impossible to balance. Say mechanics would prevent anyone from gaining one best sword in a short amount of time by timers limiting the time you are allowed to craft each day (cheesy in itself). So either this sword is considered must have and then everyone would whine how much PFO is a casual unfriendly game or it is considered a waste of time and everyone just gets the next best thing.
Third introducing a vast amount of repetitive action to be required to produce a very sought after item will be oil in the fire of the "secondary market" and thus invite heavy botting.
So severely limiting the amount of the best items is not doing as good as simply NOT HAVING best in slot items.
Mmm...not really.
First off, you could set hard time constraints. I.E. it takes x hours to create component y. Component y will be made after x hours, regardless of being logged in or not.
Provided you do not include a queue system, the 24/7 players might get a few hours worth of advantage over a more casual player, but there will still be a minimum time limit, which could be, for very powerful items, measured in days.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I dunno Kit, the point is quite valid. For anything less than 'epic' level, several days should be, at most, what it takes. Straw that breaks the camel's back and all.
As far as I'm aware, Pathfinder Online has a day/night cycle of three hours, meaning each day and night is 90 minutes long. Perhaps each full 'cycle' allows you to craft up to 10,000 gold pieces worth of item, 10 times what would be allowed under Pen and Paper rules, and this is at the 'half buying cost' rule.
So, we've got a +2 Weapon in the works? Takes a just under an hour to 'craft', give or take a few minutes if you have to make the weapon and enchant it. Pump that up to a +3 weapon, it might take just over three hours to do.
I do heartily agree with the crafting while logging out scenario, albeit at a limited skill-up reward for not being online while the crafting is taking place.
On one hand, this makes it much 'faster' to go out into the Wilds/Enemy Territory and go kill things for their stuff, but the Crafting should allow you to make exactly what it is you are after. Risk vs Reward again. Risk of PvE with the possibility of being attacked for a quicker but random reward, or play it safe and stay within a city or fortified town and gain the reward at a much slower pace.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I dunno Kit, the point is quite valid. For anything less than 'epic' level, several days should be, at most, what it takes. Straw that breaks the camel's back and all.
Oh, sorry...I agree with you then. I was only referring to epic legendary unique items. This, in my opinion is the only way keep them so.
In fact...this might be an interesting twist on crafting quality items. What if quality versus time is an exponential curve and your skill level gives you a cap to the quality. To illustrate, a crude sword takes .8t to craft and this is the cap a beginner blacksmith is given. As they craft a few, they can make better swords, eventually being able to craft normal swords which take time t to craft. They could still spend .8t and craft crude swords, but they can take just a bit longer and make normal swords. They could even spend 5t making a sword, but because of their cap, their are limited to normal sword quality. As they progress in skill however, they are able to make better swords, +1 swords at 2t, +2 swords at 4t, +3 swords at 8t...etc.
This would allow a Master to spend a large amount of time crafting a weapon and get big bonuses, but each increment of the bonus takes twice as long and eventually becomes more trouble than it is worth...except for those few who decide to push the boundaries and make what would become legendary items.
Combine this with a crafting system that asks for generic parts, such as metal and leather...and the exact choice of metal(s) and leather(s) you choose would determine the properties of the item.
EDIT: Replace sword/weapon with item, I meant this to be generic.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I dunno Kit, the point is quite valid. For anything less than 'epic' level, several days should be, at most, what it takes. Straw that breaks the camel's back and all.Oh, sorry...I agree with you then. I was only referring to epic legendary unique items. This, in my opinion is the only way keep them so.
In fact...this might be an interesting twist on crafting quality items. What if quality versus time is an exponential curve and your skill level gives you a cap to the quality. To illustrate, a crude sword takes .8t to craft and this is the cap a beginner blacksmith is given. As they craft a few, they can make better swords, eventually being able to craft normal swords which take time t to craft. They could still spend .8t and craft crude swords, but they can take just a bit longer and make normal swords. They could even spend 5t making a sword, but because of their cap, their are limited to normal sword quality. As they progress in skill however, they are able to make better swords, +1 swords at 2t, +2 swords at 4t, +3 swords at 8t...etc.
This would allow a Master to spend a large amount of time crafting a weapon and get big bonuses, but each increment of the bonus takes twice as long and eventually becomes more trouble than it is worth...except for those few who decide to push the boundaries and make what would become legendary items.
Combine this with a crafting system that asks for generic parts, such as metal and leather...and the exact choice of metal(s) and leather(s) you choose would determine the properties of the item.
EDIT: Replace sword/weapon with item, I meant this to be generic.
Not a bad idea, also do keep in mind one fact of such a system in a sandbox game vs a normal MMO. Items have to have a way to be destroyed as well. Whether they slowly take battle damage, have a chance to be sundered by players or monsters etc.. The use of that +5 Vorpal Flaming sword of instant destruction that took 4 months to craft, still is worth using 100% of the time longterm, unless there is a good reason not to use it. (IE I'm not going to use this sword right now because I can handle this fight just fine without it, and I don't want to risk the chance it will take damage). It adds strategy into bringing the right gear for the situation, keeps the economy for less then perfect items afloat (high level players have reason to buy mid level items from mid level players), but then when something at great value is at stake (IE a war in which they risk losing their town they spent a year building). Then the big guns are pulled out.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Not a bad idea, also do keep in mind one fact of such a system in a sandbox game vs a normal MMO. Items have to have a way to be destroyed as well. Whether they slowly take battle damage, have a chance to be sundered by players or monsters etc.. The use of that +5 Vorpal Flaming sword of instant destruction that took 4 months to craft, still...I dunno Kit, the point is quite valid. For anything less than 'epic' level, several days should be, at most, what it takes. Straw that breaks the camel's back and all.Oh, sorry...I agree with you then. I was only referring to epic legendary unique items. This, in my opinion is the only way keep them so.
