Goblin Squad Member
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So much better than what? Nothing? Because that's what PFO there is right now.
Maybe after, ya know, they've actually made a game you can compare it to NWN?
It's the idea here that your 15 bucks a month is somehow better than mine, and that you not playing and spending yours is going to hurt them, and somehow that totally invalidates what anyone else may want, which could simply be "not a NWN clone".
That and the "scew your vision Goblinworks, we want an updated NWN" thing kinda bothers me to.
But, discuss away. My snarkiness in no way is meant to say you can't have your opinion, that it sucks, per se, or not discuss it. I can say, though, I hope to God they don't go that route, and stay with their vision.
Peace!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just want to talk about which road to take.
I have heard good things about the yellow brick one that leads through a field of fun poppies.
In addition to that though....if you got time to kill between now and when PFO comes out I highly recommend you give ALFA a chance to provide you one hell of a Persistent World Role Play experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fair Question. The OGL and other source material by Piazo form a comprehensive, play tested, and fairly balanced system. Instead of reinventing and balancing a new mechanic for player interaction, Goblinworks could be spending resources on figuring out how to put that material into an online game. We know its basically been done before in Neverwinter Nights. Where the OGL falls short is economic and social game play, but if Goblinworks is going to invent an arbitrary mechanism for skills they might as well use the skill system from the OGL. The variety of Crafting(Int) and Professional(Wis) skills could form the backbone of economic and social interaction. How could it be so much better? More resources on implementation, less on resources on R&D.
Well, I think the number one problem is they are going to license an engine, not build one from scratch. The Pathfinder TTRPG stuff is vetted and tested, but for table top turn based play. This is not what they want to produce.
Actually I was hoping my cash would be just as good as yours. There are plenty of companies that ignore me, I'm just trying to keep myself from getting disappointed. Every endurance bar game out there is “not a nwn clone.” If you want “not a nwn clone” you have options. If you want a large scale MMO nwn clone you don't have options. So if you don't want a nwn clone you can play another game, I can't. Since WotC doesnt' do 3.5 anymore, Piazo is the best company approach for getting a video game based on the OGL, so I thought I'd try.
Well, I could counter with, nobody does NWN as well as NWN so why do you want Goblinworks to reinvent that 10 year old wheel, instead of just playing NWN? If I want to play an open sandbox type fantasy MMO, then I don't have any other choices, whereas if you want to play NWN, go play it! I'm waiting to see what they come up with. I may not like it, you may like it. Who knows?
I totally want the open ended sandbox stuff that Goblinworks is putting forward, but I also want the OGL mechanics. You seem to be ok with Goblinworks announcing to the Pathfinder culture that the Pathfinder rules are not good enough for them, but you have a problem with people objecting to not using the Pathfinder rule set on the Pathfinder forums?
No, and that's my fault. I'm not mad you're saying NWN is the way they should go, I'm saying you're wasting your time, based on what they've already said in other threads in this forum. You've also given no good reason to, other than "it best mimics the 3.5 skillset", which they aren't using for their MMO.
As you are invoking a higher power, you are clearly more attached to these issues than me. The vision of Goblinworks is like a beautiful shining city up on a hill. My focus isn't so lofty. I just want to talk about which road to take.
Well, you may want to consider the higher power, because the road you want to take isn't on anyone's map and the bridge is out.
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I think a similar game system as NWN in a more modern graphics MMO can actually become a big hit.
+1
Make it Golarion-falvored, but also easy for players to invent their own, worlds, places, npcs, deities, etc.NWN was the best concept so far!!
I agree, but both concepts need to be in play - both a company and player driven world would rock. Sooner or later Goblin Works will makes it's CEO stupidly rich and company will move on to something else. Then PF-online dies. But NWN 1 STILL exists because the tools were left for players to keep the home fie burning. Bioware gets a HUGE thumbs up from me for designing the game in this way.
Can't see it myself, but...
The fan base are amazing - the amount of hacks, mods and custom content keeps the game going.
I just want to point out to thoose not aware to not be alarmed. "Hack's" in NWN is actually the same as mods. It is new resources or such that change default one. The latter is also called overrides some times...depending on how it is implemented.
