Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, a magic automatic fantasy insurance system is much more immersive and realistic than a magic automatic fantasy resurrection system!
It is obvious he is trying to compromise for the sake of the discussion because he sees it as a lesser evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once UO introduced gear that had stats that mattered on them, they introduced the insurance system. Basically, you pay a set amount per item that you wish to insure. If you die, that money comes straight out of your bank, but your gear remains on your character instead of on your corpse. The only things that ended up on most people's corpses were potions, reagents and clothes. I'd even be content with a system like that. But dying and then suddenly appearing again, fully capable of combat again with in seconds? No thanks.Yes, a magic automatic fantasy insurance system is much more immersive and realistic than a magic automatic fantasy resurrection system!
I don't recall ever saying anything about realism or immersion. As a matter of fact, I know I didn't. Please don't make up statements for me. I simple do not like the full safe revolving door system.
And yes, you can vote that both systems suck. I don't care. I'm just trying to throw options out there.
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I'll go down the list here. Yes, it sells. It's pretty obvious that it does. WoW and soon TOR are perfect examples. They cater to the lowest common denominator. They make sure that a 5 year old can sit down, smash some buttons, and have gratification.I think it's been made blatantly obvious that what we find fun and engaging are on total opposite ends of the spectrum.
From what has been stated by Goblinworks so far, they're already straying away from the generic MMO that's available today. The skill system alone is a deviation from the hugely popular norm.
You speak of games that change the face of the...
It's true. WoW did change the industry. If anything, it established the notion that an MMO could make a CRAP TON of money. Most people will agree that, as far as gaming is concerned, WoW... did basically nothing. With its simplistic gameplay and simplistic progression and customization systems, it's contribution to gaming as a game in its own right is pretty danged small, if not insignificant.
However, as you said, it pioneered the MMO industry of marketing and sales, and it is THIS that we have to look at; what SPECIFICALLY caused this, what are modern MMO's changing for the better, and what can PO do to succeed, while simultaneously making it stand out from the other MMO's on the market when it comes out in several YEARS (as you mentioned :P).
At this time, the skill system being established is RADICALLY different from most mainstream MMO's, which rely on classes and specializations to create diversity. Honestly, this change to the formula is filled with problems, but when it is up and running, it'll be a pretty significant change... significant enough, I would argue, that it could be the strongest selling point of the title (besides the obvious draw of the amazing world of Golarion, & the River Kingdoms).
Additionally, such a system would likely mean the absence of the Holy Trinity. While modern MMO's are taking steps to eradicate this (GW2), it seems as though the institution will remain for quite some time due to it's simplicity (SWTOR). Depending on which direction it takes, this could further help to differentiate PO from the traditional MMO.
Now, all that having been said, things such as permanent gear loss and skill/level loss upon death are not enjoyable aspects of a game. I think the folks at GW2 actually put it best.
Defeat in Guild Wars 2 is intended to be an experience, not a punishment. Let's face it: dying never feels great, even without a death penalty....
Defeat is the penalty; we don't have to penalize you a second time.
Now I say all that to say this: I don't want PO to be a WoW clone. I also don't want a GW clone. I would HATE that. However, in order to succeed, it should borrow what works. It just makes sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now I say all that to say this: I don't want PO to be a WoW clone. I also don't want a GW clone. I would HATE that. However, in order to succeed, it should borrow what works. It just makes sense.
I'll agree. Success is currently based on borrowing what works. Borrowing what works has also led to what is currently a stagnant MMO market, where gameplay has remained largely the same over recent years. The biggest selling point of the 'Next Big Thing' in MMOs (SW:TOR) is the Star Wars universe itself, and the added storyline elements they've added. But that's another topic for another thread. Suffice it to say we've derailed this thread enough.
I don't think there's any consequences to griefing that will work in a game that sports Open PvP. At least, no consequence that will be enough to stop griefing. Griefing will happen regardless of anything put in place to stop it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there's any consequences to griefing that will work in a game that sports Open PvP. At least, no consequence that will be enough to stop griefing. Griefing will happen regardless of anything put in place to stop it.
Oh my goodness. We perfectly agree on something.
/angelic chorus
Hey, I'm not unreasonable. Just stubborn.
It's true. WoW did change the industry. If anything, it established the notion that an MMO could make a CRAP TON of money. Most people will agree that, as far as gaming is concerned, WoW... did basically nothing. With its simplistic gameplay and simplistic progression and customization systems, it's contribution to gaming as a game in its own right is pretty danged small, if not insignificant.
However, as you said, it pioneered the MMO industry of marketing and sales, and it is THIS that we have to look at; what SPECIFICALLY caused this, what are modern MMO's changing for the better, and what can PO do to succeed, while simultaneously making it stand out from the other MMO's on the market when it comes out in several YEARS (as you mentioned :P).
Not only is this hilariously untrue, people thinking this is exactly what leads to so many failed MMORPGs that tried to dethrone WoW.
WoW brought in a lot that was new. Not just in "simplistic gameplay" or "simplistic progression/customization."
Do you know what types of resource management existed before WoW? There was mana. That's it. Just mana. If your class had any abilities at all then you used mana. Otherwise you didn't have abilities. That's all there was to it.
