Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I certainly hope that PFO is nothing like Eve. Perhaps a game about futuristic corporations can afford to be thus dominated by blocs of players, but a game about heroism needs to be about the struggle and potential victory of the individual. If PFO is merely about fantasy and not about heroism, who would care but the powergamers?
Strip away all other labels and you're left with the one defining label of a good adventure, be it fantasy, science fiction or pulp: heroism. With it, you have a story. Without it, you have a mere game. Settlers of Catan on a larger scale.
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I certainly hope that PFO is nothing like Eve.
A rather empty hope, considering what the devs have confirmed about their plans for the game. It's not going to be "fantasy EVE" per se, but "nothing like Eve" will certainly NOT be the case.
I'm not criticizing your desire, just telling you what's being planned.
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I certainly hope that PFO is nothing like Eve. Perhaps a game about futuristic corporations can afford to be thus dominated by blocs of players, but a game about heroism needs to be about the struggle and potential victory of the individual. If PFO is merely about fantasy and not about heroism, who would care but the powergamers?
Strip away all other labels and you're left with the one defining label of a good adventure, be it fantasy, science fiction or pulp: heroism. With it, you have a story. Without it, you have a mere game. Settlers of Catan on a larger scale.
I'm hoping the game isn't about heroism. Rather, that heroism is simply one possible path in the game. But then, this is the difference between a themepark game and a sandbox game. In the former, you get a story; in the latter, you get a game (as you said) but you get to craft your own story with that game.
I'm reminded of playing Clue with my family. On the surface, it's just a game. You can play it as a board game. But with my family, we turned it into a story - you didn't just develop a theory and ask for evidence, you narrated a story, as the character you played, as to what happened to Mr. Body. (And only Mr. Green and Miss Scarlet have American accents, by the way. Everyone else is British. And Scarlet's a Southern Belle.)
Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly hope that PFO is nothing like Eve. Perhaps a game about futuristic corporations can afford to be thus dominated by blocs of players, but a game about heroism needs to be about the struggle and potential victory of the individual. If PFO is merely about fantasy and not about heroism, who would care but the powergamers?
Strip away all other labels and you're left with the one defining label of a good adventure, be it fantasy, science fiction or pulp: heroism. With it, you have a story. Without it, you have a mere game. Settlers of Catan on a larger scale.
I think it is important not to mistake "hero" with "good". There have been many heroes through history, few of them good. It all depends upon the side writing history. Was Christopher Columbus a hero? I was taught so in school, but then I later learned about the 50% of native americans (in the local area) who died immediately after due to the diseases he brought. Cortez on the other hand is seen a hero to some because he brought Christianity to so many "heathens" but others don't see him as a hero because of the way he did it...and because his real interest was gold. But, he did send a lot of gold home, which probably made him a hero there.
A concern I see which trying to make every individual a hero is that this is a sandbox, so players will drive much of the content and we (players) will not have access to the phasing and such commonly used to separate those who have passed heroic missions and those who have not. This might sound like a downer to someone who wants to be a traditional hero, but I actually look at it as better, just more complex. Anyone can be a hero by going and furthering the cause of whatever cause or group they want to associate with in game. Some will see you as a hero, others perhaps not...but the group you are fighting for will. Therefore, those who want to be heroes can, and those who want to support heroes can do that as well.
An evil assassin can even become a hero by killing an evil tyrant...even if they did it to sow chaos or just simply money.
An evil assassin can even become a hero by killing an...
Or a thief can become a hero by stealin' from the magistrate an' makin' a mistake...
Jayne! The man they call Ja-
Uh, sorry. Never mind.
BTW, KitNyx, your latest thread doesn't work. Deities and passive missions takes me back to the forum itself.
Goblinworks Founder
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I'm hoping the game isn't about heroism. Rather, that heroism is simply one possible path in the game. But then, this is the difference between a themepark game and a sandbox game. In the former, you get a story; in the latter, you get a game (as you said) but you get to craft your own story with that game.
This is one of the problems that I have with the current MMO's and even some upcoming ones that I have had the opportunity to test. There are too many games that feature you as the "Chosen one" in your own special snowflake story. There are virtually no MMO's out there that allow the player to imagine their own story, allowing the player to fill in the blanks with their own imagination is how good games remain nostalgic. Give players the tools to live in a persistent world however they choose and you cater to more than just the wannabe heroes, you cater to the empire builders, the roleplayers, the explorers, the merchants, the actors, the musicians, the thieves, entrepreneurs and so on....
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An evil assassin can even become a hero by killing an...Or a thief can become a hero by stealin' from the magistrate an' makin' a mistake...
Jayne! The man they call Ja-
Uh, sorry. Never mind.
