I don't so much think it's impossible as questionably plausible - the game will certainly support the ability to render numerous quantities of individual units, be they players, NPCs, or what have you. However, not ever object that exists in the world is rendered in the moments where no one is near it - they exist more in a numerical data set of 'when someone gets close enough, we make it show up, otherwise put it on the back burner'. I have a nagging suspicion that NPCs of the commoner sort will be handled the same way - unless one NEEDS to be visible, it will exist purely as a statistical indicator, a numeric unit of measure. Generating an army of the dead/outsiders/mind-controlled peons/savage humanoids would tap into resources that may or may not be easily accessed or utilized at any given moment - while certainly capable of rendering large numbers at once, what sort of performance hit will everything else take in the interim?
Truthfully I hope there will be a pleasant surprise in the form of 'O HAI U GAIZ CAN HAZ LEGION!' and then a demo will show players pulling out a tidal wave of animated corpses or things from beyond the planes. I also expect that would be something saved for the higher end of things, gamewise, but only because of how imbalanced that could become.
Goblinworks Founder
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Still doesn't sound much different than having an NPC army of humanoids. Which is what will have to happen if player run castles and nations are actually going to be in the game.
I think you'll find the intention for Castle owners and Nations are for them to field their own army from players, not NPCs.
A few of us have been toying with ideas of a leadership skill that might let you have two or three henchmen to help with crafting or mining or to provide a city watch type thing, but these are merely members of the community throwing around "what if" scenarios.
I would be interested in continuing to play a character should I die and be animated with some remnants of my soul. If you ever decide that you want to be a necromancer you can count on my rotten skull for the army :P
Goblin Squad Member
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Dawntide (a MMORPG made by a TINY development team) currently allows necromancers to summon a minion or 2 which are programmed to simply follow and support their master.
It would not be difficult or time consuming to implement this feature given the animations, models and pathing will already have been created for other aspects of the game.
Armies however? Difficult. Who deserves to raise an army anyway?
I think you'll find the intention for Castle owners and Nations are for them to field their own army from players, not NPCs.A few of us have been toying with ideas of a leadership skill that might let you have two or three henchmen to help with crafting or mining or to provide a city watch type thing, but these are merely members of the community throwing around "what if" scenarios.
I would be interested in continuing to play a character should I die and be animated with some remnants of my soul. If you ever decide that you want to be a necromancer you can count on my rotten skull for the army :P
Lol. I'll keep that in mind.
Still, I'm not sure how any but the largest of guilds will be able to field an army if all the soldiers are going to be players.
Edit: Hit submit too soon.
What I mean is, if Guilds are going to run nations and field armies etc then PFO is going to need a huge, and I mean HUGE, player base.
My theory on this, and mind that this is just a theory, is that initially you won't be able to build an army of commoners, because by default they'll be commoners (forgive the tautology a moment); however, as garrisons are build and similar things are implemented for purposes of enabling the town to somewhat defend against wild things overall, those involved with establishing the garrisons and other martially inclined buildings will be able to spend their allotment of reputation/money on having some to all of the commoners THEY have access to for purposes of putting them into positions of being warriors, experts, et al. Perhaps certain quest rewards will allow for promoting some of said guards to having actual PC class levels, making them able and qualified above and beyond the basic NPC warriors, but essentially it comes down to committing some of the populace resources to combat purposes...which reduces the numbers available for performing other functions about town. One would have to balance things so that you can have commoners working, while still building up to a standing army, and for the most part instead of one person controlling the whole of the military forces, coordination between players who have spent their commoners on military building would still need to coordinate them, serving as differing levels of command units.
I could see some quests born of this intention that result in taking a few of your burgeoning troops on sweeping patrols of the land so they gain experience, being able to set up checkpoints so that those who survive their 'shifts' gain Exp. and level up, being able to practice one's skills against the guards instead of having to use a training dummy (and by extension giving them some practice against things far above their normal capabilities to handle, so that you can assess their weaknesses when other players decide they want to start abusing the townspeople and guards), giving an increase in loyalty if one is fair with them or a decrease if one abuses them blatantly and humiliates them outright.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are major limits on what you can do in an MMO venue due to the fact that every option you might want requires coding and and a nontrivial amount of coding at that. You can not expect more than a very limited subset of paper and dice options in any conceivable mmorg.
I ask because, as GM, I have had players want to do exactly that and since PFO is being touted as "take on any role you like", that may be a role some may want.
