Power Attack is the most important feat for a monk. Seriously.This is about the worst advice I can imagine for a class which specializes in making lots of attacks at lowered attack bonuses -- chisel those bonuses even more by taking "feats than make you miss", and you make yourself useless.
You do realize that monks in Pathfinder use full BAB if the flurry, right? They get a -2 from full BAB when flurrying, but that is often still better than if not flurrying (depending on level). So yeah, they can afford a small minus to hit for a big bonus to damage (the bonus from power attack helps each time they hit).
Doing lots of hits is good, but the goal is lots of damage... hits lots for lots of damage does more than just hit lots by itself.
It was solid advice.
For the same reason I would agree that Str is probably the best stat for a monk.
Sean
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You do realize that monks in Pathfinder use full BAB if the flurry, right? They get a -2 from full BAB when flurrying
Yes; which means they're about -6 to -10 down from real STR-mongering barbarians and fighters with Improved Weapon Focus and Weapon Training. Good luck getting Power Attack iteratives to even land on anything whose AC is supposed to represent a challenge to a PC tank's attack-bonus.
(Ironically, taking Panther freebies with a two-hander is about the best use of PA because the freebies are all at highest attack bonus. Making a full-attack Flurry with PA is otherwise dumb, and especially so if you're gambling limited daily uses of save-forcing abilities.)
The most powerful monk abilities don't involve damaging you, but making you fail saving-throws or make you suck some way (e.g., five trip attempts). If you're stunned, you're done if you're a BBEM relying on multi-attack with rends, improved grab, follow-ups, etc. The higher your level, the worse you're nerfed if stunned, so the greater portion of your combat value is gained from iteratives and tack-on effects.
Show me a suboptimal monk and I'll show you a player attempting to use the class like a barbarian in a "DPR-Challenge" type toe-to-toe slugfest.
Monks trying to base themselves off maneuvers are even more MAD than the ones who stick to damage and such. Now you need Str, Dex, Con, Int(13+) and Wis.
Mike's trip monks might work in my game, where I give the monk +10 point buy to make up for the weakness and horrible item-dependency to even get close to a real combatant. But ultimately, my experience is that anything the monk can do, the fighter can do better. And what he cannot do, the casters can fix, like mobility, multiple attacks, saves etc.
The fighter/barbarian/etc is better at combat maneuvers because he has full BAB and prioritize the stat that makes them even better. Takes a while to get the critical feats, but there is a pile of effects you can slap onto your attacks, and the DC is higher. Also want to point out a flaw in Mike's assessment; monsters with multiple attacks, rend and so on usually have amazing fort saves, well over 50% chance to save, making the stun rather unreliable.
As for the AC, as long as the fighter is not denied a basic set of full-plate, his AC should be over 20 already at lv2-3. The monk has to jump through some serious attribute/feat hoops to get there, or have a BFF wizard/sorc with mage armor spells to spare. And said fighter soon moves as effortlessly in armor as most people do in loose-fitting clothes.
In 3.5 you had some dirty tricks that made the monk better. As soon as you got the right combo of multi/prestige classes to base stuff off touch attacks, get absurd bonuses to damage (greater mighty wallop got abused like there was no tomorrow) and so on. But that was never because the MONK was badass.
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I seriously don't get the whole "Monks have lousy AC" trope...I have yet to see any game, home brew 25pt buy or PFS or anything where the monk didn't have the highest AC by at least 4, and often 6-10 AC points, and that was before the ki channeling for an additional 4.
I'm playing a monk in PFS, a Qingong monk. I have the highest AC, I am taking the whole Panther Style/Combat Expertise/Mobility route, and I basically move every turn and riposte, then position myself for additional AoO when the bbeg is all in a bad place. Those turns I don't move, and I channel ki to get the extra attack on flurrying, plus I Elemantal Fist, I dish out 3d8+3d6+6(str bonus) and typically the BBEG is toast. I also have a lousy CMB compared to a maneuver master, but +10 isnt anything to sneeze at, and often its enough to grapple a mook for questioning, or the BBEG if he needs to be alive. I've leapt across 30 foot chasms to tie up opponents, I've stayed behind and protected the squishy healers/mages, I've blocked a door from hordes of itty bitty mooks to allow our team to regroup, heal and escape. I also have some useful skill choices. Oh, and the errant trap that goes off?? My evasion and high saves means I'm usually around to pour healing potions down peoples throats. Everyone else held from spells? High will save...I'm still kicking butt.
No other class can do all that, at the same level. Do I chop things in half like the barbarian?? nope, but I do about 5 bajillion other things he cant.
Fair trade off, IMHO.
I seriously don't get the whole "Monks have lousy AC" trope...I have yet to see any game, home brew 25pt buy or PFS or anything where the monk didn't have the highest AC by at least 4, and often 6-10 AC points, and that was before the ki channeling for an additional 4.
