I'm much more interested in the Golarion flavor than the Pathfinder rules.
For me it's the exact contrary.
I absolutely dread seeing tall elves in this game...At this point, calling this online game 'Pathfinder Online' is no more (or less) accurate than calling it 'Palladium Online' or 'Rolemaster Online' or 'Hero System Online' or 'Atlantis Online' or whatever. It's an online interpretation of a pen-and-paper RPGThe term "Pathfinder" was already used by Paizo even before them creating their own system. It's also the name of the Campaign Setting (and that's where the term would be used for first). I'm probably alone with this but if I use the term "Pathfinder", I'm not talking about the system 90% of the time.
So as far as I'm concerned, The game playing in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting is the same as WoW playing in the world of Warcraft which makes the name "Pathfinder Online" pretty accurate.
Now if the Campaign Setting would be called the Golarion Campaign Setting and the APs would be the Golarion Adventure Paths, then it would make no sense to call the game Pathfinder Online without using the rules system. On the other hand, I'd fully expect the game then to be called Golarion Online because I don't care for the underlying rules system too much as long as it serves to enhance playability.
Technically you are right. But most people equate "Pathfinder" with the 3.75 ruleset Paizo developed and "Golarion" with the campaign setting.
I know A LOT of people (me included) that use the "Pathfinder" RPG rules to play other campaign settings. This can be homebrew or defunct/"butchered by 4th Edition" campaign settings.
In my case for example, I am an avid player of the 3.5 Forgotten Realms setting with Pathfinder rules.
Goblin Squad Member
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No matter the "facts" about whether "Pathfinder" equaled Golarion or equaled the ruleset first, everyone here will have a subjective opinion based on their experiences.
For instance, I have never played in the Golarion setting and knew nothing about it until this MMO was announced. Since then I have been reading on it. Pathfinder for me is an exceptional ruleset. Contrary to those who state it is simply 3.0 or 3.5...fine, but to me it is a much better system, streamlined and expanded exactly where needed. I have been playing P&PRPGs since the Fantasy Trip back in the early 80s and the Pathfinder ruleset is by far my favorite. It may only be the presentation...but hey, on public roads that is the difference between a Lamborghini and a Hyundai too.
Therefore, for me, Pathfinder is not a campaign setting. Saying such goes against the last 3-2 years of my life where I have played by the Pathfinder rules in our custom campaign world. I have never experienced the setting, so to me the rules are what is "Pathfinder".
I do understand those who did experience the full set of Pathfinder materials in the order of release would know Pathfinder was first a campaign setting, but that does not change my connotative definition of Pathfinder as simply the ruleset.
No amount of explaining the order of release will change my feelings on this...I understand the Pathfinder was the name of a campaign setting prior to being the exceptional ruleset.
Likewise, I understand no amount of arguing will convince those who view Pathfinder as a campaign setting will convince them to accept it as a simple ruleset. Especially since they have "history" on their side.
But, I think the point of this thread was to get a general feel about what the community thinks.
Look at it this way, from my perspective my friends and I play Pathfinder in our custom campaign, changing the setting would not change the fact that we are playing Pathfinder (we even call our game Pathfinder now)...while changing to 4e would. We would no longer be playing Pathfinder, we would be playing 4e. To the other crowd, the opposite is true, Golarion aka Pathfinder could be played with any ruleset and therefore is independent of them. In both cases, it is dependent entirely upon ones experience with the game.
For me it will make a difference because of my (admittedly false) feelings of what is and is not Pathfinder based upon my experiences. However, I am excited for Golarion Online, no matter what it is called...and any similarity to the Pathfinder Ruleset will just be a bonus.
Sorry this is so long, just trying to defend myself from every angle.
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Technically you are right. But most people equate "Pathfinder" with the 3.75 ruleset Paizo developed and "Golarion" with the campaign setting.
I know A LOT of people (me included) that use the "Pathfinder" RPG rules to play other campaign settings. This can be homebrew or defunct/"butchered by 4th Edition" campaign settings.
In my case for example, I am an avid player of the 3.5 Forgotten Realms setting with Pathfinder rules.
