Play tested, works well, a decent but not huge improvement to DPR that places him within +/-5 DPR of a 2H-Fighter Archetype, and a perfect correction to his AC problem. Simply add this as a level 1 class feature for all starting Monks.
MARTIAL ARTS:
Add your Wisdom to your CMB and CMD. Use your CMB as your Melee Attack modifier. Use CMD as your AC. When making unarmed strikes, treat your target as flat-footed unless it has Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, or Improved Unarmed Strike.
The gist is that you fight in an unconventional way, you're not blocking with a weapon, more so you're moving inside their reach, wrist locking, stealing their inertia, etc. You don't wear armor, you don't fight with weapons... you shouldn't be using the conventional AC and BaB modifiers because everything you do is some sort of Combat Maneuver; even your way of dealing damage. So this is thematically appropriate as well as balanced.
Post thoughts if you have em.
--PC
My Rogue is dipping Monk for always-on sneak attacking.
That was my immediate first thought as well. I have to admit that I kind of like the simplicity of "use CMD as AC," though.
Does Kirthfinder analysis have any relevance here?
All respect due to the GM's right to house rule, but I worry when I see you guys chime in on people's questions about Pathfinder fixes.
Isn't there a pile of differences in the background of your game, sometimes including other house rules that directly affect the performance in question?
I'm not saying you shouldn't speak about your experience where it's relevant, but a little disclaimer might be appropriate...
Does Kirthfinder analysis have any relevance here?
No -- in this case we're speaking Pathfinderese. TOZ and I are plyglots.
I feel like Kirthfinder has fixed the monk, but that has no relevance to this thread.
This change also undermines the combat advantages conferred to small characters.
Does Kirthfinder analysis have any relevance here?Dude. These houserules let a rogue dip monk to gain 1d6 unarmed attacks that gain sneak attack damage to every hit on non-monk, non-uncanny dodge opponents.
What does Kirthfinder have to do with that fact?
I took your rhetorical "my rogue is..." as literal. Sorry.
Sure thing, it does allow a rogue to dip and get consistent sneak damage. However, in actual play (did a bunch of arena-style playtesting), he's still doing significantly less damage than a natural attack barb, barely half of a wildshape druid, and I'm sure there are others that still outclass him. And yet he's worlds above where he was before the tweak. If this proves too much of an issue, just make this a 3rd level class feature.
Also, this makes the monk awesome all on his own. No reason to treat him like a flavor profile, he's now the main course :) But still not on par with the T1's.
I haven't read Kirthfinder's work in depth, though I love what I have seen. However, this was done for a monk in a campaign that's almost entirely run in standard rules. Little changes like this are rare.
What our Monk player has enjoyed about this change is that his AC is now 'good', he hits more often, and he's actually good at Combat Maneuvers ;) which is supposed to be the Monk's specialty.
We'll evaluate how this affects the traditional monk feats like Stunning Fist, Cockatrice Strike, and Medusa's Wrath and report back in bit :)
--PC
Any build with sneak attack just became ridiculously overpowered.
And, why not just allow them to use their Wis instead of Str for atk, cmb, and cmd? This will largely bring their cmb and atk bonuses to the same lvl but not make size or feats irrelevant. And with flurry of blows monks are essentially getting a full BAB (and thus adjusted cmb/cmd) anyway (albeit at a penalty for TWF).
Besides, adding your BAB to your AC in addition to your Dex, Wis and monk AC bumps is WAY overpowered. Your AC just effectively went up by one for 3 out of 4 your lvls without flurry and by one per lvl with flurry!
Forgive me, it would just be the static +1/lvl to your AC once you get Maneuver Training at lvl 3. NOTHING would be able to hit you!
10 base + 20 Maneuver Training + 3 Dex + 3 Wis + 4 Monk AC = 40 without ANY equipment or feats
In short, while I don't know who was playtesting this for you, if they were playing it by the rules as written they obviously weren't playing correctly because this, quite simply IS NOT BALANCED!!!
If I am missing anything, please let me know. Otherwise, I am open to discussion as to how to accomplish what you are trying to do without breaking the game by 3rd lvl.
I have very little experience with the monk class for Pathfinder; what, precisely, is their failing? If there is a pre-existing thread covering this, could one of you direct me to it?
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There are...a lot of them...
The Monk.
Your experiences with monks.
Monks and Age of Worms.
Monks need full BAB.
New Monk BandAid on Sucking Chest Wound.
Monks: A Treantmonk Guide.
Why is the Monk so fricking rad?
Why all the monk hate?
Monks. What is their role?
Why Monks? (Probably the ur example of why 3.5 monks were bad and why PF had to fix them.)
There are...a lot of them...
The Monk.
Your experiences with monks.
Monks and Age of Worms.
Monks need full BAB.
New Monk BandAid on Sucking Chest Wound.
Monks: A Treantmonk Guide.
Why is the Monk so fricking rad?
Why all the monk hate?
Monks. What is their role?Why Monks? (Probably the ur example of why 3.5 monks were bad and why PF had to fix them.)
Thanks, Toz. I'll return to this thread after I've done my reading, lol.
OK, in retrospect my first post on this thread was far too reactive and inflammatory. Please forgive me.
That said, I still do not believe this is balanced, and this is why:
a) The eternal flat-footedness of all your opponents now makes all your enemies easier to hit and also allows any rogue with this ability to sneak attack all day long, which is the same as being able to cast a one-target fireball multiple times in a round.
b) The CMB as your attack modifier is essentially unchanged except for the reliance on Wis instead of Str. Realize that whenever you flurry you calculate everything as if you have a full BAB, including CMB and CMD. The only thing that is really changing is that you are canceling out the effects of size on these values (the adjustments for any given size generally give an equivalent +/- to atk and to CMB/CMD). This isn;t a balance issue, but makes current rules hard to delegate, almost to the point of making them irrelevant.