I'd like to see this explained. How does a monk have better AC than a fighter in level-appropriate armor, barring cherry-picking of items on the monk's part, and not on the fighter's.
Lets set the level arbitrarily at 8:
Fighter totally unoptimized for AC: Fullplate+2, Dex13. Leaves him with 22. Hardly GOOD, but this guy is likely doing around 50-70 damage per round, since all his stats, money and feats are going towards hurting someone real bad. Hits reliably and hard.
Fighter considering AC: Fullplate+2, Maguffin+1, Dex14+2, Dodge. Suddenly 26. A more balanced build.
Fighter optimized for AC: Fullplate+2, Shield+2, Two maguffins+1, dodge, combat expertise and shield focus, Dex14+2. AC32 unless his shield is a tower shield. Not gonna hit too hard or reliably.
How does a monk beat this by at least 4?
Point buy is the main enemy of the monk. Lower the point buy, worse off the monk. And also some people forget they can pick up weapons and use them. People are so focused on unarmed damage they forget that a monk can pick up a weapon to overcome DR or add bonuses and basically two-weapon fight without taking any of the feats or needing to take a feat to get maximum strength bonus with all attacks as well as full power atack with all attacks. They are in essence the best two-weapon fighters in the game. With all the new archetypes and monk weapons, they are now the only class that can two-weapon fight with a two-handed weapon getting 1.5 strength and 1.5 Power Attack with between 7 and 9 attacks a round at maximum level.
People tend to make limited monks solely focused on unarmed fighting. That can leave you limited. But if you are smart and pick up a magic monk weapon, you can do a lot of damage and bypass DR. You won't be a fighter or barbarian as far as combat monsters go, but you'll do decent damage with a ton of defensive abilities. It's not a bad deal if you build the monk without being so focused on unarmed fighting.
Now you can make a Sohei archer monk that can get 11 arrow attacks a round. That can be really sick.
This is about the worst advice I can imagine for a class which specializes in making lots of attacks at lowered attack bonuses -- chisel those bonuses even more by taking "feats than make you miss", and you make yourself useless.
Yeah, so the Monk gets full BAB while flurrying, so, I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
If you recall, my recommendation was for Strength to be the highest priority attribute, so, it's not like you need to make up for a bad attack stat, either. If you pump Strength and power attack, you will attack more often and for more damage (or, at worst, the same damage for fewer feats) than any TWF build out there.
What a monk should be taking are feat-chains which increase the number of attacks, or make the ones he has more destructive without compromising attack bonus. E.g., the Panther Style chain in conjunction with Ki>AC and Mobility and Combat Reflexes and high movement lets you run through an entire enemy formation and dare each of them to take a swing at you.
Here's the problem--there's no MMO-style taunt or "aggro-check" system in place. If the monk is not dangerous, there is absolutely no reason for them to hit him as he runs by.
Offering an AoO is not forcing them to take one. Sure, rampaging Bears might, but intelligent foes? No, I don't think they'll bother with the guy running around not hitting them.
Say you're a 10th level monk with that going, and in the first round you just double-move through the enemy's ranks letting them all take futile swipes against your stoopid high AC while Panther Parrying Stunning Fists. You can literally end combats before they even really begin. -- And if they don't end, Medusa's Wrath totally Fs anything which failed a save last turn.
Alternatively, you double move through their ranks, the first guy whiffs and gets stunned, and the rest of them ignore you and charge your squishies instead.
Yes; which means they're about -6 to -10 down from real STR-mongering barbarians and fighters with Improved Weapon Focus and Weapon Training. Good luck getting Power Attack iteratives to even land on anything whose AC is supposed to represent a challenge to a PC tank's attack-bonus.
TWFers face the same -2 penalty Monks face, and after Medusa's Wrath, nothing is pouring out as many attacks at their highest bonus (especially without needing feats to compensate for off-hand damage penalties) as a Monk. When you're throwing out that many swings, they don't all need to hit--that's why people calculate damage per round. Power Attack is an extremely advantageous hit-for-damage trade that is practically always worth it from a dpr perspective, especially with so very many attacks to benefit from it.
The higher your level, the worse you're nerfed if stunned, so the greater portion of your combat value is gained from iteratives and tack-on effects.
I don't think I follow here--because stunning is awesome, you get more value out of iteratives than...hitting harder with those same iteratives?
Show me a suboptimal monk and I'll show you a player attempting to use the class like a barbarian in a "DPR-Challenge" type toe-to-toe slugfest.
That's kind of a weird thing to show me--why not comment on the actual monk I showed you? You know the suboptimal one that dumped Strength, didn't take Power Attack, and expected all enemies they face to stupidly waste AoOs on someone they can't hit but that can stun them in response to a miss.
The Monk is awesome. They can deal lots of damage and tank acceptably well. But they are full of trap options that lots of players fall into. Not hitting as hard as possible, for example, is a big trap people fall into.
