How about making this game by glancing at Neverwinter Nights?


Pathfinder Online

1 to 50 of 100 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

I am a long time player of Neverwinter Nights 1 (NWN1). I think that game is a loose end that was left by Bioware.

All MMO developers of today have been blinded but what is already there. Noone is looking what can be done differently.

I think a similar game system as NWN in a more modern graphics MMO can actually become a big hit.

One has to rethink what MMO stands for however and make a high-risk niched harcore game for D&D vetarans...

Now...looking at NWN persistent world servers playing...what can be "stolen". Well, pretty much I think.

First the game itself. Let's just say Bioware made a great job and any developer just looking at this could probably make a lot from it.

Even though the game engine is utterly old i think it just needs some small changes to be able to be used for a modern game.

The gameplay system and GUI...its also something you can almost use straight out.

I think the gameplay system and combat system in this game is the closest to D&D/pathfinder you can get without going straight out turn based.

It is a "middle way" between pure action (fps-style) and turn based that works very well I think. Most MMO games are somewhere in the middle of this system and the pure action...with even most new MMO's actually going full action.

There is a tendency of newer games to move more towards action...so actually looking back at NWN is a good thing here I think.

Lets now look at the massively aspect. I think one should not be blinded by the effect of many players. I have played on NWN worlds with just a few playes on that felt a lot more alive than a WoW server with probably thousands on...

So..its not just about throwing thousands of players on one server. I think it is about "forcing" players to work together. Yeah...I know...this is more co-op....but this is an important part of what a roleplaying game is i think.

In this case thinking MMO is wrong. Thinking co-op is right. You don't want to have the normal MMO where everyone is running around soloing...

We have a big world full of real humans....so lets make use of it and actually use thoose humans...

Another thing you see in most MMO's is the over the top on "fantasy". I mean this is beyond fantasy. Every thing you see looks so unreal. That sucks! Go back to what D&D stands for!

I could probably go on but I'll spare you for now.

If anyone wonders what the hell I'm talking about and what is this game I'm talking about...feel free to ask...

(However...the only way to understand Neverwinter Nights, how it works and how it is different from all MMO's is to play it.)


I touched the "massively" aspect a bit but I forgot to mention another thing that sets NWN apart from all other MMO's and what brings it closer to proper D&D/pathfinder.

Dungeonmasters (DM's). Yes, they are quite common on NWN persistent world (PW) servers. They have different roles but mostly the ones you are used to from when playing pen and paper (PnP).

Personally...I think this part should be toned down in computer games. It maybe worked ok on the NWN PW's but still the DM in a computer game needs to be less leading and more "spicing it up".

Lets face it....the computer pretty much playes the part of the DM....or actually the "builder" that prepared the adventure in advance. A leading DM just endangers the builders vision of the world and its balance.

I'm not saying no to DM's...just that the role needs to be different and more periferal to what we are used to from PnP.

Now having a game that people actually pay for automatically changes the role of the DM even without us knowing or wanting it.

In NWN the DM's where pretty much admins of the servers as well...or at least the admins right hands so to speak. In my mind that led to a lot of awkward situations and misinterpretations of what roleplaying is.

In a game where the player is a "customer" and the admins are the "seller"...this risks of turning the table completely...or too much so to speak...but neither of theese two situations are really good for roleplaying...

I don't have a solution to that...


i certainly hope not because that would technically be dnd online and damn if that didnt have issues.

nvwn is a good game series dont get me wrong but it makes for a terrible mmo .

i hope that this game will have a tried and true system and focus on sheer bulk and quality of content and gameplay over anything else.


With all due respect - you got it all wrong!

Sounds to me like you never really played NWN...

...if you did you would know that the combat is much slower...and the biggest difference...it actually uses some kind of phased-turn based system which is very close to what D&D is supposed to be.

DDO is more like an action game...far from anything that has to do with a roleplaying game. You even have to aim the bow at the enemy...has more to do with shooter-style skill than rolling dices...

I think you are one of thoose that actually like the MMO's we have today...

If DDO would be even REMOTELY like NWN I would play that instead of the 12 years old game or what you think??


Stasiscell wrote:


nvwn is a good game series dont get me wrong but it makes for a terrible mmo .

So what makes a good MMO in your eyes then?

(Ok, this is a trick question...there is no good MMO....yet.)

