Goblin Squad Member
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Mounts should mean something besides "Look at what I paid $$$ for."
I wanna be able to ride animals, dinosaurs, magical beasts, dragons and Blaster (Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome). I want to train, feed, protect, heal, and raise the creature instead of it being a robot that follows me everywhere and attacks what I do.
I want to be able to use a canoe/ferry/etc to cross a river or lake. Sail an ocean by ship. Move my goods via cart/caravan. Race towards the enemy in my chariot. Move through the Darklands like the Cleaners (Labyrinth). And not use an NPC crew for all these things. Maybe have NPC crew on standby but let players take over when available.
No free mounts. Creatures must be bought/captured and trained. And other forms of transport built and then rowed/sailed/driven/flown. Maybe mounts/transports are earned/won in tournements, helping the carpenter's guild, or saving a sacred elven forest from the Lumber Consortium. I want to see them be able to be killed, broken, and destroyed.
It is a big wish list, but one I feel vital to immersion. Even if the game does not have these options at first, I would rather see them appear later in a meaningful manner. I am sick of I bought the expansion so I get a dragon, I hit level 40 and now have a faithful wolf, and etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mounts should mean something besides "Look at what I paid $$$ for."
I wanna be able to ride animals, dinosaurs, magical beasts, dragons and Blaster (Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome). I want to train, feed, protect, heal, and raise the creature instead of it being a robot that follows me everywhere and attacks what I do.
I want to be able to use a canoe/ferry/etc to cross a river or lake. Sail an ocean by ship. Move my goods via cart/caravan. Race towards the enemy in my chariot. Move through the Darklands like the Cleaners (Labyrinth). And not use an NPC crew for all these things. Maybe have NPC crew on standby but let players take over when available.
No free mounts. Creatures must be bought/captured and trained. And other forms of transport built and then rowed/sailed/driven/flown. Maybe mounts/transports are earned/won in tournements, helping the carpenter's guild, or saving a sacred elven forest from the Lumber Consortium. I want to see them be able to be killed, broken, and destroyed.
It is a big wish list, but one I feel vital to immersion. Even if the game does not have these options at first, I would rather see them appear later in a meaningful manner. I am sick of I bought the expansion so I get a dragon, I hit level 40 and now have a faithful wolf, and etc.
Actually I have to say that to one extent it is a really good idea. Make an animal trainer a valid career path, make selling them possible as well. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of cash shop mounts and animals (Being equal to player capturable ones, not better), due to the game needing some sort of funding, and IMO the fairest way to fund the game without screwing over either free or paid customers, is to make the items indistinguishable from what is earned in game.
I think the idea of being able to make an animal whisperer character, one who specializes in training and taming animals, uses pets as his primary form of combat, but also tames and sells extras to players without that focus (now those other players may not be able to handle them like he does), would create an interesting dynamic.
The idea of mounts being killable, while I like it in theory, it does lead to challanges, primarally the part of where do they go when you dismount, if they are out and killable/stealable when you go into a dungeon... well then you completely negate the purpose of a mount, nobody will ever ride them anywhere except between towns, otherwise they will almost certainly be gone when you get back. Pets that can follow you anywhere though, I would see their deaths as being possible to be permanant, requiring you to buy a new one, or spend some good money reviving, too many games encorage regular suicide missions for pets so that you just pop them back after they die, if it takes a day tame/combat train a pet, that issue might go away. (I'm thinking more like a 12 hour AFK training option for pets, rather then 12 active hours staring at a bar to train the pet)
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The idea of mounts being killable, while I like it in theory, it does lead to challanges, primarally the part of where do they go when you dismount, if they are out and killable/stealable when you go into a dungeon... well then you completely negate the purpose of a mount, nobody will ever ride them anywhere except between towns, otherwise they will almost certainly be gone when you get back. Pets that can follow you anywhere though, I would see their deaths as being possible to be permanant, requiring you to buy a new one, or spend some good money reviving, too many games encorage regular suicide missions for pets so that you just pop them back after they die, if it takes a day tame/combat train a pet, that issue might go away. (I'm thinking more like a 12 hour AFK training option for pets, rather then 12 active hours staring at a bar to train the pet)
Imho they should handle mounts in similiar way to Red Dead Redemption. When you get off your horse/llama/unicorn/anything else it just stays there or helps you fight while you're around. After some time if it wasn't killed in your sight, it just disappears(To lower server stress and stuff)
If you want it to get back - you just use it, so your character whistles or whatever, and here we go - your mount rides to you from random direction. This way they won't die too often and it will be kinda more immersive than little cloud and voila - you're sitting on unkillable mount.OFC there should be stables, abillity to train your mounts et cetera. More and more options in MMO is always a great thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imho they should handle mounts in similiar way to Red Dead Redemption. When you get off your horse/llama/unicorn/anything else it just stays there or helps you fight while you're around. After some time if it wasn't killed in your sight, it just disappears(To lower server stress and stuff)
If you want it to get back - you just use it, so your character whistles or whatever, and here we go - your mount rides to you from random direction. This way they won't die too often and it will be kinda more immersive than little cloud and voila - you're sitting on unkillable mount.