If we gain the ability to found our own towns, I'm so naming mine Canton.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of the problems that I have with the current MMO's and even some upcoming ones that I have had the opportunity to test. There are too many games that feature you as the "Chosen one" in your own special snowflake story. There are virtually no MMO's out there that allow the player to imagine their own story, allowing the player to fill in the blanks with their own imagination is how good games remain nostalgic. Give players the tools to live in a persistent world however they choose and you cater to more than just the wannabe heroes, you cater to the empire builders, the roleplayers, the explorers, the merchants, the actors, the musicians, the thieves, entrepreneurs and so on...
+1...because this actually includes the hero or "Chosen One" type being argued for too...it is just not handed to you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of the problems that I have with the current MMO's and even some upcoming ones that I have had the opportunity to test. There are too many games that feature you as the "Chosen one" in your own special snowflake story. There are virtually no MMO's out there that allow the player to imagine their own story, allowing the player to fill in the blanks with their own imagination is how good games remain nostalgic. Give players the tools to live in a persistent world however they choose and you cater to more than just the wannabe heroes, you cater to the empire builders, the roleplayers, the explorers, the merchants, the actors, the musicians, the thieves, entrepreneurs and so on...+1...because this actually includes the hero or "Chosen One" type being argued for too...it is just not handed to you.
Who'd of thought you wouldd have to earn that title?
I'm happy being just a crafter. A civilian, peaceful, crafter.
"Your pretending to be a blacksmith? You do know we're all superheroes right?"
Will a MMORPG in the 21st Century let me please do this without people raising an eyebrow at me? I feel like Chuck Norris hiding in a McDonalds restaurant trying to flip burgers.
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Goblinworks Founder
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This is one of the problems that I have with the current MMO's and even some upcoming ones that I have had the opportunity to test. There are too many games that feature you as the "Chosen one" in your own special snowflake story. There are virtually no MMO's out there that allow the player to imagine their own story, allowing the player to fill in the blanks with their own imagination is how good games remain nostalgic. Give players the tools to live in a persistent world however they choose and you cater to more than just the wannabe heroes, you cater to the empire builders, the roleplayers, the explorers, the merchants, the actors, the musicians, the thieves, entrepreneurs and so on...+1...because this actually includes the hero or "Chosen One" type being argued for too...it is just not handed to you.Who'd of thought you wouldd have to earn that title?
I'm happy being just a crafter. A civilian, peaceful, crafter.
"Your pretending to be a blacksmith? You do know we're all superheroes right?"
Will a MMORPG in the 21st Century let me please do this without people raising an eyebrow at me? I feel like Chuck Norris hiding in a McDonalds restaurant trying to flip burgers.
You're not alone.
If someone wanted to be a peaceful blacksmith, they should be able to do just that. They shouldn't have to be secret ninja, mighty crusader or powerful wizard that moonlights as a blacksmith between slaying dragons and demons. They should also be far better at smithing compared to a hero that only does it as a hobby.
It would also be cool if you could establish a prospecting site and hire NPC's to help mine it. Hire guards to help protect the claim and hire teamsters to cart the goods back to town.
If someone wanted to be a peaceful blacksmith, they should be able to do just that.Sure, I guess. Even theme park games often let you do this to some degree.
They should also be far better at smithing compared to a hero that only does it as a hobby.Why is this a good thing? People actually want to be able to both crush and bake bread. I can understand if you want it to require some sort of either/or decision of resources while building skills to either crush or bake bread, but I don't see any reason you can't aspire to mastering both crushing and baking bread.
Plus, locking people like this makes them feel trapped, and makes them less inclined to explore new parts of the game. Maybe someone who plays a hero wants to try out baking bread. Telling him he'll never be as good as someone who specializes in baking bread (or that he'll have to sacrifice heroing forever to do it) will discourage him from trying.
EDIT: Redacted, I was being a smartass and I apologize.
However, I will still say, there is a reason people specialize. I wouldn't expect an adventurer who decides to try baking to bake as well as a person dedicated to it, no more than I'd expect a baker who gets an itch for adventure to swing a sword as well as a 20th level fighter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone wanted to be a peaceful blacksmith, they should be able to do just that.Sure, I guess. Even theme park games often let you do this to some degree.
They should also be far better at smithing compared to a hero that only does it as a hobby.Why is this a good thing? People actually want to be able to both crush and bake bread. I can understand if you want it to require some sort of either/or decision of resources while building skills to either crush or bake bread, but I don't see any reason you can't aspire to mastering both crushing and baking bread.
Plus, locking people like this makes them feel trapped, and makes them less inclined to explore new parts of the game. Maybe someone who plays a hero wants to try out baking bread. Telling him he'll never be as good as someone who specializes in baking bread (or that he'll have to sacrifice heroing forever to do it) will discourage him from trying.