Actually I'll go as far as to say that NWN is the only good true and hardcore fantasy MMORPG-like experience to be had still...


superfly2000 wrote:
Stasiscell wrote:


nvwn is a good game series dont get me wrong but it makes for a terrible mmo .

So what makes a good MMO in your eyes then?

(Ok, this is a trick question...there is no good MMO....yet.)

Actually I'll go as far as to say that NWN is the only good true and hardcore fantasy MMORPG-like experience to be had still...

Agreed. NWN1 has been the only game that I have every played that really brought an experience that was close to tabletop gaming.

I would really like to see this new MMO be something where I could literally take my table top games into an online gaming environment.

Perhaps something where the Pathfinder world of Golarion is built as a sandbox playground, and everyone can log on and just run around and enjoy it... but where DMs could choose to run modules for their groups. It would even be cool if the modules were only slightly customizable variations on Pathfinder's adventure paths/modules/society adventures.

Goblin Squad Member

I support what superfly is saying here.

NWN online play is still the best multiplayer role playing game experience that can be found in a semi-automated video game. Not so much the original campaign but the fantastic multiplayer servers.

I spent almost 7 years playing in and eventually hosting a persistent world for NWN. With the right group of people, content, and GM the game can be absolutely incredible.

No video game since has come even close to providing the same kind of pen and paper influenced experience.

I don't expect that Pathfinder Online will carry over much of what made NWN great, but I am optimistic and hopeful that they will incorporate some of it.

Most important to me would be:

#1 inclusion of a GM client
#2 mechanics that resemble actual Pathfinder rules whenever possible
#3 system that promotes small regular groups, lending to a home game feel
#4 emphasis on in character role play

NWN was capable of doing all these things reasonable well. Pathfinder Online does not need to do them the same way, but I'm really hoping that a similar experience will be possible.


Yaaay....finally some that agree ;-)

I'd just like to change the order "Organized" put the things:

More like take his nr 1 and bring it to the last place...

Still an excellent list...

And yes...Pathfinder Online hopefully can do even more!

Frog God Games

The problem here is the game is meant to be persistent. Most modern MMOs are. With no GM client, where's the game?

While I think that a NWN-LIKE game for Pathfinder would be cool, does NWN really lend itself to that first "M" in "MMO" - "Massive"?


Chuck,

Your first line doesn't make sense to me. MMO definately don't have a GM client...I mean not in the sense of a DM...its more like administrators only.

The persistent part...don't know exactly what you mean...but that is a struggle in NWN...

About the first "M" in MMO concerning NWN. I've had this discussion with many and I think it is only playing with numbers. Personally I think you could call each and every NWN PW server an MMO in its own right.

Sure...bringing more players in IS a challange and changes the game to some extent. However...it is important to keep some of the feeling from NWN...if possible. Besides, I used the word GLANCE at NWN in the headline for this thread....can you dig it?

More people ARE supposed to bring "life" to the world...but just look at WoW or any similar...despite the millions of people it is all dead...there has to be something they didn't do right (out of some of ours viewpoint).

Frog God Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's not simply a numbers game. 100 people isn't massive.. neither is 500. In most games that's a good-sized guild.

Massive is 10 to 30 thousand people playing all at once in the same world... on a light night.

NWN servers are multiplayer online games.

OK, to fix my first line: With no GM running the show, what happens to the game? I assume there isn't one. You can't run an MMO by paying a ton of people to watch over every person and how they interact with everything else.

I know that you said to "glance" at it. I'm pointing out where it doesn't fit. That's all.

Goblin Squad Member

Chuck Wright wrote:
Massive is 10 to 30 thousand people playing all at once in the same world... on a light night.

In terms of 3D MMORPGs, I don't think you would see more than 3,000-4,000 on any single server at capacity. Eve Online pushed 10,000 or higher but it's built specifically for a large number of concurrent users.

May be wrong but I'm fairly sure that's more accurate.


Chuck,
Ok...lets get this straight. So you think that any game with less than 10 000 players is not massive? ...or maybe its 1000?...lets agree on an exact number...as that is what you want...

About GM...you do know that NWN HAS GM's right?