I seriously don't get the whole "Monks have lousy AC" trope...I have yet to see any game, home brew 25pt buy or PFS or anything where the monk didn't have the highest AC by at least 4, and often 6-10 AC points, and that was before the ki channeling for an additional 4.
In my games in the past, in which I eliminated magic items and PC spells completely, and used custom made "super elite" arrays (18, 17, 16, 14, 13, 12), Monks consistently had the best AC.
In typical games, where magic armor exists and is easy to get, Monks suffer and end up with AC similar to Fighters, but at much higher cost.
Think about it this way:
Full Plate can give +9 AC unenchanted. To equal that, a Monk needs a combined Wisdom and Dex bonus of +9! That's a 20 and an 18 most likely! If they're short on stats, they need 5 additional levels of monk for each missing point of bonus. Hooray, your Dex/Wis 16 Monk is level 15--now you're finally equal to the Fighter in basic Plate.
Oh, but wait, the Fighter gets to increase the Maximum Dex bonus of his Plate. Plus, there's Mithril Plate. Ok, well, no worries, you can get Bracers of Armor, right? Er, except for the same price you got those Bracers of Armor, the Fighter is just enchanting his Plate for similar bonuses. Sorry, it's just not a game Monks win.
I'm playing a monk in PFS, a Qingong monk. I have the highest AC, I am taking the whole Panther Style/Combat Expertise/Mobility route, and I basically move every turn and riposte, then position myself for additional AoO when the bbeg is all in a bad place.
I'm sorry, but do PFS games all involve mindless opponents? Why do so many enemies apparently keep swinging at the non-threat they can't hit but that can hit back?
Those turns I don't move, and I channel ki to get the extra attack on flurrying, plus I Elemantal Fist, I dish out 3d8+3d6+6(str bonus) and typically the BBEG is toast.
I just want to point out that 3d8+3d6+6 only averages 30 damage. If you had taken an 18 Strength and Power Attack instead, you'd be dealing an extra 6 damage a swing, for a roughly 60% damage increase.
I also have a lousy CMB compared to a maneuver master, but +10 isnt anything to sneeze at, and often its enough to grapple a mook for questioning, or the BBEG if he needs to be alive.
I have no idea what level your character is, but if you went for Strength over Dex, you could either have a much better CMB or save a feat on it (a feat you could have used on Power Attack!).
I've leapt across 30 foot chasms to tie up opponents, I've stayed behind and protected the squishy healers/mages, I've blocked a door from hordes of itty bitty mooks to allow our team to regroup, heal and escape. I also have some useful skill choices. Oh, and the errant trap that goes off?? My evasion and high saves means I'm usually around to pour healing potions down peoples throats. Everyone else held from spells? High will save...I'm still kicking butt.
None of those things change if you prioritize Strength highest. Well, nothing except you'll deal more damage, which, you know, lets you protect people better.
No other class can do all that, at the same level. Do I chop things in half like the barbarian?? nope, but I do about 5 bajillion other things he cant.
I'm not really sure what else you can do that a Barbarian can't--don't you guys get the same number of skills per level? I know your Base saves are better, but the Barbarian is the undisputed King of saving vs. Magic. They don't get Evasion, but they do get Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense (though Smart Barbarians trade that for DR). Barbarians can even practically duplicate the effects of Elemental Fist while raging if they wanted.
Pretty much all you have over them is a better Wisdom. So, the Barbarian is exactly the sort of person you've got to compete with, actually. If he outdamages you by a mile, you're not as useful.
Of course, please, take everything I say in the context of optimizing your character. If you're not interested in that, if you just want to screw around and have fun with a walking martial arts trope, go for it with my blessing. I'm only talking about making them powerful.
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I've found Monks fun, but very VERY crunchy in fights. Over time if a Monk specializes in whatever dirty trick he uses to disrupt foes in a fight they turn into great combat support characters. Just not your front line tank or damage dealer.
They're just okay in those. No were near what I'd call a first choice is pure combat efficiency is what you are looking for.
Fun though if you know the full range of tricks they can develop. But playing a Monk is much like playing a Sorcerer. Specialize if you want to avoid pure MAD. You'll still get stung a bit either way, but it won't be so hard.
I could see them benefitting from a lof the same thought that went into Fixing the PF Paladin. Better stuns and less reliance on MAD for CMB/CMD would make them awesome.
I could see them benefitting from a lof the same thought that went into Fixing the PF Paladin. Better stuns and less reliance on MAD for CMB/CMD would make them awesome.
I really dont know the stat issues are as bad as they get made out to be. Monks benefit from more stats in more area than other classes (a 12 Dex and 16 Wis provide the same AC as 18 Dex for anyone else, for a very significant discount in point buy), and as long as you dont forget that its defeating the other guy that wins the fight (not increasing survivability beyond whats needed to allow that), IE "Focus on offense first" and focus on Strength first, I've not seen Monks be that much worse off than other classes.