The Pathfiner System is very good but it is by no means perfect and the fine folks at Paizo would probably be among the first to admit it. What is however very excellent and well done is the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. I won't presume to speak for anyone else by claiming that a lot of people share my belief that its a great setting. I know many of my friends like it quite a lot - to the point where they don't want to play other settings.
For me the game is Pathfinder I can be a monk who performs a Flury of Blows attack or an evoker who launches Force Missiles at his foes.
Incidentally "3.75" is never used in any marketing by Paizo.
We could also mention the absolute impossibility of implementing the Pathfinder System into a persistant single server non-instanced world that is the stated design goal but that would only be rehashing what's already been said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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just trying to defend myself from every angle.
No need to, you're fully entitled to have your own opinion.
But apart from what I said in my previous post, there's another thing why the "Pathfinder" in Pathfinder Online should be understood as referring to the setting, not to the system, that I already hinted at with my WOW reference. With the notable exception of DDO, basically all MMO titles I can remember point to the setting, not to the underlying rules system/game engine. I guess that's due to the simple reason that most players don't care too much about mechanics but about the actual content of the game. So even if they would use the PFRPG mechanics in the game, the name of the game would still refer to the setting not the system.
And to be perfectly honest: the game not being "Pathfinder" mechanically will most probably lead to a better game experience, because they can use a rules system actually working within the confines of an MMO instead. The PFRPG rules aren't written with an MMO in mind so using it wouldn't be the best solution most of the time.
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Incidentally "3.75" is never used in any marketing by Paizo.
But that is exactly my point. I know they didn't use "3.75" for marketing. I had to use it for want of a different word than "Pathfinder" to describe the rule set.
The Pathfiner System is very good but it is by no means perfect and the fine folks at Paizo would probably be among the first to admit it. What is however very excellent and well done is the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. I won't presume to speak for anyone else by claiming that a lot of people share my belief that its a great setting. I know many of my friends like it quite a lot - to the point where they don't want to play other settings.
The Pathfinder rule set is, hands down, the best P&P RPG rule set out there. This is not true for the Campaign Setting.
In fact, I would use your description of the rule set to describe the Campaign Setting: "very good but (...) by no means perfect".While the Campaign Setting has many good points - I especially like its overall mature feel - it is by no means as good as many older or contemporary settings.
In my opinion, its main flaw is the artificial feel of how the world was put together. It has countries/regions that are too theme based. You have a vampire land, a devil land, a demon land, a goody-two-shoes land, a pirate land, a wild magic land, a science-fiction land, a revolution land, a witch land, a viking land, a barbarian land, an orc land, a paladin land, a fake-religious-cult land, etc, etc. These different locales just scream "theme based campaign".
Contrast that with campaign settings that have a much more organic composition, like the 3.5 Forgotten Realms (incidentally, a large part of why 4e destroyed the FR setting is the forceful introduction of "theme based campaign" regions).
And, sure, the 3.5 FR also had some cliche regions (which Golarion also has: a pharaoh land, a dinosaur jungle land, an Arabian Nights land, an elf land), but they were the distinct minority and generally didn't disturb the picture of an organic campaign setting.
Oh, and then there's the tall elves...
If ever there was a bad design decision to single out, then it would be the tall elves. Even after well over 3 years of playing Pathfinder, I still have to shake my head incredulously every time I see them...
We could also mention the absolute impossibility of implementing the Pathfinder System into a persistant single server non-instanced world that is the stated design goal but that would only be rehashing what's already been said.
Well, for my part, I'm not insisting on a 100% total implementation of the rules. My wish would be that the mechanics implemented are as close as possible to the rule set, while taking into account that it is a real time game. Just like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights adapted their respective editions to fit the computer game environement.
It just doesn't make sense for elves to be that tall. And I'm not talking about being about as tall as humans (I have no problem with that). What I mean is that we have an elf that is as tall as a half-orc (say 6'8") but weighs LESS THAN HALF (148 vs 304 lbs)! This means we get elves that essentially are walking skeletons. Ridiculous. Not to mention that such an emaciated being could never ever have a +2 DEX bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It just doesn't make sense for elves to be that tall. And I'm not talking about being about as tall as humans (I have no problem with that). What I mean is that we have an elf that is as tall as a half-orc (say 6'8") but weighs LESS THAN HALF (148 vs 304 lbs)!