I only said I don't think they are so super important...I didn't say to remove them....(if you are commenting on why I wanted to move it last on the list that is. Last on the list is still on the list you know...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

superfly2000 in this thread http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/licensees/pathfinderOn line/theOnlyRealCompetitorICanThinkOf is being accused of calling everything a WoW clone in comparison to NWN 1. There are a lot of ways to classify a game system, but lets divide them into SUPERS vs. REALISTIC. WoW and the other health/endurance bar games usually fall into the SUPERS category. You have ablitites and you keep using them. Endurance limits you in time to how much you can use at one time, but it comes back (slow or fast based on abilities, potions, or rests), but you just keep using the same 6 or 8 abilities over and over in cycle. You usually don't have ammo in these types of games.

REALISTIC games like Neverwinter Nights 1 you have have ammo. Spells and special abilities are charges per day. You go into battle with limited resources and must REST out of combat to get them back. In NWN 1 you can MULTICLASS. In most of the SUPERS games you break off into talent trees (Wow) or advanced classes (SW:toR). Characters in SUPERS do not get to be Arcane healers unless the GM's allow it. In a SUPERS game you are generally a cog, basically a role assigned character, not a role playing character.

The REALISTIC type of games are way harder play balance, because there more options for players to choose from. This is doable, but it requires thought and consistency on the part a game developer. It hasn't really happened yet in MMO. I talk more about this here http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/licensees/pathfinderOn line/examplesOfYourMistakesAndOpportunitiesForInnovation

Chuck Wright asked if a game like NWW1 lends itself to an Massive Multiplay. 40 plus players per server, 10 or more on 10 or more PvP base raids, basic crafting for everyone, epic custom crafting from raid looting, epic gear at the end of a PvE raid lasting from 2 to 6 hours, 5 character remorts (where you can get better stats, extra feats, and custom skins), and more has been going at ONE SERVER for years. All that (except remorts which can be automated) runs without GM supervision. In addition they have GM events and story arcs (its an in character Role Play server) I haven't played at stormnexus (http://www.stormnexus.org ) in a while but it's certainly possible to do. Stormnexus world rules limit the Wizard class, but I didn't say it would be easy.

Goblin Squad Member

As a current and long time DM on a NWN persistent world, I hear and totally agree with what you are saying but I pretty much lost any hope when they announced "MMO". That is sadly not what NWN is and while NWN definitely far better caters to a pen and paper feel (with personal storylines and, you know, actual Dungeon Masters) than any MMO to date, I already pretty much figured that the Pathfinder game won't take that direction.

I'll decide once the Pathfinder game is out whether it is good or not by its own merits, but I can say confidently I won't be comparing it to NWN since there is no way for them to capture it with what they have even said so far. Disappointing, definitely, but how things will be.

*edit*

...ha Superfly, knew that sounded familiar. Seen you on the Bioware forums rather regular. Nice to see I'm not the only one that also haunts here. :)


Aleron,
I don't agree that NWN can not be called an MMO. At least not by defintion.

I started roaming here when I heard about a possible MMO by a smaller devleloper AND D&D 3,5:ish :-)


I see there is a lot of confusion here...so I'll try to explain more of what I mean.

The massive part is not the most important part of a game like this. There is no thing like the more players you put into this the better it gets.

We are talking about something PnP close here. That means groups of 2-5 players.

Sure...they should be able to walk in all directions and meet other playrs as well as wage wars faction wise but still the bulk of the adventuring should be done in theese 2-5 player groups. I hope we can all agree on that.

Now more about NWN and its massive part. Technically you actually CAN hook up as many players as you want. Some servers have actually splitted into 2, 3 or even 4 servers to accomodate a larger player base. Technically this can be as many servers as you want and the only thing limiting this is the amount of players you have avaliable...

So...again...NWN can be an MMO....and I'm sorry if this hurts your eyes.

Goblinworks Founder

I think this may conflict with the upcoming MMO by cryptic called Neverwinter Online.


Elth wrote:
I think this may conflict with the upcoming MMO by cryptic called Neverwinter Online.

We're talking about the style of NWN 1. Cryptic has already said there going to basically copy every other MMO like City of Heroes, DandD online, and WoW. I describe this above as a SUPERS game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's just not this game at all.

1) This game isn't even "3.5ish". No classes? It's got nothing to do with D&D rules, just whatever generic flavor they were able to appropriate into Golarion. D&D rules would frankly get in the way of the kind of game they are trying to make anyway...

