Spoilers within.
I ran this battle the other night and we only did the battle in the big vats room and it took a solid 3.5 hours for a 7 player group. I wanted to get my fellow DMs thoughts on what I did wrong, how I could speed things up, etc.
The encounter is very tactically oriented, taking place over 3 stories - the cellar level, the ground level, and the 2nd floor (for lack of a better term).
Cellar Level: 7 vats touch the floor here. Two ladders go from cellar level to the top of two vats / planks. 8 (if I remember correctly) mongrelmen (3 of which are supervisors and aggressive) work / patrol this level.
Ground Level: The PCs (likely) come in on this level. A network of 10" planks go between the vats at vat-top level. One vat has a ladder from this level to the 2nd floor.
2nd Floor Level: 3 doors go about to 3 different rooms - most noteably, the rooms of Vorkstag and Grine.
The module is written such that the intention is the PCs will be moving about on these planks, making Acrobatics checks, losing their dex bonus, and therefore being sneak attacked by Grine with his Throwing Axes. Also Vorkstag is supposed to be tossing bombs in the intention of knocking the players off - hopefully into the vats.
My PCs just walked in on that level, shouted that they had a warrant (they did), and the mongrelmen moved to attack (the supervisors). At this point I had them climb the ladders from cellar to ground and move about the planks, trying to get to the PCs. The PCs (those who could fit in the room) just plinked them off with slings and bows - very easily. The mongrelmen have to move at 1/2 speed on the planks, while making Acrobatics checks (twice if they get hit). It was like shooting fish in a barrel. Not sure the mongrelmen would have done anything differently.
So then I didn't know what to do so I didn't bring out V&G, I let the combat subside. The PCs came into the room, dropped a rope to cellar level and came down there. They walked around, the worker mongrelmen ignored them and when they seemed in a vulnerable position I have Grine come out and hell "What the hell is wrong with you!? GET THEM!" and then all the mongrel's attacked.
But, we're looking at 14hp monsters which my PCs 1 shotted for the most part - they even have terrible AC.
Then V&G were both out, standing up there on level 2 throwing bombs and hand axes. There's some interesting problems here.
1: The handaxe is relatively short distance. So G has to be close, else he takes negatives every range increment (which in this case is 10 feet - every 10 feet is a -2). I suspect that's why the statblock had +9 to hit for the handaxes - to make up for that.
2: The bombs aren't REALLY that deadly. V's wand is pretty pathetic as well.
3: Basically the only thing V&G have going for them is the Spider Climb and V's invisibility - but that doesn't make him deadly, just hard to take down.
My PCs sat in the middle of the room ranging them with Magic Missile and bow/slings. I frankly didn't know what to do. I had V retreat (to get a skin), come back out looking different while quaffing a potion (to go invisible) and then spider climb down and out the cellar-level door toward the zombie pool room. I figure my goal there being to have him escape and reappear in a later module (as per several other threads on these forums).
I had Grine retreat and come back w/ all three of his familiars (who are basically wimps unless their weak poison hits).
Even Grine's channel negative energy is terrible - he has 8 Charisma. The DC to save was freaking 9. Yawn. For 4th level characters? Maybe I was expecting something more epic to go along with the epic terrain for this battle.
And on top of that, let's talk about the terrain.
Why are there 10" planks between vats? Would the workers really traverse these things? How contrived. Wouldn't they just put up a ladder to get to the top of a vat to do any work on it (perhaps, stirring), that was needed? Even if planks were right, why 10"? I realize why, it's to make it interesting for an Acrobatics check, but amazingly implausible imo.
As such, there was no way my PCs were going to walk on those - which seemed like the entire intention of the module (get the PCs on the planks!).
You might say they need to get to the planks briefly to get to the 2nd floor (as there is a ladder that runs from ground floor to 2nd floor so one would have to get to ground floor via the planks for something from cellar level). However, the PCs just pulled out the Rope of Climbing from module 1 and had it slide up the wall to the 2nd floor, and up they went.