A skill system would allow for a player to crush skulls and bake bread. It should just not allow you to crush skulls, bake bread, make swords, helmets and houses. This is what we have crafting and economies for; for others to provide for you.
Our point was that the game should allow for a character to maximize his skill allocation in strictly craft or trade orientated skills, and not feel less viable or important than the guy who made a character specific to crushing skulls. This follows the assumption that you may specialise in a range of specific skills, or a jack of all trades (master of none).
A crafter, in our little scenario, would be better than the hero hobbyist because he has directed his character at using a range of craft skills. Your hero could bake bread as well as the crafter.
Your skull crusher will have a predominantly combatant skill set for him to optimize his destructive capabilities, yet there should be room to diversity. Remember you pick the skills.
I'd also add that I might well expect someone (esp. a follower of Irori for example) to become a master at everything... but it would be a lifetime goal and the perfection itself would be what they are aspiring to. It should take years, real time, to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also add that I might well expect someone (esp. a follower of Irori for example) to become a master at everything... but it would be a lifetime goal and the perfection itself would be what they are aspiring to. It should take years, real time, to do.
For me, this would be a little too much for an MMORPG. Eventually people will reach these heights. Your free to suggest it and I'd definitely agree that they would perhaps receive a bonus of a increased skill cap or capacity for skill points, but no further.
It would be more balanced if this increased capacity was put into non-aggressive skills such as those of crafting, trade, social skills etc, but then again would every non combatant character not become a follower of Irori?
Allowing someone to master a great deal of combat orientated skills would be problematic under the assumption that other combatants could only learn so much, to which a seriously unfair advantage may exist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the point Elth was making was that Heroics demand a fairly diverse skillset, and a dedicated Hero shouldn't have room enough in his build to be a master baker. He could bake as a side job between heroic adventures or whatnot, and he could probably become a pretty good baker, but he could never be a master baker and full scale hero.
Exactly, it should take comparable amounts of time and effort on the characters part to become an expert adventurer as it should to become an expert baker. There should also be as much overlap as you wish. Given long enough you could do become a expert at both...but this should be a lot of character effort and time.
The benefit of this system is is leaves niches for people to fill. There will be many Adventurers who aspire to be the best adventurers...as such, if I jump into the game 2 years after release I will never be able to compete. But, can become master of the noncompetitive field of cookie making. We all know how much heroes will pay for their +10 Constitution Cookies with +5 Orc Smashing candies in it...so by making these, I get vaulted into the field of elite players, desired by every faction and clan. The uber adventurers will even share their l00tz with me in exchange for my cookies.
Okay, so maybe a bit of hyperbole, but the theory is what is behind my argument.
I play a game called Saga of Ryzom which is skill based too, and it takes months of work to master a single skill. And that is actual effort and time spent working it, not just EVE style select and auto learn. It is good, but there are the players like me who have been in game for 5-6 years and newcomers will never be able to match us in diversity. But, there are so many skills, that a new player could decide to master a craft I in 5-6 years have not even had a chance to touch yet. So, the broader the range of skills to master, the more opportunities there will be for everyone to be desired for mastering something. (Cool thing about SoR though is that even players half max can contribute in combat, PvP and PvE....this is like a level 40 player being able to contribute in a level 80 instance in WoW...so everyone can feel useful).
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Goblinworks Founder
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If someone wanted to be a peaceful blacksmith, they should be able to do just that.Sure, I guess. Even theme park games often let you do this to some degree.
They should also be far better at smithing compared to a hero that only does it as a hobby.Why is this a good thing? People actually want to be able to both crush and bake bread. I can understand if you want it to require some sort of either/or decision of resources while building skills to either crush or bake bread, but I don't see any reason you can't aspire to mastering both crushing and baking bread.
Plus, locking people like this makes them feel trapped, and makes them less inclined to explore new parts of the game. Maybe someone who plays a hero wants to try out baking bread. Telling him he'll never be as good as someone who specializes in baking bread (or that he'll have to sacrifice heroing forever to do it) will discourage him from trying.
Here we go again.
Not once did I mention a hero not being able to try their hand at a craft.
Not once did I mention that a player be "Locked" into a profession.
I will not even bother explaining any further. The other people in this thread have already done so.
For once It would be nice for me to contribute something to a conversation with like-minded people without you twisting my words in order to create an arguement.
I am still yet to see you have one constructive suggestion in this Pathfinder Online forum.
I'd also add that I might well expect someone (esp. a follower of Irori for example) to become a master at everything... but it would be a lifetime goal and the perfection itself would be what they are aspiring to. It should take years, real time, to do.For me, this would be a little too much for an MMORPG. Eventually people will reach these heights. Your free to suggest it and I'd definitely agree that they would perhaps receive a bonus of a increased skill cap or capacity for skill points, but no further.