2) It's a fundamentally competitive game, whether that's direct player killing, acquiring space to build kingdoms, amassing gold as a merchant, climbing the guild hierarchy, etc. That is how the majority of content is generated in this game - the players create the conflict, rather than the game designers or DMs doing the job.

Neverwinter Online being developed by Cryptic is the closest thing to what you are looking for. Focus on 5 player parties, a tool for customers to building adventures, and a system for publishing those adventures to many players. And yeah it's 4th edition, but that's going to be closer to 3.5 than whatever Pathfinder Online is making.

I just find the acquisition of Pathfinder IP for this project baffling. They can talk all about carrying on the "spirit" of Pathfinder, but from where I'm standing, tabletop D&D is all adventurers characters growing into legends and heroes (or anti-heroes), not about some players setting up a merchant shop and others lording over them as kings, then sending knights to kill each other to expand the kingdom's territory and so forth. It takes alot more than D&D adventures to build a living (as opposed to themepark) world, and that's just going to look strange and disappointing to most of your tabletop fans.


I'm gonna tell you a little story now. A story about Bioware, fantasy RPG's and multiplayer.

So Bioware had this tradition of making hardcore, kickass, no bs RPG's. No doubt. They took it a step further with NWN when simulating a PnP experience for the computer.

What they didn't quite expect initally was that players where going to try to run open worlds with many players.

But they noticed this and said...hey...look what theese players are doing...lets help them out so they can have more players on and that the server is still stable.

It was the birth of the MMO...at least for me (yes I know technically it wasn't but relax). This was years before WoW also.

Much later Bioware had grown quite a lot and started hiring a lot of economists to make the profit even greater. So...they looked at NWN...and said...look...you've spent 40% of the developing costs to make it possible to play multiplayer. Only 10% of thoose who bought the game even bothered with trying multiplayer.

The developers where scolded and told: "We forbid you to do a multiplayer game ever again!".

So...they continued on their long line of succesful single-player (SP) games.

In the background another company, also starting with B (Blizzard)...thought...hey...fantasy games are pretty cool...lets really concentrate on making a multiplayer one. To make a profit we will have to charge by the month, as this kind of endevour requires resources over a long period of time and the game will have to be supported, expanded and so on during its whole life-cycle.

The rest of that is history.

So...much later and after all thoose SP games Bioware starts to look around a bit. Now a lot bigger than before and owned by EA.

Hey, look...maybe that fantasy multiplayer thing wasn't so bad after all. Lets make a similar game and throw in some lazer swords...yaaay!

OK...summarizing...what would happen if theese economists would not exist. I am pretty sure Biowares next game after NWN would have been a MULTIPLAYER fantasy RPG and that it would have totally kicked ass and that all MMO's that we have today would be different. They'd be NWN clones instead of WoW clones...

...or what do you think?


FoxBat_ wrote:

It's just not this game at all.

1) This game isn't even "3.5ish". No classes? It's got nothing to do with D&D rules, just whatever generic flavor they were able to appropriate into Golarion. D&D rules would frankly get in the way of the kind of game they are trying to make anyway...

2) It's a fundamentally competitive game, whether that's direct player killing, acquiring space to build kingdoms, amassing gold as a merchant, climbing the guild hierarchy, etc. That is how the majority of content is generated in this game - the players create the conflict, rather than the game designers or DMs doing the job.

Neverwinter Online being developed by Cryptic is the closest thing to what you are looking for. Focus on 5 player parties, a tool for customers to building adventures, and a system for publishing those adventures to many players. And yeah it's 4th edition, but that's going to be closer to 3.5 than whatever Pathfinder Online is making.

This mistake hasn't been made yet, and if this game gets made as copy of EVE it will be a mistake. EVE is an economy based resource grinding game with culture game that includes combat tacked on top. You grind to buy extension for your spaceships for combat. Money = Gear. Social Groups = Fleets. A game built around a body is suppose to have some limits and unique CHARACTER. Using skills to make each Wizard = to ever other Wizard takes away the performance art of Game play and makes it just Grinding. Making the end game a grinding resource game will just not work. We need to show the devs a better way.