OFC there should be stables, abillity to train your mounts et cetera. More and more options in MMO is always a great thing.
Hmm... the imitation of running off into the woods actually makes sense, less meta gamey then the random disappearance and summon, Mechanically it is the exact same, but visually less ugly.
Imho they should handle mounts in similiar way to Red Dead Redemption. When you get off your horse/llama/unicorn/anything else it just stays there or helps you fight while you're around. After some time if it wasn't killed in your sight, it just disappears(To lower server stress and stuff)
If you want it to get back - you just use it, so your character whistles or whatever, and here we go - your mount rides to you from random direction. This way they won't die too often and it will be kinda more immersive than little cloud and voila - you're sitting on unkillable mount.
OFC there should be stables, abillity to train your mounts et cetera. More and more options in MMO is always a great thing.
+1. This would make a horse-rangeer a very fun class indeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mounts are as integral to immersion as any other visual aspect of the game. All I ask is that they're kept reasonable. Micro transactions favour cosmetic items = mounts + several years = an ugly array of a million mounts.
That aside, this would be my ideal implementation:
- I would very much enjoy riding to be a skill. Let us suggest it is a skill which ranges from 1-100. As one increases in this range, one can ride mounts of greater speed and manoeuvrability and also increase their capacity for mounted combat. For one with 0 riding skill, a mount would be a flimsy form of transportation; for those with 100 skill, a valuable and resilient weapon in combat similar to that of a war horse.
- Mounts can be bought from NPC or PC tamers/trainers. NPCs would offer more flimsy stock mounts whilst player tamers could train and sell high quality mounts.
- Mounts must die. No statues. Primarily as this takes away an interesting and valuable game trade, it's also silly and for what you gain in ease of play, you eliminate a vast array of valuable features the game could include.
- Mounts must be disposable. Offer cheap flimsy mounts for those used for travel and more expensive and skill intensive mounts which would allow for greater survivability. An idea would be a mount could be taught to be ordered to flee or 'run off', yet return to the owners whistle given the character (similar to that of Red Dead Redemption as above). This would only be available to those with a very basic level of skill in riding.
Remember, a range of forms of travel will or should exist and riding a mount needn't be a requirement. If themeparks have done anything, they've made us forget that a game can function without everyone riding a horse. Taxi services, Wizard teleportation, wilderness skills for rangers to cut through difficult terrain at speed; there are many interesting alternatives to mounted travel. In my opinion, ones capacity for travelling large distances is part of the composition of any single character.
- Mounts should be aesthetically pleasing, but not deviate to such a degree as to diminish the integrity of the surroundings. No riding rainbow coloured dragons or pink turkeys.
Goblinworks Founder
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The only request I have for mounts is for Goblinworks to hire the guy that did Age of Conan's horse animations. I have yet to see a single player or multiplayer game that can better the animations they did. They are simply amazing.
It is that good, that I cannot use a horse in other games now. I've been spoilted to the point that even Skyrim and Assassins Creed cannot compete with AoC's Horse animations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something I would like to see with Mounts and the like is perhaps the 'Farmer' Skill could branch out into 'Crops' 'livestock' and 'mounts'.