Good posts here everyone!
Yes the DM's in NWN surely add some flavor...
I think any new D&D:ish multiplayer and/or full-out MMO game coming out today should look at NWN PW servers and then just do ONE big server/NWN PW with better graphics, enhanced gameplay, more people on...well just like the NWN PW's but more of everything if you could say so...
It is a concept that I am sure will work...
Well, all powerful DM's might be a no-no but too some extent I'm sure you can even follow that basic idea...
If I had a dollar for every one of these...
Oh, If I had a dollar for every one of you MMO-kidz.
Like the MMORPG-forums are not enough...
But ok...you will actually win this. It seems that developer is already making "what you all want". Like no other company has done before right...doh...
I just came here grasping for a straw and it just came loose...
So once again...knock yourselves out...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, If I had a dollar for every one of you MMO-kidz.
Like the MMORPG-forums are not enough...
But ok...you will actually win this. It seems that developer is already making "what you all want". Like no other company has done before right...doh...
I just came here grasping for a straw and it just came loose...
So once again...knock yourselves out...
You know what I want?
A modern, story-driven, co-op party-based version of Neverwinter Nights, set in the Pathfinder universe.
You know why I don't talk about that here? Because this is an MMO project that is going in a certain direction, and because I know that what I want isn't what other people want, and that trying to push a project to conform to my desires could result in the project doing just that, and then crashing and burning when it turns out that my desires were mine alone.
You know what I want?
A modern, story-driven, co-op party-based version of Neverwinter Nights, set in the Pathfinder universe.
You know why I don't talk about that here? Because this is an MMO project...
Wow...you're handing this to me on a platter.
I am also astonished that you to some extent seem to agree with me.
Ok, lets break it down: so, we have a co-op party based game...BUT the game is played on a big server with many other such parties AND there might even be small wars between some factions...
Ummm, but stop...isn't that like the definition of MMO almost?
Or you mean that co-op can't be MMO? So what is MMO....single player?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow...you're handing this to me on a platter.
I am also astonished that you to some extent seem to agree with me.
Ok, lets break it down: so, we have a co-op party based game...BUT the game is played on a big server with many other such parties AND there might even be small wars between some factions...
Ummm, but stop...isn't that like the definition of MMO almost?
Or you mean that co-op can't be MMO? So what is MMO....single player?
A game world designed to be shared by thousands of players, sometimes operating solo, sometimes operating in small groups, sometimes operating in large groups, and sometimes operating in armies, is very different from a game designed to be played in a small group and only in a small group.
You're not seeing the forest because of all the trees...
I'll break down NWN for you...
- you can play solo
- you can play in any size group
- you can wage wars between factions/armies
Just add more people in total (bigger servers) and VOILA...you have your precious MMO...The DM client is where it gets tricky...but a mayor part of that can be/would have to be skipped...
Personally however I think that focus should be on playing in groups of 3-6 players...since we want to get closer to PnP right. So when players do that they should be rewarded. More XP when travelling in that sized group or however you choose to solve it. Still this does not EXCLUDE playing solo or playing in mega-groups...
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're not seeing the forest because of all the trees...
I'll break down NWN for you...
- you can play solo
- you can play in any size group
- you can wage wars between factions/armiesJust add more people in total (bigger servers) and VOILA...you have your precious MMO...
Hahahahahaha
Yeah, that's right. Just take Neverwinter Nights and add more players - instant success.
I didn't say instant success...I said you'd get an MMO...as per your defintion.
Per my defintion it already is an MMO...
But yes....NWN would also work great with more players. If you touched up the graphics a bit I think it would be a success as well.
Not in the way of blowing stupified mainstream games like WoW out of the market but more like in the company who did this could probably make a buck...cause it would have enough audience...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hahahahahaha
Yeah, that's right. Just take Neverwinter Nights and add more players - instant success.
+ an unhealthy dose of 4th edition and voila.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In only the loosest sense...
NWN isn't anywhere close to being an MMO, anymore than Diablo II or Titan Quest are.