Uleaum wrote:

REALISTIC games like Neverwinter Nights 1 you have have ammo. Spells and special abilities are charges per day. You go into battle with limited resources and must REST out of combat to get them back. In NWN 1 you can MULTICLASS. In most of the SUPERS games you break off into talent trees (Wow) or advanced classes (SW:toR). Characters in SUPERS do not get to be Arcane healers unless the GM's allow it. In a SUPERS game you are generally a cog, basically a role assigned character, not a role playing character.

The REALISTIC type of games are way harder play balance, because there more options for players to choose from. This is doable, but it requires thought and consistency on the part a game developer. It hasn't really happened yet in MMO.

REALISTIC games where wizards cast spells and there are elves and...

You do realize that it's silly to use the word 'realistic' like that when you're not denoting realism, you're denoting preference?


Darwinism wrote:
Uleaum wrote:

REALISTIC games like Neverwinter Nights 1 you have have ammo. Spells and special abilities are charges per day. You go into battle with limited resources and must REST out of combat to get them back. In NWN 1 you can MULTICLASS. In most of the SUPERS games you break off into talent trees (Wow) or advanced classes (SW:toR). Characters in SUPERS do not get to be Arcane healers unless the GM's allow it. In a SUPERS game you are generally a cog, basically a role assigned character, not a role playing character.

The REALISTIC type of games are way harder play balance, because there more options for players to choose from. This is doable, but it requires thought and consistency on the part a game developer. It hasn't really happened yet in MMO.

REALISTIC games where wizards cast spells and there are elves and...

You do realize that it's silly to use the word 'realistic' like that when you're not denoting realism, you're denoting preference?

It's a relative term. I could have used granular. When I'm making this comparison I'm usually talking about GURPS, where a single gun shot can kill you no matter how much experience you have. In Champions you don't pick up gun on regular basis unless you spent the points for the damage class of gun. It's fantasy to say that superman can't fire a gun because he hasn't spent the points to use it. In D&D a wizard can use sword at big penalties but he can still use it.

edit: and I like to play both, I just hate for the wrong system to be used for the wrong style. Gurps Sucks at supers.


I played both nwn and nwn2 great games .

but a excess of options and realistic elements subtract from what makes a good mmo.

a rpg needs to have character development and a wide breath of choices and direction nwn is faithfull to the tabletop and gives that feeling.

however a mmo needs structure it needs to focus less on character development and more on the content of the game be it pve or pvp.

and most certainly a excess of choice simply means a greater selection of bad choices that can hurt your character and experience .

you may like being a special snowflake with a detailed backstory and interesting ability choices .

but no one else is going to give a damn they will only care about what you contribute to the party and other players who play the game like a mmo will crush you under the weight of their snow boots with all the other special flakes.

structure and direction is needed in mmos there is no such thing as a gms fiat in a 40 man dungeon or a battlefield .

mmos need to have a character creation process that is idiot proof and a learning curve that progresses .

its better to teach the players the mechanics and interactions of the game than set them loose and give them the impression that they can make it work their own way only to hit a wall .

Goblin Squad Member

superfly2000 wrote:
...or what do you think?

No.

WoW was not the first fantasy MMO. WoW was not the first popular and profitable MMO. EQ and UA came way before, and made money.

Bioware has long focused on single-player games, but each has exceptions. Baldur's Gate had multiplayer, but Torment did not. NWN was special because it gave the user a toolset to create their own adventures. As Bioware has focused their money and efforts to create moving, interactive, immersive adventures (KOTOR, ME, DA, etc.), trying to shoehorn in a meaningful multiplayer would have diminished the game.

Same thing with the Elder Scrolls games, really.


Uleaum wrote:
Elth wrote:
I think this may conflict with the upcoming MMO by cryptic called Neverwinter Online.
We're talking about the style of NWN 1. Cryptic has already said there going to basically copy every other MMO like City of Heroes, DandD online, and WoW. I describe this above as a SUPERS game.

which is the right direction use whats proven and implement changes i say spiff up the ui polish the game up to its max and shine it up soo damn well that it becomes something new . why reinvent the wheel when you can at rotary blades to it.

sadly most modern games dont do this and just cash in on whatever name / theme they are selling and make a profit plan based on hype


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Stasiscell wrote:

I played both nwn and nwn2 great games .

but a excess of options and realistic elements subtract from what makes a good mmo.

a rpg needs to have character development and a wide breath of choices and direction nwn is faithfull to the tabletop and gives that feeling.