When I was 19, I was 6'6", weighted about 170-180, was in the best shape of my life. I got sick the summer I turned 20, and bottomed out at 165. I didn't look to great but I played racquetball thrice a week, ran or biked 5-10 miles a week, and played basketball almost every day.
Assuming a bit different psiology (lighter bones perhaps) I could have been that elf.
Today, I've morphed into the half-orc. :)
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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It just doesn't make sense for elves to be that tall. And I'm not talking about being about as tall as humans (I have no problem with that). What I mean is that we have an elf that is as tall as a half-orc (say 6'8") but weighs LESS THAN HALF (148 vs 304 lbs)!When I was 19, I was 6'6", weighted about 170-180, was in the best shape of my life. I got sick the summer I turned 20, and bottomed out at 165. I didn't look to great but I played racquetball thrice a week, ran or biked 5-10 miles a week, and played basketball almost every day.
Assuming a bit different psiology (lighter bones perhaps) I could have been that elf.
Today, I've morphed into the half-orc. :)
RyanD
*Bro-Fists*
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The Pathfinder rule set is, hands down, the best P&P RPG rule set out there. This is not true for the Campaign Setting.
In fact, I would use your description of the rule set to describe the Campaign Setting: "very good but (...) by no means perfect".While the Campaign Setting has many good points - I especially like its overall mature feel - it is by no means as good as many older or contemporary settings.
I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. The'res no shortage of people willing to defend the Pathfinder Campaign Setting as the best thing since sliced bread on more relevant areas of these broads.
Well, for my part, I'm not insisting on a 100% total implementation of the rules. My wish would be that the mechanics implemented are as close as possible to the rule set, while taking into account that it is a real time game. Just like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights adapted their respective editions to fit the computer game environement.
I find both those games severely lacking compared to equivalent systems developed for use in video games at the same time such as Deus Ex and Fallout.
The Temple of Elemental Evil is the only reasonably satisfactory implementation of D&D mechanics into a computer game that I have experienced and its fairly clear that adapting that style of play to an MMO would be disastrously bad.
Edit: I take that back. Planescape: Torment was also a lot of fun. It played so fast and loose with the rules as to be a bit silly at times. It still managed to tell a compelling story though.
It just doesn't make sense for elves to be that tall. And I'm not talking about being about as tall as humans (I have no problem with that). What I mean is that we have an elf that is as tall as a half-orc (say 6'8") but weighs LESS THAN HALF (148 vs 304 lbs)! This means we get elves that essentially are walking skeletons. Ridiculous. Not to mention that such an emaciated being could never ever have a +2 DEX bonus.
In high school, I was considered pretty average weight at 6' and 165lbs. I had a friend who was 6'10" and weighed the same. We had annother friend who was 6'7" and almost ~350lbs, and he didn't look too out of shape.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It just doesn't make sense for elves to be that tall. And I'm not talking about being about as tall as humans (I have no problem with that). What I mean is that we have an elf that is as tall as a half-orc (say 6'8") but weighs LESS THAN HALF (148 vs 304 lbs)! This means we get elves that essentially are walking skeletons. Ridiculous. Not to mention that such an emaciated being could never ever have a +2 DEX bonus.
Or...it could be that they are a different race entirely, and they have more efficient muscles...or any other number of possible make believe reasons, since hey, they're elves.
When I was 19, I was 6'6", weighted about 170-180, was in the best shape of my life. I got sick the summer I turned 20, and bottomed out at 165. I didn't look to great but I played racquetball thrice a week, ran or biked 5-10 miles a week, and played basketball almost every day.
Assuming a bit different psiology (lighter bones perhaps) I could have been that elf.
Today, I've morphed into the half-orc. :)
RyanD
You were doing all those sports activities while you were sick?!? Yikes, you're tough as nails.
Anyway, the lighter bones fall flat, since the taller a creature the higher the bone mass is, as well as the total skeletal mass to body mass ratio. Giraffes are an excellent example for this, their bone walls are almost 3 times as thick as other animals in their weight category (buffalo). The reason for this is that the taller a being the more the body weight is spread out and thus the more the bones have to carry.