C) And my biggest issue to boot, is using your CMD as your AC. Consider that since anything that affects AC also affects this stat you are now calculating your as :
AC = CMD = 10 + Bab + Str (now Wis) + Dex + Wis + Monk AC + misc equipment and feats (dodge bonuses, nat AC, deflection, etc.)
Note that Wis is counted twice here.
This means that, without any armor, feats, or equipment at all at 20th lvl your ac is calculated as follows for a monk with 16 Dex/Wis (far from an optimal build):
AC = 10 + 20 (effective BAB with Maneuver Training) + 3 Wis + 3 Dex + 5 Monk AC = 41
I even dropped the double Wis in that equation.
A 20th lvl fighter would have to have a strength bonus or other bonuses totaling +15 (for an effective strength score of 40) to hit them on anything but a 20 with a +5 weapon (this allows a hit on a 19 or 20). And while I'm not saying those don't exist in the form of feats, morale, circumstance, sacred, and other bonuses, they are rather difficult to get all at the same time and require a lot of planning and invenstment.
Now to compare that to a dextrous fighter wearing mithral piecemeal armor (Do-maru torso, scale arms and legs: +8 AC, +5 max Dex: calculated as per the rules in Ultimate Combat) and a heavy shield (+2 AC, no Dex cap), the only types of protection that a monk could not wear, and their AC (with maximized Dex and taking advantage of the +4 max dex from Armor Training) is calculated as:
AC = 10 + 8 armor AC + 2 shield AC + 9 Dex = 29
That's a 12 point difference. Even adding a +5 enhancement to both of these items only brings it to a 39 AC. And that character had to spend over 26k, get a controversial piece of armor approved by the DM, and have a Dex of 28 to manage it (far less than the 16 Dex/Wis of the monk).
Take away the piecemeal armor and the best you can do is with a mithral suit of full plate for a +9 AC, +6 max Dex which is two point lower still.
Besides, while it may cost a bit more to get a monk armor and shield AC bonuses they can be aquired via items like bracers of armor, a ring of shield, and a number of other items if the monk is willing to take some ranks in Use Magic Device.
I hope that explains my views clearly without being as inflammatory as my first post. Again, I apologize.
That is an interesting observation. I definitely didn't worry about how things looked at 20th level, because at that point all classes are 2nd rate to the T1s. I think for levels 1 - 10 the rules as we have written them should be fine. I did not mean for Wis to be added twice, that was redundant verbage on my part. I'll look over the core rules and restructure how I've worded it.
However, something else to consider is that the Monk loses access to all Armor slot gear as he can't wear any without losing his monk-y abilities. So is it not a fair trade off that he gains a great AC in lieu of losing all those powerful buffs? After all, he must recoup armor bonuses though the use of other item slots (wrists and rings as you've pointed out), which is basically a deeper tax against his ability to both deal damage and perform combat maneuvers. Something we took into consideration, and I think its a fair point :) You tell me.
As to the Rogue dipping monk for this benefit, please read my tangent opinion in the spoiler :)
As for the lost item slots, yes it is a shame. But consider this: The monk gets better SR than any armor, evasion and improved evasion, the ability to DDoor almost at will (another highly sought armor quality), and can not trump battlefield size via his speed, combined with the fact that he has not max Dex penalty and gains the same AC bonus as normal full plate with an 18 Wis at 20th lvl, and can still combine items (albeit at the +50% cost to the less expensive enhancement).
Add to this the fact that with flurry he ends up with the highest touch AC in the game, effectively has a full BAB, gets TWF, Imp. TWF, and Greater TWF for free, and can use his Ki pool to gain extra speed, additional attacks at his highest BAB, +4 dodge AC, and various other effects (especially depending upon archetype), and I feel the loss of two item slots is somewhat leveled.
The Rogue part is a bit trickier, though. You must realize that SA is, on average, dealing 35 dmg at 20th lvl (with a range from 10-60), without anything else, not even the weapon included. Now, few rogue go the route of maximizing their damage, but it is true that they have fewer options to do so via feats, inherent class buffs, etc. and get few of the same straight damage bonuses available to other striker classes, and their inherently lower BAB also means that they hit less often. Still, sneak attack can be powerful, even if it takes a lot of planning and some luck.
That said, allowing a rogue to SA all the time is powerful, especially if you treat all opponents as flat footed all the time (DPR scales more directly with AC than anything else, as that % to hit increase is an issue, at times possibly giving them better chances to hit than the fighter with a good BAB).
So while I did stress that fact to the point of hyperbole in in my first post, I still say that this is a big power up for rogues and something to be taken into account.
Still, sneak attack can be powerful, even if it takes a lot of planning and some luck.
The empirical data simply does not support this statement about rogues. Even when factoring in Sneak Attack damage into every strike, rogues fall well below the other melee striker classes. It only *seems* powerful. A Barbarian with natural attacks via Beast Totem will do more DPR without any special conditions (like what are pinned to Sneak Attacks), than any rogue build--even if he dips Monk for the benefit of this tweak.
Rogues have a lot of flavor, but like the Bard, aren't DPR super-stars.
But the topic at hand is the Monk, not the Rogue. Classes aren't designed with concern for how they will multi-class, so lets please save this rogue issue for a thread centered on multi-classing.
Add to this the fact that with flurry he ends up with the highest touch AC in the game
I'm not sure what sort of attacks the Monk can deliver via touch. Everything he does requires him to hit the full AC. This doesn't seem relevant, I apologize.