I've been playing around with SAD monk concepts which mostly begin with 2 levels in the Sensei archetype. (I'm currently fond of Sensei 8 / Ninja X)
I wonder why the Sensei is never mentioned as a decent monk archetype, does the loss of the other abilities detract from its allure?
prototype00
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This is about the worst advice I can imagine for a class which specializes in making lots of attacks at lowered attack bonuses -- chisel those bonuses even more by taking "feats than make you miss", and you make yourself useless.Yeah, so the Monk gets full BAB while flurrying, so, I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
If you recall, my recommendation was for Strength to be the highest priority attribute, so, it's not like you need to make up for a bad attack stat, either. If you pump Strength and power attack, you will attack more often and for more damage (or, at worst, the same damage for fewer feats) than any TWF build out there.
1) Raising STR does not increase ("more often") the number of attacks. If you PA, you will hit less often.
2) What do you pump strength at the expense of? If it's dexterity, kiss your AC goodbye. If it's WIS, kiss your AC and your Ki and your save DCs goodbye. (Don't say INT/CON/CHA, because those are already "set" as dump stats or minimum-desired.)
STR is arguably the second-least necessary attribute for a monk when an Agile amulet + Weapon Finesse can, in exchange for one feat and some gold, alleviate him of MAD and pump his AC. You need STR for maneuvers...if you're playing a maneuver specialist. Otherwise, not at all except for weight limits....oh, right: monk -- no armor weighing our ass down.
-- If you want to Power Attack to the moon while having lousy AC, make a bloody barbarian and don't fool around.
But they do attack him. At least once anyway, and that's often all it takes.What a monk should be taking are feat-chains which increase the number of attacks, or make the ones he has more destructive without compromising attack bonus. E.g., the Panther Style chain in conjunction with Ki>AC and Mobility and Combat Reflexes and high movement lets you run through an entire enemy formation and dare each of them to take a swing at you.Here's the problem--there's no MMO-style taunt or "aggro-check" system in place. If the monk is not dangerous, there is absolutely no reason for them to hit him as he runs by. Offering an AoO is not forcing them to take one. Sure, rampaging Bears might, but intelligent foes? No, I don't think they'll bother with the guy running around not hitting them.
Say you're a 10th level monk with that going, and in the first round you just double-move through the enemy's ranks letting them all take futile swipes against your stoopid high AC while Panther Parrying Stunning Fists. You can literally end combats before they even really begin. -- And if they don't end, Medusa's Wrath totally Fs anything which failed a save last turn.Alternatively, you double move through their ranks, the first guy whiffs and gets stunned, and the rest of them ignore you and charge your squishies instead.
So....now they're moving through my threat?
<robs hands; rolls dice>
Combat Reflexes > Stand Still ...they ain't goin' anywhere.
Mike: Personally, I think it is a pretty huge flaw to do next to no damage while waiting for lv8-10ish to afford a 20k amulet. Assuming there are local magi-mart, and then that the one you hit up carries it.
Combat Reflexes and Stand Still are viable enough tactics, if you are large (which hamstrings a dex build), or otherwise have reach. Not often you have to move through threatened squares. And your CMB is not THAT impressive if you tank strength. Not going to stop warriors or brute type monsters.
@Kamelguru
Why do you pay 20K for an agile amulet? They cost 5K.
@Mike Schneider
For unarmed STR monks you might be right, but a monk can very easily be a STR monk with a temple sword which can hold in two hand when flurring and get the -1/+3 PA ratio (although he won't be able to get the extra STR).
Oh yeah, forgot you can stick a special enchantment in those without the base +1. So, you just wait until lv6-7 then, with magi-mart etc.
Still a big chunk of the game where you go around and barely manage to be a nuisance.
I prefer the Greatsword monk of Gorum myself for a fun str monk just go Sohei and go with a lower wis and let your armor make up for it.
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THe monks main problem is that his two key advantages cancel each other out.
He is a highly mobile fighter.
His flurry of blows requires that he holds still.
I think they should be useable in conjunction, maybe a monk can give itself pounce with a ki point?
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Fighters are now the most accurate with their weapon familiarity, and since they rely on less stats, are much easier to (bad word...ok I'll say it...) OPTIMIZE. Anytime you optimize, you always leave MAD classes out in the rain...
However, a charm against that hard-hitting fighter with the low WILL save can easily cause a TPK for the GM...
I personally love my Dwarven Hungry Ghost monk who uses a temple sword and Beliel's bite...though he can flurry a lot of misses...
The Improved Trip while effective against many things, is not effective against the untrippable, and that makes it a trap.
Why do both need to be used at the same time?
Because a single attack where the enemy is standing doesn't do a lot of damage and a flurry of blows where the enemy isn't standing does no damage at all.
So? You move to where you need to be and next round start flurrying. If the enemy keeps moving, you find a way to stop that movement.