Not to mention that even at your lowest, the elf weighs 17 lbs less AND is 2" taller. ;-)
I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. The'res no shortage of people willing to defend the Pathfinder Campaign Setting as the best thing since sliced bread on more relevant areas of these broads.
Well, of course. This IS the Pathfinder forum after all.
I find both those games severely lacking compared to equivalent systems developed for use in video games at the same time such as Deus Ex and Fallout.
The Temple of Elemental Evil is the only reasonably satisfactory implementation of D&D mechanics into a computer game that I have experienced and its fairly clear that adapting that style of play to an MMO would be disastrously bad.
Edit: I take that back. Planescape: Torment was also a lot of fun. It played so fast and loose with the rules as to be a bit silly at times. It still managed to tell a compelling story though.
Yeah, Planescape Torment used the same system as the Baldur's Gate (1&2) and Icewind Dale games. And those games beat Fallout and Deus Ex every day in my book. Not to mention that Deus Ex is a FPS with a few RPG elements and Fallout didn't adapt any existing P&P RPG rule set.
Or...it could be that they are a different race entirely, and they have more efficient muscles...or any other number of possible make believe reasons, since hey, they're elves.
Can't be too different from humans though, because they can make little half-elves. :-P
Legolas walking across the snow is laughing at your physics :)
At least he was only human sized...
Besides that's how tall Tolkien said elves were supposed to be. If you are going to make short elves they need to be like the Keebler and shoe-making elves.
Tolkien said elves were as tall as humans. That's all I'm asking for.
Also, the physical stats of your girlfriend don't sound healthy. Even professional female marathon runners have a BMI of about 18.
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I'm initially resistant to the idea of the MMO not using the PF rules... much like I was not initially happy with the changes to character mechanics from Oblivion to Skyrim. Now that I've been playing Skyrim for way more hours than I care to admit it's dissolved into the background. So, while my preference would be that the ruleset is well represented in the MMO (some things must change... NWN was close to 3.0 rules, but some things are still different for very good reason), I suspect that as long as the world is compelling and the game is fun the rules shouldn't matter that much (I mean *which* rules are used shouldn't matter... they have to be sensible and consistent no matter what rules are used in the background).
The Temple of Elemental Evil is the only reasonably satisfactory implementation of D&D mechanics into a computer game that I have experienced and its fairly clear that adapting that style of play to an MMO would be disastrously bad.
Firstly Temple of Evil seems to be very far from a D&D PnP experience. It doesn't even have multiplayer which must be an important factor if you want to make D&D into a computer game.
Also I don't know why you are racking single player game after single player game saying that was good and that was good...like it mattered.
I know most play WoW and SWToR cause of the SP experience and don't give a s!%! about other players other than an occasional "i'm better than you cause I'm higher level"...but I think its pathetic what MMO's have become...
hmarcbower, yes I think you got it right. Just also remember that the aim is not to use the rules EXACTLY but at least TRY to...(get as far as possible that is...)
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I agree with both of you.
I think the motto should be "as close as possible" to PF, within the frame of a real-time MMO.
...And make the elves human-sized...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Firstly Temple of Evil seems to be very far from a D&D PnP experience. It doesn't even have multiplayer which must be an important factor if you want to make D&D into a computer game.
Have you played the game?
Also I don't know why you are racking single player game after single player game saying that was good and that was good...like it mattered.
Like you pushing for NWN? That was a single player game, first and foremost, that happened to have a multiplayer feature.
I know most play WoW and SWToR cause of the SP experience and don't give a s&~% about other players other than an occasional "i'm better than you cause I'm higher level"...but I think its pathetic what MMO's have become...
This sounds like it came from someone who's never actually played WoW or SWTOR, but likes to parrot the negative stuff they hear about it to sound learned on the subject.
.............The Temple of Elemental Evil.........
Have you played the game?
No...but I know its single player which is what I said.
This sounds like it came from someone who's never actually played WoW or SWTOR,
I have to shamefully admit to wasting about 3-4 days of my life on each of them...
...at least it wasn't 3-4 years like most :-o
DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to bash WoW or the players there of. If you like WoW...thats great for you. Many do.... For me it just isn't my game...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, just as good as not playing, then.
Not to belittle your experience, but hard to take the sweeping statements about WoW or WoW clones when the source only has a few day's playtime...