It would be more balanced if this increased capacity was put into non-aggressive skills such as those of crafting, trade, social skills etc, but then again would every non combatant character not become a follower of Irori?
Allowing someone to master a great deal of combat orientated skills would be problematic under the assumption that other combatants could only learn so much, to which a seriously unfair advantage may exist.
I think you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that followers of Irori should have some kind of higher (or lack of) skill cap, but rather that it would be more likely for a follower of Irori, as a matter of RP, to "perfect" themselves by achieving mastery in everything.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I think you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that followers of Irori should have some kind of higher (or lack of) skill cap, but rather that it would be more likely for a follower of Irori, as a matter of RP, to "perfect" themselves by achieving mastery in everything.
I think that this should be possible. But the time it takes to perfect every skill should something measured in years even by hardcore standards.
lets see how long it takes for someone to shoot me down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that followers of Irori should have some kind of higher (or lack of) skill cap, but rather that it would be more likely for a follower of Irori, as a matter of RP, to "perfect" themselves by achieving mastery in everything.
I stand corrected :)
lets see how long it takes for someone to shoot me down.
Coldman takes aim...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that followers of Irori should have some kind of higher (or lack of) skill cap, but rather that it would be more likely for a follower of Irori, as a matter of RP, to "perfect" themselves by achieving mastery in everything.I think that this should be possible. But the time it takes to perfect every skill should something measured in years even by hardcore standards.
lets see how long it takes for someone to shoot me down.
I favorited you =). I would hope mastering everything takes closer to many years...but I would be happy with years.
But, as I mentioned in my previous post...I hope adding skill only makes you more interesting and more proficient, not necessarily more powerful. A STR 16 punch is a STR 16 punch, no matter how much skill you have that allows you to land it. Of course, the additional skill would educate you on where to place that punch for additional effects, hence more interesting. This would allow even new players to be useful in groups even with old players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But even if you have all of the skills, you have limited time. Going back to EVE, the Mittani has (access to) characters with capped skills in everything he'd want, but he's certainly not mining his own Veldspar, or even his own Technitium. You're going to do whatever it is you enjoy, and that will define your character. Setting up roadblocks that make people less eager to find new things to try when they get bored with their old skill just makes them more likely to burn out on the game entirely.
And you are free to do what it is you enjoy. In a perfect world, even when at your maximum capacity for skill points, you would naturally decrease your least favoured skill in favour of your newly desired skills. There are no roadblocks or barriers.
The fundamental difference here is that in a game in a fantasy setting such at Pathfinder, you would assume that a player would create new PCs to experience all aspects of the game. One would naturally want to play a fighter to the full extent possible, then perhaps a trader or a craftsmen. This has generally been the methodology behind experiencing varying game mechanics in the MMORPGs I have played, but I can appreciate that things are not the same across the board. Skill based games for fantasy settings would generally follow this principle.
My point is that by limiting someone's capacity for known skills, they will feel locked into what they have when they fill that capacity, not wanting to give up the known quantity of what they have for the unknown quantity of a new skill, even if they have grown bored with what they have. They could drop what they have in their hand to pick up something new, but often as not, they won't.
Make another character. Eve is a unique game in the sense that developing a single character is a lifetime achievement. In every other MMORPG to date people use multiple characters for multiple roles. I understand your approach, as in Eve character development never stops. In almost every other sandbox MMO, it does. Atleast in terms of skill points. Given that Eve is a sci-fi MMORPG and PFO a fantasy one, I would assume PFO to follow a more traditional method of not allowing a single PC to know everything.
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Goblinworks Founder
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My point is that by limiting someone's capacity for known skills, they will feel locked into what they have when they fill that capacity, not wanting to give up the known quantity of what they have for the unknown quantity of a new skill, even if they have grown bored with what they have. They could drop what they have in their hand to pick up something new, but often as not, they won't.
The misunderstanding is mainly due to a lack of information, which is why I tend to be vague on my own posts.
Assuming the skill system is similar to EvE Online. Even though the option to master every skill is there, it would take a lifetime to achieve due to the sheer number of skills available.
I don't think PFO will be as extreme as EVE because technology is on a completely different level of complexity. The question is how can they ensure the longevity of a sandbox with such limited scope of skills, without allowing a player to be the master of every skill in the game within 12months?
This maybe where the Archtypes come into the game, maybe not.
I would like to see players have the freedom to play how they want without being locked to specific professions.
Going back to the hero crafting scenario, the hero should still be able to bake just as well as the next baker should he invest the time, but would he have the skills required to successfully run a bakery, smith his own weapons, memorize his spells AND maintain his skills with a sword? Possibly, but if he had such a diversely ridiculous skill set he would probably be lacking in something important.