The flip side to that is that if you build things right, you have the building blocks which effectively assemble themselves into whatever you need. Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft are great examples of this. Given a relatively small number of building blocks, people have created some pretty amazing stuff. There's also examples from the DF development log, where logic bit A and logic bit B interacted in entirely unexpected ways to produce a perfectly logical, yet very bizzare result. It's called emergent behavior.
This comes from a dev post where the developer ran DF's world-gen logic, and then he examined the history of an important individual from the world's history. It comes from when he was working on ordinary citizens becoming suspicious of immortal creatures (like vampires). Keep in mind that pretty much every sentance here is an entirely discrete element which takes the current state of the creature/world (not it's history) as input, and (randomly) determines what happens next. For instance, he got married because there's some random chance of a person of a given age/status/whatever getting married.
The main point of the quote isn't to demonstrate the "correct" behavior, but the one line at the end - exactly the same behavior, combined with an entirely unrelated behavior, produced something bizarre and unexpected.
Imbo Trussedringed was born in the year 8. At the tender age of 23, he became the high priest of Kas, the god of storms and lightning, in the capital Calmgroove after the first high priest was burned up in dragon fire. A few years later, he got married and over the next many years fathered six children. Aside from a run-in with a troll attacking the city, times were uneventful, until the year 53. Profaning his own temple, Kas cursed him to prowl the night in search of blood. After eight years of fairly unrestrained murder in the capital, he fled in the year 63 to the village of Brimstools, where he bled one person before moving on with settlers to eight different villages, working as a fishery worker or a scout, scores of victims left in his wake.Finally he arrived in Scarrub in the year 103, having outlived his wife and all of his children. Over the next two decades he killed a dozen people. Villagers began to become suspicious at his lack of aging, but he enticed them with the promise of immortality to join the Sect of Control, a cult he had founded to cover up his misdeeds. This allowed him to last until the year 137, when his agelessness and forty murders made village life untenable. With the support of his followers, he challenged the law-giver Melbe Leaguemuscle to a duel in the capital city, winning easily. People recognized him as the former high priest and were shocked at his 129 years of life, but before it could come to anything he laid down a series of oppressive edicts, and for the next 15 years ruled as a tyrant, having his dinner brought to him from all of the towns and hamlets of the Realm of Names. He only partook every week or two, but by the end, over the century of the curse, seven hundred seventeen people were dead. The dragon only ever got fifty.
In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.
In fact, the more any game (MMO or not) codes in to allow a player to do, the less they're actually able to do. The greatest freedom comes from when the player can do very little directly, but that very little includes manipulating objects, and the objects can interact.
In WoW, nothing interacts unless the player clicks on it, or it's specifically coded into the NPCs. There's no concept of a crate just sitting there which can be moved around. So players can only do the things Blizzard codes characters to be able to do. Damage (as an easy example) is boiled down to a formula: Push this button, the monster takes this much damage (A -> B). More actions? More buttons & more single-step processes. Bugs tend to be of the "This button doesn't work right" nature.
HL2, Skyrim and similar games have pretty complete physics engines, where objects can interact with other objects. So while the characters are coded to be able to do X, Y, and Z, doing X and Y together lets you do something like build a tower of boxes on a rooftop, then kill a NPC by pushing it over. The damage in this case is: Character bumps an object, it moves (A -> B). Moving objects that are unsupported fall (B -> C). Falling objects do damage to whatever they land on based on weight and speed (C -> D). So now you have a four-step chain to dealing damage, and any given link of it can be replaced by something else or added to. (I assume weapon damage is calculated differently for these types of games) Similarly, a recent bug was "Corpses show up to weddings, because A) Every person in town shows up a wedding, and B) Corpses are still considered people."
Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft don't have the same level of physics engine, and even fewer ways of interacting with the world. In DF, in fact, you can't affect the world directly at all. But they have even more components, so you can do something like build a network of tunnels and water gates such that when a creature steps on a pressure plate, a floodgate opens, pushing that creature down a narrow tunnel, smashing him into the back wall (which also happens to be above a pressure plate, which repeats the process down a new tunnel, etc). Similarly, weapon damage is based on "The object being swung has these properties, and the swinger has these properties, which combine this way" which leads to things like having your pants ripped off in a grapple and then being beaten to death by them. Bugs in this case are even more convoluted - for a time a simple river carp was the most dangerous creature in the game, because A) Swimming successfully raises your swimming skill. B) Carp, as fish, are always swimming, and always successfully. C) Raising a skill raises your attributes. D) Raising your strength makes you do more damage. E) A + B + C = After a few months, carp have maxed out every stat they have. F) D + E = When a carp bites you, with a fairly low damage bite with an enormous amount of strength behind it, it hurts (and you're pulled into the river, where you bleed to death while trying to get out of the river and being interrupted because there's a deadly carp attacking you...)