At lower levels, this includes Ponies, Horses, Riding Dogs and maybe even Camels. At higher levels this could include Gryphons, Hippogriffs, Wvyerns and other, more exotic creatures.
And as a potential 'limiter' to the mental image of plains full of paddocks of Magical Flying Critters big enough for the whole party to ride on, the location of the 'Farm' should play a part in what creatures you can potentially raise.
Most mundane animals can be raised on Plains or Valleys, but more exotic mounts might need more exotic terrain. Want to raise Dragonnes? Buy and build a farm in their natural habitat, and raise some livestock or crops to feed them while you're at it. Want to breed something sleek and fast, like a Tiger, the forest is your best bet, while something tough and sturdy like a Woolly Rhino would likely take best to cold mountain valleys.
Ideally, Farms should be able to produce a small subset of creatures per farm, but within those creatures a wide range of strength, durability, speed and combat prowess should be available. Want to breed up tough mounts that can serve their masters in combat as well as Travel, or perhaps you seek to create faster beasts of burden capable of running tirelessly over miles?
I'm probably asking too much again, but the ability to be able to breed 'niche' mounts would be a nice touch. Player A might just focus on mounts that cover all bases nicely, while Player B might make slower but deadly breeds, while Player C might make fast, agile mounts capable out outrunning damn near anything, while Player D might focus on flying mounts or incredible exotic beasts for other Players looking for shock-value. Trading between farms to gain some benefits from new 'breeding stock' could also be an interesting twist!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of mounts being killable, while I like it in theory, it does lead to challanges, primarally the part of where do they go when you dismount, if they are out and killable/stealable when you go into a dungeon... well then you completely negate the purpose of a mount, nobody will ever ride them anywhere except between towns, otherwise they will almost certainly be gone when you get back. Pets that can follow you anywhere though, I would see their deaths as being possible to be permanant, requiring you to buy a new one, or spend some good money reviving, too many games encorage regular suicide missions for pets so that you just pop them back after they die, if it takes a day tame/combat train a pet, that issue might go away. (I'm thinking more like a 12 hour AFK training option for pets, rather then 12 active hours staring at a bar to train the pet)
Perhaps only make them killable while your riding, as others have mentioned, they could run off and hide while not in use, whistle to retrive, but if your riding them, then it's fair game to try to shoot the mount out from under you.
I hope we can avoid adding flying mounts entirely.
So no Golarion griffon riders, then.
I don't see this happening.
How rare are griffon riders in Golarion?
So do we want to classify that as very rare, super rare or ultra rare?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, it's hippogriffs, and Korvosa.
What point would there be to classify it's rarity on a global scale? I'm sure people in Korvosa would think they're a pretty big deal, and any player that wants to make a character that can become one would think it's pretty darned important.
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Sorry, it's hippogriffs, and Korvosa.
What point would there be to classify it's rarity on a global scale?
How closely do you want PFO to reflect the Pathfinder setting? I'd like it to be as close as reasonable personally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, it's hippogriffs, and Korvosa.
What point would there be to classify it's rarity on a global scale? I'm sure people in Korvosa would think they're a pretty big deal, and any player that wants to make a character that can become one would think it's pretty darned important.
and thus comes the problem of things like this for MMORPGs, something that is intended to be super rare, must either 1. have a requirement that takes years to achieve, 2. Not be given to players 3. Be accepted as extremely common, unless comperable good things come from many different groups that are mutually exclusive.
Personally I don't like the implications of 3. So I'd preffer them to either be on par with the titan in eve in terms of difficulty obtaining (which makes sense, considering an elite faction isn't going to just take 1 million joes off the street. Even that though has some serious implications, that is pretty much unlimited fast/safe travel for the person in question, that is more then just a huge combat advantage, that is an insane safety and efficiency boost. 3. is equally problematic, considering now you are pretty much requiring them to come up with a good air combat system, or we can expect travel to be a completely safe event.
Which pretty much just leaves 2, make them npc only and make Korvosa an NPC only group.