Anything that makes full attacks further outstrip standard action attacks promotes static slugfests.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Monks do not hit well enough right now. I am simply offering a fix to this specific problem in a way that keeps the Monk unique and interesting. As in, he doesn't wear armor, and doesn't use weapons, and yet is still someone you wouldn't want in your face. Compare this to the current core Monk, who does a very poor job at actually connecting attacks/combat maneuvers, and who is even worse at avoiding attacks (unjustifiably low AC).
As to the issue of static-slugfests, that is the DM's domain. A DM who lacks the creativity to make standing toe to toe with a baddie a risk, is probably one still learning to balance his encounters. Again, this point seems irrelevant to what I have posted, as it is a play style issue, not a rules issue.
...and various other effects (especially depending upon archetype), and I feel the loss of two item slots is somewhat leveled.
I feel that this argument is wrong, as every other melee class has a higher AC and does greater DPR than the Monk (even factoring in his Ki-powers), and they still have full gear sets. I genuinely feel that this is a design oversight, some bad remnant from 3.x that didn't strike the Paizo team as 'off'.
--PC
Classes aren't designed with concern for how they will multi-class,
So that's why the ranger is still as front-loaded a dip as it was back in 3rd edition? Stop talking through your hat. If you paid any attention back during the Pathfinder playtest, you would have noticed that the problems caused by synergistic level dips in various classes were, in fact, a serious concern in class design.
The Core Monk's Specific Problem: Very low DPR due to TWF-like mechanics and associated low To Hit. Unjustifiably low AC.
What does this fix provide: Improves DPR to 'average' and provides a great AC in lieu of losing his Armor Slot and Weapon Slot magical buffs.
Is this is best solution to the problem?: No, but it is a good one none the less.
Please be specific and share how you think this is broken. My group has been utilizing this fix for weeks now, and it has proven balanced in actual play. Not only that but doing a DPR analysis also proves that this fix places the monk in the average percentile (up from the below-average D- range of the core monk). His improved AC due to this change has removed the issue with him being a healing leach. A core monk takes far more damage for his level due to his failed AC mechanics than is justifiable, which drags down the healer's resources without due return. i.e. he can't hit, he can't trip (or effectively perform any other combat maneuver) and so effectively does nothing at all while in combat except take copious amounts of damage (while only having a D8 HD).
Underpowered class problems are a lot easier to live with than overpowered class problems.
This is a ridiculous statement, and is hyperbole. This does not break the class, it literally provides him with decent (but average) DPR, and a reasonable AC. You fail to see the merits. Your statement also proves that you have no interest in this thread, as you are fine with the Monk as is. I'm sorry, this fix is clearly not meant for your table. There's no reason for you to continue arguing with those of us who think oppositely. Please start your own thread and promote your ideas there in.
Monks have no weak saves and the highest touch AC in the game. They have evasion. They pick up immunities as they level. They start with the shared prerequisite for style feats and can get most of the other feat prerequisites as bonus feats. They are effectively 4 level casters with the quigong archetype.
All of this is true. But take, for example, the fact that the druid also gains these Immunities, and thanks to Wildshape, also gains evasion, pounce, grab, rake, and rend (the most powerful combat feats in the game). The druid has a much higher AC, casts 9th level spells, and deals superior DPR. Oh, and his self heals are superior, and he gets an animal companion, which by itself does more DPR and has a greater AC than the core monk. In essence, the monk is barely half of a druid, and again barely half of a druid's animal companion. And so compared to the Druid class, is barely worth a quarter of a druid in value.
That's just one class.
None of those things that you've listed were forgotten in our analysis of why the monk needed some tlc, and even possessing those things along with our fix... the monk is now 'average'. Oh, and he's still missing out on the most powerful and iconic magical buffs granted by armor slot and weapon slot items. Nothing in his class retinue makes up for this.
If you're still reading, please take a moment to compare the monk's kill-potential and then his survivability, not versus other classes, but versus CR appropriate monsters. You'll see that the monk does not carry his weight in a fight. Choosing not to do this is basically plugging your ears and humming loudly.
About my gaming group:
My group is mainly gameist > narrativist > simulationist. We notice when a class under-performs, run some numbers, and then play test solutions using the printed rules. If we can't find any viable solutions (and to point out that the Style feats are ridiculously circumstantial and do not make up for a lack of bread-and-butter combat mechanics) we homebrew, just like every other group.
This is a great solution, as it does not at all overpower the monk, it is a thematic and interesting play-style enhancement, and has actually made the monk more fun to play for our specific player.
And I do not believe that Paizo worried about multi-classing issues when they designed the core classes. Though this is speculation on my part, I'd be happy to start another thread or dig up some old threads and explore this. Yet it remains true that a class must be viable -- on its own -- irrespective of how it might then be dipped to break the game mechanics. If this is an issue at your table, please make this fix a level 3 or higher class ability. Problem solved. For us, level 1 is just fine.
--PC
So that's why the ranger is still as front-loaded a dip as it was back in 3rd edition? Stop talking through your hat. If you paid any attention back during the Pathfinder playtest, you would have noticed that the problems caused by synergistic level dips in various classes were, in fact, a serious concern in class design.
I would be disappointed with Paizo if the reason that the core Monk sucks so hard at combat is because he was too great a 'dip'. I guess that's what I'm really trying to say.
To elaborate: They cannot quash even a fraction of the game breaking combinations that players will pull out of the rules. I'm sure that they have made some adjustments, but they clearly did not eliminate dipping. Why would they anyhow? This is a play-style choice where you give up the end-cap ability of your Favored class which hurts in End Game, for a little power in the early levels.
