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The way some of the threads lately are going it seems that since some board members don't want a game where walking out of town puts a bulleyes on your head we are killing the experience.
Well I'm a Carebear and proud of it I work 40+ hours a week have a young child and a wife in addition to a weekly game i run so i don't have time to be the best at fighting other tactics.
I'm not against PvP but i am against it when I can't choose.
I'll also say now I am completly against looting players this only sets those of us who can't spend a working playing back everytime we get killed.
So go ahead and post if your a Carebear and proud of it.
Carebear is an insulting term made by immature PvP-crazed brats and griefers anyway. I prefer the more eloquent PvEer, which seems to be similar to the PvPer. Oh, and if they want to keep calling us carebears, I would just as gladly call them griefers, no-lives or a******s, which seem appropriate to me judging from what PvPers have done to me and my pals in games that have both consensual and non-consensual PvP in them.
Then again, I am a PvEer and proud of it. Call me a Carebear if that helps you identify me, but don't expect me to give you any respect if you do so (unless you are also a person who prefers PvE and fair PvP over nonconsensual trollfests).
Hello, People Who Will Be Wishing My Mother Didn't Have a Sex Life. ;-)
Do you mean her having one now or before your birth cuz thats a huge difference.
I won't need to worry about you if we play on different servers :3
If that's the case, I either...
A) Will not play.
B) Avoid you at all costs.
C) Ask you to join a group with me and topple some forest drakes.
The Eve system caters well to both crowds.
You find less people complaining about PvP rules on EvE than you do on a WoW PvP server...and they choose to play there lol.
~shrugs~ Good. All I ask is that the PVE and PVP mix be done right. I think both are going to be needed for the game to work.
So go ahead and post if your a Carebear and proud of it.
That's me. I'll even go one step further and say that MMOs would be great if it weren't for all of those pesky other players out there.
Maybe I can get my own server if I ask nicely. :-)
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Personally, I wear the label of Carebear proudly.
Okay seriously, no lie (from reading my posts you might not believe it). I played on Prexus in EQ since 2000, then on Medivh in WoW, from launch to today. Medivh as a whole was the first server to open the AQ gates with both Alliance and Horde teaming up and swapping supplies. Someone even photoshopped the Carebears holding runecloth bandages, healing potions, etc.
The way some of the threads lately are going it seems that since some board members don't want a game where walking out of town puts a bulleyes on your head we are killing the experience.
That's why you hire someone like me to guard you.
Well I'm a Carebear and proud of it I work 40+ hours a week have a young child and a wife in addition to a weekly game i run so i don't have time to be the best at fighting other tactics.
I'm not a father, but I am 32 and also work 40+ hours a week. 2 weeks out of every month I am somewhere in the US or Canada on business with a laptop that can't play games (okay, Terraria at 5 fps, and Fallout 1 & 2). My game time is also precious...although that children thing means you still have less time. :)
I'm not against PvP but i am against it when I can't choose.
I'll also say now I am completly against looting players this only sets those of us who can't spend a working playing back everytime we get killed.
So go ahead and post if your a Carebear and proud of it.
There are other threads on this, so I'll just say I'm for non-consensual PvP because the game is designed from the ground up with it in mind (as opposed to WoW, Rift, etc. where is it an addition).
Goblinworks Founder
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I'm not a father, but I am 32 and also work 40+ hours a week. 2 weeks out of every month I am somewhere in the US or Canada on business with a laptop that can't play games (okay, Terraria at 5 fps, and Fallout 1 & 2). My game time is also precious...although that children thing means you still have less time.
I am in a similar situation. I am 33 (married w/o kids)and just retired from ten years military service where I was working between 40-70 hours per week. I am changing careers in the new year where I will be working 40 hours a week with additional study out of hours (I'm told it's about 10 hours per week study).
I am also pro non-consensual PvP on the condition that the game is designed for it from the ground up. I am actually against non-consensual PvP if the game is not designed for it (WoW, Rift, SW_ToR). There also needs to be a system in place to protect the server from total domination by any one guild. I believe it can be done in such a way that players of all creeds can coexist on the one server. We just need to give them a chance.