...and also what Onishi said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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and thus comes the problem of things like this for MMORPGs, something that is intended to be super rare
Define super rare. Just because only one nation on Golarion has a troupe of hippogriff riders doesn't mean no one else ever does it. There's rules to train and raise griffons and hippogriffs for riding...
Grind up your handle animal skill and ride skills and go for it.must either 1. have a requirement that takes years to achieve,
Like reaching cap skill level, or any other thing worthwhile in an MMO?
2. Not be given to players
Sure this is an option. You could have a game in Golarion where you couldn't be a Pathfinder, either.
3. Be accepted as extremely common, unless comperable good things come from many different groups that are mutually exclusive.
This is going to be a skill based game. Everyone will have the chance to grind the same skills as everyone else. If they chose not to grind the ones that allow you to train and ride an exotic mount, or fight effectively from one, why should they get one? Just cuz?
Personally I don't like the implications of 3. So I'd preffer them to either be on par with the titan in eve in terms of difficulty obtaining (which makes sense, considering an elite faction isn't going to just take 1 million joes off the street. Even that though has some serious implications, that is pretty much unlimited fast/safe travel for the person in question, that is more then just a huge combat advantage, that is an insane safety and efficiency boost. 3. is equally problematic, considering now you are pretty much requiring them to come up with a good air combat system, or we can expect travel to be a completely safe event.
Which pretty much just leaves 2, make them npc only and make Korvosa an NPC only group.
Can anyone in EVE build a Titan, or only those with the skills to do so?
I dunno about how complicated an air combat system needs to be. If your attacks have ranges, then get in range and use them. If a guy's flying and you want to kill him, fly within range or wait for him to land within range. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?
As far as travel safety, I'd imagine it'd be just as safe as running around with a high stealth skill or invisibility. Gotta see someone to target them.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be something it takes a while to get. It would kind of ruin it if all you had to do was go talk to the Sable company NPC and boom you're in.
Not making it an option at all would suck. Wouldn't be a game ruiner, but it would suck.
All imho, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or you make it a reward for a long and difficult series of quests that span a vast area of the world. Then you make the use of such a thing limit your ability to do other things such that it is a trade off in other forms of awesome.
First off by definition of long, you pretty much have to be talking, months/years worth of long, as anyone and everyone will take 3 weeks to get absolute 100% safer and significantly faster travel, and well what can the alternatives be that are on par with perfectly safe travel? When you are talking something as game-breakingly strong as this, you need something pretty darn big to make it not the only sane option.
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Goblin Squad Member
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once flying mounts are made available to players, everyone is going to have them. if there is high requirement to have them, everyone is going to get that requirement. everyone is going to pay the price, no matter how high.
i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.
edit: as for Titans in EVE. yes, everyone has them. it's just silly how many supercaps are in EVE, and what players are willing to do to get them.
Define super rare. Just because only one nation on Golarion has a troupe of hippogriff riders doesn't mean no one else ever does it. There's rules to train and raise griffons and hippogriffs for riding...
Grind up your handle animal skill and ride skills and go for it.
It's more than just about having the skills to ride and train an exotic mount. How rare are griffons and hippogriffs in Golaron? Would you just go to Ye Ol' Griffinmart and shell out 1000pp or would you have to capture one yourself? How difficult would that be to do solo? How often would they spawn? How long before exotic becomes common place?
This is going to be a skill based game. Everyone will have the chance to grind the same skills as everyone else.
Likely, there will be two main archtypes in PFO, Crafters and Adventures, with Adventures making up the bulk of the populace. Crafters wont likely have the need, and therefore the desire, level up their "ride exotic mounts" skill sets. Adventures would have to to remain competitive in a PvP environment and therefore that skill set would become mandatory to anyone that couldn't obtain flying through other means, like spells, potions, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can anyone in EVE build a Titan, or only those with the skills to do so?
I dunno about how complicated an air combat system needs to be. If your attacks have ranges, then get in range and use them. If a guy's flying and you want to kill him, fly within range or wait for him to land within range. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?