I guess what I am trying to get across is that I don't want a mechanic to lock players into their skill choices, I want the skills to be challenging enough that a player might want to choose carefully how he invests his time. A hero focusing much of his time with spelunking abilities and maintaining his combat expertise he/she might not have time to be the best baker in the world. Whereas someone that focuses solely on their craft, they would be good at what they do, not just because their craft is at maximum skill, but because they spend a lot of their time sourcing the best ingredients and the best prices and generally focus on their craft and how to sell their services as best they can.
Yes this can be done to an extent in many themepark MMO's but crafting in most themepark MMO's is easy enough to max out in a weekend, can be maintained easily as a hobby and still be the best on the server.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess what I am trying to get across is that I don't want a mechanic to lock players into their skill choices, I want the skills to be challenging enough that a player might want to choose carefully how he invests his time.
Cheers, very well said. I would only add that IF you were to decide to change your path, you could make a new character, but you could also just shift directions with your current character because of the lack of limits. Then, you would be able to utilize the work you have done so far are a foundation as you move in your new direction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly hope that PFO is nothing like Eve. Perhaps a game about futuristic corporations can afford to be thus dominated by blocs of players, but a game about heroism needs to be about the struggle and potential victory of the individual. If PFO is merely about fantasy and not about heroism, who would care but the powergamers?
Strip away all other labels and you're left with the one defining label of a good adventure, be it fantasy, science fiction or pulp: heroism. With it, you have a story. Without it, you have a mere game. Settlers of Catan on a larger scale.
I think it is important not to mistake "hero" with "good". There have been many heroes through history, few of them good. It all depends upon the side writing history. Was Christopher Columbus a hero? I was taught so in school, but then I later learned about the 50% of native americans (in the local area) who died immediately after due to the diseases he brought. Cortez on the other hand is seen a hero to some because he brought Christianity to so many "heathens" but others don't see him as a hero because of the way he did it...and because his real interest was gold. But, he did send a lot of gold home, which probably made him a hero there.
A concern I see which trying to make every individual a hero is that this is a sandbox, so players will drive much of the content and we (players) will not have access to the phasing and such commonly used to separate those who have passed heroic missions and those who have not. This might sound like a downer to someone who wants to be a traditional hero, but I actually look at it as better, just more complex. Anyone can be a hero by going and furthering the cause of whatever cause or group they want to associate with in game. Some will see you as a hero, others perhaps not...but the group you are fighting for will. Therefore, those who want to be heroes can, and those who want to support heroes can do that as well.
An evil assassin can even become a hero by killing an...
Part of the problem is that in a EVE-like game universe you aren't a hero by any of those definition, you mostly are a number.
Most of the time you are one of a countless number of individuals actions have a very small influence on the world. At the same time the group action influence the world.It work well in a world of faceless corporations in a dark and gritty universe.
Not so well in a fantasy world where the individual hero (or anti-hero) should matter.
Being one of the cogs in the world mechanism is something more related to the real world than a hero game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're wanting to guide people towards alts, so be it, but this will necessarily create the same effect it does in other games that encourage alts: people do not identify as their characters, but identify as the owner of many characters. Bohb, BohbBSalt, BohbBakingalt, etc.
Is this an acceptable consequence?
Pardon?
I'll bite. I don't quite know why you think they will do this other than simply creating new identities. Training characters is difficult and time consuming, players generally give characters unique names; if they don't then they've no doubt given their main character a stupid name in the first place.
Personally I'd run the risk of this happening (sigh) than having all purpose characters in a roleplaying game.
they could master both baking bread and crushing, if they were so inclined, yes?
I said that a person could master both. My point was that a certain group of skills would be required for a warrior to be a good warrior. Parrying, Tactics, Weapon skills, Armour proficiency skills? The more a warrior takes of these, the more specialized warrior he would become. He can by all accounts, cook until he is equal to the best chefs in the world...why the hell not. But a warrior who spends time cooking and not fighting, is going to be less of a warrior and more of a cook to some small degree.
Why does it make you less of a warrior and more of a cook? Because the game should have a skill cap. Why? Because it's logical. Why do we need some small enforcement of this logic, that you should trade off your expertise when generalising in skills? so that you do not invalidate other peoples PCs. If you can bake for yourself, arm yourself and heal yourself at no expense to your crushing abilities, you invalidate the validity of other peoples playstyles: the healer, the hunter, the smith.
Yes you should have room within the skillcap for secondary skills as well as what you need to crush. But not enough to offer you a strong handle on a trade skills such as blacksmithing, tailoring, leatherworking etc.