however a mmo needs structure it needs to focus less on character development and more on the content of the game be it pve or pvp.

and most certainly a excess of choice simply means a greater selection of bad choices that can hurt your character and experience .

you may like being a special snowflake with a detailed backstory and interesting ability choices .

but no one else is going to give a damn they will only care about what you contribute to the party and other players who play the game like a mmo will crush you under the weight of their snow boots with all the other special flakes.

structure and direction is needed in mmos there is no such thing as a gms fiat in a 40 man dungeon or a battlefield .

mmos need to have a character creation process that is idiot proof and a learning curve that progresses .

its better to teach the players the mechanics and interactions of the game than set them loose and give them the impression that they can make it work their own way only to hit a wall .

Your right, that's the way every other MMO is played today. If things keep going like this PFO will be just like every other MMO out there. Now tell me again why I should play this one.

I write here http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/licensees/pathfinderOn line/examplesOfYourMistakesAndOpportunitiesForInnovation about how overly complex systems based on total player choice can overwhelm the player base, but with a 3.5 based system even if you make alot mistakes with your feats, you can still have a decent AB, AC, and hit points based on your level. If you make an error with spell selection you just change them. This lets you have a strongly guided character progression AND have customizablity, that everyone already knows how to use.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

NWN was tbh horrible, in hindsight. It was a poor 3-dimensional bastardization of the massively awesome Infinity Engine using the ugly larva of a ruleset that we can now understand was simply crafted to allow Pathfinder to bloom into a beautiful butterfly. If anything, I would base the game off Baldur's Gate and its ilk, add some physical action using Skills (Acrobatics, Climb, etc), figure out a way to make player-run(i.e. DM'ed) customizable instanced dungeons, and call it a day.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I still play NWN on a roleplaying server, Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mists btw, and NWN is one of the few online games that actualy can simiulate roleplaying online like it could be on table top. IMO the advantages of NWN that allowed it to last so long are the following:

1.) the toolkit and the vast support for player content,see the CEP for a good idea.

2.) and the ablity to host individual servers. I have seen servers on the FR, custom settings and more, I even play on a ravenloft setting one.

3.) the multiplayer ablity: IMO NWN is a multiplayer game, I have -never- finished a single singleplayer module in NWN, not the campaigns or anything. it is the online experince that creates such a great community.

These two things IMO help contribute to the life of NWN even all these years later.

If the pathfinder game is going to be like this, then it has the chance of being awesome. However if it is going to be like other MMOs, I do not think I would be intrested in it, I guess wait and see though.


caith wrote:
the ugly larva of a ruleset that we can now understand was simply crafted to allow Pathfinder to bloom into a beautiful butterfly.

Pathfinder is a 3.5 retroclone. Care to explain what's so ugly about the PF ruleset?


Just to clear some things out a bit here. NWN1 uses the 3.0 rules and NWN2 uses the 3.5 rules.

However both of theese are quite similar and what is important here...they are both similar to pathfinder...

So yes...there is (almost) nothing bad with the rules used in the NWN games...

I still don't think one should blindly look to what rules a game is using. What is important is how the adaption is made into the computer game. Personally I don't think there should be too many changes.

Why is it always when you hear about a Battletech multiplayer game or MMO as we now can await...it has to be an action game? Why can't it use the lovely turn based system that IS Battletech?

Goblin Squad Member

I loved the Aurora Engine - used to write adventures for my friends and play community modules. NWN1 did a lot of things really right in my opinion. The STORY wasn't one of them to me, but it did many things right by giving the players the power to craft some wonderful adventures.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The big issue I keep seeing is that many want the game to provide methods of player generated content. Giving players the tools to create their own content, even in an instanced setting, is just asking for problems.

Want to advance at a super fast pace? Play, Monsters In Boxes! - The original adventure that will get you all the character progression you want. This adventure features a massive dungeon locale where the monsters do not stand a chance, because they are strategically stuck in place and can't fight back against your relentless assault*.

You can go from there with the gimmicks that people would come up with for skill gains, specific treasure acquisition (if the option is there), and so on.

* Melee style characters may not see the same results as ranged characters and risk the chance of being attacked. Pocket healer(s) may be helpful with some encounters.


Splendid idea. Neverwinter Nights (the Bioware game. Not the AOL MMORPG, and definitely not NWN2!) got closer to the D&D experience than any other computer game ever.