So I'm looking for advise here. I need more experience as a DM. So what did or would some of you more seasoned DMs have done in this situation?
Should I have upped the CR (remember, the encounter was 3.5hours already) substantially?
By the way, when shooting from cellar level to 2nd floor level, do I need to take into account the vertical distance? I didn't feel like busting out the Pythagorian Theorem to calculate hypotenuses of triangles in this combat (again, encounter was already 3.5 hours).
I guess in the end it was interesting. The players felt it was an interesting tactical encounter where they could hide behind 15foot tall vats and snipe off things. They felt very smart but as a DM trying to make it challenging it certainly wasn't.
So tell me where I failed and how I can improve and learn.
Thanks. :/
Funny, we just ran that at the weekend too and it took... 3.5 hours also. Longest fight we've had in years. But my players loved it.
First observation: you have 7 players right, so you've presumably been upping the encounters to reflect this. What changes did you make? For instance, I upped both V+G's hitpoints, upped V's damage, gave Grine a hand-crossbow for when his poisoned axes ran out, and moved to 20 mongrel men. Yes, 20! But I had some of them fight each other, as per the module, and spread them out between the two floors, and had them act pretty stupidly. As you say, they are really weak and do need strength in numbers if they are to do anything. The fight is also supposed to be the climax to the first part of the module, and should be a challenge for 5th level PCs. If your party are going in at 4th level (as mine did), it should be HARD.
Other points: what buffs did you run? Both V+G can spider climb (though V will likely fall off when he is hit), darkness and blur are powerful for that 20% miss chance, and fire breath can be nasty. V is also immune to magic missile once he runs Shield. V+G will also likely have higher ground bonus unless the PCs close on them. V's wand is actually pretty good - cuts straight through PC's with armour, and can crit. Remember also that V's wand and his bombs have a damage over time element. V has a huge acrobatics and can run around the platforms like a ninja. For the rope of climbing, are you remembering that it is a full round action to retrieve it from a backpack, another standard action to activate it, and then it only moves at 10' per round. It's 15 feet per floor so it's going to take it 3 rounds to move up to the second floor, then another round (at least) to climb it. During this time the rope is vulnerable to attacks. My PCs pretty much see the rope of climbing as an out of combat item for this reason.
Ultimately: This fight is a test of both the PCs movement, ability to manage terrain and also ranged attacks with V+G's acrobatics, spider climb and sneakiness playing a big part. If your PCs have that in spades, they will find it easy. If not, then it is hard. With 7 PCs, your party is likely a lot more balanced and perhaps handles this better. A four or five person party that focuses on melee will be stretched.
I doubt you did fail. This was a climax battle. It's supposed to be long, epic, tactical, and draining. Your players were impressed, had fun, and enjoyed the challenge and the battle. In fact I'd say you did pretty well.
As for what I did, well, my situation was very different. I'm running CC as a solo campaign. The PCs, all two of them, couldn't damage the golem in the courtyard worth a damn so they went in through the windows in the stables. And then found no way into the actual chymic works. So they decided to make their own door right through the wood-frame wall between the carriage house and the production floor.
Grine and the mongrelmen were waiting, weapons drawn, right where the axe broke through the wall. Vorstag was out at the time.
It was brutal. Grine tossed all of his hand axes while keeping behind the mongrelmen for cover. My PCs marked him as the leader so the eidolon and the Inquisitor blocked the hole while the Summoner sniped through whatever opening she could find. The Inquisitor almost dropped but finally Grine went down.
And then all hell broke loose. Chaos reigned as the mongrelmen revolted and started attacking their overseers. The PCs ducked down and hid long enough to heal somewhat before wading through the chaos to loot the pla-- I mean, search for evidence.
They never actually faced Vorstag. But they stole his cabinet and he sure as hell made life difficult for them in return. They never even realized there was a basement.