Why play an MMORPG if not to interact and rely on others. Its the point of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My point is that by limiting someone's capacity for known skills, they will feel locked into what they have when they fill that capacity, not wanting to give up the known quantity of what they have for the unknown quantity of a new skill, even if they have grown bored with what they have. They could drop what they have in their hand to pick up something new, but often as not, they won't.The misunderstanding is mainly due to a lack of information, which is why I tend to be vague on my own posts.
Assuming the skill system is similar to EvE Online. Even though the option to master every skill is there, it would take a lifetime to achieve due to the sheer number of skills available.
I don't think PFO will be as extreme as EVE because technology is on a completely different level of complexity. The question is how can they ensure the longevity of a sandbox with such limited scope of skills, without allowing a player to be the master of every skill in the game within 12months?
I don't see why it shouldn't have as many skills as EVE or more.
They will be different skills, but becoming a good "mounted warrior" could take months and mastering all the skills a lifetime (You have learned to ride and fight on a horse or a rhino, now you can learn the skills to do that from the back of a hippogrif or a dragon). Same thing f or becoming a "grandmaster baker" of a "legendary smith".
Sure, combat skills seem to be more amendable to more granularity, so more skills, but we can have a almost infinite number of "civilian" skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see what you think you are saying:
The best solution is to not. Games like Ryzom aren't making people do work; they're making them do tedious, unnecessary tasks. Why?
But actually you are say you would not enjoy Ryzom. Fine. There is a decent sized fan-base in Ryzom and many have been in Ryzom for 4-5 years because they they enjoy the feeling of accomplishment they get when they get rewarded for actually doing something. But Ryzom has a complex crafting system in which you can build your own recipes and optimizing a good recipe can in itself make a long time of trial and error, so you pursue the goal of optimizing a recipe and leveling is just a side benefit. That is the point, leave each aspect of the game for those who actually enjoy it. For those who enjoy crafting, crafting is obviously not tedious and unnecessary.
It helps in Ryzom that all gear in the game is player made, some players end up having to craft a lot to gear themselves and their friends.
EDIT: This is the point, just play the game the way you enjoy it...let leveling come as a side effect of that. In fact...I would like to see this game a skill based system in which you cannot view your skill levels. Just play the game.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Okay, so you're not arguing for overall skill caps like Coldman, just that you have X resources and you can spend them on baking bread or crushing, depending on whatever you prefer. You're fine with the idea that if someone plays long enough, they could master both baking bread and crushing, if they were so inclined, yes?
Exactly.
I am hoping that there is enough skills for combat, adventuring and crafting that the only limitation is whether the player has the time to master six different weapons, acrobatics, conjuring illusions, make a gourmet dish, bake a cake and skin a deer. The only limitation is time management here. The player might want to do all those things, but they would have to sacrifice the advancement of one area in order to progress in another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Other games solve this problem through forbidding PvP at all except in tightly controlled situations (aka Battlegrounds).
Soundbox games have it harder because they usually loathe to introduce fixed factions as this is a themepark thing.
However there could be several (at least three) GM controlled factions that you have to join in order to do PvP and you can only do PvP against members of the other factions (and not against members of your own faction or against factionless people) and maybe even only in certain contested areas.
This would even open the opportunity to balance the factions and for one faction to actually win and get some lasting reward - which would mean all factions are disbanded and after a few days of calm contemplation some new Warlords rear their head to fight another fight for another territory and people can join again if they want.
Would be a sandboxy approach while not entering the snakepit of free PvP with some measly repercussions that are easily circumvented.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only limitation is time management here. The player might want to do all those things
This is one of these "wouldn't it be nice things" that end less fun than originally anticipated.
First, a game can never be perfectly balanced, some choices are always superior from a game mechanics pov. While not all people may care for that, most certainly do.
If you allow a Fighter-Wizard-Rogue-Priest then, maybe later than sooner, you will have it. If this happens to be the most profitable combination, sooner or later almost everyone will be a Fighter-Wizard-Rogue-Priest.
Happened in Ultima, will happen in PFO.
So you need limitations, a player must choose wether she wants fightery skills or magey skills and if she can mix those two she must be weaker in each (edited: thx kyrt) than a full version of either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you need limitations, a player must choose wether she wants fightery skills or magey skills and if she can mix those two she must be weaker in each (edited: thx kyrt) than a full version of either.
I don't see why it should be a "either" proposition for the skill sets.
If you are operating as a fighter you will (almost certainly) worn a heavy armour, use weapons and shields, move in the tick of the melee.
if you are operating as a wizard you will wear no armor and stay as far as possible for the melee.
What is important is that you will not be capable to function as a wizard and a fighter at the same time (unless you are something like a eldritch knight).