Primarally because if you are talking about flying, you are talking about being able to be out of range. Ground vs Air, ground cannot hit air end of story, melees can't reach them, ranged obviously wouldn't be able to keep up etc... Now if 90% of the world is on flying mounts, then yes you are now talking about dogfighting firing arrows and spells off of a moving creature, the other person likely having a huge head start and a full all directions routes to avoid you.
As far as travel safety, I'd imagine it'd be just as safe as running around with a high stealth skill or invisibility. Gotta see someone to target them.
Hence also why most any game with a stealth skill, have a drawback or a counter to them, the P&P game you have characters with high spot/listen, creatures with scent, and you generally either cannot be stealthed 100% of a trip, or you move so ridiculously slow it would take ages to get anywhere, Spells that can detect you etc... Short of a complicated on flying mount chase, what route will allow a character with a flying mount to be ambushed
I'm not saying it shouldn't be something it takes a while to get. It would kind of ruin it if all you had to do was go talk to the Sable company NPC and boom you're in.
Not making it an option at all would suck. Wouldn't be a game ruiner, but it would suck.
All imho, of course.
While I do see your point that more then 1 country would have them, they still wouldn't be standard. Something that game-breaking would become standard as nobody could compete in any field without them. Traders, fighters, harvesters... all would be at enormous disadvantages without something that much more powerful then an unflighted individual. And well now if we are talking all ranged combat working in flight, welp goodbye melee classes altogether, we now have a fantasy setting dog-fighting game, as obviously a melee class would just be getting sniped from above nonstop.
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i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.
I'd rather sacrifice the cheesy flying taxi service for teleportation at higher levels. Similar to the way it was done Everquest, to certain arcane site or druid circles via wizard or druid spell. No NPC fast travel please!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's more than just about having the skills to ride and train an exotic mount. How rare are griffons and hippogriffs in Golaron? Would you just go to Ye Ol' Griffinmart and shell out 1000pp or would you have to capture one yourself? How difficult would that be to do solo? How often would they spawn? How long before exotic becomes common place?
You're already talking about a game in which tens of thousands of professional adventurers occupy a space the size of a single modern city.
Who cares how rare they're "supposed" to be.
You know what one of the things that makes D&D so much fun is?
The fact that your party are the heroes.
You and your fellow party members are the stars of the show. You get all the cool things. You are unique in the game world, because you're the only stars of the show. Everyone else is an NPC. They might have some cool things, but they won't have as many cool things as you have.
This breaks down utterly in an MMO.
Instead of five heroes who are the stars of the show, you now have tens of thousands. But everyone still wants to have cool things. So you give them cool things! Who cares if those things are "supposed" to be rare in the tabletop game. This is an MMO - if we wanted to make a "realistic" game, you'd be running into bakers and stablehands more often than professional adventurers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.I'd rather have cool things than not have cool things. Let everyone who puts in the requisite effort (whatever that may be) have the cool things.
I am actually going to agree with SB on this one, but I doubt he will agree with me =). Griffons and Dragons are rare anyways, but to catch on and train it for riding...at minimum, we are talking master animal handling (probably with magical assistance) and master riding...both of which should be on par with a master crafter and/or sword fighter. And this is before the actual capture/breaking/training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.I'd rather have cool things than not have cool things. Let everyone who puts in the requisite effort (whatever that may be) have the cool things.
when everyone has cool things, do they still stay cool? but, sure, why not, lets have air combat, and we can have flying mounts. air combat is cool too.
Who cares how rare they're "supposed" to be.
Not sure where I was unclear on this but: I DO.
This is an MMO - if we wanted to make a "realistic" game, you'd be running into bakers and stablehands more often than professional adventurers.
Okay Scott, you've sold me! Let's make it a realistic MMO!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's more than just about having the skills to ride and train an exotic mount. How rare are griffons and hippogriffs in Golaron? Would you just go to Ye Ol' Griffinmart and shell out 1000pp or would you have to capture one yourself? How difficult would that be to do solo? How often would they spawn? How long before exotic becomes common place?You're already talking about a game in which tens of thousands of professional adventurers occupy a space the size of a single modern city.
Who cares how rare they're "supposed" to be.
You know what one of the things that makes D&D so much fun is?