Its nice in theory i don't see it working in practice. Either the party is a bunch of kill stealing cheese monkeys and they see the person you hurt with your first attack is vulnerable and then kill him... or they realize that the lack of a wound system in D&D means that you concentrate the damage, see that a target is wounded and finish him off. either way you need to find a new target next round. For a monk stopping the target from moving away usually means you forgo your hopes of doing andy damage that round as you trip people.
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Seriously, someone needs to make a bodhisattva Avatar, and use it to answer all these monk threads with zen koans.
Monks are not a full melee class - the only class you should be comparing a monk to is a rogue, not a fighter.
-3/4 BAB.
-Skills centered on movement and dealing with people.
-A conditional attack that does atypical amounts of damage: the Flurry of Blows (this is the one that fools everyone into thinking they're some kind of fighter class, when it should be looked at like the rogues sneak attack and treated as such).
-A host of abilities designed to help deliver singular attacks backed by save-or-suck and save-or-lose abilities OR to help them get to where allies can be helped to do the most effective attacks possible (repositioning enemies for spells to take effect, flanking with rogues, getting the potion of healing to a badly injured ally, etc.).
-medium AC (similar to the bard, summoner, alchemist, and other 3/4 combatants who are not full casters).
-Abilities and saves that make them less likely to be affected by powers and abilities that would render other characters helpless or out of the fight.This is touched upon by their role explanation in the Core book:
Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.Yet everyone tries to play monks like they are fighters, rather than what they are designed to be played as - a 3/4 BAB non-full-caster who has a set of abilities designed to hinder enemies...
Yeah, and the Ninja is better than the Monk too. So this isn't helping.
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@Mike Schneider: For unarmed STR monks you might be right, but a monk can very easily be a STR monk with a temple sword which can hold in two hand when flurring and get the -1/+3 PA ratio (although he won't be able to get the extra STR).
If a monk could acquire proficiency in temple sword (or other worthy extended-threat weapon) without EWP, it'd be advantageous. Otherwise, you're just trading Weapon Finesse for EWP, and gaining one point of extra damage per BAB4 increment off Power Attack versus Piranha Strike -- and all at the expense of armor-class and ranged attack-bonus, because the only remaining stat to "rob" to pay for increased strength is...dexterity.
Given that, unlike clerics, druids, bards and UMD'ing rogues, a monk cannot easily heal himself, he should strive for best-AC-in-game. Monks who forfeit AC for STR end up the same way human rogues who do it in PFS end up: dead by Tier 5-6. If you're going to be a STR monk, then go Spring Attack to keep out of the fray (annoying because it'll be 6th-level before you get it), or be a martial-artist/barbarian half-orc.
I seriously don't get the whole "Monks have lousy AC" trope...I have yet to see any game, home brew 25pt buy or PFS or anything where the monk didn't have the highest AC by at least 4, and often 6-10 AC points, and that was before the ki channeling for an additional 4.I'd like to see this explained. How does a monk have better AC than a fighter in level-appropriate armor, barring cherry-picking of items on the monk's part, and not on the fighter's.
Lets set the level arbitrarily at 8:
Fighter totally unoptimized for AC: Fullplate+2, Dex13. Leaves him with 22. Hardly GOOD, but this guy is likely doing around 50-70 damage per round, since all his stats, money and feats are going towards hurting someone real bad. Hits reliably and hard.
Fighter considering AC: Fullplate+2, Maguffin+1, Dex14+2, Dodge. Suddenly 26. A more balanced build.
Fighter optimized for AC: Fullplate+2, Shield+2, Two maguffins+1, dodge, combat expertise and shield focus, Dex14+2. AC32 unless his shield is a tower shield. Not gonna hit too hard or reliably.
How does a monk beat this by at least 4?
A 32? At level 8?
Wisdom 18 Dex 14 starting (actually wisdom 16+2 racial) Str 14.
So that's 16 starting off. We'll go crane style cause I like it level 8 I can have all three on any monk, which means I'm +4 (ranks in acrobatics) more for only a -1 on my attacks, means I'm up to a 20 already.
So all I need is a +12.
+2 from an item on wisdom gives a +1
+2 to wisdom from leveling up gives another +1
Dodge gives a +1
Bracers of Armor gives +2
Ring for a +2
Monk for +2
That puts us to 29... want to bet I can find at least 7 more points somewhere? Especially since I haven't even optimized the monk yet.
Monks are not a full melee class - the only class you should be comparing a monk to is a rogue, not a fighter.
Monks are obviously better than Rogues--every class is better than a Rogue. There's nothing to be proud of in being favorably compared to a Rogue.
Monks are not really a skill class--they only get 4+. That's the same as Barbarians. Are Barbarians a skill class?
If a monk could acquire proficiency in temple sword (or other worthy extended-threat weapon) without EWP, it'd be advantageous. Otherwise, you're just trading Weapon Finesse for EWP, and gaining one point of extra damage per BAB4 increment off Power Attack versus Piranha Strike -- and all at the expense of armor-class and ranged attack-bonus, because the only remaining stat to "rob" to pay for increased strength is...dexterity.