It should be possible to go home and dress your wizardry robes or your armor and operate as a wizard or a fighter without limitation.
Sure, it man that to get to the same point of a character focusing on only one profession you will spend way more time, but it mean a lot for the longevity of the game and the level of attachment between teh player and the character.
Done this way after you have reached the peak in one profession you can learn another and keep playing with the same character.
Done your way you will have to create a new character from scratch, while your old character become only a memory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you need limitations, a player must choose wether she wants fightery skills or magey skills and if she can mix those two she must be weaker in each (edited: thx kyrt) than a full version of either.I don't see why it should be a "either" proposition for the skill sets.
If you are operating as a fighter you will (almost certainly) worn a heavy armour, use weapons and shields, move in the tick of the melee.
if you are operating as a wizard you will wear no armor and stay as far as possible for the melee.What is important is that you will not be capable to function as a wizard and a fighter at the same time (unless you are something like a eldritch knight).
It should be possible to go home and dress your wizardry robes or your armor and operate as a wizard or a fighter without limitation.
Sure, it man that to get to the same point of a character focusing on only one profession you will spend way more time, but it mean a lot for the longevity of the game and the level of attachment between teh player and the character.Done this way after you have reached the peak in one profession you can learn another and keep playing with the same character.
Done your way you will have to create a new character from scratch, while your old character become only a memory.
The old character would not be a memory unless you only allow one character per account. They have already confirmed that they intend to implement almost all classes as well as class archetypes etc... as well as allowing multiple characters per player. Your wizard does not have to disappear when you are playing on your fighter, he's right there at the character selection screen when you want to pull him out and nuke some things.
Of course I do see some awesomeness, and horrible abuse to this system in a game of this type however.
The awesome, Having a bandit alt on the opposite side of the world, keeping him in said community (assuming the 2 characters never meet, and their lives are totally separate, I like this idea, if they start sharing resources it gets less cool)
The horrible abuse, Character Bob from kingdom X, who happens to also be Joe from kingdom Y. As Joe, he learns of a supprise attack planned on kingdom Y. Signs on as Bob, and warns his men.
While I like the idea of spies, I do have to dislike the idea of seamless transfer of information. But I suppose it is something that can be worked out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your idea would mean:
- you never had a reason, game mechanics wise, to play an alternate character
- you can always choose for any task the configuration that is optimal, meaning if Fighters are currently perceived as stronger in PvP than Mages, you will only see Fighters in PvP
- characters that are sufficiently advanced are all like every other character that is advanced as far, i.e. can do anything
Ask yourself in D&D if you would like it that as soon as the GM revealed the endboss as something highly resistant to magic that everyone would instantly respec to Babarian, or when entering the city of thieves everyone would always be a Rogue...
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you need limitations, a player must choose wether she wants fightery skills or magey skills and if she can mix those two she must be weaker in each (edited: thx kyrt) than a full version of either.I don't see why it should be a "either" proposition for the skill sets.
If you are operating as a fighter you will (almost certainly) worn a heavy armour, use weapons and shields, move in the tick of the melee.
if you are operating as a wizard you will wear no armor and stay as far as possible for the melee.What is important is that you will not be capable to function as a wizard and a fighter at the same time (unless you are something like a eldritch knight).
It should be possible to go home and dress your wizardry robes or your armor and operate as a wizard or a fighter without limitation.
Sure, it man that to get to the same point of a character focusing on only one profession you will spend way more time, but it mean a lot for the longevity of the game and the level of attachment between teh player and the character.Done this way after you have reached the peak in one profession you can learn another and keep playing with the same character.
Done your way you will have to create a new character from scratch, while your old character become only a memory.
This is a roleplaying game people. MMO or not. When the hell did going home and choosing if you wanted to wear your wizard robe, smithy apron or full plate armour become the norm? Infact why is that even remotely possible? I don't want to go an adventure with a party, my sword to become damaged and then the wizard to nip home to put on his smithy apron to forge me a new sword. I can't think of anything more ridiculous. I suppose he's going to tame a horse on his way back as he is also Dr. Doolittle, and then ride back on a steam engine as he's also an engineer. I wouldn't mind if you then added light sabres to the game as it would make about as much sense.
Your character is an entity in a game world which is created to be just that. He has a name, he is now part of that lore and will play a role in it's story. Despite every other titles greatest efforts to dilute and destroy the idea that anything is remotely important or has any sacredness*, I for one want to see some integrity return to RPG games.
Another point, no you would not just forget your character. Why has this debate began catering for the nonsensical. Your characters would be capable of different things, all of which persistently required by the game world. You would use your bard to be a bard, your shop keeper to run your shop and your warrior to kill things.
Can we also move this discussion to the, you know, Crafter as a Main thread, instead of the PvP griefing thread?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a roleplaying game people.