The fact that your party are the heroes.
You and your fellow party members are the stars of the show. You get all the cool things. You are unique in the game world, because you're the only stars of the show. Everyone else is an NPC. They might have some cool things, but they won't have as many cool things as you have.
This breaks down utterly in an MMO.
Instead of five heroes who are the stars of the show, you now have tens of thousands. But everyone still wants to have cool things. So you give them cool things! Who cares if those things are "supposed" to be rare in the tabletop game. This is an MMO - if we wanted to make a "realistic" game, you'd be running into bakers and stablehands more often than professional adventurers.
Agreed but I still hold to the mechanics, what breaks what is added side of things. How do you keep wilderness travel dangerous and difficult, with flying mounts? Does now everyone become a flying archer/wizard? Once you introduce flying travel, that means the only way to not eliminate ambushes is flying combat. Once you introduce flying combat, you negate ground based combat. Now we've turned the combat system into exactly eve, swords, bah who needs swords I just keep flying away and firing arrows backwards mid-flight. (If you have to stop to fire, then how is someone supposed to ever catch someone flying by trying to avoid the fight.)
I am in favor of adding cool things, but it also is a matter of looking at what else breaks when you add it, and is it worth it. In a game where getting places is intended to be a challenge, trivializing the process, can completely ruin a very large core necessity of the game.
In WoW the idea of getting to your destination is a moot point. It is skipable, that's why teleportation, summons etc... are all so easy to get. In Eve and PFO, taking items to different places is supposed to be a challenge, that's why the developers stated for the best use of an item, you will have to take it to several different places.
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Goblin Squad Member
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when everyone has cool things, do they still stay cool?i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.I'd rather have cool things than not have cool things. Let everyone who puts in the requisite effort (whatever that may be) have the cool things.
Yes.
Yes.when everyone has cool things, do they still stay cool?i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.I'd rather have cool things than not have cool things. Let everyone who puts in the requisite effort (whatever that may be) have the cool things.
Do the complication that would arise with Open PvP concern you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed but I still hold to the mechanics, what breaks what is added side of things. How do you keep wilderness travel dangerous and difficult, with flying mounts?
By the time someone has advanced to the point where they have consistent access to a flying mount, wilderness travel probably doesn't have much to offer them in the way of danger, anyway.
Does now everyone become a flying archer/wizard? Once you introduce flying travel, that means the only way to not eliminate ambushes is flying combat. Once you introduce flying combat, you negate ground based combat. Now we've turned the combat system into exactly eve, swords, bah who needs swords I just keep flying away and firing arrows backwards mid-flight.
I think you're kind of running away with this one. Worrying about "eliminating ambushes" strikes me as a little premature given how little we know of the PvP situation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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when everyone has cool things, do they still stay cool? but, sure, why not, lets have air combat, and we can have flying mounts. air combat is cool too.i'd rather sacrifice flying mounts only for fixed routes and/or special occasions, than let everyone have one.I'd rather have cool things than not have cool things. Let everyone who puts in the requisite effort (whatever that may be) have the cool things.
Actually, that brings up a really good point. Many will not go get a flying mount because they would instead put the time and effort into become a master meleer or a master bow user...or even a master blacksmith. A dragon rider would be a huge time and effort investment. So, the consideration is what use would a dragon/griffon rider be once you make it? If the mounts could carry passengers/cargo, you have a taxi service like WoW (albeit PC run)...the player flys where you need to go. You could also have a messenger system, for those who would like to coordinate attacks and the such (or you could just have default telepathy). Or, dragons have a flame weapon, you have a really cool siege weapon. Even if your player cannot hold a melee weapon to save their life, the player could be hired to defend or attack holdings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed but I still hold to the mechanics, what breaks what is added side of things. How do you keep wilderness travel dangerous and difficult, with flying mounts? Does now everyone become a flying archer/wizard? Once you introduce flying travel, that means the only way to not eliminate ambushes is flying combat. Once you introduce flying combat, you negate ground based combat. Now we've turned the combat system into exactly eve, swords, bah who needs swords I just keep flying away and firing arrows backwards mid-flight. (If you have to stop to fire, then how is someone supposed to ever catch someone flying by...