So that's why the ranger is still as front-loaded a dip as it was back in 3rd edition?
There are still plenty of reasons to dip with plenty of other combinations. Nothing has changed in the gameist culture, as there are still abundant opportunities.
--PC
Paulcynic, there are a number of problems that the Core monk has. However, you solution of forcing all a monk's opponents to be flat-footed is an extremely radical change. Currently, one skill (Bluff) combined with one feat (Feint) let's a player do that to a single target. Your fix was elminate the need for the feat and the ability to use bluff to catch your opponent flat-footed: anyone who wanted to do that could take one level of monk.
I, for one, do not care for the idea of using CMB as BAB or CMD as AC. With a proper build, a monk can have a better AC than a fighter and if he hits less often and for less damage--so what? That is what fighters and barbarians do, my friend. Let them have that shtick.
The link below is to a redesign that I put together a while ago. I believe that it fixes most of the problems associated with the monk and makes them an extremely viable character class that is quite fun to play. I would more than welcome any comments you wish to make--or any suggestions.
the pathfinder monk as it should have been
Now, I am not telling you about my class revision (for my game) because I am just shamelessly putting in a plug: I am telling you so that you know and understand I am not a monk hater. And while I might disagree with how you have attempted to fix the problems, I applaud your efforts and commend you on the hard work you have put into the idea of improving our game. And finally, if it works in your local game, and your players are happy with it, then don't worry none about what the rest of us here say.
You have already gotten the approval of the only folks that matter: your players and your own self.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
Master Arminas
master arminas :) I had read your post a while back and enjoyed the changes to Flurry. Kudos, great idea, as it made him an excellent skirmisher. Your approach is very conservative, but effective and also plays along the class' theme.
I also think Kirthfinder has a great Monk revamp.
I agree that my approach is a radical change in thought; though its all within tolerance ;) We've run the numbers, instead of giving him a full BaB, we have made a good number of opponents flat-footed. This can be annoying to some few classes. However, keep in mind which classes are immune to this condition: Rogues, Barbs, and Monks.
Flat footed denies Dex to AC, which kills Dodge Bonuses to AC. Which classes are least affected by this? Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, and Wild-shape Druids as they are based on Strength and/or High AC armors, or Natural Armor bonuses in the druids case. This *might* make a difference depending on the player's choice to pump dex, or take the Dodge feat in character creation. But this is by no means a huge penalty, its *just right*.
I would say that the Ranger is most affected. Though the casters are affected, they have spells which grant Deflection and AC Enhancement bonuses, or can straight up cast Sanctuary, etc. So if the Monk plays his cards right, or gets lucky on his save, he can really menace them. But this is true for all melee strikers v casters.
Where does the reliable DPR come into play? His CMB falls into a reasonable range, which is then penalized -2 for Flurry of blows. For example, you pump your Wis to 18, gaining +4 to your CMB, When you flurry, you net a +2. If your opponent is flat footed, you might cause him anywhere from -0 to -4ish AC loss (generalizing here). So again, the classes that depend *most* on Dex to AC are immune (save the Ranger).
He still uses an inferior damage die, and his crit is absolute pits. He's now doing a decent amount of regular damage, with very little contribution from crits. And, if he chooses to use one of his attacks to Trip, he's lost a little DPR in exchange for a great combat maneuver advantage. But again, the Fighter or a 7th level Wildshape druid are already doing this.
As for his AC, it can never beat a character wearing heavy armor in terms of avoiding melee damage. The core monk makes a poor tank at best, because when he's hit... he doesn't have the health to stand there and take it; which means he can't really control the battle field as well as the fighter, among others.
Thanks again for the reasonable disagreement :) I've bumped your thread, as it deserves the praise and more attention.
--pc
Monks have no weak saves and the highest touch AC in the game. They have evasion. They pick up immunities as they level. They start with the shared prerequisite for style feats and can get most of the other feat prerequisites as bonus feats. They are effectively 4 level casters with the quigong archetype.All of this is true. But take, for example, the fact that the druid also gains these Immunities, and thanks to Wildshape, also gains evasion, pounce, grab, rake, and rend (the most powerful combat feats in the game). The druid has a much higher AC, casts 9th level spells, and deals superior DPR. Oh, and his self heals are superior, and he gets an animal companion, which by itself does more DPR and has a greater AC than the core monk. In essence, the monk is barely half of a druid, and again barely half of a druid's animal companion. And so compared to the Druid class, is barely worth a quarter of a druid in value.
OK, so I've not read through the whole DPR olympics, but I'm struggleng to see how a druid has better DPR than a monk. I can get the AC in part because they get to wear armor and they get natural AC in wildshape which is only partly offset by dex loss, but even at using a huge creature with an attack dealing 1d10 +str 20x2 I'm not seeing that much of an improvement over the monks 2d10 +str 20x2. And while all those abilities are useful, I have yet to see the creature which gives more than 3 of those at a time.
I really am curious about this, not just speaking rhetorical insults, if you could oblige me.
As for the comparison to the animal companion, I find that one somewhat of a stretch considering their lower number of HD (even if they are still d8s), similar to worse damage output (lower dmg dice if possibly a higher Str), lower AC, and their lack of any real special abilities. Yes, they match a monk on BAB and evasion (based on the druids lvl), and they might have one or two special abilities (such as a rake/pounce combo) which can be powerful, but I still don't see the matchup as a single caster can often fry an animal companion in a couple of rounds by targeting touch AC.