Goblin Squad Member
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30 years old, 58 hour working week, 7 cats ..... hnnnnnnnngh. And yes, dammit, I am a carebear and loving it. Back before LFG came into WoW I'd be spending at least two or three hours every week running people through Ragefire Chasm or Wailing Caverns or other low-level instances in my RP gear, trying to get people into the Roleplaying Mindset and handing out bags and coin.
Dammit, Care-Bearing is fun, and while I am a bit unsure of Non-consentual PvP (Which can either be 'Death to the Bots!' or 'Troll Teabagging Hell', depending upon how it can be implemented) I will admit that going out on your own could be quite an interesting experience. Not only do you have to watch out for larger groups of NPCs, which you might not be able to kill solo, but higher-level Players could also be out there, and you have to weigh up the risk vs reward of getting noticed by them.
Is it a Care-Bear Player who might talk to you, trade you some items or keep an eye on you and save you from a group of Hostile NPCs, maybe even point you in the right direction of a resource node that's too low-level for them to be interested in?
Is it a Player-Killer who will wait until you're too close to get away and then kill you, take your stuff or corpse-camp you till they get bored or have to log off or otherwise put a lot of effort into ruining your day?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Join a guild who punishes griefers and gankers. ...
As a matter of fact, I just put up a post about forming a guild, since that seems the way to get into the earliest renditions of the game and start giving serious feedback.
I'm a veteran beta-tester, I'm 32, and I'm also a part-time father. I'd be happy to have a few more on hand who also think PvP is for settling duels and not for 'ganking newbs lol'.
Though I do appreciate the EVE model, and think it's been working fantasmagorically well in Champions as well...
All players, one server, no unique names, surnames unique but shared through adoption and marriage anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking as a person who favors open non-consensual PvP and who might ordinarily be branded as a 'Player-Killer' due to the divide... I must say that I fall into the 'Care-Bear' category as you've defined it here Heavy.
I was about to say the same thing. Aiding people in a truly dangerous world is how real friendships are generated in online platforms. Any Ultima Player can relate to the bonds formed as you met your first friends in Sosaria. It was truly dangerous. You trusted people. Trust is the key ingredient to a fruitful relationship and one aspect of offering a powerful MMORPG experience.
During my time spent in dangerous environments, social interactions and friendships in Eve, Darkfall or Ultima are experiences which have stuck out, both good and bad. Games allow for equal measures of charity and kindness as they do hatred and aggression.
Charity is common place, kindness and guidance is given and cherished by those who receive it as they are valuable commodities in a dangerous world. I cannot recall any interactions in safe games which share any of the qualities these experiences offered.
In summation: You had to of experienced the strange social platform which exists in a dangerous game in order for you to experience how much it can bring.
I am historically a PVE player. Mostly due to mind numbing griefing in the past. I am all for people playing a game their way for fun until it impedes on others having fun.
I personally feel if the game is going to have open world PVP it should be consensual flagged only. Maybe make it so the flag can only be changed once per day or week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i think Urlithani hit the nail on the head for me, its designed for PvP. I've played plenty of mmos and like both pvp and pve when done right. as far as pvp i think WAR got it down pat, tiered areas but constant pvp.
i knew it was all pvp based and was on the fence about it after playing mostly pve games. the thing is though, armed with this knowledge i got the game and started playing, and you know what, i loved it. the number of fun times i had attacking and defending the various keeps with other sentient people made me sad to see the player base disappear because of lack of content updates.
i have yet to see in any game the roving bands of psychopathic teens everyone keeps talking about, sure ive been killed and camped for a bit but thats the nature of the game and even those times are few and far between. it never kept me from enjoying the game so all i am saying is give pvp a chance, you may actually enjoy it.
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Goblinworks Founder
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i think Urlithani hit the nail on the head for me, its designed for PvP. I've played plenty of mmos and like both pvp and pve when done right. as far as pvp i think WAR got it down pat, tiered areas but constant pvp.
i knew it was all pvp based and was on the fence about it after playing mostly pve games. the thing is though, armed with this knowledge i got the game and started playing, and you know what, i loved it. the number of fun times i had attacking and defending the various keeps with other sentient people made me sad to see the player base disappear because of lack of content updates.
i have yet to see in any game the roving bands of psychopathic teens everyone keeps talking about, sure ive been killed and camped for a bit but thats the nature of the game and even those times are few and far between. it never kept me from enjoying the game so all i am saying is give pvp a chance, you may actually enjoy it.