One problem is that you are relying entirely on the availability of an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. This one single item makes or breaks your entire character.
Without an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, you're screwed and way behind in everything. Sorry, not all games will have one of these available--I'd wager not even most of them would.
And besides that, there should be strategies for how to build your character without a single specific item. If you were restricted from using the Agile enchantment, how would you build an effective monk?
If you're going to be a STR monk, then go Spring Attack to keep out of the fray (annoying because it'll be 6th-level before you get it), or be a martial-artist/barbarian half-orc.
Spring Attack defeats the purpose of the monk, too.
Look, unfortunately, the mechanics of the monk don't line up with the flavor. They are supposed to evoke Wuxia movies, but the mechanics support moving as little as possible. The monk's biggest strength, flurry of blows, relies on mostly staying still, and so the most successful monks (without Agile Amulets of Mighty Fists) rely on a Str>Wis>Dex/Con build--they take a beating, but they dish out a bigger one. It's not what people usually want when they go to make a monk, but it's the most effective way.
I prefer a more balanced approach when building a monk, showing here:
How, he is certainly not optimized, but he can make a valued member of a party. Sure, he isn't as great a fighter as a fighter, but he can hold his own against any reasonable threat. He was built with core rulebooks only, so no style feats or any archetypes.
Don't forget, arena style matchups, ala the DPR olympics, are not the standard of play. The monk should be one member of a 3-6 person party, and in that environment he makes everyone elses job easier.
At 8th level, the AC is a solid 23, but that can be bumped to 27 by spending a point of ki. However, after 8th level, he really takes off. Especially in CMB and CMD (66 at 20th level!).
Master Arminas
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THe monks main problem is that his two key advantages cancel each other out.
He is a highly mobile fighter.
His flurry of blows requires that he holds still.
You're forgetting his third advantage-- combat maneuvers.
If, at the beginning of your round, there's no enemy adjacent to you for you to flurry on, you use your move action to put yourself next to one and your standard action to grapple or trip it so it doesn't go anywhere on its turn. Next round, flurry away. Combat Reflexes/Stand Still could provide extra insurance to keep your enemies in your threat range, but I'd rather not spend two feats on doing that when I could spend one feat on Weapon Proficiency: Net, or maybe Lunge.
As for the monk's accuracy, don't forget to flank! Increased movement speed makes it easier for you to get around to the other side of the enemy than it is for the rogue or fighter, and the flanking bonus cancels out the flurry penalty.
In answer to your question Eragar, no. Here is what an optimized monk might look like at 20th level:
Ability Scores: Str 18 (24); Dex 18 (24); Con 18 (24); Int 14; Wis 18 (24); Cha 10
The starting 1st level ability scores were Str 14 (16, human); Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14; Wis 14; and Cha 10: a 25-point buy.
Hit Points: 243
Normal: +29/+24/+19 (2d10+12)
Flurry: +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (2d10+12)
Power Attack: -6 on attack rolls (2d10+24)
CMB: +34 (+36 Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
CMD: 70 (72 vs. Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
CMD w/Ki: 74 (76 vs. Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 90 feet
AC: 44 (36 touch; 36 flat-footed)
AC w/Barkskin: 49 (36 touch; 41 flat-footed)
AC w/Ki: 48 (40 touch; 40 flat-footed)
AC w/Ki & Barkskin: 53 (40 touch; 45 flat-footed)
Saves: +26/+26/+26
Feats: Blind-Fight; Combat Reflexes; Defensive Combat Training; Deflect Arrows; Dodge; Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike); Improved Disarm; Improved Grapple; Improved Initiative; Improved Sunder; Improved Trip; Improved Unarmed Strike; Medusa's Wrath; Mobility; Nimble Moves; Power Attack; Spring Attack; Stunning Fist (DC 27; 21/day); Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +32 (20 ranks); Climb +21 (5 ranks); Craft (Carpentry) +15 (10 ranks); Escape Artist +27 (10 ranks); Intimidate +18 (10 ranks); Knowledge (History) +17 (10 ranks); Knowledge (Religion) +17 (10 ranks); Perception +32 (20 ranks); Perform (Dance) +22 (15 ranks); Ride +17 (5 ranks); Sense Motive +32 (20 ranks); Stealth +32 (20 ranks); Swim +21 (5 ranks)
Magic Items: Amulet of Mighty Fists +5; Belt of Physical Perfection +6; Winged Boots; Bracers of Armor +8; Circlet of Persuasion; Cloak of Resistance +5; Gloves of Swimming and Climbing; Goggles of Night; Handy Haversack; Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6; Dusty Rose Ioun Stone; Pale Green Ioun Stone; 20 x Potion of Barkskin +5 (2 hours per potion); Ring of Freedom of Movement; Ring of Protection +5; Monk's Robe; Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone); Vest of Escape
On-hand Wealth: 10,550 gp
Inherent Bonuses (included above): +2 Str; +2 Dex; +3 Con; +2 Wis
In answer to your question Eragar, no. Here is what an optimized monk might look like at 20th level:
Ability Scores: Str 18 (24); Dex 18 (24); Con 18 (24); Int 14; Wis 18 (24); Cha 10
The starting 1st level ability scores were Str 14 (16, human); Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14; Wis 14; and Cha 10: a 25-point buy.