And back to the discussion of item slots, a friend of mine pointed out that a monk can still use robes with an armor enhancement without loosing his monk AC (no slot lost by that method, since it takes up the armor space but is not considered armor), and though he does loose the ability to use a shield, he can wield one item in each hand that doesn't even have to be a weapon (wands, ropes, etc) and still has access to his full flurry using his full str for all attacks. It's almost a net gain of item slots, or at the worst a draw.
And it puts a monk build pretty much even with most armored fighters, if not better depending on their build.
The high touch AC, good saves and other abilities mentioned however, are indeed relevant, as they nix many spellcaster tactics. It has no bearing on what AC they target, but it gives them a big bump on the defensive. Rogues even have some difficulty vs. monks because their speed makes them harder to flank and their monk AC keeps them hard to hit, especially with those robes and a decent Wis.
I agree that monks don't hit often enough, but giving them a good BAB should cover that for the most part. The innate ability to ignore Dex and Dodge AC is a bit much. This alone will improve their DPR.
If you really want to go a step further on hitting your opponents, give them Imp Feint as one of their bonus feat selections. But if that's still not enough, allow them to add their Wis to dmg rolls as well. This step does make Wis more loaded as a stat, but would allow them to focus on a Dex/Wis build with Weapon Finesse and boost their AC and Dmg even more.
I'm not saying that monks are perfect, but I truly doubt that allowing them to use CMB as BAB and CMD as AC is going to be balanced past lower levels.
Past that, these are my opinions and suggestions, not a definitive ruling. As master arminas said, if this is working in your group, it really doesn't matter what I or any one else thinks for the simple reason that it is working in your group.
Just realize that you did ask for our thoughts, and that is all that we have provided. If you disagree with them, say so, but don't run yourself hoarse, either. At some point, you will just have to start ignoring it (and us) and go on with life. This thread will die soon enough.
Check out Treantmonk's Lab, compare what are arguably the most optimized core-book Monk and Druid. The druid simply owns.
The major difference between a Druid's pet and a Monk, is that the druid's pet gets 3-4 natural attacks all at its highest BaB, along with Pounce, Grab, Rake, and Rend. The Monk's flurry of blows is a comparatively inferior mechanic, which provides fewer attacks per round, and each suffers a -2 penalty. Also, a druid's pet doesn't suffer from MAD, while the monk is a primary victim of this sort of curse. As for the AC comparison, a druid's pet can/does wear barding without penalty. The Monk's robe slot is limited in how much AC it can provide through magical enhancements, and again the magical bonus its offering is... AC; rather the other super awesome options that all of the other melee classes enjoy (along with great inherent AC from their armor).
If you really want to go a step further on hitting your opponents, give them Imp Feint as one of their bonus feat selections. But if that's still not enough, allow them to add their Wis to dmg rolls as well. This step does make Wis more loaded as a stat, but would allow them to focus on a Dex/Wis build with Weapon Finesse and boost their AC and Dmg even more.
I appreciate all of these suggestions, and they are effectively equivalent; and because they are nearly equivalent, please go with the option you find more interesting. However, I feel that the disadvantage of your solution lays in the lack of bonus damage from strength. And, again, this basically makes him a fighter (something like a convoluted, less effective archetype). I feel that what my group has done with this fix is to complement the *idea* of the monk being a martial artist, and is unique to the Monk.
Something to think on, your suggestions do not really address two of the major defects of the Monk: His unjustifiably poor AC, and his loss of two valuable item slot enchantments. I feel that our fix has killed those two birds with one stone.
Either way, these are the sorts of thoughts I hope for, not conjecture, and certainly not sanctimonious statements such as:
At some point, you will just have to start ignoring it (and us) and go on with life. This thread will die soon enough.
I'd say this is a bit too full of ourselves. We are debating the merits of my idea, and I am also in the odd position of having to educate. These sorts of thread rundowns will always seem defensive, but what else can be done when derogatory posts are made without the slightest attempt at running the numbers?
Tone for tone, eye for an eye, its just a stupid thread :) about a game. My personal rule of thumb, run numbers first, flap lips second.
--PC
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I spent quite a bit of time with this thread before deciding to homebrew, it ultimately validated our frustrations with the mechanics that we have sought to improve.
Here is an example of a great fix pulled from that thread:
AdAstraGames Wrote:
If I could make one (and only one) change to the Monk class - to increase its utility and its flavor, and make it more unique, it would be this.
The Monk's fast movement bonus (and any movement bonus gained from spending ki) is added to their 5' step distance for the purpose of making a full attack or flurry.
However this did not fix his AC problem, and so we did not choose it as our solution. This is also a radical change, as Monks would be able to move 40' as a 5' movement, making them immune to AoOs and would act as Pounce. And yet its within tolerance when looking at the whole of the Monk.
What is easily derived from that thread, is the fact that the Monk is poor at dealing damage, poor at avoiding and taking damage, poor at combat maneuvers. The only thing he is good at is moving long distances. Something that by itself is not good enough of a class feature to claim usefulness. Especially when there are other classes (this again) like the wildshape druid who can take the form of a Deinonychus at level 4, gaining 60' movement, 4 Primary attacks dealing 1D8+8 x2, plus 1D6+8, plus 1D4+8 damage; all at your full +8 BaB (higher if you have some cheap magical gear). Plus you have Low-light Vision and Scent. Suddenly you're an amazing skirmisher and tracker... Oh, and you have a pet that doubles your total DPR each round.
Then there are Beast Totem Barbs with 4 Primary natural attacks doing the same damage as the Druid. But guess what, he takes Charge Through and Improved Overrun, and he's skirmishing as well--if not better than the Monk--while still being able to deal *massively* greater damage.
Again, why choose the core Monk, when his one greatest feature, his movement speed, is still matched-and-overshadowed by other melee classes?