Then WoW comes in with Energy and Rage and all this other stuff. Warriors have abilities, that wasn't around in Everquest, and they're not tied to mana and are genericly samey, that wasn't around in DAoC. Suddenly rogues actively play differently from other classes. There's actual class tactics behind which buttons you mash.
Do you know what customization in Everquest was? It was your gear and what you put stat points in. That's it. Oh sure, Shadows of Luclin gave extra abilities you could choose from, at level 51. But before that? Two warriors could be entirely identical, except one had three more points of strength and three less points of agility, and they had different gear. Overall? Miniscule customization at best.
Then WoW comes in with skill points. Suddenly you aren't just a warrior, you're an arms warrior. The other warrior is a protection warrior. You're different.
I could go on. But the fact is, not only did WoW bring new things into MMORPGs, they did it so successfully that these things are now thought of as a core part of the genre. These new things were so successful that people don't even realize WoW brought them in.
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I would argue, that it could be the strongest selling point of the title (besides the obvious draw of the amazing world of Golarion, & the River Kingdoms).
This is perhaps the biggest mark against PFO.
Ignoring the fact that only Pathfinder fans know what Golarion is, having the entire game take place in one unified vanilla area is the dumbest g+!&@$n decision you can make for an MMO. Especially in a fantasy game! The question is: What do the River Kingdoms have that you cannot get anywhere else? And it can't be minute details either, it has to be something that immidaitely pops out. There's a reason World of Warcraft takes place across the entire world, not just Westfall.
The question is: What do the River Kingdoms have that you cannot get anywhere else? And it can't be minute details either, it has to be something that immidaitely pops out.
Offhand? The fact that it is a perfect area for a SANDBOX MMO. One of the defining things about the River Kingdoms is the lack of political constancy. So if you want an MMO where players can carve out and create their own kingdoms, River Kingdoms is the best place.
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Not only is this hilariously untrue, people thinking this is exactly what leads to so many failed MMORPGs that tried to dethrone WoW.
WoW brought in a lot that was new. Not just in "simplistic gameplay" or "simplistic progression/customization."
Except that I wasn't talking solely about WoW's addition to just MMO's. I was talking about the overall addition to the gaming community, which frankly, IS small.
Games were creating in-depth character customization WAY before WoW came out. All WoW did was bring these changes to the MMO genre, which has always been lagging behind other genres. This is partly to do with the fact that designing a huge, persistent multiplayer world is IMMENSELY difficult, but also because people just have developed a REALLY low standard for MMO's.
Many people expect a certain level of engagement and action from video games, but are TOTALLY content with uninteresting, bland content from MMO's because it's what we've come to expect. In THAT way, WoW really changed absolutely nothing (unless you count the 5% of the content that's raid content).
The question is: What do the River Kingdoms have that you cannot get anywhere else? And it can't be minute details either, it has to be something that immidaitely pops out.Offhand? The fact that it is a perfect area for a SANDBOX MMO. One of the defining things about the River Kingdoms is the lack of political constancy. So if you want an MMO where players can carve out and create their own kingdoms, River Kingdoms is the best place.
That doesn't answer my question in the slightest. You could make that same claim about a lot of places. In fact, you could probably make that claim about any setting that has ever existed. In fact, I'm sure there's plenty of MMORPGs lying by the side of the road that made that very claim!
What about River Kingdoms makes it different, and I don't just mean from the rest of Golarion. What makes it something that non-Pathfinder fans should care about?
The question is: What do the River Kingdoms have that you cannot get anywhere else? And it can't be minute details either, it has to be something that immidaitely pops out.Offhand? The fact that it is a perfect area for a SANDBOX MMO. One of the defining things about the River Kingdoms is the lack of political constancy. So if you want an MMO where players can carve out and create their own kingdoms, River Kingdoms is the best place.That doesn't answer my question in the slightest. You could make that same claim about a lot of places. In fact, you could probably make that claim about any setting that has ever existed. In fact, I'm sure there's plenty of MMORPGs lying by the side of the road that made that very claim!
What about River Kingdoms makes it different, and I don't just mean from the rest of Golarion. What makes it something that non-Pathfinder fans should care about?
Ah. I misunderstood you. I thought you meant different, in Golarion.
But I think you are going the wrong direction with this. Really, you should ask - what is it about Golarion that makes it different? Once you answer that, you then ask, what part of Golarion makes for the best sandbox MMO?
Ah. I misunderstood you. I thought you meant different, in Golarion.
But I think you are going the wrong direction with this. Really, you should ask - what is it about Golarion that makes it different? Once you answer that, you then ask, what part of Golarion makes for the best sandbox MMO?
You're asking me? I don't have an answer. I'm hoping someone else does! And I do know about Golarion!
It was already announced that they plan on putting the entirety of the game in the River Kingdoms. So the question that every new player is going to ask is "What the heck is Golarion, what are the River Kingdoms, and why should I care?"
There's a lot of games out there. A lot. And there's a lot of MMORPGs out there. And a large chunk of them are fantasy MMORPGs, and each of them has their own setting. So what makes River Kingdoms something that new players should care about?
Senior Software Developer
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I think we can close this one up now since it's wandering far off topic, and Ryan's made a new thread.