It's definitely not a bad idea to look at the game and draw inspiration.


KaeYoss wrote:

Splendid idea. Neverwinter Nights (the Bioware game. Not the AOL MMORPG, and definitely not NWN2!) got closer to the D&D experience than any other computer game ever.

It's definitely not a bad idea to look at the game and draw inspiration.

I agree with you. It's 12 years old and still the best MMO I ever played.

No, it was not meant as such when first made, but I have seen simply brilliant living persistent worlds that support 64 people logged in at one time and even more through hacks and loopholes.

People have even hacked the game engine to make Star Wars and Firefly games.

It gets my vote for greatest video game ever.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Neverwinter nights is a game that was largely helped by a strong playerbase, custom content, and the fact that its sequel was made by the worst video game company in the world.

There is a happy medium that I think could be reached here: Just release a toolset, one that'll let people make and host their own worlds. Would it take longer to release the game by doing this? Yeah. Would it also expand your playerbase, the length of your game, and sales? I would think so. You can still have your giant Paizo server with the River Kingdom and all that, and the people who want smaller servers (Or even games in nongolarion worlds) can do so on their own.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BTLOTM wrote:
Neverwinter nights is a game that was largely helped by a strong playerbase, custom content, and the fact that its sequel was made by the worst video game company in the world.

Obsidian's critical flaw is in being far too ambitious; when they're not trying to overreach they make fantastic games more often than not. KotOR2 and Alpha Protocol were both cases of them overreaching and being shut down by deadlines, but New Vegas and the expansions I've played for it were well, well above-average. And, hell, Mask of the Betrayer is downright wonderful.

Even at their worst they're nowhere near the worst developers in the world.

Goblin Squad Member

BTLOTM wrote:
and the fact that its sequel was made by the worst video game company in the world.

This seems unnecessarily hyperbolic, and really, Obsidian's track record is only poor with overly-invested fanboys. They have Metacritic scores in the 80s for more than half their titles to-date.


BTLOTM wrote:
Neverwinter nights is a game that was largely helped by a strong playerbase, custom content, and the fact that its sequel was made by the worst video game company in the world.

Alpha Protocol was an underrated gem of a game with some of the best dialogue and reactivity I've ever seen and Fallout: New Vegas was the best RPG in the past few years*. You'd better check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.

(Not counting Skyrim, due to how recent it is)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

BTLOTM wrote:
There is a happy medium that I think could be reached here: Just release a toolset, one that'll let people make and host their own worlds. Would it take longer to release the game by doing this? Yeah. Would it also expand your playerbase, the length of your game, and sales? I would think so. You can still have your giant Paizo server with the River Kingdom and all that, and the people who want smaller servers (Or even games in nongolarion worlds) can do so on their own.

Would that also resolve the issues between the "PvP, Please!", and "No PvP!" camps?

The hosts advertising what kind of houserules they use, so everyone who enters knows what they're getting?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Scott Betts wrote:
BTLOTM wrote:
and the fact that its sequel was made by the worst video game company in the world.
This seems unnecessarily hyperbolic, and really, Obsidian's track record is only poor with overly-invested fanboys. They have Metacritic scores in the 80s for more than half their titles to-date.

Well KotoR 2 is a giant step down from KotoR 1, NWN2 was a giant step down from NWN1, and Fallout New Vegas was a poorly put together bug ridden barely playable game on release compared to Fallout 3. But they also had the advantage of being games that fanboys would flock to and buy straight out of release. I'll give you that I've never played Alpha Protocol, so they may have one good game they've developed. Regardless its more or less offtopic.

My point with including the toolset is simply that if included, people could make their own worlds like they did in NWN, which was one of the lasting things that made it popular.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BTLOTM wrote:
Well KotoR 2 is a giant step down from KotoR 1,

Yes, 8 whole points on the Metacritic scale.

Quote:
NWN2 was a giant step down from NWN1,

9 whole points here.

Quote:
and Fallout New Vegas was a poorly put together bug ridden barely playable game on release compared to Fallout 3.

And 7 points here.

So, sure, they didn't live fully up to the standard set by the studio responsible for the games that came before. That doesn't mean they're anything like the worst game studio out there.

In fact, you can say with pretty solid conviction that if Obsidian is working on a game, it will be fairly enjoyable.