Also, there were criticisms of GM's basing their assumptions of power imbalance between classes on the 15 min adventure day. I have just listed two non-caster dps terrors who can do it all day long.
This is where my fix is coming from, and in light of easily quantifiable suckage on the core Monk as written, my fix is pretty tame, and again only improves him to a *good* choice, he's still not among the *best* choices.
Forgive the annoyance of the tone in any of my posts. I feel the aggravation that many express toward this simple little tweak is mostly from ignorance of the real dilemma, and also from misperceptions of how far this actually changes his numbers.
Its a great, thematic fix. Its not overpowered. Its cool and fun. Yay.
--PC
Aight, I think what I have learned from this thread is that when posting homebrew, I will be mindful toward potential concerns in my OP. I will address these concerns early, and specifically with DPR calculations, making reasonable comparisons to other classes, and to better justify any large power jumps.
I will patiently repeat concessions that I have made, over and over again for every thoughtful poster who offers an already presented concern.
I will not reply to knee-jerk dismissals of my ideas, as those types of posts offer nothing and are meant to aggravate. I will be careful of mixing the tone that I take with various posters in the same response. Someone whom I appreciate might read a harsh tone used with someone I do not appreciate, and internalize it. Thus creating the misperception that I was being harsh with them as well.
The internet is a tricky place.
--PC
The rogue dip is a non-issue in my campaign. I don't allow multiclassing or prestige classes. An adaptation could be make all rogues non-lawful. They are rogues, after all.
Mh, very complex and difficult to evaluate, for sure I can say that the AC you could reach is way too high.
Please keep in mind that monk do have a lot of other impressive features: SR and amazing saves comes into mind first, but also skills, evasion, a lot of feats and so on. You could decide to give them AC and DPR comparable to that of a fighter, but then you HAVE to give the fighter a gun, so that he can shoot himself in the mouth.
Monks are weak if you try to make them do the work of the fighter, but they can fill their niches imho.
I like the idea of a AC=CMD but it's troublesome to implement (at least it is for me) and to balance. Also think about this: natural armor is not considered in CMD, so what happens if your monk get barkskin on steroids cast on him? nothing, he could get a +20 nat armor and this would not be reflected by the mechanics. Imho crane style is the best representation of this, without the need to come up with strange mechanics.
Still, if you really want a martial focused monk, I'd create an archetype for it.
I'd do it something like this:
Get rid of SR, get rid of dimension door give him a bad save (will for example, as such a character would be more focused on physical prowess than other monks), get rid of some of the fluff stuff (I'm referring to the "awesomeness of body" chain, or just give him a +4 bonus instead of immunity) and give him weapon training as the fighter, defense training (something like +1 dodge AC at 3rd level and +1 every four level thereafter).
I think it's clear what I'm doing: I'm ok with a monk being as effective as a fighter (maybe still a bit below damage wise, I was thinking about full BAB on charge and maybe double damage for the awesomeness of flying kicks) but only in exchange for some of the monk coolness.
I really fear those who want the monk to be a better fighter than the fighter just think that a man who secluded himself to study martial arts should be better than those who actually fought all their life: I do not.
Awesome :) So just to set the tone of this particular reply, my concerns and my fix are totally gamist. The monk is a thematically rich class and is fun to imagine playing. However, we feel that the Core Monk is mechanically weak; hence our gamist focus. As well, Monk Archetypes in the APG provide deeper mechanical support, Style feats grant him goodness as well, and the Temple Sword corrects his low DPR. There's no need at this stage in the Pathfinder release cycle to complain about Monk's at all, as using these new options shape him into a choice of a)Fighter b)Ranger c)Bard d)Rogue. However, we feel that by assimilating the mechanics of other classes, he loses his particular flavor as an unarmed perfectionist of the martial arts.
Ever think about just letting a monk have armor? One of the advantages of a monk is that he is never disarmed. He's like a sorcerer. He can be stripped naked and he wakes up with all his powers.
This is a very good fix. A superficial concern that I would have is that, with armor, he's basically a fighter with many choices made for him. Just as we dislike Paizo giving them the Temple Sword as a fix for their inferior DPR. He loses the unarmed 'martial artist' flavor that we at our table find so attractive. And something minor to point out, that a Fighter can simply select Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and now he's better than a monk in the scenario you've set. I don't mean to sound flip, my apologies if any of this comes across that way.
Monks are weak if you try to make them do the work of the fighter, but they can fill their niches imho.
I agree, we didn't want the Monk to do the work of the fighter, we wanted to expand the ways in which he can specialize. After extensive reading on these boards the Monk is specifically the Mage Killer. Reasons quoted include his all-high saves, the rational for his low to-hit is that he can at least hit a Wizard, and his increased movement 'gets him there' quickly. Stunning fist is a weak mechanic due to its reliance on Wis, and the Monk suffers the most from MAD. Therefore, because the Wizard has a low Fort-save, the Monk is specialized against wizards.
Here is a list of concerns with this assumed role:
2. Many complain (as is our complaint) that he takes damage easily, and is in constant need of healing. This forces the healer to chase him around the field rather than abjurate and buff, neglecting the other party members.
3. And another Major complaint is that he cannot move and Flurry. If he is constantly chasing down gaps in the the party's tactics, he's making only a single attack at a 3/4 BaB. If I can distill this properly, he moves really far and then does nothing of consequence.
4. A wizard can, in one round, pump his AC to that of an armored fighter, or can simply become unhittable via the fly spell. Granted, other classes can then plunk at him from range, but the Monk can do nothing at all.