YOu make it such a time/effort sink that not many will do...but people can if they decide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay Scott, you've sold me! Let's make it a realistic MMO!I hear that real life is a pretty realistic MMO. I mean, it's grindy as hell, but that's realism for you.
If there were magic, dragons, damsels in distress, and the lack of permadeath...I would not be in this forum.
By the time someone has advanced to the point where they have consistent access to a flying mount, wilderness travel probably doesn't have much to offer them in the way of danger, anyway.
This assumes you are out leveling your defense skills to. The logic of this statement makes it sound as if a Medical Doctor should not have to worry about Wild Animals while wandering in Africa because he has been grinding a skill for 10 years.
Do the complication that would arise with Open PvP concern you?The idea of open PvP concerns me to begin with.
Right, me too. You do know it might add an additional layer of crapiness to Open PvP? I hate to use WoW as an example here but it's not uncommon for a lvl 80 player to swoop down from on high, dismount, one shot a player that's much lower level and mount up and take to the skies again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, that brings up a really good point. Many will not go get a flying mount because they would instead put the time and effort into become a master meleer or a master bow user...or even a master blacksmith. A dragon rider would be a huge time and effort investment. So, the consideration is what use would a dragon/griffon rider be once you make it? If the mounts could carry passengers/cargo, you have a taxi service like WoW (albeit PC run)...the player flys where you need to go. You could also have a messenger system, for those who would like to coordinate attacks and the such (or you could just have default telepathy). Or, dragons have a flame weapon, you have a really cool siege weapon. Even if your player cannot hold a melee weapon to save their life, the player could be hired to defend or attack holdings.
But the thing is, with dragons/griffons etc... as options.. Why would you ever become a master melee, your free cannon fodder to be sniped from above all day long, as a bowman you have a shot, but still a significant disadvantage against a flying bowman. A master melee is pretty much screwed. "Oh yeah... well if you come down here I can kill you with my sword in one shot... Ow... Come on down here ya coward Ow...
What exactly can a melee fighter do, that a dragon rider couldn't?
Melee vs ranged, the melee has to close the distance to get the upper hand, melee vs flyer... uhhh the melee has to defy the laws of physics or be a flyer himself.
YOu make it such a time/effort sink that not many will do...but people can if they decide.
Then it becomes the prefect griefer build.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, that brings up a really good point. Many will not go get a flying mount because they would instead put the time and effort into become a master meleer or a master bow user...or even a master blacksmith. A dragon rider would be a huge time and effort investment. So, the consideration is what use would a dragon/griffon rider be once you make it? If the mounts could carry passengers/cargo, you have a taxi service like WoW (albeit PC run)...the player flys where you need to go. You could also have a messenger system, for those who would like to coordinate attacks and the such (or you could just have default telepathy). Or, dragons have a flame weapon, you have a really cool siege weapon. Even if your player cannot hold a melee weapon to save their life, the player could be hired to defend or attack holdings.
But the thing is, with dragons/griffons etc... as options.. Why would you ever become a master melee, your free cannon fodder to be sniped from above all day long, as a bowman you have a shot, but still a significant disadvantage against a flying bowman. A master melee is pretty much screwed. "Oh yeah... well if you come down here I can kill you with my sword in one shot... Ow... Come on down here ya coward Ow...
What exactly can a melee fighter do, that a dragon rider couldn't?
Actually storm the castle. The point was, the effort involved in getting this flying mount would leave no time for other adventuring stuff...so not many would do it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right, me too. You do know it might add an additional layer of crapiness to Open PvP? I hate to use WoW as an example here but it's not uncommon for a lvl 80 player to swoop down from on high, dismount, one shot a player that's much lower level and mount up and take to the skies again.Do the complication that would arise with Open PvP concern you?The idea of open PvP concerns me to begin with.
which is only natural, because every other high-level already has flying mount and can escape on time. being starved makes everyone desperate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually storm the castle. The point was, the effort involved in getting this flying mount would leave no time for other adventuring stuff...so not many would do it.