I'm not defending WoW either. I have 3 level 85s, I have played it for a while. There are definately things I do not like about it, but it is fun. It's the community that ruins it, in my opinion.
If SOE didn't treat it's subscribers and an inconvenience, I'd still be playing EQII. If WaR didn't cram PvP down your throat after level 40, I'd still be playing that. If AoC was fun...
I am currently playing SWTOR. I play my main is on a PVE server, and have joined friends on a RP PVP server. It's much to early to tell, but I think SWTOR will do ok.
Most of these games use the user interface stuff I believe you do not like, with the hot keys and cool downs. It's for ease of play, to grab as many gamers as they can. All MMOs I have played use this system, starting as early as EQ in the late 90's. It has become the industry standard. It is recognizable and provides a level of comfort to MMO players, and it's easy to pick up for new players, which are two of the main things you need to grow a new game and keep subscribers.
This should not be discarded for no good reason!
NWN uses the exact same type of hotbar for actions as well. It also uses the "right click on target to get list of actions" thing that EVE uses.
I think I know what you mean but you can't say NWN uses the EXACT same type of hotbar.
About the right klick...yeah that is kind of similar to EVE and probably one of few similarities as EVE is not an RPG.
You know...even windows standard behaviour is that you get properties when you right klick something....so kind of makes sense....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I know what you mean but you can't say NWN uses the EXACT same type of hotbar.
Well, it basically does the same thing, and also for the same reasona, namely "for ease of play, to grab as many gamers as they can".
And what you badly need to realize is that this is a good thing, not something to complain about. There's no sense in making gameplay needlessly complicated just because "we cannot risk all those gamers actually wanting to play our game".
NWN uses the exact same type of hotbar for actions as well. It also uses the "right click on target to get list of actions" thing that EVE uses.I think I know what you mean but you can't say NWN uses the EXACT same type of hotbar.
About the right klick...yeah that is kind of similar to EVE and probably one of few similarities as EVE is not an RPG.
You know...even windows standard behaviour is that you get properties when you right klick something....so kind of makes sense....
Eve's controls are needlessly complicated and hard to use in an efficient manner for new players. Submenus are hidden and you need to know where to look. Options are non-obvious. It has a control scheme that promotes a system mastery. It turns many players off from the game (I know at least 3).
Hotkeys on the other hand are much easier to use and are very common in genre, with at least 15 years of use. They take little time to get system mastery in and are more easily customizable. WoW has streamlined their design very well. In addition, they have people that expand on the system with custom add-ons. The add-ons create some of the best UIs possible. There is no reason to not model yourself after the best.
Also, you calling EVE not an RPG makes me think you don't know what the title means.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Pathfinder rule set is, hands down, the best P&P RPG rule set out there.
That's your opinion. A lot of people do not agree.
Systems that I actually prefer:
Adventure Game Engine
Basic RolePlaying
Classic World of Darkness
Dungeons & Dragons (0E, 1E, BECMI/RC, or 2E) and various retro-clones
GUMSHOE
Savage Worlds
Tri-Stat
Warhammer 40K
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Goblin Squad Member
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FAQs aren't law. And certainly aren't something that you can use in a courtroom. What you can use is the license, and it is unclear on the matter.
And again, marking out OGC in a computer game would be *horribly* messy. Especially in a MMO, where most of the data is server-side. How do you designate that as open content?
Remember, like I wrote earlier, a lawsuit can kill you before even you will have a chance to present your case. Even doubly so with a MMO, because a temporary injunction that says "stop running your game until the court rules on the matter" is a death sentence.
Although I appreciate your ardor to not have the MMO use the Pathfinder rules,
1. You most certainly could use the clarifications that Wizards publishes on their own site about what the OGL means in court. About 1/100 of what's brought up in a civil trial is black-letter law.
The big problem is that WotC controls what that FAQ says. That FAQ is one phone call away from saying "Computer games cannot use OGC".
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Goblin Squad Member
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For instance, I have never played in the Golarion setting and knew nothing about it until this MMO was announced.
I find it rather hard to believe that you have been playing with the Pathfinder rules for 2-3 years, and have remained completely ignorant of the fact that the Pathfinder campaign setting exists.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For instance, I have never played in the Golarion setting and knew nothing about it until this MMO was announced.I find it rather hard to believe that you have been playing with the Pathfinder rules for 2-3 years, and have remained completely ignorant of the fact that the Pathfinder campaign setting exists.