So why creating a character and spending your time developing only him is worse than making a plethora of characters, one of each profession you want to experience?
To all the above, I will spend my time to developing 1 character 20 ways or 20 characters 20 ways.
What is better:
- Jake know enough of animal husbandry to heal the horse and enough smiting to mend your weapon
or
- I will load my alt Mike to heal the hose and my alt Robert to repair your weapon
"I will load XXX" is way more immersion breaker.
They have already confirmed that they intend to implement almost all classes as well as class archetypes etc... as well as allowing multiple characters per player.
In the last post of his I have seen Rayan was speaking of a skill based game.
As you have more up to date information, can you link the relevant post?
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Have a look at Warhammer Online's PVP system, there were zones divided by level, and if you entered, for example, a level 8-12 PVP zone as a level 20, in a few minutes (seconds?) you were transformed into a chicken. One bad effect was the mid-level areas became starved for players, but that seemed to happen in WoW as well...
Some sort of punishment for griefing would be cool. Player vs player is great (and makes the game replayable!).
Another thing WHO did well was it raised your level if you were underleveled in an open PvP zone. You'd still get your butt kicked, but it was certainly much more fun and competitive--
PLEASE just do not do what WoW did and try to make 2 games out of one, keeping the PVP gear and raid gear (if raiding is going to happen) separate. Or to take a lesson from WoW, maybe make a stat like resilience not 'work' outside of a PvP zone. It made casual and non-PvP gamers incredibly frustrated.
Balancing raid and PvP strengths are going to be difficult, and I think Blizzard still struggles with both mechanics--maybe the opposite--adjust player DPS while in raids and instances upward, but normalize it outside so it actually takes skill vs gear to compete in PvP situations?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a roleplaying game people.So why creating a character and spending your time developing only him is worse than making a plethora of characters, one of each profession you want to experience?
To all the above, I will spend my time to developing 1 character 20 ways or 20 characters 20 ways.
What is better:
- Jake know enough of animal husbandry to heal the horse and enough smiting to mend your weaponor
- I will load my alt Mike to heal the hose and my alt Robert to repair your weapon"I will load XXX" is way more immersion breaker.
They have already confirmed that they intend to implement almost all classes as well as class archetypes etc... as well as allowing multiple characters per player.In the last post of his I have seen Rayan was speaking of a skill based game.
As you have more up to date information, can you link the relevant post?
Actually you were right, I misread the FAQ I guess, He did imply however that there were still paths/chains/archetypes to follow leading you to specializations not unlike classes. Now when you are talking basics for things like healing a horse, that would likely be within a normal characters realm, if not a magic item, assuming that horses are even designed to take damage. Mending a weapon has always been NPC territory and thus irrelevant of your character.
The lesser simple day to day things I would expect to see a character still be able to do for himself, but also benefit from the aid of a team. IE somehow being able to gain some HP back, but obviously not heal himself and tank a boss and do notable damage to that boss at the same time.
Anyways what is ridiculous is the "Poof I changed from my full plate armor, and now my strength and melee combat skills are gone and now I'm instantly a caster as I put on this hat" idea. How exactly does one instantly forget everything, and instantly remember everything. Nobody is implying that you will need 10 different characters to do the basic tasks of one character, but you will need 3 characters if you are wanting to play 3 completely different styles of game-play. Say someone makes a crafter/dealer character, a stealthy roguish character and a support/healer character. All of them should be able to be on their own, fully playable on their own even if they were your only character, but you have the option to play as something else when you get bored of your normal style, you can switch.
Nobody is expecting a system where you HAVE to have alts, but I don't think 1 character that is either simultaneously a master of everything, or somehow temporally becomes a specialist in something but then forgets and becomes a master of something else on the fly makes much sense either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Um... Onishi... you are aware this game intends to have PC crafters and such right (thus Mending weapons IS an NPC deal, just not likely an adventurer thing)? Not everybody is a hero, there are going to be plenty of laborers and such. (Actually, I'm rather interested in running a restaurant myself.)
A quick patchup etc... I doubt will be a task that requires a super crafter or anything if there are not NPCs then it is something that they expect you to be able to have done in less then 2 minutes in town (whether that means crafter players are so common you can quickly find one, or there are NPCs to do it), I certainly expect crafters, you may have noticed one of my 3 examples of possible separate character types was a crafter/dealer character.
What I'm saying is I don't expect every fighter to be a master of all crafting, but I do expect every fighter to expect little downtime if his weapon is damaged and he did not specialize in repairs. Whether that particular task is handled by an NPC, or a crafter, but odds are assuming the game is well designed, he will not be searching for hours for a perfect repairman or forced to make a crafter alt just to get his weapon fixed and back in action.