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Basically, what this very long rant says is: The more you code interactions instead of options, the more options the players have. So by coding in "Here's how you can raise and control undead" and "Here's what undead can do" and "here's what an army can do" and "here's how you build an army", you can combine them to produce "I raise an army of undead and attack the nearest town" just as easily as "I raise a single undead and go out to meet the attacking army of goblins". As opposed to trying to code in logic for "I push this button to raise an undead army and attack a town".
Code interactions instead of options, and you won't have to code every single possiblity - they'll just happen.
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Interesting stuff
I had always wondered why crap were so darn tough.
What you say I find also a truism in the PnP version of RPG's, the more codified the rules become (3.5e/PF I'm looking at you) the less freedom the plays have in their interactions with the game world as they (meaning players/GM's) fall into the trap of thinking actions can only be done using the palette provided by the rules.
I really like the idea of a game world (sandbox) that develops because of actions players take BUT follow on consequences are not under the direct players control. Sort of do X, but Z later comes back to bite you on the backside (aka DF).
Not sure how the concept of DF = LOSE = FUN therefore FUN = LOSE will go down.
S.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting stuffI had always wondered why crap were so darn tough.
I simplified it somewhat, but you can read the whole story here.
I really like the idea of a game world (sandbox) that develops because of actions players take BUT follow on consequences are not under the direct players control. Sort of do X, but Z later comes back to bite you on the backside (aka DF).
I like that idea too - I'm running my Kingmaker game that way. Every so often, I'll say that X prior decision they made leads to Y happening now, or keeps Y from happening now. Like "Well, you've asked everyone in the area about the creepy tower, but you never did get a chance to ask the crazy hermit before you slaughtered him." Or "Well, you passed a law about presenting complaints to you before speaking in public, and now the townsfolk have taken to throwing wadded up notes about whatever they're unhappy about at you whenever you walk through your city." (I haven't actually done that one yet, but I'm thinking of something along those lines, but less absurd).
Not sure how the concept of DF = LOSE = FUN therefore FUN = LOSE will go down.
Probably not well, but the consequence of doing X doesn't have to be "You lose". Just "You now have to suffer, but you can recover eventually."
I assume it would be difficult. A problem on City of Villains was the mastermind class where their main ability is to summon "pets" and command them to fight for them. They also gained betted upgrades for them and the max for the average mastermind pool was 5, though you could get more through other powers.
Eitherway, they would cause a lot of lag if you were in a group of 5 or them due to the amount of commmands that are going on at once and all the graphics loading too. It will be interesting to see if someone could make a neromancer and raise a small undead army to attack a city, say Nex or something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I assume it would be difficult. A problem on City of Villains was the mastermind class where their main ability is to summon "pets" and command them to fight for them. They also gained betted upgrades for them and the max for the average mastermind pool was 5, though you could get more through other powers.
Eitherway, they would cause a lot of lag if you were in a group of 5 or them due to the amount of commmands that are going on at once and all the graphics loading too. It will be interesting to see if someone could make a neromancer and raise a small undead army to attack a city, say Nex or something.
Depends how it's implemented. WOW handles 25 player characters + pets + lots of NPCs being fought (and all the spell effects that go along with) without too much trouble. There's certainly some people who can't do 25-man raids because their computers can't handle it, but most people don't have an issue. And army-scale battles might be handled differently than one-on-one combat, so that they don't need to handle that many moving pieces.
I don’t know how this translates to an MMO, but Diablo 2 was a single-person game that allowed players to interact via battle.net. Now, one of the playable characters was a Necromancer – which could summon a number of minions based on their level. It worked, but, not well. If anyone summoned more than ten skeletons then things started slowing down. At 20 skeletons, the server began to crash.
Bandwidth and internet speeds have gotten better since when D2 was released, but, I can see very real internet speed and coding problems when summoning an X army.
However, playing a necromancer in an MMO would be SWEET!! No doubt about that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is being done in here and from what little beta testing I have done it seems to work very well. Necromancers are definitely ignored more than they should be in fantasy MMORPGs.
♠ Join the Pathfinder Online community in IRC | Server: irc.stratics.com (6667) Channel: #pfo | We'll see you there! ♠
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something to think about, capping Undead at a certain level depends upon how strong they are. Twenty 'level 5' Skeletons makes a good honour-guard for a level 15 Necromancer. They are quite weak and drop easily, but can slow a hostile NPC down long enough for the Necromancer to drop/drain them. Against another PC ... not very long at all.