5. This is too specialized of a role, and nothing in his retinue is any more impressive than what a Barb, Rogue, or Fighter can do to a Wizard. In fact, they have tools which make them even better Mage-killers.
All of this points to him being a poor Mage Killer and Skirmisher. This is where our fix picks up. I did not calculate his AC at level 20, this was an oversight that needs attention. For levels 1-10, his AC is perfectly fine, as is his DPR. I will take the time today to look at levels 11-20 and see where the disparity kicks in, and then compare this power jump to his peer classes. Perhaps they all get a big boost or maybe not, we'll see. My opinion is that late game is a completely different game than how it begins, and so I'll probably try and balance things along this divide. Early is fine, late might not be fine.
--PC
Evereytime I read one of this "Fix the Monk" threads I feel like seeing somebody kicking a dead horse.
Monks have recieved a lot of love especially in ultimate combat and anything to improve their offense now is too much. You can´t keep on citing treantmonk or the DPR olympics they are outdated.The only thing Monks would need currently is something like pounce and thats it.
As for your "Fix":I´m sorry but you can´t be serious with this.Full BAB, Wisdom to attack and Auto Flank thats just ridiculous.Monks would have the best AC best Offense best Saves and wouldn´t be MAD anymore in the slightest.All the other martial classes would pale against them.
Evereytime I read one of this "Fix the Monk" threads I feel like seeing somebody kicking a dead horse.
Your personal frustrations are irrelevant to this thread. This is a homebrew section where people contribute ideas for those interested. You apparently are not an interested party. Good for you, thanks for the bump.
I agree that UC improved the monk, yet our group didn't really like the style feats as they were overly situational. UC improved the monk from horrid, to meh.
As to the power bump from our fix, I have already demonstrated that the AC correction is great, and why that is justified and balanced. However, the DPR improves only to low average.
It's not auto-flank, its flat-footed, and I have also presented an in-depth look at how concern for this is hyperbolic. I even do the math for readers like yourself, who are... too self-aggrandizing to do it themselves. Please take a moment to read a few posts up from yours to see the numbers and who is actually affected.
And to wrap this up, the Monk retains a horrid To Hit, horrid AC, horrid DPR, and is completely MAD even with UC. We have eliminated MAD, given him a great AC, middling DPR through improved chance to hit. We haven't done anything extreme with this fix. In fact, its a great fix.
Thank you for posting, but no thank you at the same time.
--PC
Play tested, works well, a decent but not huge improvement to DPR that places him within +/-5 DPR of a 2H-Fighter Archetype, and a perfect correction to his AC problem. Simply add this as a level 1 class feature for all starting Monks.
MARTIAL ARTS:
Add your Wisdom to your CMB and CMD. Use your CMB as your Melee Attack modifier. Use CMD as your AC. When making unarmed strikes, treat your target as flat-footed unless it has Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, or Improved Unarmed Strike.The gist is that you fight in an unconventional way, you're not blocking with a weapon, more so you're moving inside their reach, wrist locking, stealing their inertia, etc. You don't wear armor, you don't fight with weapons... you shouldn't be using the conventional AC and BaB modifiers because everything you do is some sort of Combat Maneuver; even your way of dealing damage. So this is thematically appropriate as well as balanced.
Post thoughts if you have em.
--PC
No. Just no. There's a lot wrong here in terms of theory-crafting and this will easily be broken in all manner of ways.
Note that CMD includes the monk's 3/4 BAB which will grow to 15 by level 20; but it excludes armor and natural armor - arguably this is somewhat balanced but I don't think so: at low levels potions of mage armor, having a level in magus/sorcerer for [i]shield[i] is useless, wielding a quarterstaff with the Shield of Swings feat is useless, a lot of defensive mechanisms simply won't work. But you can take a feat to use your character level instead of BAB for CMD, so you end up with a base 30 for AC, then add strength, dexterity, wisdom, dodge, deflection, insight and any other bonus that increases CMD. Even without items that is a base expected AC of 40+. A side-effect is that a lot of AC-money is saved, which the monk gets to dump into his already stellar saves and into his attack/damage - which already is huge since his CMB is based on monk-level, strength and wisdom - giving him an unprecedented power-loop that gives him a higher bonus to attacks than a raging barbarian, along with the many many flurry attacks that are a monk's want. Since the target is flat-footed, not only are sneak-attack dips a welcome addition to accelerate damage; but things like Medusa's Wrath auto-apply (along with a number of other feats/abilities that are usually limited to flat-footed opponents) - but flat-footedness also has the side effect of essentially increasing the monk's bonus to attack (reducing AC, or increasing attack are mathematically synonymous in this case) so not only does he exceed a raging barbarian's attack, he exceeds it by a lot.
This is not an acceptable fix for the monk, and the DPR calculations are not on par with +/- 5 of the DPR of a two-hander fighter, they exceed it noticeably.
and the DPR calculations are not on par with +/- 5 of the DPR of a two-hander fighter, they exceed it noticeably.
This is not correct. I have been working on a DPR comparison between the Monk using this fix, and a Two-Handed Fighter Archetype from levels 1-20. When it is complete, I will post the results here to quell the conjecture that readers keep posting. Saying that the monk's DPR is "too good" is the same as saying that Sneak Attack damage is "too good." Its not, Rogues are a middling/meh DPR when compared to Natural Attack Barbarians, Wildshape druids, and a host of other martials with superior DPR builds.
As I posted earlier, my mistake with this post was in not doing a thorough mockup beforehand and posting the numbers. Oops. I'm working on a correction.
Thanks.
--PC
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The only thing Monks would need currently is something like pounce and thats it.