Why couldn't they storm the castle anyway, once they've plinked everyone off on the ground, since when can hypogriffins not walk, and dragons not damage the structure of the castle? or wizards not fire whatever spells they have into the windows and then walk in, or heck a flyer could just camp out over the city and force everyone indoors until they get fed up and surrender.
If the end result is clearly a guaranteed way to walk on everyone else, and the only way to prevent the people who have it from walking all over you, everyone will delay their adventuring stuff until they have it, then start the adventuring stuff and complete it in 1/8th the time once they have their flying mounts.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How long can a griffon bear a rider? How long can a slightly wounded griffon bear a rider who is trying to cast a spell or fire a bow, and how hard is it to concentrate on a spell or aim a ranged weapon while riding a flying creature? Is it possible to fly in one direction and attack in another? How many spells, alchemical items, or mundane items can dismount or otherwise neutralize someone who is trying to fight from a mount:
Daze, Grease (on the saddle/stirrup, obscuring mist, Hypnotism, Sleep, Color Spray, Animate Rope, Enlarge Person (on the rider), Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, Gust of Wind, Hypnotic Pattern, Blindness/Deafness, Sleet Storm, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Slow... Tanglefoot bags, rope (Lasso either the mount or the rider)...
(That's only from the sor/wiz low-level spells, and most of them either completely negate the ability to attack or fly at ground level (Fog Cloud), or can target either the rider or the mount or both with a save-or-lose (color spray, blindness/deafness, slow, daze monster).
A flying mount has a lot of disadvantages- they just need to be implemented properly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do the complication that would arise with Open PvP concern you?The idea of open PvP concerns me to begin with.
Well lets take PVP out for a second and ask, how would you handle the PVE side of it? Do you make 95% of enemies ranged? How do you stop a player from trivially eliminating every enemy without ranged attacks by flying over them, without putting every enemy of worth inside of a cave?
How do you make travel a challenge from anything, whether enemies or players when you add unlimited flight?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since when does every single minute spent in an MMO need to be a challenge?
To answer your question though, in other MMOs they have flying NPCs that can give chase if you're still low enough level to aggro them.
So you either engagethem or you fly around them and avoid them, jsut like you would on the ground.
A non-issue, really.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually storm the castle. The point was, the effort involved in getting this flying mount would leave no time for other adventuring stuff...so not many would do it.
Why couldn't they storm the castle anyway, once they've plinked everyone off on the ground, since when can hypogriffins not walk, and dragons not damage the structure of the castle? or wizards not fire whatever spells they have into the windows and then walk in, or heck a flyer could just camp out over the city and force everyone indoors until they get fed up and surrender.
If the end result is clearly a guaranteed way to walk on everyone else, and the only way to prevent the people who have it from walking all over you, everyone will delay their adventuring stuff until they have it, then start the adventuring stuff and complete it in 1/8th the time once they have their flying mounts.
Because, by making this a time consuming endeavor, someone who has spent their entire gaming experience training a pet will not be able to go toe to toe with the defenders of the castle who have spent their entire gaming experience adventuring and training their melee/archery/magic.
The flying mount would become a glorified siege engine in this case. I am not sure how having a great catapult equals guaranteed way to walk on everyone else...especially when the drivers of this catapult can do nothing else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since when does every single minute spent in an MMO need to be a challenge?
To answer your question though, in other MMOs they have flying NPCs that can give chase if you're still low enough level to aggro them.
So you either engagethem or you fly around them and avoid them, jsut like you would on the ground.A non-issue, really.
Every minute no, High risk areas need to be high risk areas though, being unambushable by both players and NPCs when traveling through a "high risk" area, on the other hand is a bit of a flaw. Unless we just start making every high risk area filled with giant hordes of flying enemies.
The player ambushes are where I have more issues then the monster areas, Mainly everything I have heard Ryan describe of the goals of the game. Traveling to certain areas, and possibly from town to town, is intended to be a risk activity. Flight eliminates almost all the risk of travel, limits the areas where you can be ambushed to nearly nothing, so now travel is safe, the economy can now be reduced to a universal economy (since well getting items from where they are cheapest is a safe easy activity).