Sure, I knew the campaign stuff existed, but that was the extend of my knowledge of it. We (my gaming group) had an ongoing campaign in a world our DM has been developing for several decades. We liked the rules so we adopted them. There was no reason to look at the campaign stuff (and definitely no reason to care about the fact that the campaign came first).
For instance, I have never played in the Golarion setting and knew nothing about it until this MMO was announced.I find it rather hard to believe that you have been playing with the Pathfinder rules for 2-3 years, and have remained completely ignorant of the fact that the Pathfinder campaign setting exists.
I find their statement rather plausible and yours difficult to believe, conversely; I parsed the claim as being ignorant of the Golarion setting itself, not of its existence.
I have been playing a homebrew campaign using the Pathfinder system for as long as it has been officially branded, and knew precious little about Golarion save through incidental exposure through other soucebooks gifted over time - I have the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Game Master's Guide, both Ultimate Combat and Magic, and all 3 Bestiaries. I recently acquired the Books of the Damned trilogy, a few of the Races of Golarion books, and Faiths of Corruption, along with Inner Sea Magic on a lark.
It is both feasible and easily conceivable that someone could love the rules for Pathfinder without giving a tuppence about the Golarian setting...which isn't to bag on it, but it's not everyone's bag, no different than Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Krynn/Dragonlance, or what have you.
To put it another way that would be akin to saying that someone who played AD&D 2nd Edition could not have possibly never played in a Mystara Campaign, because the material existed for it.
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As long as the setting 'rules' are right (which includes things like race heights and weights, bonuses roughly in the areas they're supposed to get bonuses in etc), there are recognisable DnD tropes (elves, dwarves, barbaians, wizards, equipment, carrying capacity, reasonably realistic physics except where magic is involved, deities and their followers etc), and as long as the Lore and setting are correct (e.g. in the recent thread about naming of the scum and villany base someone points out a few errors in the lore - that sort of stuff needs tightening up), then I do not care a fig for whether or not it uses the d20 3.75 ruleset.
What makes DnD fun is the people you play it with, roleplay quality, setting, and a ruleset that is consistent - those are the reasons why Pathfinder itself is so good. If the MMORPG can manage that, all will be well. People you play with and roleplay quality is in the control of the players. Setting is already established and well documented (although I really do need more info on the Mordant Spire if anyone background-team related is reading this...). Ruleset is the only variable left out of that trio, and the specific ruleset doesn't actually matter - the rules system in an MMO should be invisible to the players, so they can get on with playing.
I'm far, far more interested in what features will support roleplaying - this is something DDO completely ignored and in my view is it's main failing. WoW provides many, many features to support it and the game is much richer as a result.
TL; DR - don't care about the ruleset. Make it smooth and playable, make sure the roleplaying audience is a primary concern, and CHECK. YOUR. LORE. The rest will tend to itself.
Chief Technical Officer
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The term "Pathfinder" was already used by Paizo even before them creating their own system.Yep, that's technically true. The perfect counter to my reasoning, technically.
Still, *most* fans of the game came after. *Most* fans can look forward to many years of entering 'How much damage does a halberd do in Pathfinder' into Google and getting the wrong answer. Or looking for a game of Pathfinder online to level up their PFS character and only finding dozens of links to some MMORPG, instead of the online forums they needed. Such confusion is inevitable whenever two different sets of mechanics are tied to the same title.
But they *don't* have the same title. I'd hope that they will eventually figure out that they should specify "Pathfinder Online" or "Pathfinder RPG" in their search terms. We do not (and will not) refer to either one as *just* Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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how is EVE not RPG? granted, not everyone in EVE roleplays. but EVE definitely offers roles to be played. setting supports it. rules support it....
About the right klick...yeah that is kind of similar to EVE and probably one of few similarities as EVE is not an RPG.
...
The thing I loved about EVE is that everything you do can be considered "in character". I mean, your a guy in space in the future. Are you going to tell me that lolcats and fart jokes will go away in the future? When you are camping a gate and chatting with your wingmates, every thing you say is still perfectly in character. ;)