Thanks for the comments so far. Paul, you point out several things I didn't do. As much prepping and planning that I had done, I didn't do enough.
I'll point out what the PCs liked the best was when G tried to spider climb down the wall and out the way the PCs came in on ground level - they trapped him on cellar level (he was running across the bottom trying to get there). When this happened, V, invisible at this time, opened the door towards the zombies, left, and closed it. G then shouted "Don't leave me here you <expletive>!" The bard then rolled a nat 20 on an Diplomacy check telling G to "surrender or die". I figured G was a survivalist and, especially after seeing his buddy leave him, would rather surrender than die.
It went great. Now they have a prisoner and we have a V on the loose. I suspect they'll haul Grine before the court in the morning and make him confess. They might also try and get Grine to stand for the crimes. My ninja (L-E alignment) already told me offline that she intends to interrogate Grine (torture) so that should be fun to see if the other PCs let her.
ANMistress you are probably right - they enjoyed it. I guess I just have a problem seeing all the flaws in what I coulda - shoulda - woulda after the fact. Monday morning quarterbacking, if you will.
Yeah, it sounds like you still had a blast. From reading these forums it seems like a lot of Vorstags manage to escape, so you can tell your PCs at the end of the adventure that this is quite common and they will probably feel better.
The problem with capturing V or G (which my PCs did also) is - what possible motive would they have for confessing? Presumably they will be thrown on the Punishing Man irrespective of their plea, just due to the heinousness of their crimes (and the fact the townsfolk need to see somebody burn). They have no morals and no desire for redemption or absolution. Grine in fact worships the god of murder, so he's pretty devout about his actions.
I guess we'll leave that as a problem for your PCs to solve. If they do manage a confession... tell us how.
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My group of 6 PCs ended up climbing the tower and entering from the "backdoor" which of course tips off Grine via his Homonculi. That being said I had V+G out among the vats themselves.
Grine was equipped with a Ring of the Darkhidden (3.5 MIC) so he was invisibile within the darkness spell he plopped in the middle of the vats on the "ground" level. Vorkstag was stationed underneath the 2nd floor catwalk so the PCs could see him until they climbed down.
The Mongrelfolk were nothing but speedbumps, but they were meant to draw the PCs out into the vats which I did by having them spread out on the 2nd floor catwalks (2), the front door, and on the ground floor.
Grines darkness really broke the battlefield up as only the half the party had darkvision (orc, half-orc, dhampir) while the half-elf, elf, and human needed to stay on the outskirts of the spell.
The lightin in the works was laid out like so, normal light on the cellar floor (from the fires beneath the vats), dim light everywhere else, and dark within Grines spell. It took our group a good 3 hours as well.
This was a great battle. I had 5 players. All hell broke loose when the party's alchemist threw a firebomb into the first room off of the courtyard ---- the one filled with crates of alchemists fire --- ya. KABOOM ! That brought V out to the patio to toss a few bombs on the fighters still dealing with the golem hound.
So - both grine and vorstag laid in wait inside and then threw everything at my PC's all at once. I added 4 more Mong.Menz as well. It was a tough fight and my players loved it. This was the first real battle that they could sink their teeth into - they were sick of fighting ghosts!
My Vorstag made an escape, and the party dropped Grine into negs, tied him up then dropped heals on him so as to drag him into the courtyard.
Oh - and there was NO WAY any of my players were getting on the planks between the vats. They saw death in that move from along way off.
So as I said my PCs have captured Grine. Any suggestions on what he does at this point?
They have bound his hands and gagged him. Two of the PCs are stationed with him at all times. They intend to finish clearing out the Chymic works and then take him back to jail where he will stand trial in the morning.
I was thinking he has a large Sleight of Hand bonus. Could he sneak something into one of the PCs pockets that would make the PC culpable somehow? Maybe then in court, Grine would say something like "Check in <PC's> pocket! I think you'll find the answer you are looking for!"