When a game is designed for world PvP it is designed to make PvP fun.
That is why Warhammer was fun. World PvP in world of warcraft or Rift is not fun because it is not by design. PvP in those games are the battleground scenarios and warfronts that are merely a mini-game for competitive players. The World PvP of those games has far more "gank/griefing" than I ever faced in Age of Conan or Warhammer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would enjoy a system Similar to the EVE security rating system... with a large enough world, there could be Kingdoms that have regular patrols that would prevent PVP, but as you move further into the wilderness, the patrols get less and less, and eventually your left with defending yourself from goblins and Players alike.
a "Level-less" system would in many ways make it more even to prevent the level 90's greifing level 1's who wonder out to far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed, Col_Wolfe. In certain 'regions' PvP should be limited to specific venues such as arenas and the like, or risk your unsanctioned PvP bringing Guards along to break up the fight, and likely a few heads in the process.
However an open world must be without rules to a certain extent. Leave the town, and all bets are off. Stick to the roads, and you'll be reasonably safe from all but the biggest of the bad-boys who can kill you and any Guards/NPCs that are passing by. Go off into the wilderness and all bets are off.
That said, and going for a 'Devil's Advocate' approach here, having only established towns and the immediate region (100 'feet' from town for example) being excluded from the non-consentual PvP aspect, killing NPCs and Players should net you some gold and, depending upon the level, XP perhaps. Not as much as being a 'proper' Adventurer, but in conjunction with the whole "kill the dragon, chat up the princess, collect the reward" we seem to do every so often it might give these so-called 'Bandit Clans' something new to do.
Imagine Players are able to craft everything they need, from shelter and food to weapons, armor, potions and magical items. Think of twenty players getting together, clearing out a cave in the forest and building themselves some crude defensive structures such as a log palisade and some barricades. Next comes a forge, then an apothacary's workshop, so on and so forth, until they have a little base. They might even go so far as to send in an ally to buy the 'land' they have settled (since they are all likely sentenced to hang by this stage) and buy it off him for a small bonus in his pocket.
A month or two of hard work, and the Bloody Fist Bandit Clan is firmly entrenched with their own Shrine to resurrect at, all the crafting stations and materials they will need to repair and equip themselves, taken from the environment or NPC Caravans and they are good to go.
Not only does their 'owning' the land the cave is on prevent monsters spawning directly on top of them, but the Bandits are now possibly well known enough that other Players are out hunting them to get their own back for previous gankings or to do to the Bandits what the Bandits have been doing to the lower-leveled PCs, namely kill them for Gold, XP and bragging rights.
I would enjoy a system Similar to the EVE security rating system... with a large enough world, there could be Kingdoms that have regular patrols that would prevent PVP, but as you move further into the wilderness, the patrols get less and less, and eventually your left with defending yourself from goblins and Players alike.
a "Level-less" system would in many ways make it more even to prevent the level 90's greifing level 1's who wonder out to far.
That would work for me. I have no problem with Non-con PvP, if done right.
~thinks~ Ok. Where do I sign up to join the Bloody Fist Bandit Gang?
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Goblin Squad Member
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~thinks~ Ok. Where do I sign up to join the Bloody Fist Bandit Gang?
Think about it. Kingdoms have been built out of baser origins. And even rival Bandit Clans can skirmish/feud with each other. The only difference between an adventuring group's stronghold and a bandit clan's stronghold is you are slightly less likely to get shanked and ganked in the former than the later.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Imagine Players are able to craft everything they need, from shelter and food to weapons, armor, potions and magical items. Think of twenty players getting together, clearing out a cave in the forest and building themselves some crude defensive structures such as a log palisade and some barricades. Next comes a forge, then an apothacary's workshop, so on and so forth, until they have a little base. They might even go so far as to send in an ally to buy the 'land' they have settled (since they are all likely sentenced to hang by this stage) and buy it off him for a small bonus in his pocket.A month or two of hard work, and the Bloody Fist Bandit Clan is firmly entrenched with their own Shrine to resurrect at, all the crafting stations and materials they will need to repair and equip themselves, taken from the environment or NPC Caravans and they are good to go.