Hit Points: 243
Normal: +29/+24/+19 (2d10+12)
Flurry: +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (2d10+12)
Power Attack: -6 on attack rolls (2d10+24)CMB: +34 (+36 Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
CMD: 70 (72 vs. Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
CMD w/Ki: 74 (76 vs. Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)Initiative: +11
Speed: 90 feetAC: 44 (36 touch; 36 flat-footed)
AC w/Barkskin: 49 (36 touch; 41 flat-footed)
AC w/Ki: 48 (40 touch; 40 flat-footed)
AC w/Ki & Barkskin: 53 (40 touch; 45 flat-footed)Saves: +26/+26/+26
Feats: Blind-Fight; Combat Reflexes; Defensive Combat Training; Deflect Arrows; Dodge; Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike); Improved Disarm; Improved Grapple; Improved Initiative; Improved Sunder; Improved Trip; Improved Unarmed Strike; Medusa's Wrath; Mobility; Nimble Moves; Power Attack; Spring Attack; Stunning Fist (DC 27; 21/day); Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +32 (20 ranks); Climb +21 (5 ranks); Craft (Carpentry) +15 (10 ranks); Escape Artist +27 (10 ranks); Intimidate +18 (10 ranks); Knowledge (History) +17 (10 ranks); Knowledge (Religion) +17 (10 ranks); Perception +32 (20 ranks); Perform (Dance) +22 (15 ranks); Ride +17 (5 ranks); Sense Motive +32 (20 ranks); Stealth +32 (20 ranks); Swim +21 (5 ranks)
Magic Items: Amulet of Mighty Fists +5; Belt of Physical Perfection +6; Winged Boots; Bracers of Armor +8; Circlet of Persuasion; Cloak of Resistance +5; Gloves of Swimming and Climbing; Goggles of Night; Handy Haversack; Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6; Dusty Rose Ioun Stone; Pale Green Ioun Stone; 20 x Potion of Barkskin +5 (2 hours per potion); Ring of Freedom of Movement; Ring of Protection +5; Monk's Robe; Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone);...
I hate to say it, but your power attack is only going to a -4 because your BAB is only a 15 for the purpose of power attack. It even says so in the very next sentence.
For comparison, I'll toss up a Kensai magus, shortly because my comp has a tendency posts.
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In answer to your question Eragar, no. Here is what an optimized monk might look like at 20th level:
Ability Scores: Str 18 (24); Dex 18 (24); Con 18 (24); Int 14; Wis 18 (24); Cha 10
*Anything* that makes it to 20th level from 1st level is by definition optimized. (Having four 18s and two 24s doesn't hurt either. <laff>)
"I have 9,000 in every stat! I am MORE optimized!
@Mike Schneider
Every monk is proficient with the temple sword.
Why do monks need to be the one to kill the enemy, Hungry Ghost archetype not withstanding?
Because its hard to meat shield when you're not a threat. And while trips and disarms are great against medium sized humanoids the tactic becomes less effective as you level and the enormous monsters, centipedes with a +80 cmd against trip, and creatures not using weapons.
You're forgetting his third advantage-- combat maneuvers.THe monks main problem is that his two key advantages cancel each other out.
He is a highly mobile fighter.
His flurry of blows requires that he holds still.
I'm not forgetting them, I simply find them of dubious value and usefulness far too often.
I'm not forgetting them, I simply find them of dubious value and usefulness far too often.
Individually, this is true. Luckily, the mobility and maneuverability of the monk allows them to place themselves where the one or two maneuvers that apply to the current situation (grappling/blinding a caster, etc) WILL be useful.
The entire "monks are weak" thing is a fallacy. In the last couple of campaigns, the monk was the most powerful character in the party (core rulebook build). The only one who came close to the monk in damage and AC was the paladin when using smite. The guy playing the monk has retired the characters because he saw that no one else was having fun. I've seen some badly built monks and badly run monks. It just depends on the player.
I don't think the Monk was powerful, but that the rest of the party was badly run.
I'm sure there was a rule being misapplied like Vital Strike can't be used when spring attack/charge/etc.
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The entire "monks are weak" thing is a fallacy. In the last couple of campaigns, the monk was the most powerful character in the party (core rulebook build). The only one who came close to the monk in damage and AC was the paladin when using smite. The guy playing the monk has retired the characters because he saw that no one else was having fun. I've seen some badly built monks and badly run monks. It just depends on the player.
I would be interested to see the build of this vanilla monk and of his fellow players...