They are all single player PC games, that offer an option for LAN or internet cooperative play, if someone chooses to host it.
Just adding more people wouldn't make that any more so.
Umm Coldman,
I am assuming you are ignorant to the whole NWN thing...cause otherwise you would know that the stereotype MMO Neverwinter has much more to do with WoW than Neverwinter Nights.
For some reason they choose that name....doh...
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+ an unhealthy dose of 4th edition and voila.
Nah, that can't be a real MMORPG, the women on the home screen (right-hand side) has breasts are far too proportional to her body size.
Kryzbyn,
have you actually played NWN on a persistent world server? ...or you're just "winging" it...?
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Goblin Squad Member
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is very different from a game designed to be played in a small group and only in a small group.
I suppose this boils down to your personal interpretation of the words "small group" as there are a number of NWN servers that still average 40+ people at any given time. And this isn't bringing into account DMs who are actively running long term campaigns, or single shot events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Umm Coldman,
I am assuming you are ignorant to the whole NWN thing...cause otherwise you would know that the stereotype MMO Neverwinter has much more to do with WoW than Neverwinter Nights.
Given the scant details we've been given on what Neverwinter will look like, I don't think there's any way you can say that.
For some reason they choose that name....doh...
Probably because the game takes place in the city of Neverwinter and its environs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have indeed. Back when NWN was fresh and new.
I was on a dedicated server that I logged into with around 20 or 30 other people. It was up 24/7, and had custom content.
It was like playing any other LAN game, it was just on the internet.
I could list the myriad of technical differences between NWN and an actual MMO, but it is clear that your definition of "MMO" is as faulty as your definition of "WOW clone", and such a discussion would be pointless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Umm Coldman,
I am assuming you are ignorant to the whole NWN thing...cause otherwise you would know that the stereotype MMO Neverwinter has much more to do with WoW than Neverwinter Nights.
Apart from the fact it is allowing players to create modules through the foundry, and it's D&D. From the massive vacuum of information spare a few interviews, we know absolutely nothing solid about the game save for the fact they ripped off Dragon Age Origins' intro cinematic in their trailer. I mean come on, I've never even played Dragon Age Origins and I realised that immediately. Someone should get fired for that.
But yes you were almost right, I was feigning ignorance. I have actually played NwN for years on PWs. If I were to be totally honest I was purposefully leaving bait for Scott which you gobbled up no problem.
Sorry.
Given the scant details we've been given on what Neverwinter will look like, I don't think there's any way you can say that.
I've been readin a lot about that game and how it seems to be going developed.
At first there actually was a very small glimpse of hope. Cryptic actually announced that they where going to make more of a co-op/multiplayer game.
Then came the shitstorm from the MMO-kidz..."Thats not an MMO" and so on...
Then came the buyout from Perfect World entertaiment and stamped down the conclusion that this WAS going to be a full out MMO and they actually changed the small "deviation" that Cryptic had in mind.
Both of the companies are however producers of WoW-clones...so there is no hope left there. Perfect World even more so than Cryptic.
NWN isn't anywhere close to being an MMO, anymore than Diablo II or Titan Quest are.
First,
Diablo is a closed multiplayer game between just a few players that are supposed to be in a group.There is a difference compared to the up to 74 player NWN OPEN servers. In NWN you can even have more players...I'll come to that.
I think when you are saying "That is not MMO"...what you are really meaning is "That is not a WoW-clone"....and you're right...it isnt.
I think the WoW generation has been really brainwashed with this.
You have forgotten the difintion of what MMO is and you need to understand that it is REALLY BROAD. Can you dig it?
I'll break it down:
- Massive. Umm, ok, how much is massive? 74? 500? 1000? In NWN you can actually connect servers to each other...and using external databases (which is more the standard than the exception) you can get communication and other across. Meaning you can have hundreds of players on an NWN world (there are a couple of theese worlds). In WoW most of the gameplay is played in instances that are even smaller than that. In worst case they're just soloing in WoW.
I think that also an "open world" approach is somewhat important here even if not stated...or "persistent world" if you like...where you can log in or out...the "life in the world" still continues. NWN ticks that box beautifully.