That seems along the lines of Grine. He might also try and appeal to one of the PCs to let him go - maybe through a whisper or a good Diplomacy? I could put a safe in the building that Grine gives them the combination to if let free. I don't think the party as a whole would let him go, but perhaps appealing to one of the players and making him role play what his character would do in that situation would be very good . . . hmmm... any thoughts?
I just can't see Grine sitting on trial and confessing. If he does that, the townsfolk will just toss him in the burning man, release the beast, and be done with it. Perhaps that is a good ending for my group, it's not a BAD ending, I just can't see Grine doing that. He's a worm, a poisoner, a thief and murderer - he's not a full of himself madman, a devout follower of a faith might yell "Do what you will, Norgorber waits for me in the afterlife!" or something to that effect.
I'd welcome some ideas here.
Thanks!
Completely agree with your assessment of Grine Ullapool. He doesn't want to die a "hero's death" by cursing the people of the town and remaining defiant as the flames rise... that's not him.
Some suggestions
- I like the sleight of hand idea
- He tries to slip his bonds
- He memorises non-somatic spells to help him
- He tries to blame everything on V, saying he was held captive and only performed the butchery. There isn't actually a lot of direct evidence against Grime so he might have a hope here.
- He combines this with a plea bargain, saying he can locate V, knows some of his hideouts, or some contacts of his (ie, essentially some true things).
- He suggests that there may be other skin stealers that only he can help unmask, or offers to repent and do penance (ie, essentially false things)
The problem is that his Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate are poor and he knows this. A physical solution (Acrobatics, Sleight, Disguise, Stealth) would be the best but what opportunities are there? He's not particularly smart either; V was clearly the brains behind the operation and G's the sidekick.
If all else fails, and he goes on the stand, claims it wasn't him, and is found guilty and sentenced to burn, he might just break down in sobbing tears, begging for mercy, saying he doesn't want to die, genuinely afraid and in terror at his fate. That might be a suitable dark ending in itself. The PC's get "justice" and watch the murderer burn but he is sobbing and begging and pleading for mercy all the way to the pyre.
Great suggestions. So we ran this last night and it went really well. As suspected my PCs wouldn't step away from Grine. Two of my players went as far as spending the entire 4 hour session doing nothing but drinking homebrew (OOC of course) and repeatedly saying things like "I check his bonds again." "I cast detect magic again and stare intently at Grine until it runs out."
So I basically DMed to the other 5 people.
It went well though -here's what happened. They found the skins, they bagged them all up and the Chelish LE Ninja went all intimidating on Grine. Stuffed him in the coffin in one room and told him he better talk or else. I went with the same thing you suggested, I played Grine off as not knowing anything about the body stealing stuff.
Grine played it like "look man, I thought you were here about the illegal poisons I make. That's what I do, Vorkstag runs the other stuff." Each time the PCs found something else (like the Drow head jar and other stuff in that room) Grine would act surprised. As you said though, everyone was seeing past his bluffs easily with Sense Motives.
When they finally got to the zombie room the PCs were content to just look at it, shake their heads, and go to leave. Then I had the two zombie jujus stand up and act totally normal. It really freaked the party out. They went something like this:
"Hang on. You're saying Vorkstag is gone? Look I need those vials." They then went on a junkie-like rant and plea for help. Wanting to help find V because he's the only one who can save them. One even tried to get the other killed so he could get all the vials. He pulled one of the PCs off to the side and started telling him things to look for in the other juju that meant he was about to attack - better to justkill him now and give me all the vials. It went very well.
My intention now is completely to play it up like Vorkstag makes a plea to help the law find Vorkstag in exchange for his life. If the PCs really want him burned, I might let that happen. If G doesn't get killed, I may have the townsfolk rage still and want to burn the Beast even after the trial's shown that it was V&G (or, as G explains it - it was all V).
I wish I could figure out something interesting to do with his sleight of hand though. His hands are currently bound behind his back.