An army of Undead would be an awesome concept for a 'cabal' of Necromancers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Initially I was wary of this suggestion...but upon further reflection I think it makes sense IF...and that is a huge IF, the necromancer were to put in the time and effort to build this army.
A castle built by a guild should stay in game until destroyed, even if it is deserted (although I hope things degrade based upon the material...or at minimum plants can grow over it). Likewise, constructs such as golems should continue to exist if their creators vanish. They should continue to fulfill the last command given them. Undead could be functionally similar to golems.
Undead as NPCs with the ability to do more than follow commands would be interesting, especially if you were able to make them follow orders from others, including other NPC undead (allowing one to build this undead NPC army in which the PC issues commands that are passed down...but they have to choose and build the coordination carefully and explicitly).
This said, the necromancer should have to go find the corpses, find the materials necessary for each individual casting, etc...and this is on top of the huge amount of time it should take to perfect the necromancy arts. Maybe it would not take a master to raise the undead, but less than masters should raise less than great undead. Oh, and permanent constructs should not despawn. You build undead, you find a place to put them...
Not to mention, some undead need to feed...necromancers who do not handle these simple tasks could find their creations more..."primitive" rules override their commands. And their army would need to be outfitted, this requires gold and contacts...
Like every other permanent construction in game, I hope it is possible, but not easy...The bigger the "splash", the more time and effort involved.
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I assume it would be difficult. A problem on City of Villains was the mastermind class where their main ability is to summon "pets" and command them to fight for them.
Both in CoV Beta and after launch, I was part of an all Robotics Masterminds group (with Robotics / Force Field) being the most common mix, and, wow, on eight-man missions, with each of us having all five robots out (and multiples of us, and each of our two Support Bots spamming defensive force bubbles on everyone individually...), it did indeed get laggy.
Dark Ages of Camelot, IIRC, had the first 'multiple pets at a time' class, with the Bonedancer (one skeletal champion and three subpets, either bone archers/warriors, bone magi/debuffers or bone buffers/healers), although Age of Conan appears to take the cake for 'most active permanent pets at once' with Necromancers able to have eight-ish Mutilators out at the same time.
IF PCs can found cities or kingdoms, then there's really no reason why the NPCs manning the walls and selling the wares and trolling the streets can't be undead, instead of being humans or elves or gnomes or whatever. It's just another skin over the NPC fried-rat-on-a-stick vendor or the NPC 'town guard.'
IF there are going to be war scenarios, with armies of 'commoners,' there's, again, no reason why one dude's army of 'commoners' can't be zombies or skeletons.
Lotta ifs, really. Who knows.
I'll be thrilled if there's a pet class, at all. Pet classes are a staple of MMOs, since EverQuest, at least, but it wasn't until 3.5, with the permanant Druid / Ranger companions, that it really started hitting D&D/tabletop. (The random bizarre menagerie of Rangers or '10-100 men-at-arms' one got as a 9th level Fighter, back in 1st edition, notwithstanding.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the same time, in a previous discussion about mounts being unspawnable (permanent), I think it was Ryan who expressed concern about too many entities in the environment. My impression is that if "pets" of these sorts are possible, they will be spawn on use only...and probably tied to the PC that spawned them.
It is sad because allowing stuff like this is player made content that they (the devs) do not have to produce. Imagine how many good characters like paladins or even neutrals like druids would enjoy raiding the strongholds of these necromancers trying to develop undead armies. But, admittedly this would put strain on the server if everyone did it.
Maybe every character could have a limit of one "npc" that follows them around, like a pet or henchman. NPCs that guard buildings would have a much higher cap. And you could skin them however you want--people, undead, goblins, wolves, etc.
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I've been enjoying SWTOR the last week or so and the single most inovative aspect of design in that game is the companions with whom you experience the game. For those who don't wish to try it yourself every single class has a group of companions that hang out with them and at any time they can choose one to travel with them on the planets.
Every class is a pet class. At least outside of full groups. Its more akin to everyone taking the leadership feat or Diablo II minions than more traditional MMO pet implementation.
I don't think lag will be much of a problem these days. I remember back in the day, games could grind to a halt with too many units running around BUT these days, with much better graphics cards, better and faster connections, even WoW handles large groups of units relatively smoothly.
And WoW is designed so you DON'T need the best hardware to run it.
I'd agree with you but I have a decently higher end machine, and I've got guildmates in WoW who chunk out doing 25-man LFR.
I've got biggish dreams, mostly in the form of creating a bardic diplomancer and inciter of Peoples' Rebellions among the masses, but I'm withholding expectations of being able to gain control of masses, living or otherwise, until there's been some manner of announcement.