- Multiplayer. Damn right! A lot more than WoW.
- Online. Yes, it ticks this box too.
I could list the myriad of technical differences between NWN and an actual MMO, but it is clear that your definition of "MMO" is as faulty as your definition of "WOW clone", and such a discussion would be pointless.
OMG.....DIFFERENCES?? There are differences?? Lets go and hide!!
I mean isn't this what it is all about? To ACTUALLY finally have an MMO that really is different and not just saying it is?
I've said it before...I feel the stereotype-MMO-lovers here (as in most places where "MMO" is mentioned) are in heavy majority so I should probably give up...
I mean its not like the developers are on my payroll anyway...so just because I write here that I would like that they glance on NWN doesn't mean they'll actually do it...maybe that will give you some comfort...
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I'll break it down:
- Massive. Umm, ok, how much is massive? 74? 500? 1000? In NWN you can actually connect servers to each other...and using external databases (which is more the standard than the exception) you can get communication and other across. Meaning you can have hundreds of players on an NWN world (there are a couple of theese worlds). In WoW most of the gameplay is played in instances that are even smaller than that. In worst case they're just soloing in WoW.
- Multiplayer. Damn right! A lot more than WoW.
- Online. Yes, it ticks this box too.
WoW is an MMO. Not more so or less so. It just is an MMOG. I am not sure how you play WoW, but a lot gameplay is not just grouping in instances. Players can, and do, quest together and also take that dynamic into instances (as you said).
I regularly group with guild members to complete quest chains or run in instances. I do not limit my interaction with other players to just instances. You can also throw in battlegrounds as well. So its just not solo until you need to run an instance.
Poor Kryzbyn, not getting all the support he is used to like on the MMORPG boards :-P
You all want to know one funny thing? Neverwinter Nights actually IS the first MMO! Well, not the Neverwinter Nights we are talking about here actually but one usually referred to as AOL Neverwinter Nights.
It is a lot older even than the NWN we are talking about here...it more looks like Pool of Radiance or something...it was expensive as hell...you payed by the minute to play...but yes...it was the first MMO:
LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)
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Still, is less than a 100 players really a good qualifier for "massively"? I imagine "massively" kind of starts with a population in the 100s, not just 74 or whatever.
I have a friend who is '1', but I would describe him as massive. Massive is subjective so to avoid pointless arguments perhaps we can leave the definition of massive as dependent on individual perception.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a friend who is '1', but I would describe him as massive. Massive is subjective so to avoid pointless arguments perhaps we can leave the definition of massive as dependent on individual perception.
Agreed... to some extent. While the word massive does have a verifiable definition, it's subjective per person and environment and could range anywhere from fifty to the hundreds.
Off topic (slightly), does anyone here still play NWN (aside from Superfly as I think we all know that answer)? Is anyone interested in returning? Or trying it out for the first time?
I ask because I've long been considering putting my 8+ years of NWN experience (building, DMing, Admin, etc.) into trying my hand at building a Golarion based server. And I wanted to know if there would potentially be any interest in such an endeavor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed... to some extent. While the word massive does have a verifiable definition, it's subjective per person and environment and could range anywhere from fifty to the hundreds.
Off topic (slightly), does anyone here still play NWN (aside from Superfly as I think we all know that answer)? Is anyone interested in returning? Or trying it out for the first time?
I ask because I've long been considering putting my 8+ years of NWN experience (building, DMing, Admin, etc.) into trying my hand at building a Golarion based server. And I wanted to know if there would potentially be any interest in such an endeavor.
There has been interest for this before and like I said then, I would be there in a heartbeat. I'd offer my help yet I fear I have no talents for running NwN servers...in which case I'll do what I do best and play on it ^^
With the games cheap availability at GOG.com, it might be a nice un-official place for the PFO community to hang out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There has been interest for this before and like I said then, I would be there in a heartbeat. I'd offer my help yet I fear I have no talents for running NwN servers...in which case I'll do what I do best and play on it ^^
With the games cheap availability at GOG.com, it might be a nice un-official place for the PFO community to hang out.