BTLOTM wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
BTLOTM wrote:
and the fact that its sequel was made by the worst video game company in the world.
This seems unnecessarily hyperbolic, and really, Obsidian's track record is only poor with overly-invested fanboys. They have Metacritic scores in the 80s for more than half their titles to-date.

Well KotoR 2 is a giant step down from KotoR 1, NWN2 was a giant step down from NWN1, and Fallout New Vegas was a poorly put together bug ridden barely playable game on release compared to Fallout 3. But they also had the advantage of being games that fanboys would flock to and buy straight out of release. I'll give you that I've never played Alpha Protocol, so they may have one good game they've developed. Regardless its more or less offtopic.

My point with including the toolset is simply that if included, people could make their own worlds like they did in NWN, which was one of the lasting things that made it popular.

You know what the difference is between Bioware and Obsidian, though? They actually patch their games. Even months after release. They also have far better writers than just about any game company in business today. And you are lying to yourself if you think New Vegas is any buggier than 3.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Obsidian, regardless, this is way off track of the original purpose the topic, so to try to get it back there...

I just hope they would release a toolset like NWN did, this would give them the ability to make a game that might last for a long time and that alot of people might buy as opposed to another MMO in a flooded market.


I still believe we can have "an MMO done right"...

...but sure, if that doesn't work...I'll agree with you...and lets have an NWN-clone :-)

There are really too few of thoose :-)

Goblin Squad Member

Haven't they already decided this will in no way use the PF ruleset?
Which means it will in now way use a 3.5 framework?
So there won't be any similarites, at all, to NWN?

Carry on the discussion, by all means. I'm just sayin'.


Kryzbyn wrote:

Haven't they already decided this will in no way use the PF ruleset?

Which means it will in now way use a 3.5 framework?
So there won't be any similarites, at all, to NWN?

Carry on the discussion, by all means. I'm just sayin'.

Yes, they already stated this but that does not mean the masses can not change the few.

If they do not listen to us, then we will know PFO will fail or will not be unique, or will not live up to its potential.

If you want it similar to current game mechanics, by all means state it.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Anderlorn wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Haven't they already decided this will in no way use the PF ruleset?

Which means it will in now way use a 3.5 framework?
So there won't be any similarites, at all, to NWN?

Carry on the discussion, by all means. I'm just sayin'.

Yes, they already stated this but that does not mean the masses can not change the few.

If they do not listen to us, then we will know PFO will fail or will not be unique, or will not live up to its potential.

If you want it similar to current game mechanics, by all means state it.

Wow, ok. So.

If they don't make the game the way you want it, it will fail, or not be unique. NWN is not an MMO so it fails as one, and making an MMO like it will somehow be unique?

I don't want similar mechanics. I want what they've promised: a sandbox MMO based in Golarion. How would that not be unique?
How many MMOs out there are based in Golarion?


Kryzbyn wrote:
Anderlorn wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Haven't they already decided this will in no way use the PF ruleset?

Which means it will in now way use a 3.5 framework?
So there won't be any similarites, at all, to NWN?

Carry on the discussion, by all means. I'm just sayin'.

Yes, they already stated this but that does not mean the masses can not change the few.

If they do not listen to us, then we will know PFO will fail or will not be unique, or will not live up to its potential.

If you want it similar to current game mechanics, by all means state it.

Wow, ok. So.

If they don't make the game the way you want it, it will fail, or not be unique. NWN is not an MMO so it fails as one, and making an MMO like it will somehow be unique?

I don't want similar mechanics. I want what they've promised: a sandbox MMO based in Golarion. How would that not be unique?
How many MMOs out there are based in Golarion?

I want the same thing, but I also want the OGL mechanics. I don't want a 8 power click cycle based on DPS balancing. I want complex options to affect the world. I don't want a character based on how many months I've paid a subscription to train in certain skills. I want my character build choices and ability to play (or grind) to mean I access those skills with strategy and effort of play, not time in service.

NWN is an MMO. 40 players on a server at once is bigger than some end game instances have been. I played on nwn servers with more game options than pay to play servers.

I can't say they will fail at what their doing, but I haven't seen anything yet that gives me hope they will succeed. It could be so much better.

1 to 50 of 100 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / How about making this game by glancing at Neverwinter Nights? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.