In fact...this might be an interesting twist on crafting quality items. What if quality versus time is an exponential curve and your skill level gives you a cap to the quality. To illustrate, a crude sword takes .8t to craft and this is the cap a beginner blacksmith is given. As they craft a few, they can make better swords, eventually being able to craft normal swords which take time t to craft. They could still spend .8t and craft crude swords, but they can take just a bit longer and make normal swords. They could even spend 5t making a sword, but because of their cap, their are limited to normal sword quality. As they progress in skill however, they are able to make better swords, +1 swords at 2t, +2 swords at 4t, +3 swords at 8t...etc.
This would allow a Master to spend a large amount of time crafting a weapon and get big bonuses, but each increment of the bonus takes twice as long and eventually becomes more trouble than it is worth...except for those few who decide to push the boundaries and make what would become legendary items.
Combine this with a crafting system that asks for generic parts, such as metal and leather...and the exact choice of metal(s) and leather(s) you choose would determine the properties of the item.
EDIT: Replace sword/weapon with item, I meant this to be generic.
100% agree. Unrepairable wear and tear also keeps crafters in business. Ryzom is like this, the best gear takes a lot of effort, and most people keep it for the best of times such as PvP contests over resources.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
100% agree. Unrepairable wear and tear also keeps crafters in business. Ryzom is like this, the best gear takes a lot of effort, and most people keep it for the best of times such as PvP contests over resources.
Why not have the crafters provide the repairs? That way they maintain business even after they outfit someone completely, and they can still craft new gear for new, advancing players.
Better still, provide NPC repairers who simply restore the weapon, but give PC crafters the ability to hone a piece of gear when they repair it, increasing its repair percentage to, say, 125% and granting it a small bonus to its stats until its repair percentage drops to below 100%.
That way players who prefer to not bother with other PCs for their repairs can use NPCs, but a solid incentive remains in place to use a PC for repairs.
There are more details that would need to be hammered out than this (would materials be required for repairs, or just gold?) but I think it might be a good place to start.
Yeah, making items permanently wear away to nothing is just another barrier to entry for long-term players.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
100% agree. Unrepairable wear and tear also keeps crafters in business. Ryzom is like this, the best gear takes a lot of effort, and most people keep it for the best of times such as PvP contests over resources.Why not have the crafters provide the repairs? That way they maintain business even after they outfit someone completely, and they can still craft new gear for new, advancing players.
Better still, provide NPC repairers who simply restore the weapon, but give PC crafters the ability to hone a piece of gear when they repair it, increasing its repair percentage to, say, 125% and granting it a small bonus to its stats until its repair percentage drops to below 100%.
That way players who prefer to not bother with other PCs for their repairs can use NPCs, but a solid incentive remains in place to use a PC for repairs.
There are more details that would need to be hammered out than this (would materials be required for repairs, or just gold?) but I think it might be a good place to start.
Long as it takes at least 50% of the time and resources of the weapon to repair it, that can be workable. The bottom line is the resources and the cost, as well as even time still need to be thrown in as costs to make using the best weapon in situations where an average weapon would suffice, a costly and uncommon decision.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yeah, making items permanently wear away to nothing is just another barrier to entry for long-term players.
And also sort of screws with the time-honored fantasy trope of a warrior and his weapon being inseparable.
Practically speaking, people will probably go through dozens of weapons over their career, but everyone likes to imagine that they will eventually end up with a legendary weapon that they will cleave through dragons with forever.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Long as it takes at least 50% of the time and resources of the weapon to repair it, that can be workable. The bottom line is the resources and the cost, as well as even time still need to be thrown in as costs to make using the best weapon in situations where an average weapon would suffice, a costly and uncommon decision.100% agree. Unrepairable wear and tear also keeps crafters in business. Ryzom is like this, the best gear takes a lot of effort, and most people keep it for the best of times such as PvP contests over resources.Why not have the crafters provide the repairs? That way they maintain business even after they outfit someone completely, and they can still craft new gear for new, advancing players.
Better still, provide NPC repairers who simply restore the weapon, but give PC crafters the ability to hone a piece of gear when they repair it, increasing its repair percentage to, say, 125% and granting it a small bonus to its stats until its repair percentage drops to below 100%.
That way players who prefer to not bother with other PCs for their repairs can use NPCs, but a solid incentive remains in place to use a PC for repairs.
There are more details that would need to be hammered out than this (would materials be required for repairs, or just gold?) but I think it might be a good place to start.
Sure
Yeah, making items permanently wear away to nothing is just another barrier to entry for long-term players.
I am not sure what you mean by this. The fact that your sword will only last you six months and you will need to find another keeps you from buying the sword?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Practically speaking, people will probably go through dozens of weapons over their career, but everyone likes to imagine that they will eventually end up with a legendary weapon that they will cleave through dragons with forever.
An imaginary goal that fails miserably in every form of RPG, including the P&P game, and doubly flawed for an MMO that the goal is to keep a flowing economy.