In answer to your question Eragar, no. Here is what an optimized monk might look like at 20th level:
Ability Scores: Str 18 (24); Dex 18 (24); Con 18 (24); Int 14; Wis 18 (24); Cha 10
*Anything* that makes it to 20th level from 1st level is by definition optimized. (Having four 18s and two 24s doesn't hurt either. <laff>)
"I have 9,000 in every stat! I am MORE optimized!
Four 18s (24s with magic enhancements) at 20th level. The character started with Str 14 (+2 for human = 16), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10. Like I said, a 25-point buy. You want to make it a 20-point buy? Make Int a 12 and Cha an 8. A 15-point buy? Int 9 and Cha 7. Only affects the skills; doesn't change any of the combat abilities or numbers.
Final numbers on ability scores are as follows:
Str 18/24 (14 base, +2 human, +2 inherent, +6 enhancement)
Dex 18/24 (14 base, +2 level, +2 inherent, +6 enhancement)
Con 18/24 (14 base, +1 level, +3 inherent, +6 enhancement)
Wis 18/24 (14 base, +2 level, +2 inherent, +6 enhancement)
Perfectly legit for a 20th level monk, and included in the wealth expenditure (247,500 gp for the inherent bonuses).
Yes, monks are MAD. Yes, those inherent bonuses cost an arm and a leg. But why wouldn't a monk of high enough level spend his gold in this manner? That still leaves him with enough to purchase the magic items shown in the list above, and even have a little bit of gold left over.
Master Arminas
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My monk in PFS killed 3 mooks and captured 2 more with Combat Maneuvers, and then seriously damaged the BBEG while the knife rogue finished him off. We had no fighter/barb/ranger 4/4 bab guy, so it was up to me and the rogue.
We pwned.
Monks faster ground speed made sure I got to the baddies first, panther style allowed for ripostes when they did take AoO (and for those that are all "why are your bad guys dumb and attacking the nonthreat" let me just point out when the AP says they fight to the death, or if they are undead, or even if the GM doesn't metagame an enemy will attack a seemingly "open" target, such as one who is presenting himself as a target by moving through threatened squares. Once its shown I'll repeatedly hit back when that happens, and that my high AC makes me hard to hit an intelligent opponent will not attempt to take the AoO...maybe. But by then, I've shown myself to be a "threat".)and certain Combat Maneuvers made sure that the bad guys didnt move past me or run away.
I seriously think that the people who bad mouth monks havent played one.
My monk is fun to play, hes not a wimp, and he kills tons of stuff. He has the best AC in our game, he has more movement than anyone in our game, he has the best Saves in our game, he has more feats than anyone in our game, he has killed as many or more than the other characters at the table, and frankly has kept the party from TPK more than once.
Maybe I don't have as much AC as a fully optimized fighter or whatever, but I am the best at the table and I have fun playing him.
Win.
Excellent. Now that you've read my title and the vast majority of you are ready to prove me wrong, here's what I need help with.
I honestly can't see why monks are always pounded on as being so bad. In the group I play with (PFS)I'm easily the second best character we have (Granted, there is only one other seventh level; but the other people I'm comparing to are level five or six. It isn't that much a difference). Assuming the rest of you are not wrong abut monks there are two possible explanations:
1) The other characters have all been built poorly.
2) I have a skewed perception on what is actually 'good.'Either way, if someone could spend the time to point out all the things I've done wrong with my character and some of the things I could improve on in the future, it would be quite appreciated.
Half-orc monk 7
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +22
AC 20, touch 20, flat-footed 17 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 Wis, +3 monk)
hp 54
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
Speed 50 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +8 (2d6+3) or unarmed strike flurry of blows +8/+8/+3 (2d6+3)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, stunning fist (8/day, DC 17, fatigued)
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +10 (+12 to trip); CMD 26
Feats Catch-Off Guard, Throw Anything, Dodge, Improved unarmed Strike, Skill Focus (Perception), Improved initiative, Improved Trip, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes
Skills Acrobatics +12 (+27 jump), Climb +8, Escape Artist +6, Knowledge (History) +3, Knowledge (Religion) +3, Perception +22, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +6, Survival +10, Swim +6
Languages Common, Orc, Celestial
SQ (normal monk stuff), ki pool (8 points ((Vow of Truth)))
Combat Gear Eyes of the Eagle, Monk's Robe, Headband of Wisdom (+2), (various potions, oils, and flasks)Sorry if that's overly...
Now that ultimate combat and the APG are out I give them a lot more slack, but the core monk gets no love from me. The APG only makes the archer monk viable, but your mileage will vary by GM.
The entire "monks are weak" thing is a fallacy. In the last couple of campaigns, the monk was the most powerful character in the party (core rulebook build). The only one who came close to the monk in damage and AC was the paladin when using smite. The guy playing the monk has retired the characters because he saw that no one else was having fun. I've seen some badly built monks and badly run monks. It just depends on the player.I would be interested to see the build of this vanilla monk and of his fellow players...
Same here, there has to be a mistake either on the part of the monk or the way all the other characters are built.