Four Winds monk, extra damage for every standard attack and flurry along with a once per hour pounce at higher levels over a ridiculous distance. Building towards this with a monk i've had a great deal of success ith in LoF.
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There's a lot going on here, so let me talk this out one piece at a time.
Add Wisdom to CMB and CMD: Monks already get Maneuver Training to give them a CMB comparable to a full BAB class, and they already add their Wisdom to CMD. That said, this makes Wisdom even more valuable for a monk, which partially alleviates them of their MAD I suppose.
Replace attack bonus with CMB: Since we already added Wisdom to CMB, and replaced the monk's BAB with their monk level, this now means that the monk is a full=BAB class that uses Wisdom and Strength to hit. My biggest issue is that Small characters get a +1 bonus to hit, but a -1 penalty to CMB. So this nerfs Small monks?
Replace AC with CMD: So now Monks add their Strength to AC? I guess Monks still need Strength after all. And again, small monks trade a +1 for a -1.
Finding foes flat-footed forever: Monk is already an attractive dip for rogues due to Stunning Fist, but suddenly one level of monk and every rogue gets sneak attack on every attack, and gets TWF for free? Of all the extra abilities here, this is the one that scares me the most. I like the idea, but personally I'd say that the monk should have to spend a ki point for this ability. That would help alleviate the rampant dipping by forcing the rogue to take at least 4 levels of monk, plus having a decent Wisdom score (a stat most rogues can safely dump).
I like the idea, but personally I'd say that the monk should have to spend a ki point for this ability.
How long do you suggest it should last?
--PC
There are...a lot of them...
The Monk.
Your experiences with monks.
Monks and Age of Worms.
Monks need full BAB.
New Monk BandAid on Sucking Chest Wound.
Monks: A Treantmonk Guide.
Why is the Monk so fricking rad?
Why all the monk hate?
Monks. What is their role?Why Monks? (Probably the ur example of why 3.5 monks were bad and why PF had to fix them.)
TOZ thanks for mentioning the monks are frisking rad thread they are you know
I wanted a fair representation, and let's face it, there was plenty of representation of both sides in that thread.
best part was that thread was really started because i do like monks but real arguments bore me i wanted to use the words bathrobe flip out kill you way to freedom in the same sentence.
but in all seriousness i think a simple fix would be letting the monk add his wisdom to attack and damage. problem solved
Lob and TOZ, APG + UC pretty much fixed the monk, and gave him a variety of defined roles. Style feats are fun too, and with the temple sword he's got some solid DPR.
We still didn't like the feeling that he's basically a Fighter archetype with some premade choices. His Ki-mechanic seems under emphasized, and he loses his 'unarmed fighter' thematic element.
No fix is necessary, but we have enjoyed the theme of our fix very much. He doesn't use weapons, doesn't wear armor, and doesn't need em ;)
I have most of my DPR/AC analysis done, and I have an entire day tomorrow to finish and post it for those interested in metrics showing how far our fix actually goes.
--PC
I've limited my extrapolation to levels 10 and 20, feat selection isn't crazy optimal, but it does demonstrate the power level of this house-rule's monk:
Str 22 = 16base + 2racial + 2magic + 2levels
Dex 16 = 14base + 2magic
Con 14 = 12base + 2magic
Int 10 = 10base
Wis 18 = 14base + 4magic
Cha 8 = 8base
1 dodge(m), defensive combat training, toughness
2 combat reflexes (m)
3 weapon focus
4
5 dragon style
6 improved trip (m)
7 dragon ferocity
8
9 power attack
10 medusa's wrath (m)
- belt of perfection +2 (16000)
- headband of wisdom +4 (16000)
- cloak +3 (9000)
- amulet of mighty fists +1 (5000)
- ring of protection +2 (8000)
- dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000)
- wayfinder resonating with dusty rose prism (500) adds +2 insight bonus to CMB and CMD
= 59500gp
items:
CMB = 24 = 10bab(monk ability) + 6str + 4wis + 2insight + 1feat + 1magic
CMD = 40 = 10base + 10bab(feat) + 6str + 3dex + 4wis + 2monk + 2insight + 1dodge + 2deflect
damage = 9str(12 on first hit) + 1magic
can use power attack
HP = 93 = 8 + 9 * 5 + 10 * (2 + 1 + 1) (includes favored class bonus)
Saves = 12/13/14 (7base + 3magic + stat)
using CR10 threat: target AC 24, target flat AC 22
attacking with power attack, at flat-footed target (since that is the norm), medusa's wrath applies:
attack = CMB - 3powerattack
damage = 1d10 + 16 = 21.5expected (except of first hit, from dragon style makes it 24.5)
attack sequence = 21/21/21/21/16/16
expected DPR = 0.95 * 1.05 * 24.5 + 3 * 0.95 * 1.05 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.7 * 1.05 * 21.5 = 120.385
expected DPR with ki-attack = 0.95 * 1.05 * 24.5 + 4 * 0.95 * 1.05 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.7 * 1.05 * 21.5 = 141.82875
That is 120+ expected DPR on a charater at level 10 who also happens to have amazing untouchable AC of 40. Even if you don't add any additional items, that would become AC 54(monk ac and stat bonuses) at level 20 - with additional items ALOT more), solid saves at 12/13/14, all the normal monk abilities like fast movement, immunities, bonuses to saves, self-healing, etc.
At level 20, assuming an amulet of mighty fists +5, ring of protection +5, belt of perfection +6, headband of wisdom +6, +5str/dex/wis tomes, and bonuses from levels that would become 34str, 28dex, 30wis which would net a total:
CMB = 43
CMD = 73
And most enemies are still flat-footed to the monk's attacks.
It is too good. Really.