Not only does their 'owning' the land the cave is on prevent monsters spawning directly on top of...
What you mention here is something that I have wanted to see in a PC game for a very long time. Heck I would even like to do it in a PnP game.
Imagine if every dungeon and every ruin in the game could be cleared and then converted into your very own lair. You could essentially have your own little hideaway on the edge of civilization. Of course there's nothing to stop another player from trying to clear you out of the dungeon either. I wonder how many hermits have had this done to them before. Adventurers accusing some poor old recluse of being an evil wizard plotting against humanity in some dark secluded cave.
I truly do hope that villages can be created in this fashion just as they would be in a traditional village.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is because people that don't want to PvP don't play Eve...
I don't want PVP, but I have been active in Eve for over 3 years. PVP happens. but i prefer the choices Eve offers over the normal "powerlevel to 90- to raid the same dungeon 3x a week" games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ideally, the more you attack other players the greater your risk of being 'identified' by the NPCs. Every time you attack, there is an increasing % that you will be 'identified' and word will get around.
Do it in a region with laws, like farmlands and forests within an NPC kingdom, and you could get murder and/or assault charges on you, spend some time rotting in prison and have your skills decrease, your gear taken away and your gold confiscated. If you get out, your 'rep' will make most folk afraid of you. Good luck getting good prices or a room in a tavern, and the Guards are just itching to teach you a lesson.
Do it out in the forest and while the law might not be able to touch you, but the social stigma will spread, and the Guards will again be watching you like a hawk.
I also point to my 'Bounty' System for higher-level (higher 'skilled'?) players assaulting lower-level players. Griefing might be fun, but when you've got teams of other players hunting you down to kill you, decapitate you and take it back to town to be stuck on a pike, you're probably going to feel decidedly less epic.
I can just read the first bounty now "And an additional 50 gold for Trollololol's Head if it comes with an illustration of this flag inserted into the villain's posterior."
Griefers will grief no matter what sort of counter-measures the Programmers put in, so rather, make it profitable to make the Griefers feel most unwelcome and force them out of the Quest and Trading Hubs, but do not stop them from making their own equipment and supplies. Hurt them by forcing them to spend their online time to crafting just to survive, where the players who don't engage in 24/7 Douchebaggery get to enjoy EVERYTHING.
That said I fully vote for non-consentual PvP, but I would also vote for being able to toggle on a 'flag' of sorts. Without it, you're a victim. With the 'Flag' on, you're spoiling for a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another random cat-brawling induced thought:
Alignment vs Karma.
Alignment should be what you gain/lose from interacting with NPCs and the computer-generated world. Help the farmer protect his crops, gain Good Alignment points. Demand a hefty reward, gain neither Good nor Evil points. Stick him and steal the crops to sell yourself, Evil points.
Karma, on the other hand, I see as a way for the game to reward people who work with others and to 'punish' the Griefers, but not the PvPers.
You only gain Negative Karma killing other players in towns, villages and other 'safe' zones, or if you are repeatedly killing a player over and over and over again in a short amount of time, shared within groups so pack-ganking has an even greater cumulative effect on the Griefers.
Negative Karma is like a big old bundle of pain hovering above your head, held in place by a single strand of hair. At any time, that Karma could come loose and crush you, in battle, in trading, in crafting, any time where a chance of failure occurs, and we're not talking 'chipped a nail' failure, we're talking OH GODS, WHY?-level of Failure. Ideally, a griefer would have a % based upon how much Negative Karma they have attained, with the greater the Negative Karma, the higher the % of it all dropping on them at a crucial point.