A way for folks to meet up, RP, etc. was a huge impetus for me behind considering this. It would also allow people to roll up the PCs they plan on playing on PFO and getting some great RP in, form alliances, enemies, etc.
And always glad to have players. :)
If interested in building though let me know, I've trained more than my share of builders and the Aurora toolset is remarkably easy to get the hang of.
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Agreed... to some extent. While the word massive does have a verifiable definition, it's subjective per person and environment and could range anywhere from fifty to the hundreds.
Off topic (slightly), does anyone here still play NWN (aside from Superfly as I think we all know that answer)? Is anyone interested in returning? Or trying it out for the first time?
I ask because I've long been considering putting my 8+ years of NWN experience (building, DMing, Admin, etc.) into trying my hand at building a Golarion based server. And I wanted to know if there would potentially be any interest in such an endeavor.
I play now and then, and my partners brother has NWN as his main game - on a French run server, with a French forum (I don't speak French). He's always trying to get me to sign up, but won't 'Comprehend Languages" cast I'm not sure I'll get what is going on.
So,Yes, and oh hell yes. Honestly I don't really care about 'modern' graphics/sounds, it's the game play I am more interested in. If done right your PF-NWN may turn out a better PF Online experience than PF Online... May be.
Care to start a thread? I guess the d20 Games area on this forum would be better than derailing this thread.
Very keen,
S.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I play now and then, and my partners brother has NWN as his main game - on a French run server, with a French forum (I don't speak French). He's always trying to get me to sign up, but won't 'Comprehend Languages" cast I'm not sure I'll get what is going on.
So,Yes, and oh hell yes. Honestly I don't really care about 'modern' graphics/sounds, it's the game play I am more interested in. If done right your PF-NWN may turn out a better PF Online experience than PF Online... May be.
Care to start a thread? I guess the d20 Games area on this forum would be better than derailing this thread.
Very keen,
S.
Sounds like an idea, I'll post up something either there or in the video games area later tonight.
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Off topic (slightly), does anyone here still play NWN (aside from Superfly as I think we all know that answer)? Is anyone interested in returning? Or trying it out for the first time?
I know The 8th Dwarf is a fan of NWN and would probably be interested. Not sure if he is paying much attention to these forums though at the moment. I will point him towards this one when I see him next.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am one of those NWNers, who grieves at the botch of NWN2, and the fumble of the entire license. Here are my 2 coppers:
NWN1 was not a stellar game from a mechanics/graphics/engine standpoint. It excelled in that it allowed all those persistent worlds to spring up, with scripting control, massive customization, creature creation, item creation... as far as it went. The toolset was clunky and had a horrifying learning curve to actually produce "good" content.
What killed NWN1 was the unexpected. When persistent worlds became the wonderful places they were (and a few still are), there was no way for the developer/license holder to capture a revenue stream to support further development. Oops. They tried desperately to fix this with the paid-module format, that required a live internet connection to play single-player through some great content, but it neglected the vital point of community created content multi-player. It didn't work well, and wasn't in the spirit of the persistent world multiverse out there.
I still have very good friends who I've met a decade ago on a NWN persistent world. That kind of community isn't easily captured, or recreated from scratch. Will Pathfinder Online do it? I dunno, but I (and a lot of my old NWN friends) sure hope so.
I realize it is far too late in the development of PFO to make drastic changes at such a core level, but I've always thought that if Bioware/WoC/Atari/whoever had just created some sort of tollbooth on the road to the persistent worlds created by community, we'd likely be playing NWN 7 or somesuch today. The need for the developer to make money on the product is not just vital, it is essential to any game. I would gladly have paid, I dunno... say $5 or $10 a month to access my beloved persistent world. I did contribute financially to the hosting costs of my favorite PW. Why not give that money to the game developer, in exchange for the hosting of content that the community, and in specific, MY community created? Tollbooth... and the continued development and hosting costs are taken care of, while the players/GMs/communities get a place that they can play in together, and is accessible to anyone with the game, where they create the world, or at least heavily customize it.
If I hope PFO is in any way like NWN... it's in the community content that fostered such deep and abiding friendships (and at least 2 marriages among my old group).