Positive Karma, however, is the counterpart to this. Go help out other players. There should be a few methods of gaining Positive Karma, be it signing up to assist other players, putting in hours building a community structure or even going so far as to hand out some materials or items to lower level players and not taking a trade in return. Positive Karma functions much like Negative Karma, except instead of a colossal failure in your future, it can provide a single once-off bonus, such as your crafting producing a unique item or a treasure chest containing a material that you have been hunting for to level your Skill that one final point or even just an NPC going "Here, you're a nice guy, have a discount for this week."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another random cat-brawling induced thought:
Alignment vs Karma.
Alignment should be what you gain/lose from interacting with NPCs and the computer-generated world. Help the farmer protect his crops, gain Good Alignment points. Demand a hefty reward, gain neither Good nor Evil points. Stick him and steal the crops to sell yourself, Evil points.
Karma, on the other hand, I see as a way for the game to reward people who work with others and to 'punish' the Griefers, but not the PvPers.
You only gain Negative Karma killing other players in towns, villages and other 'safe' zones, or if you are repeatedly killing a player over and over and over again in a short amount of time, shared within groups so pack-ganking has an even greater cumulative effect on the Griefers.
Negative Karma is like a big old bundle of pain hovering above your head, held in place by a single strand of hair. At any time, that Karma could come loose and crush you, in battle, in trading, in crafting, any time where a chance of failure occurs, and we're not talking 'chipped a nail' failure, we're talking OH GODS, WHY?-level of Failure. Ideally, a griefer would have a % based upon how much Negative Karma they have attained, with the greater the Negative Karma, the higher the % of it all dropping on them at a crucial point.
Positive Karma, however, is the counterpart to this. Go help out other players. There should be a few methods of gaining Positive Karma, be it signing up to assist other players, putting in hours building a community structure or even going so far as to hand out some materials or items to lower level players and not taking a trade in return. Positive Karma functions much like Negative Karma, except instead of a colossal failure in your future, it can provide a single once-off bonus, such as your crafting producing a unique item or a treasure chest containing a material that you have been hunting for to level your Skill that one final point or even just an NPC going "Here, you're a nice guy, have a discount for...
Karma is a lovely thought, but it gets kinda sketchy eventually. The only way to judge what's helping or hurting is a player set voting. Which could just as easily be abused. 100 griefers get together, +Karma vote each-other, now they are all high karma to compensate for a long time of greifing. Secondly the risk of alts to compensate, Their trader/crafter alt never ventures into the world, never leaves town, just has his materials granted to him by the griefer (if you make karma account based they will just make the alts on separate accounts).
I think the innovation that set World of Warcraft apart from the crowd was this:
- At no time during play, does a player have anything at risk, other than the time currently being spent playing.
Almost all other games had or still have different ways to lose progress:
- Character death translated into loss of experience or levels; or perhaps even "permadeath" (everything is lost) after one or more consecutive character deaths
- Items carried could be dropped (perhaps on a random chance) on character death; getting an item back may range from expensive to impossible.
- Items could be stolen by other players; either directly off the character or from their "house" (if unguarded)
- Items could suffer durability "damage" and possibly become lost or broken beyond repair. [Note: WoW has a very minor form of this; but no items are permanently lost and they are always repaired inexpensively with respect to the character's income potential. (Main tanks on raids being an exception, but your guild is probably footing the bill.)]
- Money could be lost or stolen; off of a character or out of the bank.
In World of Warcraft, there is no real way to "lose progress". It is possible to waste time and/or to gain nothing. Players can certainly deliberately sabotage themselves; sell or destroy all of their equipment, for example. But any and all such losses occur due to explicit actions by the player. (i.e.: The player specifically indicates "Yes, I want to destroy Item X"; there exists no other force in the game that will do this to them or for them.)
I submit that this innovation (nothing at risk) is what made World of Warcraft the most successful MMO game of all time.
We can certainly argue if a risk-free game is the most fun kind of game or not. However, I do conjecture that no game will ever displace World of Warcraft (in terms of commercial success or popularity) without also adopting the "nothing at risk" innovation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the innovation that set World of Warcraft apart from the crowd was this:
- At no time during play, does a player have anything at risk, other than the time currently being spent playing.
...
all MMO have this. in effect, time is the only true resource in MMO. WOW only made it obvious, and reduced effect of it.